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Manatee Cannon
Aug 26, 2010



I don't think Hector needs a nerf in the first place. I think nerfs are tackling a problem in the wrong way in this case, if anything the other axe units need a buff to keep up with Hector and Dart.

Krumbsthumbs posted:

Lyn doesn't really need a con boost, but if she got one she'd be able to use Killer weapons much more effectively.

She needs the con if she wants to ever use the Sol Katti. Though honestly, the best thing you could do for Lyn is to swap out her getting bows for the swordmaster crit boost. That fixes just about everything but her defense being low.

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Krumbsthumbs
Oct 23, 2010

2nd Place.
1st Loser.

Manatee Cannon posted:

I don't think Hector needs a nerf in the first place.


She needs the con if she wants to ever use the Sol Katti. Though honestly, the best thing you could do for Lyn is to swap out her getting bows for the swordmaster crit boost. That fixes just about everything but her defense being low.

gently caress that Sol Katti. The other two get stat boosts, the Sol Katti is a crappier Wyrm Slayer.

I'd give her a horse to make her great post promotion. She'd be like Sue from FE6, only with an actual strength growth. Nomad Lord!

Manatee Cannon
Aug 26, 2010



Except she'd still be an awful bow user because of how low her bow rank starts. Giving her a horse would make her better, but it wouldn't make using her bow any more viable.

Fionordequester
Dec 27, 2012

Actually, I respectfully disagree with you there. For as obviously flawed as this game is, there ARE a lot of really good things about it. The presentation and atmosphere, for example, are the most immediate things. No other Yu-Gi-Oh game goes out of the way to really make

Manatee Cannon posted:

She needs the con if she wants to ever use the Sol Katti. Though honestly, the best thing you could do for Lyn is to swap out her getting bows for the swordmaster crit boost. That fixes just about everything but her defense being low.

Actually, that's another thing I've been thinking about. What if all bows would have their range increased to being 2-3 Range instead of just 2 Range? That seems like it'd go a long way to solve the "archers being underpowered" problem, wouldn't it?

Cake Attack
Mar 26, 2010

rd flat out gave tier 3 snipers 3 range

that said, 3 range isn't really the important thing, although it's nice to have

archers should more or less have the ability to eviscerate basically any given unit in their range on the player phase. basically jamka in a game less horse centric

Tae
Oct 24, 2010

Hello? Can you hear me? ...Perhaps if I shout? AAAAAAAAAH!
I think the first, simple thing is to give archers enemy-specific bows. Anti-armor bows, anti-horse bows, etc.

Rosalie_A
Oct 30, 2011

Fionordequester posted:

Actually, that's another thing I've been thinking about. What if all bows would have their range increased to being 2-3 Range instead of just 2 Range? That seems like it'd go a long way to solve the "archers being underpowered" problem, wouldn't it?

No. The problem with archers is that no matter how good they are, they can kill one thing per turn on the player phase barring some rare positioning interactions. Every other combat fighter can take out one thing on player phase and also fight as many things in range on enemy phase. Let's say there's five enemies in range, all with one range weapons. The archer can kill one. The fighter, mercenary, or what have you, can kill all five. No amount of stats and range can compare to doing literally 20% of the work on every turn.

Nomad troopers, warriors, and Lyn also have these problems, but they at least can use a bow for the two or three times a game you want one and then go back to using actually good weapons.

This is also the problem clerics, priests, and troubadors have. For fourteen to nineteen levels, at 11-15 EXP a turn, so somewhere around a hundred and fifty turns in a game where you spend seven to fifteen a chapter in a game where there's twenty to twenty five chapters of work for your cleric...all this adds up into a unit that does nothing to actually help you kill things but is instead a liability. And unfortunately, it's not even a niche, because monks, mages, and shamans all promote into staff-wielding classes, so once they promote (which comes faster because they can enemy phase and get kills) then they can do the healing as well as fighting, and this doesn't even cost them anything, because as above, most combat happens on enemy phase, so spending your player phase to heal someone isn't a problem.

Basically, stuff is underpowered because counterattacking exists. Counterattacking is what makes javelins and handaxes better than bows. Counterattacking is what makes swords worse than axes and lances, and counterattacking is what makes healing classes an annoying necessity instead of a desired choice. In a roundabout way, counterattacking is what makes speed so important. After a certain point, speed halves the damage you take (disregarding evasion, which it of course also helps with), and after another certain point, speed doubles the damage you deal. Counterattacking being a thing means that avoiding that second strike makes speed a more important defensive stat than defense, and speed doubling your damage on everything attacking you makes speed a more important offensive stat than strength.

Fire Emblem balance is absolutely laughable, and there's not really any way to fix it, actually fix it, without tearing down the gameplay foundations from the very first game.

Fionordequester
Dec 27, 2012

Actually, I respectfully disagree with you there. For as obviously flawed as this game is, there ARE a lot of really good things about it. The presentation and atmosphere, for example, are the most immediate things. No other Yu-Gi-Oh game goes out of the way to really make
Hmm...what if bows just flat out had the ability to be 1-2 Range? And then Snipers would get 3 Range instead of being able to have access to a second weapon type, like mages would have? Also, one other thing I thought of...

Krumbsthumbs posted:

The strength growth boosts are a little high. I'd keep Lyn's growths the same, maybe a 5% boost to her strength and defense, but a bump to her starting stats might not be a bad idea. Eliwood is meant to be a little weak early, but he finishes strong. If anything I'd give him a little better speed growth and a better cap.

...The thing is though, Lord's kind of NEED to be good right off the bat, like Ike. Otherwise, they're messed up by their later promotion times, and it becomes frustrating to use them whenever they're forced onto a map. And Lyn especially is in deep trouble if she ever gets shorted on strength. At least, that's my reasoning.

Fionordequester fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Mar 12, 2015

Rosalie_A
Oct 30, 2011

Fionordequester posted:

Hmm...what if bows just flat out had the ability to be 1-2 Range? And then Snipers would get 3 Range instead of being able to have access to a second weapon type, like mages would have?

Now archers are occupying the exact same design space as magic using classes except they target a different defense and get extra damage on fliers. Magic classes which, by the way, are already the most cramped design space in the series, as you have five different types who all use the same mechanics; three of them are even functionally identical, and so are the other two to each other. To top it all off, they all promote into the same thing.

The hypothetical nu!archer promoting into 1-3 range is a good idea, though, as it differentiates them some.

Manatee Cannon
Aug 26, 2010



Going back to the Radiant games, the Doublebow was a 1-2 range bow if I'm remembering right. And obviously the longbow has always been 2-3 range, even discounting tier 3 shenanigans.

Also I think there were crossbows at some point in the series that had 1-2 range, but fixed damage? I may be confusing this series with something else though.

Cake Attack
Mar 26, 2010

yeah it was

RD is probably the best implementation of the archer design, or maybe 11/12 on the high difficulties

Logicblade
Aug 13, 2014

Festival with your real* little sister!
If Archers had some sort of overwatch function, that might balance them. Like if an enemy tries to enter and exit it's range, the archer takes a potshot at it and that attack can't be countered.

Cake Attack
Mar 26, 2010

i don't want to deal with that on the player phase

Bogart
Apr 12, 2010

by VideoGames

(and can't post for 28 days!)

Yeah, Crossbows and the archer ability to have some level of zone control worth a drat in Radiant Dawn made Shinon kind of a badass. I considered giving him one of the null-abilities so he could take on the final boss for a while. :v:

Fionordequester
Dec 27, 2012

Actually, I respectfully disagree with you there. For as obviously flawed as this game is, there ARE a lot of really good things about it. The presentation and atmosphere, for example, are the most immediate things. No other Yu-Gi-Oh game goes out of the way to really make

Trasson posted:

Now archers are occupying the exact same design space as magic using classes except they target a different defense and get extra damage on fliers.

So? Sounds good to me. What's the problem with that? I mean, they're still differentiated both by their targeting different defences, presumably having higher Con and Def than magicians, and also by the fact that they never have either WTD or WTA. And then also them getting more range rather than getting more magical options on promotion. That seems like enough to me :shrug:.

Manatee Cannon
Aug 26, 2010



Overwatch is a bad idea for Fire Emblem.

Melth
Feb 16, 2015

Victory and/or death!

Fionordequester posted:

So? Sounds good to me. What's the problem with that? I mean, they're still differentiated both by their targeting different defences, presumably having higher Con and Def than magicians, and also by the fact that they never have either WTD or WTA. And then also them getting more range rather than getting more magical options on promotion. That seems like enough to me :shrug:.

Archers would suck by that model. Essentially, an archer becomes a guy who is using a javelin (or like a shortspear or something for better bows) all the time. Javelins are good, but magic is better because nearly all enemies have sucky res. And being able to switch away from a javelin to use something that's range 1 with better stats is very nice from time to time because sometimes you don't want to counterattack.


Archers should have some kind of distinct or at least semi-distinct role. I'm inclined to say there should be some kind of weapon that's essentially a javelin for bows: worse stats but can hit 1-2. But most bows should be 2-3 with some special ones being 2-4 or the like. And archer stats -not bow stats, because loads of people can use bows- should be through the roof. That's more or less how I did things for my tabletop fire emblem adaptation and it worked pretty well. If a well leveled archer can hit people no one else can hit and kill people no one else can kill and can definitely avoid counterattacks from anything but an archer, then the archer can be a viable character even if they still can't usually counterattack.

Fionordequester
Dec 27, 2012

Actually, I respectfully disagree with you there. For as obviously flawed as this game is, there ARE a lot of really good things about it. The presentation and atmosphere, for example, are the most immediate things. No other Yu-Gi-Oh game goes out of the way to really make

Melth posted:

Archers should have some kind of distinct or at least semi-distinct role. I'm inclined to say there should be some kind of weapon that's essentially a javelin for bows: worse stats but can hit 1-2. But most bows should be 2-3 with some special ones being 2-4 or the like. And archer stats -not bow stats, because loads of people can use bows- should be through the roof. That's more or less how I did things for my tabletop fire emblem adaptation and it worked pretty well. If a well leveled archer can hit people no one else can hit and kill people no one else can kill and can definitely avoid counterattacks from anything but an archer, then the archer can be a viable character even if they still can't usually counterattack.

Ah, there we go! Nice idea Melth! I'm not sure that Archer stats should be through the roof, but perhaps they could have a critical bonus of 15 or 30? After all, bows actually ARE pretty powerful weapons in real life, so I could see a well-trained Sniper, with really good aim, being able to immediately drop people.

And, in addition, if we're going the "Javelin Bow" idea, it seems to me that bows in general should get an MT buff, as they are generally pretty weak. Perhaps an Iron Bow having an MT of 8-9 would work? Otherwise, a "Javelin Bow" would only have like, what, 5 MT?

Fionordequester fucked around with this message at 06:55 on Mar 12, 2015

Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.

Fionordequester posted:

Ah, there we go! Nice idea Melth! I'm not sure that Archer stats should be through the roof, but perhaps they could have a critical bonus of 15 or 30? After all, bows actually ARE pretty powerful weapons in real life, so I could see a well-trained Sniper, with really good aim, being able to immediately drop people.

And, in addition, if we're going the "Javelin Bow" idea, it seems to me that bows in general should get an MT buff, as they are generally pretty weak. Perhaps an Iron Bow having an MT of 8-9 would work? Otherwise, a "Javelin Bow" would only have like, what, 5 MT?

I've had good experiences with 2-3 bows 2-5 long bow and high statted Archers with 30 crit snipers. Here's the thing. Yes, those are all powerful buffs to a group of units that overshadows most other foot units. But here's the thing... they're STILL only killing 1 unit a turn. Meanwhile My cavalier has more movement and will kill like 7 a turn.

Here is my view on the player phase locked archers, you have 1 action, The enemy turn will be spent with nothing, so if you have 1 action. Make that action count.

By not giving the same benefit to Nomads (who have extra movement) and Warriors (Who would otherwise be better than archers) Archer/Sniper has its nieche as the eraser class, they can erase a dude from the map, or seriously wound them to the point it breaks a problem for you.

Also the S rank bow is 1-2. by which point you get it prepare to stomp all over the game.

It also makes Enemy archers a much larger threat.

Rosalie_A
Oct 30, 2011

Fionordequester posted:

So? Sounds good to me. What's the problem with that? I mean, they're still differentiated both by their targeting different defences, presumably having higher Con and Def than magicians, and also by the fact that they never have either WTD or WTA. And then also them getting more range rather than getting more magical options on promotion. That seems like enough to me :shrug:.


Trasson posted:

Magic classes which, by the way, are already the most cramped design space in the series, as you have five different types who all use the same mechanics; three of them are even functionally identical, and so are the other two to each other. To top it all off, they all promote into the same thing.

Magic classes are already way too similar to each other, especially in the early game. Adding in a fourth attacking mage (but with a slight difference!) does not do a drat thing to distinguish archers.

You have to realize, +10% here, -1 damage there, doesn't distinguish a character or class in Fire Emblem. Right now, archers have the problem of sucking. All right, you make them more similar to magic users, who also regularly attack at range. Now every archer needs to be stacked up to a magic users, except that magic users are generally better (Res is lower than Def on basically everything, the weapon triangle is a joke, and staves are useful always where the same can't be said for +1 range).

Let's take FE7. You have Wil and Rebecca for archers, and Rath for a nomad. No one says Rath sucks aside from join time, so we'll ignore him. Then, for magic users, we have Erk and Pent (mage/sage), Lucius (monk), Canas (shaman), Serra (cleric), and Priscilla (troubador). There's also three more we haven't met in the LP for all two of you who haven't played the game, but none of them matter because they join so late.

If you make Wil and Rebecca functionally equivalent to magic users, then all you get is a massive blob of seven 1-2 range attackers with very little differentiation. One of them has a higher crit rate, one of them can use Luna, one of them is on a horse, and two of them have bows. That's it for actual functional differences. The archers are better than they were before, but at the cost of making them boring. Nothing about any of that tells me that Wil and Rebecca are any better in a given situation than Erk, Lucius, or Canas. Nothing about that screams "wow, archers are really neat to use!".

Look at Cavaliers. There's five of them in this game and they all stand out from the crowd due to getting extra movement and rules, as well as an extra weapon type even over the other things that move far. For that matter, Pegasi and Wyverns even manage to be different in this game, and that's thanks to the massive stat differences even though they get the same movement and weapon types.

In fact, a lot of classes manage to differentiate themselves. Funny, so do archers. However, the best way to make archers good is to make them like an already good class, as you've stumbled upon. In that case, why even have a different class?

Actually, come to think of it, I think that's the best plan. Get rid of any exclusive bow using class and promotion. No more archers and snipers. Nomads maybe can stay, or maybe just give them swords as nomads already and add on something else on promotion. Warriors and Lyn are fine, FE9 Paladins, all that. Just all bow classes.

Fionordequester
Dec 27, 2012

Actually, I respectfully disagree with you there. For as obviously flawed as this game is, there ARE a lot of really good things about it. The presentation and atmosphere, for example, are the most immediate things. No other Yu-Gi-Oh game goes out of the way to really make

Onmi posted:

I've had good experiences with 2-3 bows 2-5 long bow and high statted Archers with 30 crit snipers. Here's the thing. Yes, those are all powerful buffs to a group of units that overshadows most other foot units. But here's the thing... they're STILL only killing 1 unit a turn. Meanwhile My cavalier has more movement and will kill like 7 a turn.

Here is my view on the player phase locked archers, you have 1 action, The enemy turn will be spent with nothing, so if you have 1 action. Make that action count.

By not giving the same benefit to Nomads (who have extra movement) and Warriors (Who would otherwise be better than archers) Archer/Sniper has its nieche as the eraser class, they can erase a dude from the map, or seriously wound them to the point it breaks a problem for you.

Also the S rank bow is 1-2. by which point you get it prepare to stomp all over the game.

It also makes Enemy archers a much larger threat.

Ah...hmm. Sounds to me like we'd need something like class skills then, like what we had with FE8. Perhaps archers would get a range boost then, that neither Nomads nor Warriors would get?

Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.

Fionordequester posted:

Ah...hmm. Sounds to me like we'd need something like class skills then, like what we had with FE8. Perhaps archers would get a range boost then, that neither Nomads nor Warriors would get?

Ah, Can has something like that for me, the problem is it only effects the player. Give it time.

Manatee Cannon
Aug 26, 2010



Force skills to be locked to certain classes and the gate Galeforce behind archer. Hell, if you really want them to be the best at player phase then you can also give them the +15% crit rate of swordmaster/berserker and give archers/snipers a higher strength cap. For real though, I think that the problem with archers is the design philosophy of Fire Emblem maps. It's been proven that they can be powerful under the right circumstances, but those are very rare. You'd need to deemphasize enemy phase first and foremost.

xxlicious
Feb 19, 2013
You know what archers really need? Area of effect attacks. That's something that Fire Emblem doesn't have, period, but opens up so much more room for interesting strategizing. I know that when I played Naruto: Konoha Senki (another GBA turn-based strategy title - somewhat similar to Fire Emblem but with much smaller maps and teams and character specific skills), one of the earliest weapons I crafted was the cross(?) shuriken that allowed characters to attack five spaces total, in a cross formation.

For archers in Fire Emblem, it'd be interesting to give them ballistae-range by default. So they can attack at any point within that ballista range, and have the attack be a spread of, say, 1-5 square, depending on bow type/class type. Like, you know how certain methods of archery allow you to ride in, shoot multiple arrows at a single target at high speed, and then ride out? Perhaps the "nomad" could have an astra-like ability as their class perk - you automatically get in a double attack, and your speed determines how many extra attacks you get on top of that. Then, there are other kinds of archery that involve raining down a torrent of arrows on a large group of enemies. Typically that's done by a group of archers, but hey, this is a JRPG. You could have a Houyi-like character who can shoot like nine arrows at once to target a group of enemies, but perhaps have that limited to being a single attack. Admittedly this would be more useful in something like FE4, where enemies come in tight formations, but still.

And then maybe a sniper class who can shoot through walls (for targeting those pesky staff and bolting users), negates terrain bonuses, and has better visibility in fog of war maps?

Dire Wombat
Oct 29, 2011

In this world, there is no truth. The truth is made later on and overwrites what comes before it. Real truth doesn't exist anywhere.
Archers are already decent on FE12 lunatic because enemies are so strong that you can't counterkill six a turn without dying. Also because anyone can reclass to Sniper and get good stats and C Bows right away. Basically, if enemies are tough enough to be individually threatening, there's a niche for 2-range attackers. Of course Awakening also has a Lunatic difficulty, but Archers suck in that one because magic users are just better and readily available. FE12 balanced mages by giving most of them very poor bases compared to Palla or Sirius as Snipers, so we're back to bow users needing better stats.

Keldulas
Mar 18, 2009

Dire Wombat posted:

Archers are already decent on FE12 lunatic because enemies are so strong that you can't counterkill six a turn without dying. Also because anyone can reclass to Sniper and get good stats and C Bows right away. Basically, if enemies are tough enough to be individually threatening, there's a niche for 2-range attackers. Of course Awakening also has a Lunatic difficulty, but Archers suck in that one because magic users are just better and readily available. FE12 balanced mages by giving most of them very poor bases compared to Palla or Sirius as Snipers, so we're back to bow users needing better stats.

I sort of disagree, on the basis that just because Virion kind of sucks doesn't mean that archers are hopeless. Bows are nifty because enemy pegasus knights WILL die to one, while being a bitch to kill with wind magic. Virion actually surprised me (well, the bows did) with that utility on some of the early levels. Hell, the stronger ones will just kill a wyvern anyways. One of my favourite things to do on a no-grind Lunatic run is to archer up Chrom. He can bow-knight on promotion to regain swords after, and it gives you a non-lovely archer earlier than you'd otherwise get it.

Manatee Cannon
Aug 26, 2010



Archers in Awakening are utterly worthless unless you buy and play Apotheosis.

Keldulas
Mar 18, 2009

Manatee Cannon posted:

Archers in Awakening are utterly worthless unless you buy and play Apotheosis.

You're listing an endgame map which expects you to have basically ground-out and tinkered an army of gods as the only example for archers being useful in Awakening?

If you do all the extra leveling that Awakening gives you, then yes, archers are worthless since you can kill everything with javelins/handaxes/spells at that point. But then you're not really playing the game at that stage since there's literally no thinking being done there.

To actually see differentiation in the weapons/classes, you have to look at the view of scarcity. I do Lunatic runs without any of the outrealms crap, no random husk battles, and only doing the paralogues that automatically unlock or that I unlock myself via the children system. And in those runs, I have done it without bow usage and with, and the one without is a LOT harder due to the fact that enemy pegasus/promoted versions stand a good chance of doubling your dudes, or avoiding being doubled at the very least. But they usually get one-shot by the proper bow.

Manatee Cannon
Aug 26, 2010



Yes, I am listing the post game map you'll never see unless you grind a long time as the singular example of archers being good in Awakening. This is because it is, on fact, the only point in FE13 where archers are good. This is due to the way that DLC is designed compared to the rest of the game, you won't be seeing enemy phase attacks much if you're playing it correctly. Whether you grind or not has nothing to do with it.

Keldulas
Mar 18, 2009
Actually, whether or not you grind is actually really important, because pegasus knights become a BITCH when you're not grinding. As stated before, they usually become fast enough to avoid being doubled by a lot of your units, so one-shotting them with a bow is both valuable and important. Also, dark fliers tend to have spells a lot, so yes you can set up counterkills with bows on them on enemy phase.

Besides, even if you completely ignore that point, there's Paralogue 17: Threat of Silence where none of the enemies attack you on enemy phase and they're all fliers. Try to tell me bows are worthless there.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

Keldulas posted:

Actually, whether or not you grind is actually really important, because pegasus knights become a BITCH when you're not grinding. As stated before, they usually become fast enough to avoid being doubled by a lot of your units, so one-shotting them with a bow is both valuable and important. Also, dark fliers tend to have spells a lot, so yes you can set up counterkills with bows on them on enemy phase.

Besides, even if you completely ignore that point, there's Paralogue 17: Threat of Silence where none of the enemies attack you on enemy phase and they're all fliers. Try to tell me bows are worthless there.

I don't disagree that Archers aren't useless on Awakening, but you've got some information wrong there. First off, Dark Fliers can and will just close into minimum range against Archers if they can.

In addition, the idea that enemies don't attack on Paralogue 17 is silly. I've always played that map by using a turtle formation and having the enemies suicide themselves onto my walls. If they can't get to their target, they're programmed to simply attack what's available instead.

Really though you can walk over most of Awakening once Tharja gets access to Nosferatus, it's just a matter of keeping everyone else alive.

The other issue with Archers in Awakening is that you get only two that join in that class (one of whom is pretty bad and the other joins way too late) and almost no reason to ever reclass into one.

Manatee Cannon
Aug 26, 2010



Bows are worthless there because you have mages which can do their job but much, much better. Wind magic is effective against flying units, plus it can attack at 1-2 range, plus they can heal, plus they can use different tomes for different situations. Or you could buy the 1-2 range melee weapons for your other units, as they are better for more than killing one flying unit per turn. The freedom to buy as many ranged melee weapons is pretty damning for the bow classes. And I'm like 99% sure that enemies will attack you on enemy phase, they just prioritize Tiki. If you're in the way then they will attack. Oh, and you can still use other effective weapons on them to do more damage off of your higher strength units.

It's not like archers are worthless or anything. They're 100% usable. But they are also inferior to every other option most of the time, which is the point.

Keldulas
Mar 18, 2009

Manatee Cannon posted:

Archers in Awakening are utterly worthless unless you buy and play Apotheosis.

If you're going to make a hilariously hyperbolic statement like that, then that's what I'll think your viewpoint is. It's also not uncommon to see people make sweeping statements like that about bows, and in most of the other games they'd be right (FE5, 6, 7, 8, 9). I just didn't agree with that in regards to Awakening. You retracted it in your last comment though, so whatever.

Yes, I'm aware that Dark Fliers will fly into your face and attack bow users in melee like any mage will. That's when you stand at their max movement/attack range so they have to attack from 2 squares. And yes, that's not always possible, but it's a tactical option that one-shots them, so never using it at all is dumb.

Paralogue 17 is admittedly a map where differing approaches vastly dictate what ends up being useful. I make semi-porous walls, where I block them off but still technically leave a path to Tiki. It buys time and they don't kill people because usually at that stage, most of my dudes aren't durable enough to survive a mass flier assault (again the no-grinding viewpoint in play there). Then I load my people down with Beast Killers, Wyrmslayers, bows, and wind magic so that they can all one-round or shot the fliers to keep it from being overwhelming.

I don't allow myself to buy Nosferatu in my runs, I did that once and stopped playing that run because it trivialized too many maps in the same way and made it boring.

I'll agree, the native bow users are terrible. If you have reasons to use bows in the first place, you'll find space to respec someone to use them. I already stated my reasons for using bows in Awakening so I'm not going to repeat myself.

Edit: Enemies don't attack you at all in Paralogue 17 as long as they can technically make a path to her, even if it'll take like 4 turns to do so to make an entire loop around your dudes.

Keldulas fucked around with this message at 09:23 on Mar 12, 2015

Dr. Buttass
Aug 12, 2013

AWFUL SOMETHING

Fionordequester posted:

Ah...hmm. Sounds to me like we'd need something like class skills then, like what we had with FE8. Perhaps archers would get a range boost then, that neither Nomads nor Warriors would get?

Fire Emblem archers move and act a lot like modern archers, it's kind of a function of the gameplay. But in olden times archers were supposed to be a lot more Robin Hood, agile and nimble and moving around a lot and making their bread and butter of things you and I might consider low-end trick shots today.

So, here is my idea for making archers competitive and different and maybe slightly useful: Dodge rolls. Or dodge flips. Visually they could be any loving number of things, I don't care, but mechanically what I mean is that when attacked by a melee class, archers (and maybe other classes when equipped with a bow, but only archers are specifically designed around it) move away into attack range if able (that is, not completely blocked off by units or impassable terrain) and then counterattack as though they'd been attacked by another bow user. Mechanically, this is a special case with a special move stat; archers get "anyplace where the enemy would be in range to be attacked, away from the enemy" and other bow users get "one, so tough luck if you're using that one special bow with the weird long range". During the fight it just goes, afterwards you get to retroactively decide where they dodged to; but, also, if they do dodge, you're obligated to move them, you can't opt to leave them where they were attacked. This stops them being such a helpless wad when attacked by a melee attacker, you can lead your enemy on a merry chase across the map if you should so desire and your hit rate cooperates, and it gives them something unique to strategize around which my limited experience with tactics in this game says is probably useful in some situations.

Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.

Dr. Buttass posted:

Fire Emblem archers move and act a lot like modern archers, it's kind of a function of the gameplay. But in olden times archers were supposed to be a lot more Robin Hood, agile and nimble and moving around a lot and making their bread and butter of things you and I might consider low-end trick shots today.

So, here is my idea for making archers competitive and different and maybe slightly useful: Dodge rolls. Or dodge flips. Visually they could be any loving number of things, I don't care, but mechanically what I mean is that when attacked by a melee class, archers (and maybe other classes when equipped with a bow, but only archers are specifically designed around it) move away into attack range if able (that is, not completely blocked off by units or impassable terrain) and then counterattack as though they'd been attacked by another bow user. Mechanically, this is a special case with a special move stat; archers get "anyplace where the enemy would be in range to be attacked, away from the enemy" and other bow users get "one, so tough luck if you're using that one special bow with the weird long range". During the fight it just goes, afterwards you get to retroactively decide where they dodged to; but, also, if they do dodge, you're obligated to move them, you can't opt to leave them where they were attacked. This stops them being such a helpless wad when attacked by a melee attacker, you can lead your enemy on a merry chase across the map if you should so desire and your hit rate cooperates, and it gives them something unique to strategize around which my limited experience with tactics in this game says is probably useful in some situations.


You really can't post this with without the Lars video you know

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk

Melth
Feb 16, 2015

Victory and/or death!

ApplesandOranges posted:

I don't disagree that Archers aren't useless on Awakening, but you've got some information wrong there.

Double negative! Triple negative! ULTRA NEGATIVE!

quote:

Archers in Awakening

I haven't played any DLC so I can't comment upon them, but I HAVE beaten Awakening on Lunatic+ with no grinding and no paralogues whatsoever and I would say that archers were pretty much worthless all the way though. Could you find uses for them if you worked at it? Yes. But mages or people with javelins or the like could do the same job better. Even more so than in most other games because there were so many more ways to kick rear end on the enemy turn if you weren't an archer.

Awakening was a completely broken game balance wise, even for FE. And the changes made were really unhelpful to archers. The best way to do a 0 grinding max difficulty run in my experience was to mass flyers and dark knights and have each of them wear someone who gave + Def and Speed like a pair of pants.

At no point did I ever think "Man, I wish I had an archer." The problem is that archers are not, in fact, particularly good against air units. Yes, you can kill 1 air unit on your turn. So can anyone else worth using. But air units are better than any other units at then flooding in and murdering you on their turn and archers don't have the stats or weapons to defend themselves from that onslaught. Yes, if they have a ranged weapon you can SOMETIMES just wait on the edge of their range. But that's only in the rare case where 1) your archer can take the hit(s) 2) the enemy has a 1-2 range weapon and is a flyer to begin with 3) You can actually get to just the edge of the range of a person with vastly superior movement 4) nothing else is waiting to kill you in that square 5) no one else could do the same job better by, say, running to a square with actual good terrain with a 1-2 range weapon equipped or just blitzkrieging the air units with your own air force on your own turn.

Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.

Melth posted:

Double negative! Triple negative! ULTRA NEGATIVE!


I haven't played any DLC so I can't comment upon them, but I HAVE beaten Awakening on Lunatic+ with no grinding and no paralogues whatsoever and I would say that archers were pretty much worthless all the way though. Could you find uses for them if you worked at it? Yes. But mages or people with javelins or the like could do the same job better. Even more so than in most other games because there were so many more ways to kick rear end on the enemy turn if you weren't an archer.

Awakening was a completely broken game balance wise, even for FE. And the changes made were really unhelpful to archers. The best way to do a 0 grinding max difficulty run in my experience was to mass flyers and dark knights and have each of them wear someone who gave + Def and Speed like a pair of pants.

At no point did I ever think "Man, I wish I had an archer." The problem is that archers are not, in fact, particularly good against air units. Yes, you can kill 1 air unit on your turn. So can anyone else worth using. But air units are better than any other units at then flooding in and murdering you on their turn and archers don't have the stats or weapons to defend themselves from that onslaught. Yes, if they have a ranged weapon you can SOMETIMES just wait on the edge of their range. But that's only in the rare case where 1) your archer can take the hit(s) 2) the enemy has a 1-2 range weapon and is a flyer to begin with 3) You can actually get to just the edge of the range of a person with vastly superior movement 4) nothing else is waiting to kill you in that square 5) no one else could do the same job better by, say, running to a square with actual good terrain with a 1-2 range weapon equipped or just blitzkrieging the air units with your own air force on your own turn.

Note that the best games to be an archer (And we are defining that as 'Being of the Archer/Sniper class' not 'a bow user') in are 2 (Where they have 1-3 range normally and 1-5 when equipped with a bow) 4 (The AI tends to attack at range if they can, See: Brigid's joining chapter), 6 (Igrene and Klein do very well against the Dracoknight hordes, Keep in mind, this doesn't exclude them being horribly outdone by Aircalibur mages and anyone with an axe, just that it's better to be an archer there than say... 5), 10 (For Marksmen 1-3 range, Shinons superior stats, crossbows etc.) 11 and 12 Lunatic + (Modes that empahsis the player phase and lack of counter attacks, also 1-2 weapons are nerfed into oblivion, also archers are more defensive)

Now note that of them, 2 ignores the lack of melee range, 4 has the enemies preprogramed to attack at range, 6 still has them inferior, 10 requires them to get to tier-3 but a Crossbow at least alleviates their propblems. and 11 and 12 only have it on the highest, hardest most bullshit mode in the game.

This does not address the Archers biggest problems either. Warriors and Horsemen exist. who not only pack bows with all the advantages, but also melee weapons, and in the Horsemans case better movement.

The archer, along with the Armor Knight, showcases why IntSys are stupid about class balance to this day.

ungulateman
Apr 18, 2012

pretentious fuckwit who isn't half as literate or insightful or clever as he thinks he is
Ugh, I'd forgotten that I independently thought of the 'archers automatically disengage from melee when attacked (with limitations)' idea. It just completely slipped my mind until you posted it.

I think it'd have to be a once-per-turn thing or otherwise it defeats the purpose of not being able to counter-attack. Making them disengage in a straight line if possible, and not moving if there's no valid square to move to, lets you set up moves against enemy archers - sending a cavalier around behind to push the archer in range of a foot unit, for example.

Melth
Feb 16, 2015

Victory and/or death!


Perhaps the most secret sidequest available on Eliwoodís story, this is the second ďKishunaĒ level. Itís VERY different on HHM. It doesnít advance the plot much, but it sets up for 32x down the line.

Chapter Summary:
In a truly remarkable blunder, the whole party of like 40 people -some of whom can fly- stumble one by one into some concealed pit traps and wind up in a strange underground complex where they are ambushed by mysterious enemies.
After that side battle ends, they meet the legendary Archsage Athos and confer with him about how to defeat Nergal. He gives them a plan and then teleports them all back to Pherae with the instructions to head east and locate the hidden Shrine of Seals somewhere in Bern.




But first a flashback. Kishuna, the magic seal, remembers his own creation and naming by Nergal.




The only one at this time, that is. Kishuna is one of his early creations.




Yet another peculiar reference to multiple gods when the Elimine church seems to recognize only one. Conceivably these gods include Ninis, Fila, Thor, and Set.




Nergal is immortal, more powerful than anyone else on the continent, and can create life. Yet curiously, he never calls himself a god or even godlike directly. One begins to wonder if Nergal might be religious and unwilling to blaspheme. As a truly ancient practitioner of elder magic, perhaps heís still a true believer of one of the old religions of Elibe.

Another interesting facet of this conversation is that it shows that Athos and Renault are, to some extent, wrong about Nergalís character as well as ignorant about his background. At this point, Nergal actually seems to have some genuine interest in his morphs as something other than tools. Weíll see the huge change in him from Kishunaís perspective later, but we never find out just what it was that caused that.




Actually, that place looks pretty cool to me. But I guess weíll have to take Pentís word for it. Hm, wait. He described that horrible, blinding sandstorm as beautiful weather. Yeah nevermind, Pent pretty clearly just has bizarre taste.




They can feel the unsettling and unnatural presence of the magic seal and Hector relates the story of the strange being they fought on Valor. Everyone is still confused about how and why this giant underground lair was kept secret.




And they decide to just kill Kishuna and his minions in hopes that will let them find a way out.


The War Room, Part 25

Since this is the first chapter with masses of promoted enemies and Iím getting into the part of the game where maintaining a proper XP ranking requires more than just not using Marcus, itís a good time to talk about how experience gained is calculated.

http://serenesforest.net/blazing-sword/miscellaneous/calculations/

That page has all the details, but the formulae are somewhat complex and itís not immediately obvious what they mean for proper strategy. Iíll try to explain them and their strategic implications:

Letís start with a really simple case like 2 fighters. Letís call them Dorcas and Target. First off, if Dorcas inflicts no damage for ANY reason, he just gets 1 XP. No matter what.

Assuming Dorcas damages Target but doesnít kill him, he gains 31/3 XP + 1/3 XP per level by which Target level exceeds his. Round down. So if theyíre the same level, he gets the familiar10 XP. If Target is 2 levels higher, Dorcas will instead gain 11. If Dorcas is 2 levels higher, heíll gain 9. If Target is 5 levels higher, Dorcas will gain 12 XP, etc. As you can see, it takes a fairly significant level difference to impact the XP for damaging the enemy much.

Being promoted counts as being TWENTY levels higher for this purpose. Thatís significant. If Dorcas is a level 10/1 warrior and Target is a level 10 fighter, Dorcas only gains 6 XP compared to 10 if you didnít promote him. Note that this means that promoting at level 20 is a smooth transition- you go from effective level 20 to effective level 21. Promoting at level 10 causes an immediate major drop in XP gain. So when you promote early you donít only miss out on possible stat gains forever, you also miss out on some relatively easy to acquire level ups and skip straight to the hard ones.

Weíve only been talking about XP for damaging so far. What happens if Dorcas kills Target?

First of all, he gains the XP from doing damage. Second, he might gain some more XP depending on their relative levels and whether theyíre promoted and such (with +20 being normal). Assuming theyíre both equal level fighters, the somewhat misnamed ďExperience from defeating (base)Ē will be 0, so heíll gain a total of 30 experience.

If Target is a level higher than Dorcas, Dorcas gains THREE more XP in addition to the 1/3 more from before. So 33. If Target is 2 levels higher, he gains 37. And so on. So low level units tend to gain XP very quickly. Next chapter I might have Lucius level 5 fight some level 10 wyverns. If he hits one heíll gain 12 XP. If he kills one heíll gain 57. Sweet!

What if Dorcas is higher level though? Well if itís hard mode, it works exactly as youíd expect: every level he exceeds the targetís by is minus 10/3 XP roughly. In normal mode you get a much smaller penalty- and sometimes actually even a bonus. This is hard mode though, so I won't go into the details.

What happens if one is promoted? Essentially, it counts like the person is 20 levels higher once again. On this chapter, what happens if my level 17 Eliwood kills a level 5 enemy druid? Well he gains 13 XP for doing damage and then 24 for XP from defeating (base) +20 = 57 XP. Awesome.

Youíve probably noticed that bosses give more XP. The exact amount is +40 for killing them, but thereís no benefit from just damaging them. Notably, that 40 can be eaten away by being higher level than them.

So the basic XP system for hard mode is:
XP for doing damage = 31/3 + (enemy level Ė own level)/3
XP for getting a kill = [20 + 3*(enemy level Ė own level) , minimum 0] + XP for doing damage
XP for a boss kill = [60 + 3*(enemy level Ė own level) , minimum 0] + XP for doing damage

Always round down, XP gain never exceeds 100, and being promoted is being 20 levels higher.

So how much does it help to use a level 5 character instead of a level 10 one? Well basically you get +17 XP per kill. If that unit gets 5 kills, you basically earned a total of 100 more XP. Thatís no small amount, though this benefit is decreased slightly by the fact that earning XP faster means you level up faster at which point your bonus decreases.

Using a level 10 unpromoted character instead of a level 1 promoted character is +37 XP per kill, so you should definitely try to cycle your promoted characters out and train some unpromoted people instead.

A few interesting implications:
1. Being high level basically does not hurt your XP gain for doing damage much, but is crippling for kill XP. Being low level basically does not help your XP gain for doing damage much, but gives you huge bonuses to kill XP.
2. Order of attacks matters. Letís imagine you have level 12 Dorcas and level 8 Bartre fighting level 10 Target. Each can hit him once and heíll die in 2 attacks. If Bartre damages and Dorcas kills, then Bartre gains 11 and Dorcas gains 23. Total = 34. If Dorcas damages and Bartre kills then Dorcas gains 9 and Bartre gains 37. Total = 46. So you gain 12 more total XP just by switching the order the same people attack. The profit from having the lower level guy get the kill is 3*(high level guy level Ė low level guy level).
3. 1 and 2 suggest that itís going to be better to bring, say, Isadora the paladin level 1 and have her feed kills to Lucius the level 3 monk than it is to bring Bartre and Dorcas both level 10 and just have them fight however they want, even though the total level of Isadora and Lucius is higher (24 vs 20). The caveat is that if Isadora ends up getting kills, you get hurt badly. And on the enemy turn, people might suicidally attack her. Youíve got to avoid that.
4. The penalty for being high level basically stops increasing after a while. Level 19 Dorcas killing level 1 Target gets 4 XP. Level 10 Dorcas gets 7. Thatís actually a rather small difference. So itís not actually that bad to use very overleveled people compared to moderately overleveled people.
5. But max level people waste LOTS of XP. Level 20 Dorcas killing level 1 target instantly drops from 4 to 0 compared to level 19. And if the target was also level 19, the XP wasted is a horribly high 30 or so. NEVER use a level 20 person you donít have to. If a character hits max level, either promote them or bench them forever. Corollary: donít let people you want to use in the lategame hit level 20 early.
6. Youíre wasting XP if you kill a unit thatís more than about 20 levels over you. For bosses itís if theyíre more than about 7 levels over than you. So feed bosses to your higher level people.

Now youíll notice that I made a point of talking about fighters earlier. Thatís because a select few Ďweakí classes actually gain or grant XP differently. Letís talk about gaining first. Among unpromoted classes, only thieves are affected.

Your thieves actually gain 15.5 or so XP for damaging a normal enemy of the same level, +1/2 instead of 1/3 for every level by which the enemy level exceeds yours. So 50% more XP for damaging enemies than fighters or other people of the same level would gain.

What about kill XP for your thieves? Essentially, they gain a bonus equal to their level relative to your normal classes (on top of the doing damage XP increase). So level 10 Dorcas killing level 10 fighter Target gains 30 XP, but level 10 Matthew killing the same guy would gain a total of 45. If theyíre both level 1 killing a level 1 Target then Dorcas gets 30 and Matthew gets 36. So the higher level they get, the more thieves benefit from kills relative to your other classes really. The same principle even applies when theyíre promoted. A level 1 assassin Matthew killing a level 1 warrior Target gets 56 XP, while level 1 warrior Dorcas would get 30.

Clerics and troubadours get the same effective bonuses, but of course they canít actually attack till theyíre promoted.

Conversely, enemy clerics and troubadours essentially give you a penalty to your XP gained equal to their level compared to what youíd get from a target of the same level from a normal class.

Enemy thieves are a little bit different. They do have that same XP penalty equal to their level, but this is entirely or partly made up for by a flat 20 bonus for killing them- kind of like a boss bonus. So killing a level 1 thief is worth a lot more than killing a level 1 fighter, but killing a level 20 thief is the same as killing a level 20 fighter.

Now if you havenít thought this through fully, you might be wondering whether a level 10/1 Priscilla gains more or less XP than a level 11 or so Lucius or something. In other words, do troubadour/cleric bonuses outweigh promotion penalties? Not at all. Suppose they each killed a level 11 fighter Target. Lucius would gain 30 XP. Priscilla would gain 21. Of course, a 10/1 Lucius would gain a measly 7. So thereís no XP bonanza to be reaped by promoting Priscilla or Serra early and using them instead of a real unit.

So further implications and final thoughts:

7. Matthew and Legault are good for your XP score, so let them do some fighting and get some levels- thatís good for letting them steal anyway.
8. Since Priscilla and Serra canít actually enjoy their fighting XP boosts till they promote- at which point the promotion penalties kind of outweigh them- you shouldnít try to promote them to boost your XP ranking.
9. You SHOULD however use their staves whenever you have the chance. Staff use and dancing both essentially create XP out of thin air. Do as much of both as you can. Heal is the most cost-effective way to create XP.


Battle Preparations & the Map:




Donít panic. Deep breaths.

Ok, these are without a doubt the nastiest enemy units faced to date. Every single person here is a promoted level 5 unit with HHM bonuses. This makes them roughly equivalent to hypothetical level 30 unpromoted normal mode enemies or level 25 unpromoted HHM enemies. Most people Iíve been fighting have been level 10. Essentially, every single enemy is roughly equivalent to a recent boss. Slightly weaker.

Theyíre also geared up VERY well. No sage has less than Elfire, the druids are packing a mix of nosferatu and luna(!) and the bishops have mixed shine and divine (a hitherto unseen C level light spell). But thatís not a problem. See, the boss comparison is a pretty good one in that each one is basically locked in a cell on his own. And they donít use their door keys or break walls under any circumstances. You only need to fight 1-2 at once and have all the time you need to heal between them at first glance. No, thereís a much bigger problem:













And worst of allÖ




This guy is the real boss of the level. Fortunately he fights stupidly as you'll see.

If the enemies could all fight, you would lose on turn 1. Thereíd be no way around it. They would just walk up from behind their protective walls and 2-hit kill your level 20 Hector from across the map while also berserking, sleeping, or silencing half your team.

Thankfully, they have Kishuna on their side, incapacitating 75% of his own team at any given time. And the doors and cracked walls constrain most of everyone anyway. The remaining 25% are a threat only because Kishuna moves around cleverly to shift the anti-magic zone to his own benefit. The big problem is itís not necessarily predictable where heíll go, so itís hard to plan ahead.

And thereís another problem: Kishuna leaves at the end of turn 4 and all the doors and walls that have been keeping the enemy in check will disappear at once. Instantly, 100% of the enemy force is fully mobile and no longer silenced. After that the enemy has free rein and you WILL lose if you havenít used those turns to take out the most problematic enemies.

One catastrophe waiting to happen is that you have at most 1 Restore staff (if you didnít get the restore staff on chapter 21 you lose, but you deserve it). This means that if your Restorer is ever silenced, sleeped, or berserked, you are pretty much out of luck. Donít let that happen. Now youíll notice that your starting forces look close together but are actually very far apart. Youíll need to open many doors and break many walls and just move a long way to reunite your split party. And thereís no time for that. That means one group is completely without a restore staff.

But look closely. ALL the status-inflicting enemies are actually on the bottom right area and they canít attack the left group of people unless you either deliberately move the left people into range or Kishuna leaves and the door to his rooms open. So put the restore staff in the right group and take out all but maybe 1-2 of the problem enemies in 5 turns or you lose. Sounds like my kind of level.



Objective: Kill all enemies
Secondary Objective: Get the Silver Blade from the bottom left chest
Secondary Objective: Get the Secret Book from the middle chest
Secondary Objective: Get the Berserk Staff from the bottom right chest
Secondary Objective: Attack Kishuna on turn 4 or before, causing him to flee early but spawning a group of reinforcements with droppable treasure. Also for honor and glory.
Reinforcements: Starting on turn 6 and going till turn 10 1 mage will spawn from the top left stairs and 1 shaman from the top right ones. These guys arenít really a threat at all, but they do delay your victory. More significantly, if you attack Kishuna then he will flee immediately. All doors and cracked walls will open, the 4 promoted weapon users in his room will flee, and 4 weak magic users will pop up with extremely valuable droppable goods.
Turn Limit: 25. Heck yeah! Thereís basically no way to take this long. You either lose by turn 6 or you can win by 10 or 11. So thatís a ton of free turns to boost my surplus.
Units Allowed: 6 + Hector + Hawkeye. Heck no! This is terrible. The right group is loaded up with the max leveled and therefore unusable Hector and the terrible Hawkeye and it MUST have a C level staff user. That leaves only a single fighting unit and no thieves. If you didnít buy or steal chest keys like I did, you either set up an epic rescue chain around turn 12 or so (and still pay a heavy price) or you skip some of the treasure. The left group is much more flexible, but itís the group that has the easiest fight on its hands! Given the harsh time limit before Kishuna leaves, you can't afford to join them up either.
Units Brought:
1) Hector. Required but useless. Heís max level so anything I kill with him is XP forever lost. Heís not very good against mages anyway, but he could still hold his own on this map due to my Hectorís decent speed if it werenít for that. An average Hector would be completely useless here.
2) Hawkeye. Required and terrible. He gains almost no XP and sucks at everything, but I can only have 1 other fighting unit for the right team, so heís going to have to do some work.
3) Priscilla. Marginally tougher than Serra and she has a better staff rank and more magic power. This makes her better at using the Physic staff- I bought 2 of them from the secrets tore remember- which is expensive but worth it if it saves your bacon. Really Priscilla is terrible here- almost everything can instant kill her at massive range- so sheíll require careful babysitting, but thereís nothing you can really do but bring her.
4) Eliwood. I MUST level up at least 1 lord at least 1 time this chapter. And Eliwood actually has enough speed and str that with a good sword he can kill anything on this level in 1 round. His support with Hector doesnít hurt either since the close quarters means theyíll actually wind up sticking together.
5) Canas. The left front needs a healer who can kill anything. Exactly one person matches that description.
6) Raven. This is a great level for training him since so many of these promoted enemies end up just being free food. I really want to make him a Hero soon, plus I want more XP for him to unlock Jermeís chapter, so heís going to do most of the left group fighting.
7) Florina. I considered Fiora, but Florina is very close to level 20 and I hope to promote her on this chapter. Sheís the only one of my flyers with an A in lances, so only she can equip the Silver Lance (which will be needed to 1-round kill some people on this level). Also, I need someone who can hit Kishuna if he goes left. Canas and Raven canít do that, but Florina can with a javelin. Good enough.
8) Ninian. Always the best way to train people. Also great for helping people efficiently tear down walls and open doors. And she functions in Kishunaís anti-magic zone.
Notable Units Rejected:
1) Legault and Matthew. Theyíd be instant killed by a bolting or purge. But thereís a bigger problem than that even: there is NO space for one of them on the right team, and thatís where most of the treasure is. Meanwhile thereís another chest on the left. I could bring one of them on the left team and just not ever let them near the fighting, but that would be useless and would not open the chests fast enough because theyíre so far flung. I canít possibly have a big enough rescue chain to do that in less than like 10 turns with 1 thief. And I canít bring 2. No, itís chest keys or nothing really.
2) Serra. Like Priscilla, she can be instant killed by bolting. Unlike Priscilla, sheís slow and has like 2 magic power and only C rank in staves so she canít even use Bolting.
3) Lucius & Erk. Anti-magic fields everywhere! And they canít heal! And they canít scratch these druids and sages and bishops! Canas is hampered by the field too, but he can heal and when the field is off him he can kill anything with his Luna. To be perfectly honest, I think the best imaginable approach to this level actually requires a promoted Lucius. THAT would solve the right frontís problems. But Canas is better than him on every other chapter. Itís only here that you desperately need promoted Luciusís starting C in staves because Priscilla and Serra are instant-killable.
4) Sain. Sain would be nice, but he wouldnít actually solve any problems. The thing is that 60% of the time, your enemies canít even fight back on this chapter. Theyíre just free XP. And Sain would get cruddy XP from them while everyone else will get like 70 per kill. This chapter is a GREAT time to train low level people, so for goodness sake donít bring people like Marcus or Sain. The other thing is that Sain is bad vs magic users and totally vulnerable to berserk and sleep and so on.
5) Fiora. Too slow, canít double things that Florina can, and only has a B in lances so she canít use the Silver Lance. I donít have any time to waste; every enemy must be killed in 1 attack.
6) Lyn. Canít kill things well enough, canít take a hit, doesnít have support bonuses. Sheís just worse than Eliwood.
7) Heath. I could indeed have used him over Florina or instead of Eliwood or Raven and I did consider it. But I need Eliwood trained right now. Florinaís high magic resistance makes her more appealing here. Heath vs Raven was a serious choice, but ultimately Heath is easy to train elsewhere while Raven is not.

Gear is everything here. Iím not bringing thieves, so I need chest keys. Fortunately I bought or stole all I would ever need. Unfortunately, I have NO door keys. This is because on Chapter 21 I wanted to buy some but had no time. Donít let this happen to you. Buy like 8 door keys on Noble Lady of Caelin if you have to.

Because Ninian has many spare inventory slots (even with Filaís Might in addition to Ninisís Grace now), she got the chest key for the left group.

Because heís more mobile than Hector but I donít want him fighting much, Hawkeye got the chest keys for the right group. Be prepared to trade these as the situation on the ground requires.

My Canas has Heal, Luna, andÖ thatís about it. My Flux has 1 charge left. Donít let this happen to you. Buy an extra 1 on 21. I got greedy and tried to save my money for when I could silver card it, hoping to save 450 gold. Now Iíve spent like 1000 using the much more expensive Luna instead.

Priscilla must have the Unlock staff because I donít have any door keys. She also has Physic, which is incredibly valuable on this chapter. It lets you heal people who are in the anti-magic zone as long as youíre outside it. And it lets you heal without going into range of Bolting and the like. She has Mend for heavy duty healing and no Heal because I have no inventory space. Restore is an absolute must too of course. And finally she has Pure Water. Only that will let her survive a single hit from Bolting.

Everyone is packing serious heat. Eliwood has an iron sword, a steel sword, and the silver sword. He needs firepower to 1-round some of these uber promoted units. Raven has iron, steel, and the killing edge. His higher Str means he doessnít need the silver sword as much and he benefits from crits more. Florina has an iron lance, a javelin, and a silver lance. Hector gets a steel lance so that he can be slowed down enough to not double things. Hawkeye keeps his killer axe and also gets a handaxe of his own.

And of course they all have vulneraries. THOSE work in the anti-magic field.




You might have noticed that there was a wall there on the map picture but not on the formation one. Yeah. Itís a nasty surprise when it randomly pops up at the start of turn 1. If you didnít know that was coming, you should just restart and come up with a new strategy.


The Characters:

ďNow witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational bolting tome!Ē ĖKishuna, Chapter 23x

Actually, thereís no one new. Kishuna is a repeat boss only you donít even actually fight him this time. Just try to hit him once so he can spawn his treasure carrying reinforcements before he leaves.

Pent is here but refuses to do anything to help for reasons unknown. What a twerp.


Playing Through:




Priscilla drinks the pure water while Hector tears down the wall.




Again Florina and Raven break the wall.




Wow, thatís even worse than before. How did that happen? The RNGs should have been the same.




Well this is the same.




And so is that.




You can see that Kishuna is darned smart. He moved just enough to let that sage cast without shifting so far left that more people on the left front canít cast. Well anyway, NOW itís door opening time.




Thatís a pretty great level for opening a door. My Priscilla is actually slightly above average. Still worthless.




Another team up wall-break to let Raven charge through and kill someone. Meanwhile Canas canít escape the field this turn.




Sweet! That makes up for the awful level last time.




This is the reason I couldnít leave that guy alone. I need a door key for that nearby door.




This guy has a door key too. Eliwood is already busy, so Hawkeye has to do it.







Thatís the range on Sleep currently. But thereís a problem. See, Kishuna will move FIRST. Which would let the sleep sage move up further. Thereís really no way to predict ranges well on this chapter because of that. Anyway, I only need to keep Priscilla out of range. This square will work.




Convenient! I could have just restored him as Kishuna moved away, but not having to do that is very helpful.




Stupid level 30 enemies and their actually decent speed. See, if this guy wasnít in the anti-magic field, heíd have his heavy Elfire tome equipped and THAT would let her double him. With the silver lance sheíd easily kill him.




Kishuna is heading this way to give the sleep and silence sages free rein on the right front, so I can count on these nearby guys to stay silenced. Probably. If he DOES move, then I want people who can fight back next to that wall.




Sweet. Another thing I donít need to heal.




Well that level is pretty meh, but Eliwood has had some lucky dodges so far so that about balances out.




Silence staff range. This guy is public enemy number 3 and heís right next to number 2, the sleep staff guy. That darned bishop with purge and berserk will be much harder to kill.




Yeah. Thereís like 3 guys with Eclipse. I didnít even mention them because Eclipse is no threat.




Purge on the other hand...
Kishuna moved to let that bishop get free and to lock Canas into the anti-magic field.




So itís now turn 4. Iíve killed both Bolting sages. That leaves 2 purge bishops (one with Berserk), and 1 sleep sage and 1 silence sage. I think I can take care of all but one of those this turn. And this is my last chance to hit Kishuna and get some myself some more treasure, so Iím going for it. Even if I miss it works, so thatís no problem.




His promoted units nearby teleport out. Thatís an XP loss, but itís more than made up for by the massive treasure gain. Especially since I donít think Eliwood could have handled those guys anyway.




And all the doors and walls open from top to bottom.




And his reinforcements pop up. They each drop a good item. Total value of 7550 I believe, quite nice.

Alright, Kishuna and all the barriers preventing the enemy from blasting me on all sides are gone. Iíve got 1 turn to secure victory. Letís go! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAYhNHhxN0A




That was unexpected. Raven has been using his killing edge a lot, so this is his 3rd crit of the map.




Darn it, man!




Ö Uh. Well 1 purger down. That leaves 3 targets.




Now THEREís a level. So 2 bad ones and 2 good ones so far. Iíll take it.




Florina is in position to harvest all those droppable treasures. Canas moves to keep this unimportant bishop occupied and then prepare to help the right flank if possible. In his current position, the Berserk staff guy can hit him. I want him to try since Canasís huge res makes it unlikely to work. Plus Canas can survive the enemy and my guys can outrun him.




Hawkeye kills the silence sage.




Ugh.




So the problem is that if Eliwood attacked that Sage right now, the counterattack would badly injure him. Then that jerk bishop could purge him to death. But the safe will choose to use Sleep on someone on its turn. That gives me a chance to have Hawkeye or Hector weapon it for Eliwood or Hawkeye to finish safely next turn.




Canas gets not a single Luna crit this whole level.




I expected a purge. Uh oh. Iím in range to fix this, but that means putting Priscilla in future Purge range.




Yeah, Iím never gonna get tired of Canas healing people.




The left flank is almost entirely clear. I just need someone to get the bottom chest, and that should probably be Raven while Florina and Canas go help elsewhere.




She dances for Canas and gets even more avoid.




Florina kills the guy who survived Canas and is ready to kill those guys with the valuable drops. Last turn she double missed the mage which is why theyíre still alive.




Yeah the bottom right is in trouble. That Bishop is the only major threat left on the level, but he can kill Priscilla and time he wants with Purge. And I canít do a darned thing about it because he ran out of range and because if I run Priscilla away I canít cure Eliwoodís berserk. Which will mean he dies to that druid or sage if he doesnít just kill Hawkeye or something. Thereí no way I can win at this point unless the Bishop just decides heíd rather use Berserk than purge again.




Hawkeye moves to block the door.




Having Priscilla need to stay out of range and Restore people meant a lot of people couldnít be healed.




Florina gets Nosferatu.




And a lousy level.




And Shine.




Well. Thatís bad, but Iíll take it. Thatís preferable to Priscilla just being dead. Florina is in good health so she can survive a few hits and sheís not near anything dangerous. Mostly this is just going to slow me down, not make me lose.




Eliwood breaks out the silver sword to ensure this guy doesnít get a chance to respond.




A sweet level up.




You can see weíre down to just a few enemies and only that bishop is a threat. But what a threat he is. Priscilla is now safely out of his reach, but he could still case me major problems with Purge or another lucky Berserk. Thereís really no good way to beat this guy. He has too many options and thereís no way to get him in range unless he just decides to move there.




Reinforcements have started. Theyíre no threat except maybe to Florina in groups because sheís attack them with stupid weapons and not heal herself.




Yes! Not only did he finally miss for once, but he ran into range to do that! Now is my only chance!




But first, Raven gets the treasure.




Well he skipped all the good stats, but itís still a solid level. It took me like 20 enemies to level him up a single time on previous chapters. This chapter he was getting a level per kill almost. Promoted enemies are worth so much XP.




Victory! Except for the berserk Florina problem. Thatís still an issue.




Canas couldnít follow through on the plan to help the right front, there was just too much to do here. Like preparing for those mages.




Ok, so 3 more turns now. Fingers crossed.





Plus side, everyone decided to attack Merlinus so Florina is unhurt and thatís 2 more turns left. Down side, Merlinus got HORRIBLY unlucky. He should have survived all of them for several more turns. In that case Florina would have been totally fine. Now she has a fight on her hands and I canít do anything about it.




I canít restore her, because Iíd have to get close first. And Florina will murder Priscilla. What I CAN do is move just outside her range and hope she happens to move toward ME. That would let Priscilla cure her.




Recover get! Meanwhile, Hector takes 1 chest key and goes for the bottom right chest. Hawkeye has the other.




Itís worth XP.




And soís that.




Nice. I used my last Flux on that one so as to only soften this guy up. That way Raven can kill him next turn. Remember, 1 use weapons are a precious resource. Use them wisely. Use them well.




Moving in on the last real enemy. Heís been wasting all his time with Eclipse.




One chest remaining.




Alright, sheís in trouble so Iím trying to use Canas as bait. If Iím lucky, sheíll attack him. Heíll survive and sheíll be out of shaman range. Itís a long shot.




Raven moves in.




YES! It timed out. Now the win is in the bag.




Of course he crits again. This is now his 4th iron or steel sword crit this chapter.




Well almost in the bag. I had to survive 1 hit from this guy with either Hawkeye or Eliwood. 7% chance of instant lose.




This is the ideal spot to fly to. It lets the shamans reach Florina but not anything behind her- such as Priscilla running in to heal her.




Itís been a rough chapter.




Yay! Canas can heal! Have I mentioned that thatís awesome and completely revolutionizes everything?




Raven: the Criticaling.




Thatís the last chest. Eliwood is like 30 XP from level 20 now.




Alright, itís turn 11 and Iím down to just 1 enemy and I got all the treasure. I win! 10 would have been better, but this chapter went so badly that Iíll take what I can get.




Might as well dance and heal, so Raven pointlessly waits.




He didnít critical! But he did get a sweet level up. With his hard mode bonuses heís not actually that lucky. Raven is just LIKE this. Best infantryman in the game.




Oh hi again Pent. Kind of funny how youíve been here the whole time but chose to do absolutely nothing. Yíknow, you would have been the PERFECT replacement for Priscilla what with youíre a in staves and more than 20 HP.




Mm. Thatís kind of a theme of this game, and itís really well done. There are dozens and dozens of mysteries, many explained and many not. Of course there are. Itís just like that Tolkien quote I brought up last time. Or the real world for that matter. I think FE7 provides a very good balance between having many interesting, hidden resolutions to various unanswered questions about characters and plot elements that you can uncover in secret levels or with supports and still having many aspects of the world be fittingly shrouded in uncertainty.




This is the coolest palace ever.




And this is the second coolest old man ever after Lundgren. And this moment is an awesome one in the game. Thereís really no way to be sure just who you were going to meet at this point. If youíd played 6 you could maybe take a guess, but actually that game in no way suggested this guy would be alive 20 years ago.




http://old.serenesforest.net/media/fe7music/055%20-%20The%20Archsage%20Athos.mp3

The great music is really a huge part of what makes this game so good. Athos is also a wonderful character, one of my favorites in any work. I think heís really a good guess as to what a thousand year old master of just about any field would be like.




You know, I do wonder why Uther apparently knows all about this guy but Hector has no clue. We know Athos is in contact with, at minimum, the courts of Ostia and Etruria and heís apparently known in Nabata. His existence is evidently a state secret- perhaps because he asked that it be one- but you would still think word would get around.




So it is.




Also very true. This moment really establishes Athosís character and his way of doing things. He doesnít answer the question you asked, he answers the question you should have asked. Like what heís been doing for a thousand years.




Immortality and matchless mastery of a field such that no one else can be helpful to you would probably do that.




ÖYeah. Weíre kind of past that part already, Hector.




Athos turns things back in a productive direction.




And explains how he knows so much about them- and what Nergal is up to.




Very true. On the other hand, teleportation and matchless magical power probably IS enough. Thereís sort of a Problem of Evil posed by Athosís existence. Heís nearly omniscient about present happenings, has the power to solve nearly any problem, and is a fairly helpful fellow. So why are there, say, bandits destroying Sacaen tribes? It would be easy to say that Athos thinks just using his powers left and right would cause more problems than it solves- last time he was just going all out with the other 7 Legends they caused global disaster and altered the laws of physics forever. But I suspect that the real reason is the same one he keeps his existence semi-secret now: he has his own goals and while heís willing to help people who need him, he also just doesnít feel compelled to use the powers he earned for other peopleís benefit instead of his own.




He turns things back to Nergal again and explains how Nergal came to be so dangerous.




That was kind of what we were doing already, but at least now the wisest man in Elibe has confirmed this is a good plan.




He cautions that this is going to be more dangerous and have more consequences than they could possibly foresee and asks them whether theyíre sure they want to proceed. Presumably if they said they werenít sure, he take care of Nergal himself right now while heís weak. As he reveals later on, he COULD have just skipped the next 7 or so chapters for us, but the point was the journey rather than the destination. Heís trying to teach Eliwood et al. to fish rather than just give them a fish now.




And then for some reason they skip the scene where he actually tells them what to do and we get Eliwood recapping what he just told them instead. Not sure what the point of that is.




Athos sends Hawkeye with us and Pent and his wife Louise reveal their true identities and join up as well. They were going to Bern anyway and Pent is curious about Nergalís strength and wants to gauge it for himself.




Lyn has never heard of this man, so Hector explains his importance.




Maybe the reason he didnít help out last battle was that we just hadnít given him permission to. Perhaps he got the wrong idea from how we grabbed him and didnít let him fight anymore on Chapter 23. Oops.




And he doesnít give them time to ask why heís not sending them to the Shrine of Seals.




He has a brief conversation with MarketÖ




And gives her this to give to someone else.




Meanwhile, Eleanora is mourning Elbert.




When Eliwood suddenly teleports in.




This is their first chance to talk about Elbertís death. Though thereís not much time. The group decides to just spend one night there resting at Eleanoraís request, rationalizing that one night wonít cost them that much. Boy are they wrong thereÖ




Waaaaaay back on chapter 12 you may remember that Hector expressed that he wasnít sure a tactician as young as Market could be very good. He didnít even say he doubted her, he just asked Eliwood if Eliwood was certain of her skill and then took Eliwoodís word for it. And that was months ago. But even that minor bit of possible rudeness struck him as something he had to apologize for. Hector is really quite polite and rather nice most of the time.




But even Market apparently thinks heís a jerk. Despite all the evidence. I just donít get why Hector is so often going out of his way to be helpful and everyone acts like thatís out of character for him, while Lyn is a jerk a lot of the time and no one ever calls her out on it.


Wow, that was a plot heavy section. The Bern arc is beginning!

Total Restarts: 14 (I did one test run just to figure out how the AI would behave and to check when Kishuna leaves, then I lost again on turn 1 when Priscilla got boltinged as you saw)
Turn Surplus: 18 (Heck yeah! More coming up!)
Things I Regret Missing: The lockpick on chapter 11, that darned archer on chapter 11, this one brigand who attacked Marcus on chapter 12, 2 more brigands who ignored everyone else to attack Marcus on chapter 13x, and 2 archers who ignored Hector and Dorcas (DORCAS!) to attack Marcus on chapter 14, like 10 more enemies I could have killed if Hector could have survived one more turn on chapter18, and Uhai who decided to take a 100% chance of death to Sain over a free hit on Hector, the chance to finish shopping properly with my silver card on chapter 21, the armorslayer that I have acquired if not for a stupid minor mistake on chapter 22, and these 3 wyvern riders who decided they preferred a 0% chance to hit Isadaora and then 100% chance of death against her to fighting a low level Heath.

Melth fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Mar 12, 2015

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Sep 10, 2012

quote:

If Target is 2 levels higher, Dorcas will instead gain 11 [exp for doing non-lethal damage]. If Dorcas is 2 levels lower, heíll gain 9. If Target is 5 levels higher, Dorcas will gain 12 XP, etc.

Added bold to a bit that looks backward. I think that should be either "Target 2 levels lower" or "Dorcas 2 levels higher".

It's not a hard typo to parse, but only if you already understand the concept.

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