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Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


Amnistar posted:

I don't know how the scum powers would work in relation to their night actions. Does it reset any cooldown timers for other abilities when they use it?

Do their other powers have cooldowns?

There are a lot of issues there to say "I didn't see him moving durin the time of the nightkill, therefor he is less likely to be scum."

All actions are time based, so it's either duration or cooldown. Either way, they can't just pop them off one after another, so they'd need to plan.

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Murmur Twin
Feb 11, 2003

An ever-honest pacifist with no mind for tricks.


Kumbamontu posted:

I didn't move ever because I can't

Murmur make me a mason so I at least get SOMETHING

I'm sorry, I went first-come-first-serve on this one and went with Amnistair!

Sorry all, I'm not super good at theoretical chains of "if Meinberg is scum __ is true but if he's town __ is" because they confuse the hell out of me (this might be because I subbed in so late). I'd prefer to just wait and see what we're working with.

Just based on Meinberg vs. Byers content (I am of the belief that there's a town tracker + scum tracker), I'd be really really shocked if Meinberg flips town.

Amnistar
Nov 6, 2008

I am a wizard, not a poet.


Advice for future games done in this style, allow for the players to do something like a ##Vote No Lynch to speed time up until the end of the Lights Out phase to avoid deadtime like this.

Mornacale
Dec 19, 2007

n=y where
y=hope and n=folly,
prospects=lies, win=lose,

self=Pirates


^^^ Get ready to hate this post, MMT

Byers2142 posted:

See above; tomorrow needs to be the last day, and in a Meinberg = town somehow situation, you're not going to have flips to go off of. Meaning even asking that question in that manner loses us the game, because it sets up the two blind mislynch.
(the "above"

Byers2142 posted:

Oh, in case I die before tomorrow; we should open tomorrow with a mass claim. Tomorrow is the last day of the game, because either there's one scum and we can lynch until we find him because the game ending/not ending is as good as a flip if we've mass claimed, or there's 2 scum and it's EXLO anyway.

Town strategy is to lynch to victory tomorrow. The last scum kill should be at 10 tonight.

You're right. Given the low number of players, you can actually simulate extra days through lunching strategy. Here's how it works if Meinberg is town:
1) Dunk X and Y, the two people who are independently scummiest (probably Byers and Kumba, but obviously we should discuss it after a mass claim). It's important that this be independent and not "if X is scum, then Y is his buddy" because the latter is going to lead to an immediate loss if we got X wrong.
2) If the game continues, then we know that exactly one of the two was scum, but not which one.
3) Dunk Z, the player that is most likely scum given either X or Y is scum.
4) If the game continues, dunk the scummiest person given Z was town and exactly one of X and Y was scum.
5) If the game still continues, there are shenanigans afoot.

If Meinberg is scum, then a flowchart:
     Byers is not NKed
          Byers confirms me as town
               dunk until game ends: Somber -> Byers -> Amni -> MMT/myth/Kumba (my current best guess would be myth)
          Byers says I visited the NK target
               dunk until game ends: Byers -> me -> Somber -> Amni (or maybe MMT/myth/Kumba but this deep in the hole I'm most suspicious that Pig roleblocked a buddy)
     Byers is NKed
          dunk until game ends: Somber -> me -> Amni -> MMT/myth/Kumba

Basically, if Meinberg's scum then the scum are in a horrible scenario where they can only win if they screwed with Byers's results in some way, and even then only if the town fails in EXLO.

Amnistar posted:

Advice for future games done in this style, allow for the players to do something like a ##Vote No Lynch to speed time up until the end of the Lights Out phase to avoid deadtime like this.

You can't speed up time because it would interfere with peoples' roles/cooldowns OR you'd have to speed up to exactly the next time a role is available which would result in mod-confirmed information on role use.

Mornacale
Dec 19, 2007

n=y where
y=hope and n=folly,
prospects=lies, win=lose,

self=Pirates


Mornacale posted:

You can't speed up time because it would interfere with peoples' roles/cooldowns OR you'd have to speed up to exactly the next time a role is available which would result in mod-confirmed information on role use.

Well, unless Asiina wanted to essentially simulate a bunch power actions all at once and just give people the results they would have received, but that's both more work for them and would make power roles less effective.

Amnistar
Nov 6, 2008

I am a wizard, not a poet.


Why do I rank so high in your scenario with Meinberg as scum?

Mornacale
Dec 19, 2007

n=y where
y=hope and n=folly,
prospects=lies, win=lose,

self=Pirates


Amnistar posted:

Why do I rank so high in your scenario with Meinberg as scum?

Because I think the possibility that CPig realized Byers was tracking him (I had Byers on a CPig target from his posts in-thread, so I imagine someone else could've) and chose to roleblock you to get you cleared is substantially higher than the chance of 1) one of the scum powers being a mason recruiter/bus driver/untrackable, or 2) myth or Kumba just lucking into not doing any actions during the period when Byers tracks them.

Mornacale
Dec 19, 2007

n=y where
y=hope and n=folly,
prospects=lies, win=lose,

self=Pirates


Though I guess now that I think about it, in all likelihood CPig would have submit that roleblock target before he had any reason to believe he was being tracked, so maybe I'm wrong to prioritize you over that group. But really, I really really doubt we get that far.

Amnistar
Nov 6, 2008

I am a wizard, not a poet.


Mornacale posted:

Because I think the possibility that CPig realized Byers was tracking him (I had Byers on a CPig target from his posts in-thread, so I imagine someone else could've) and chose to roleblock you to get you cleared is substantially higher than the chance of 1) one of the scum powers being a mason recruiter/bus driver/untrackable, or 2) myth or Kumba just lucking into not doing any actions during the period when Byers tracks them.

You think that when the scum realized that byers was a tracker their response was...let's roleblock each other so byers catches us instead of, let's roleblock byers?

Mornacale
Dec 19, 2007

n=y where
y=hope and n=folly,
prospects=lies, win=lose,

self=Pirates


Amnistar posted:

You think that when the scum realized that byers was a tracker their response was...let's roleblock each other so byers catches us instead of, let's roleblock byers?

As opposed to the alternative you are offering of "let's roleblock a random townie who may not even have a power role and let Byers proceed pretty much unimpeded to basically break the game open".

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


Mornacale posted:

Because I think the possibility that CPig realized Byers was tracking him (I had Byers on a CPig target from his posts in-thread, so I imagine someone else could've) and chose to roleblock you to get you cleared is substantially higher than the chance of 1) one of the scum powers being a mason recruiter/bus driver/untrackable, or 2) myth or Kumba just lucking into not doing any actions during the period when Byers tracks them.

I don't get Amni as scummier than MMT. I kinda get your point on the other two but disagree with it, but MMT as townier than Amni?

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


Mornacale posted:

As opposed to the alternative you are offering of "let's roleblock a random townie who may not even have a power role and let Byers proceed pretty much unimpeded to basically break the game open".

Roleblock would have been submitted before I declared, wouldn't it?

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


Byers2142 posted:

Roleblock would have been submitted before I declared, wouldn't it?

Yeah, I just checked. When I declared, it was 2:30 on the 18th. That was almost 24 hours into my next track, and if CPig was on the same 48 hour schedule I am he was already tracking Amni. That's why I trust it, they didn't have time to plan around it.

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


Mornacale posted:

^^^ Get ready to hate this post, MMT

(the "above"


You're right. Given the low number of players, you can actually simulate extra days through lunching strategy. Here's how it works if Meinberg is town:
1) Dunk X and Y, the two people who are independently scummiest (probably Byers and Kumba, but obviously we should discuss it after a mass claim). It's important that this be independent and not "if X is scum, then Y is his buddy" because the latter is going to lead to an immediate loss if we got X wrong.
2) If the game continues, then we know that exactly one of the two was scum, but not which one.
3) Dunk Z, the player that is most likely scum given either X or Y is scum.
4) If the game continues, dunk the scummiest person given Z was town and exactly one of X and Y was scum.
5) If the game still continues, there are shenanigans afoot.

If Meinberg is scum, then a flowchart:
     Byers is not NKed
          Byers confirms me as town
               dunk until game ends: Somber -> Byers -> Amni -> MMT/myth/Kumba (my current best guess would be myth)
          Byers says I visited the NK target
               dunk until game ends: Byers -> me -> Somber -> Amni (or maybe MMT/myth/Kumba but this deep in the hole I'm most suspicious that Pig roleblocked a buddy)
     Byers is NKed
          dunk until game ends: Somber -> me -> Amni -> MMT/myth/Kumba

Basically, if Meinberg's scum then the scum are in a horrible scenario where they can only win if they screwed with Byers's results in some way, and even then only if the town fails in EXLO.


You can't speed up time because it would interfere with peoples' roles/cooldowns OR you'd have to speed up to exactly the next time a role is available which would result in mod-confirmed information on role use.

Also, with the exception of lynching me/Amni, this is a pro strategy.

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


Just in case I die, remember that Amni is town. Build your lynching strategy tomorrow around that baseline.

Mornacale
Dec 19, 2007

n=y where
y=hope and n=folly,
prospects=lies, win=lose,

self=Pirates


Byers2142 posted:

Yeah, I just checked. When I declared, it was 2:30 on the 18th. That was almost 24 hours into my next track, and if CPig was on the same 48 hour schedule I am he was already tracking Amni. That's why I trust it, they didn't have time to plan around it.

Mornacale posted:

Though I guess now that I think about it, in all likelihood CPig would have submit that roleblock target before he had any reason to believe he was being tracked, so maybe I'm wrong to prioritize you over that group. But really, I really really doubt we get that far.

But also you're failing to account for the possibility that CPig didn't send in his action promptly.

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


Mornacale posted:

But also you're failing to account for the possibility that CPig didn't send in his action promptly.

I don't find that plausible, that he held for a day.

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

Sorry I got caught up posting 90s commercials in the discussion thread!



Day 3 has ended!


Meinberg, The White Rabbit, scum-aligned Tracker died D3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sg-vgGuTD8A
Byers2142, Time Warp, town-aligned Tracker has died N3.

It is now D4. Next scum kill will be Friday at 10pm.

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...




I had the best flavor, y'all!

Mornacale
Dec 19, 2007

n=y where
y=hope and n=folly,
prospects=lies, win=lose,

self=Pirates


It's claim time, boys and girls. I'm VT.

Also, I'm planning to follow my flowchart today (except I won't be voting for myself because I'm confirmed to myself, but I can understand why y'all will/should if Somber isn't scum), so: ##vote Somberbrero

Murmur Twin
Feb 11, 2003

An ever-honest pacifist with no mind for tricks.


I believe it's all known but for the sake of chiming in: I am a mason recruiter and recruited

D1 Byers (as exakt)
D2 Hiipfire
d3 Meinberg
D4 amnistair

If there are no objections I'm happy to vote somber in the morning (drifting off to sleep at the moment)

Amnistar
Nov 6, 2008

I am a wizard, not a poet.


My role makes no difference to anything, I've claimed it to murmur and he can back up the fact that claiming it will tell us nothing and would likely hurt us more than help us.

Amnistar
Nov 6, 2008

I am a wizard, not a poet.


And I'm willing to bet on Murmur being town over anyone else in the thread and kill people until it's just the two of us left.

Mornacale
Dec 19, 2007

n=y where
y=hope and n=folly,
prospects=lies, win=lose,

self=Pirates


Amnistar posted:

My role makes no difference to anything, I've claimed it to murmur and he can back up the fact that claiming it will tell us nothing and would likely hurt us more than help us.

I'm fine with letting you claim last if Murmur will back you up on this, but since this is the last day of the game you have to claim eventually (unless we just kill Somber and end the game).

mythadile
Jun 19, 2005


CapitalistPig posted:

##vote pmom

Pmom and somber and meinberg scumteam

Somberbrero posted:

why am i scum then?

why is meinberg scum?

Lets find out
##shoot Somberbrero

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer



Somber has died!

Votefinder has been reset

Day continues











...or does it?!


Somberbrero, Time Magazine, scum-aligned goon was shot D4.

All scum have been eliminated. Scum have lost!


Murmur Twin, Time Lord, town-aligned Mason Recruiter


mythadile, The Time Machine, town-aligned Dayvig


Amnistar, Big Ben, town-aligned Hider

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdQY7BusJNU
Mornacale, Time After Time, town-aligned vanilla


Kumbamontu, The Hours, town-aligned vanilla

All these people won!

Congrats!

Various docs will be posted momentarily.

Pinterest Mom
Jun 9, 2009



mythadile
Jun 19, 2005


Well played everyone.

Thanks for the setup and great hosting Asiina.

Somberbrero
Feb 14, 2009

The Pit Awaits


Aw sorry ya'll.

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

Scumdoc

All the masonries

My insane Moddoc

Pinterest Mom
Jun 9, 2009



I was really happy that Byers and Murmur immediately jumped to the right conclusion when I was killed. Good job town~

This was great Asii thanks!

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

Mod notes!

- I can't believe myth held onto his rechargeable dayvig all that time. Impressive restraint.
- I don't think TheRam's role was impossible (get three hangings in a single day). He could even be the third one and still win. He just decided to go straight for it and it bit him.
- I liked having no cop, cause I felt a cop would be completely overpowered in this setup. I realized about 80 hours in I should have made the cooldown on the rolecop 48 hours instead of 72 since there were no scum powers that absolutely gave away their scumminess.
- This:

Kumbamontu posted:

I would assume one of the scum roles is a Rolecop, otherwise how did CPig know to claim self-watcher unless that is just some crazy cosmic coincidence that he happened to claim PMom's role

I was honestly worried about OOT communication on the part of PMom and CPig because this lined up so drat perfectly. PMom's messages to me wondering what the hell was up were pretty hilarious.

Overall I feel this was balanced pretty well. I think LO favours scum from the get go and was worried that without a cop town would be a little underpowered, but I think town played both hard and smart and it was a well deserved win.

Asiina fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Mar 25, 2015

Pinterest Mom
Jun 9, 2009



Oh, yeah, props to myth for that amazing trigger discipline.

Asiina posted:

I was honestly worried about OOT communication on the part of PMom and CPig because this lined up so drat perfectly. PMom's messages to me wondering what the hell was up were pretty hilarious.

Late last year, Asiina and I were in an aborted Poison Mushroom game together where we had a weird joint cop role where we would get garbled versions of each others' results. I thought she might have taken inspiration from that.

Ernie.
Aug 31, 2012



o man i totally thought last person would be mythadile

Mornacale
Dec 19, 2007

n=y where
y=hope and n=folly,
prospects=lies, win=lose,

self=Pirates


Holy poo poo, awesome job guys. I'm glad I picked your game to feed my mafia jones, Asiina.

By the way, incredible read by PMom, calling Somber from the loving jump. Yow.

Crazy trigger discipline by myth leading to the most climactic possible end. Really the most exciting thing a vig can do in Lights Out, I suppose.

I can't loving believe there was no scum rolecop. Pig, what even are you?

I think the scum got really hosed by those two claims d1, and then probably compounded the problem by failing to check Byers via roleblock/nk. It would have probably got Meinberg killed, but might have bought Pig another day. Plus, we ended up just having too many confirmed town for Somber to have a real chance.

e: Ooh I'm editing in a mafia thread I feel so rebellious! But also I would of course be remiss to not thank Byers again for buying me plat so I could find out about my boring role in the most convenient way. Plus also for being integral to us winning.

Mornacale fucked around with this message at 05:12 on Mar 25, 2015

HiipFire
Sep 1, 2013

JENNY DEATH LIVES


That was a cool game thanks Asiina

Somberbrero
Feb 14, 2009

The Pit Awaits


Town played a great game, especially the new dudes. Hope you all play more.

Mornacale
Dec 19, 2007

n=y where
y=hope and n=folly,
prospects=lies, win=lose,

self=Pirates


Having a scumdoc is a cool invention that I had not previously seen.

CapitalistPig posted:

Im trying a thing

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HiipFire
Sep 1, 2013

JENNY DEATH LIVES


Welp, atleast I was 2/3 with my mafia reads so that's kinda ok.

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