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Rascyc
Jan 23, 2008

Dissatisfied Puppy

I think their exact goal was to avoid D&D wizards who are useless for a majority of the game

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Hollismason
Jun 30, 2007

"Real life is messy, inconsistent, and it's seldom when anything ever really gets resolved."



Heithinn Grasida posted:

I just fought the Adra Dragon for the first time. After reloading about 10 times to work out a strategy to kill the Alpine Dragon, I was expecting a nightmare and thought I'd just run it once without preparation to see what I'm facing. Eder ran up and hit it with knockdown on the first attack. It never got up again. I wasn't expecting the adragans and they gave me a scare with returning storm, but it didn't matter in the end. Give Aloth enough time to set himself up and he can win any fight by himself. I thought I remember reading before the game was released that Obsidian was trying to avoid caster supremacy, but it exists in full force in this game. Especially with the expansion. Ninagauth's shadowflame is simply bonkers. I'm amazed that spell was allowed to exist at all. And I just hit level 13 and I haven't even started chapter 3 yet, so I imagine the rest of the game will consist of Aloth casting fireball until everything is dead.

Wait where do you get the spell Ninagauth's Shadowflame? I know you get a special spell from Concelhaut. Casters are pretty powerful Druids, Priest, and a Wizard if you get in a bad situation can absolutely go nuts with Iconic Project , Seals, then all the other stuff.

Scorchy
Jul 15, 2006

Smug Statement: Elementary, my dear meatbag.


Hollismason posted:

Wait where do you get the spell Ninagauth's Shadowflame? I know you get a special spell from Concelhaut. Casters are pretty powerful Druids, Priest, and a Wizard if you get in a bad situation can absolutely go nuts with Iconic Project , Seals, then all the other stuff.

You can find Ninagauth's spellbook in the White March, it has a bunch of pretty OP spells in it. It's hidden in a snowbank near Durgan's Battery if I remember correctly. You'd need to be scouting around to find it.

Hollismason
Jun 30, 2007

"Real life is messy, inconsistent, and it's seldom when anything ever really gets resolved."



Weird I found that in my last game and it didn't have poo poo in it. Apparently it's a bug or something. I'll go back and find it i have the note. A fireball that does paralyze is pretty great.

I've got Devil equipped with the Lance Tall in whatever that causes knockdown when it crits and increases Crit chance. Pretty insane. Also, went for Riposte so I could maybe get it that to activate.

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


Heithinn Grasida posted:

Has anyone played with spelltongue much? It seems like a really cool unique weapon. The speed boost stacks with the boost from other sources (or from swift strikes, at least). It took me a while to figure out what the game meant by stealing duration from beneficial effects, but it seems it decreases the enemy's effects by 5% on each hit and increases the duration of your effects by 5% per hit. Swift strikes never runs out as long as you keep hitting things with the rapier. Now I'm trying to think of a class that has limited, but very powerful short duration effects that you can prolong indefinitely with spelltongue. It might be really good with a barbarian for permanent frenzy and AoE slow on every hit.
I think a front-line Cipher would work okay with it if you're using some of the other stat-stealing powers like Psychovampiric Shield or Borrowed Instinct, plus attack speed is always nice for more focus-gain. I don't know whether they'd be better with that than dual sabres or an Estoc (especially the soulbound one) though. Maybe I'll try it for my next run.

Heithinn Grasida
Mar 27, 2005

...must attack and fall upon them with a gallant bearing and a fearless heart, and, if possible, vanquish and destroy them, even though they have for armour the shells of a certain fish, that they say are harder than diamonds, and in place of swords wield trenchant blades of Damascus steel...



Rascyc posted:

I think their exact goal was to avoid D&D wizards who are useless for a majority of the game

That makes sense. However, the power curve is quite similar to D&D, but perhaps not quite so steep. The wizard still goes from occasionally contributing significantly to a fight while otherwise being useless to more or less winning every fight by himself. And we haven't even hit the levels at which wizards were completely absurd in BG2. If the trend continues as it has in the next expansion, casters will become even more absurdly powerful in comparison to other classes. It's an inevitable result of the number of abilities they get. What's more, because low level spells never stop being useful (which is good), per encounter spells get more and more ridiculous. If level four spells become per encounter, shadowflame will be able to win practically every fight in the game by itself.

This all sounds very negative, but actually I think the class design is one of the strongest aspects of this game. However, I do think Obsidian was far too conservative with the abilities they gave other classes compared to caster classes. Consider binding roots: 5 per rest fast casting stucks. It doesn't sound that bad, but compare it with what wizards get at the same level. Slicken alone outclasses it by an enormous margin, you can cast slicken more times per encounter rather than you can cast binding roots per rest, it's far more powerful, you have access to quite a few other very powerful abilities like fan of flames and chill fog also per encounter and that's not even to mention your per rest abilities. I don't think rangers are weak at all, but they don't get anything that can shape the outcome of a fight like a wizard.

My personal, it's late at night and I really should be going to bed opinion is that for fighter classes to stand up to casters, they need far more active abilities and casters need far fewer. I think the grimoire should limit wizard to 6-8 spells total. As it is, you have no reason to switch grimoires ever. Priests and Druids should also have restrictions on the number of spells they can access. Other classes active abilities at mid-high levels need to have much more impact, need to consistently stack with caster buffs (this is a particularly absurd point of the current design) and need to be per encounter or even at will for low impact active skills. As it is, wizards, priests and druids, and wizards most of all, get such a gigantic toolbox that as the game progresses, they win fights all by themselves more and more while the rest of your party stands around taking hits for the wizard (who actually can tank better than all of them if he feels like it).

Ravenfood posted:

I think a front-line Cipher would work okay with it if you're using some of the other stat-stealing powers like Psychovampiric Shield or Borrowed Instinct, plus attack speed is always nice for more focus-gain. I don't know whether they'd be better with that than dual sabres or an Estoc (especially the soulbound one) though. Maybe I'll try it for my next run.

I thought about that. I love ciphers in concept, but every melee cipher I've tried just instantly explodes as soon as something looks at him funny and I end up simply using the same powers over and over again every fight. Maybe I'll eventually try making a cipher with spelltongue and a buckler that can actually stand toe to toe in melee combat, but for now monks are still my favorite, for whatever reason.

Rianlee
Jan 15, 2009


Pillbug

I'm thinking of making Team Machine from Person of Interest for my next playthrough on hard or maybe PotD difficulty. Finch and Reese are easy: Wizard and Paladin respectively, but I'm not sure about the rest. Root as priest and Shaw as Thief/Assassin? Carter might work as another Paladin, but I am completely stumped as to Fusco.

Any ideas/more interesting yet fitting classes?

sassassin
Apr 3, 2010

If you see me posting tell me to log off and get back to work on my Teledji fanfiction!!!

#1 Teledji Adeledji fan - Monetarists Did Nothing Wrong


In order for fighters to be remotely comparable to wizards they need to unlock every combat style modal based on level instead of having to choose one them as a talent. The mundane classes lack anything approaching the versatility the casters get as standard.

Pellisworth
Jun 20, 2005

I'm a horse of a different color


Rianlee posted:

I'm thinking of making Team Machine from Person of Interest for my next playthrough on hard or maybe PotD difficulty. Finch and Reese are easy: Wizard and Paladin respectively, but I'm not sure about the rest. Root as priest and Shaw as Thief/Assassin? Carter might work as another Paladin, but I am completely stumped as to Fusco.

Any ideas/more interesting yet fitting classes?

Reese - Fighter, paladin would also make sense but Reese is always the guy getting shot up and fighting on despite his wounds, which fits Fighter pretty well imo. For the same reason monk might also work, he loves to kung fu almost as much as he likes grenade launchers.
Carter - Paladin, more of an idealist and died for the cause. Not so keen on the vigilantism at the start so makes more sense as a paladin imo.
Finch - Wizard
Root - Priest or Cipher? Priest makes most sense imo and would be best for balance if you played on PotD. But as a hacker, cipher makes sense too.
Shaw - Ranger, wolf pet named Bear. Might make better sense as a rogue but come on you need Bear
Fusco - Rogue or Barbarian. Has a shady past

edited for brief explanations

sassassin posted:

In order for fighters to be remotely comparable to wizards they need to unlock every combat style modal based on level instead of having to choose one them as a talent. The mundane classes lack anything approaching the versatility the casters get as standard.

There are just way too many passive abilities and talents that enhance passive abilities and they are mostly boring and small numbers.

Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Sep 28, 2015

Rianlee
Jan 15, 2009


Pillbug


Thank you for the ideas! I didn't consider monk at all, and yes, Bear has to get in on the fun too.

Khizan
Jul 30, 2013




They should limit casters to like... 5-6 casts per encounter, with no limits on resting. Part of the reason why casters are so powerful is that you can conserve spells on all the trash fights and then blow your entire spell load in one encounter. It makes it impossible to really balance them because their offensive pressure can range from "weapon hits with no supporting skills" to "literally casts 100% of the fight".

Hollismason
Jun 30, 2007

"Real life is messy, inconsistent, and it's seldom when anything ever really gets resolved."



Yeah I just found the spell they were talking about and it makes all fights ridiculously easy. Sneak Up Cast Paralysing Fireball, Follow with Chill Fog, Have Hiravias cast Maggots and other debuffs. Recast Paralysing Fireball. Icon Projections, Debuff. Dead.

Killed a group of 11 ogres and like 5 wolves doing that and I didn't even attack them in HtH everyone just shot guns.

Digital_Jesus
Feb 10, 2011



Rianlee posted:

I'm thinking of making Team Machine from Person of Interest for my next playthrough on hard or maybe PotD difficulty. Finch and Reese are easy: Wizard and Paladin respectively, but I'm not sure about the rest. Root as priest and Shaw as Thief/Assassin? Carter might work as another Paladin, but I am completely stumped as to Fusco.

Any ideas/more interesting yet fitting classes?

If Fusco isn't a bumbling drunken dwarven thief (with low stealth who frequently gets seen) then you dun hosed up.

Pellisworth
Jun 20, 2005

I'm a horse of a different color


Digital_Jesus posted:

If Fusco isn't a bumbling drunken dwarven thief (with low stealth who frequently gets seen) then you dun hosed up.

but... he's sober

he drinks club soda



drunken dwarf thief would work for pre-reformed HR dirty cop Fusco though

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

I must go down to the seas again, to the lonely sea and the sky, And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by

Khizan posted:

They should limit casters to like... 5-6 casts per encounter, with no limits on resting. Part of the reason why casters are so powerful is that you can conserve spells on all the trash fights and then blow your entire spell load in one encounter. It makes it impossible to really balance them because their offensive pressure can range from "weapon hits with no supporting skills" to "literally casts 100% of the fight".

Bioware gets it. Casters get to do all the things, but fold like wet cardboard should any of the enemies look at them. The job of warriors is to grab aggro and then manage their abilities so as to not get hurt.

frajaq
Jan 30, 2009

#acolyte GM of 2014




Alchenar posted:

Bioware gets it. Casters get to do all the things, but fold like wet cardboard should any of the enemies look at them. The job of warriors is to grab aggro and then manage their abilities so as to not get hurt.

Yeah at least warriors in Bioware games had lots of abilities, hell some of them even flashy! Compare it to how boring fighters are in PoE makes me sad

Hollismason
Jun 30, 2007

"Real life is messy, inconsistent, and it's seldom when anything ever really gets resolved."



I like the Barbarian Class a lot. When I get up in level I still have some created adventurers I can make and I'm holding onto a lot of gear so gonna try a barbarian squad. Wizards and Druids really are terrible at the beginning levels and then at like level 9 it all goes down hill because your getting rings that give you more spells, extra spells, powerful AOE spells that only hit your enemies and cause stun. Also don't discount the combat mage because Spirit Shield, then the Spirit Lance is devastating.

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Citzal%27s_Martial_Power

Hollismason fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Sep 28, 2015

Scorchy
Jul 15, 2006

Smug Statement: Elementary, my dear meatbag.


Alchenar posted:

Bioware gets it. Casters get to do all the things, but fold like wet cardboard should any of the enemies look at them.

Knight-Enchanters

Nelson Mandingo
Mar 27, 2005





frajaq posted:

Yeah at least warriors in Bioware games had lots of abilities, hell some of them even flashy! Compare it to how boring fighters are in PoE makes me sad

Fighters though are by design made to emulate D&D fighters- who are pretty passive and easy to play. I think it was a good idea to have a throwback but I suspect they realized upon adding Sundering Blow that fighters needed another active beyond knockdown.

Personally I think disciplined barrage should be redone as an actual attack ability with comparable merit to knockdown, as it's currently pretty useless and a noob trap. I think disciplined barrage should be a high damage skill and knockdown remains the same, meaning for the lower levels you're choosing damage or group utility, which is a common theme to the fighters skillset.

Nelson Mandingo fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Sep 28, 2015

Khizan
Jul 30, 2013




Alchenar posted:

Bioware gets it. Casters get to do all the things, but fold like wet cardboard should any of the enemies look at them. The job of warriors is to grab aggro and then manage their abilities so as to not get hurt.

Arcane Warrior says hello! Also, the Sentinel from the Mass Effect games is both an omni-caster and an unkillable tank.

The thing Bioware does right is that it doesn't use per-rest based casting systems. That means that it's actually possible to get their casters relatively balanced, because it's not possible to go 5 fights without casting a single spell and then go "stinking cloud -> fireball -> fireball -> fireball -> fireball -> fireball" to settle up the 'boss' fight without taking damage.

Lt. Danger
Dec 22, 2006

jolly good chaps we sure showed the hun



Yes but my Vancian caaasting

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

I must go down to the seas again, to the lonely sea and the sky, And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by

Khizan posted:

Arcane Warrior says hello! Also, the Sentinel from the Mass Effect games is both an omni-caster and an unkillable tank.

The thing Bioware does right is that it doesn't use per-rest based casting systems. That means that it's actually possible to get their casters relatively balanced, because it's not possible to go 5 fights without casting a single spell and then go "stinking cloud -> fireball -> fireball -> fireball -> fireball -> fireball" to settle up the 'boss' fight without taking damage.

Yeah Mages can do the fightery thing but it requires a big talent investment that's mutually exclusive with other spell choices. While they're doing it they also can't really cast spells.

But it isn't just about forcing Mages to make choices in character development while freeing them up in battle to use their abilities more, what Bioware have done with the concept of 'Guard' is a really great mechanic that gives Fighters something to do that Mages can't. Building and maintaining 'guard' is a way for fighters to 'tank' in a way that doesn't make them entirely reliant on magic users to do the healing bit that lets them soak damage. Having abilities that disrupt enemy guard gives them a role in combat that mages don't. There are certainly issues, but the basic concept of 'don't force Fighters and Mages into a straight competition on damage, give them mutually supporting roles in combat' is the right one.


e: 'engagement' feels like step 1 of a 10 step plan to make front line fighters feel useful and important. Game needs the other steps though.

Alchenar fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Sep 28, 2015

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.


Nelson Mandingo posted:

Fighters though are by design made to emulate D&D fighters- who are pretty passive and easy to play.
And wizards, druids, and priests were largely made to emulate their pre-4E equivalents. Per rest resources are enough of a problem that we are very likely to change how they work if we make a sequel.

e: Patch 2.02 is out now, btw.

rope kid fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Sep 28, 2015

Gyshall
Feb 24, 2009

Had a couple of drinks.
Saw a couple of things.


rope kid posted:

e: Patch 2.02 is out now, btw.

thanks kewl dude

frajaq
Jan 30, 2009

#acolyte GM of 2014




rope kid posted:

And wizards, druids, and priests were largely made to emulate their pre-4E equivalents. Per rest resources are enough of a problem that we are very likely to change how they work if we make a sequel.

Just go full 4E IMO

Per encounter/per rest abilities for all classes right from level 1, bam!

Thor-Stryker
Nov 11, 2005


I think they could've done a better job by D&Ding their casters into specific schools of spells. That way a mage could have one to two schools he could cast all spells from, but has to use a talent point to take a tertiary-school spell.

Wizard Styles
Aug 6, 2014

level 15 disillusionist


I would have been much happier without the Vancian system, but I don't think caster supremacy is an issue as much as wizard supremacy. And that is to a large degree due to action denial (and how it interacts with the accuracy system) imo.

Rascyc
Jan 23, 2008

Dissatisfied Puppy

What spell is "paralyzing fireball"?

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.


Ninagauth's Shadowflame.

Scorchy
Jul 15, 2006

Smug Statement: Elementary, my dear meatbag.


Khizan posted:

The thing Bioware does right is that it doesn't use per-rest based casting systems. That means that it's actually possible to get their casters relatively balanced, because it's not possible to go 5 fights without casting a single spell and then go "stinking cloud -> fireball -> fireball -> fireball -> fireball -> fireball" to settle up the 'boss' fight without taking damage.

I don't find this is that big of a deal. There's 11 classes in PoE with varying resource systems, it's okay for asymmetrical power levels. As long as each class has a situation where they can shine, it's fine. It's an easy trap to try and bring every class to parity by giving them access to the same amount of stuff. Mages get 10 spells? Fighters should get 10 abilities. Buttons = awesome. With a large party limit like in PoE it's not necessary for every class to do a same amount of things, nor is it necessary for every class to be balanced at the same stuff compared to each other.

As for Bioware, DA doesn't bother delving into multi-fight resource management the way PoE does. Fights can be balanced around everyone having being full strength, and everything's so great because all the edges are filed off. Over time, that same consistency and balance can end up being really bland. It strips away the emotional ups and downs of that long-term resource management; I'm no longer scraping by in a dungeon, trying to balance my spell conservation, hitpoints and consumables because I know I'll need all three for the last fight between me and the exit.

So I don't have a problem with casters saving up their casts for the 'boss' fight. If you're doing that then you're basically playing with a 5-man party for the rest of the encounters and your combat effectiveness suffers accordingly. That's a trade-off you can choose to make and I think it's fine. It's also real cathartic to come to a boss at the end of the dungeon and unload everything you've been saving up. That feels earned; I wouldn't want that to be balanced away. Those are the ups and downs I like.

It's also not exclusive what happens with casters in PoE. For my current PotD run my unplanned party ended up being:

Melee Cipher
Eder
Devil of Caroc
Sagani
Zahua
Aloth

So basically 5 single-target attackers, 1 caster, and no support at all. Just because of the sheer amount of enemies in the packs in PotD, the roles have become inverted where during regular trash packs, Aloth is casting AoE like crazy and does the majority of the work, and everyone else just kinda stands in a circle and watches. For the big boss fights, Aloth is on secondary duty while everyone else unloads on the boss.

Not saying casters don't have their problems (the level 9/per encounter spell change is when they take off into the stratosphere), but the mix of Vancian and non-Vancian systems adds a lot of wrinkles unique to the game that would be lost if you were to try to normalize every class.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.


In the relatively near future, the current switchover of low level spells to per encounter is going to be changed. Instead, the "Vancian" casters will pick a spell of that level or lower as a mastered spell. A mastered spell can be cast 1/Encounter in addition to all other uses. Wizards do not need to have this spell in their currently equipped grimoire to take advantage of it.

Nycticeius
Feb 25, 2008

This is the part when you try to stop me and I beat the hell out of you.

I think that's a good option IMO. I'm not usually a fan of nerfing to achieve balance, but the way the system is implemented would bring complications in higher levels.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.


BTW, until I lower the duration, Minor Grimoire Imprint in 2.02 should be much more powerful, bordering on incredibly powerful, because it can take spells from wizards, druids, and priests.

Scorchy
Jul 15, 2006

Smug Statement: Elementary, my dear meatbag.


rope kid posted:

BTW, until I lower the duration, Minor Grimoire Imprint in 2.02 should be much more powerful, bordering on incredibly powerful, because it can take spells from wizards, druids, and priests.

What's the duration right now? Seems kinda buggy, I've been using it sporadically and now Aloth has a permanent 5th spell (Necrotic Lance) on his spellbar, and his spellbook has like 3 versions of Ghost Blades in it.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.


Base 60s.

StashAugustine
Mar 24, 2013

Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.









When is part 2 scheduled to come out btw?

Periodiko
Jan 30, 2005
Uh.

Khizan posted:

The thing Bioware does right is that it doesn't use per-rest based casting systems. That means that it's actually possible to get their casters relatively balanced, because it's not possible to go 5 fights without casting a single spell and then go "stinking cloud -> fireball -> fireball -> fireball -> fireball -> fireball" to settle up the 'boss' fight without taking damage.

But is that a problem of balance, you went "5 fights without casting a single spell." You could make the same argument with any consumable resource in any game. I painstakingly didn't use any of my rocket ammo for the entire map and then when I got to the boss I finally used my second weapon slot and smoked him. The option to do stuff like that is usually a feature, not a bug.

Basic Chunnel
Sep 21, 2010

Jesus! Jesus Christ! Say his name! Jesus! Jesus! Come down now!



StashAugustine posted:

When is part 2 scheduled to come out btw?
It's not done yet

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.


StashAugustine posted:

When is part 2 scheduled to come out btw?
The release date hasn't been announced because we're still working on it.

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Hollismason
Jun 30, 2007

"Real life is messy, inconsistent, and it's seldom when anything ever really gets resolved."



I've yet to have a fight with kith, beasts, or anyone else vulnerable to paralyze that the fireball didn't make the entire fight a joke. Before the ogres and others were pretty difficult now it's just easy. It's crazy powerful. I just restarted from a previous save because it's possible to just not have to fight anything. Take more stealth items on Aloth, Sneak, Cast Spell, Follow with Prone spell. Murder everyone.

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