|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:I'm not sure your examples really support you here. Long Kiss Goodnight is amazing, Battle Angel and Bourne Identity are very good, and Memento was solid enough. I have no idea what Unknown is but if somebody cited all of those as influences or similar shows I'd be more interested, not less. Most of them were great but amnesiac killer just feels overdone now.
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 01:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jan 17, 2026 07:46 |
|
|
Periodiko posted:I had this exact thought during his last conversation with Bedelia, noticing how he talked to Dolarhyde, then her. When he's talking with Bedelia in their 'therapy' sessions, he adopts her insanely circumlocutious speech patterns and tendency to speak in aphorism, as well as her hypnotized, aloof physicality. He addresses Hannibal like Hannibal - unflinching stares and bold declarations filled with implication. When he's talking to Jack, he tends speak in a much more familiar and laid-back style, complete with jokes. Thinking on it, I think you might be on to something. Will does change pretty dramatically depending on who he's around. If nothing else, it's a nice subtle read that I enjoy. n3wt posted:I'd really love to hear Harris' take on this Hannibal adaptation. In at least one interview somewhere, that I can't find now (one of the panel type interviews with a bunch of cast and crew), Bryan says that Martha De Laurentis told him that Harris has told her he likes the show. So a friend of a friend of a friend type compliment, maybe? I'd love to see a direct interview with the man. I know Bryan talks a big game about the "purple prose" of the books, but really the first two are pretty straightforward procedurals with some flowery prose surrounding the action. It's Hannibal where things go goofy/surreal.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 01:57
|
|
|
muscles like this? posted:Yeah, the end of the novel Hannibal has Clarice kidnapped by Hannibal, who then proceeds to drug her and turn her enough that she joins up with him and they run away together. It's the reason Jodie Foster refused to do the movie but then they changed the ending anyway. I think that this aspect was going to be the basis for season 4. There's a Fuller interview on Grantland where he says: quote:There’s a portion of the novel Hannibal that has not been included in any of the adaptations of the story. That was the thrust of the potential Season 4 for us — taking this plot point from that book and reconceiving it for Will and Hannibal. I think the drugging/turning is the portion of Hannibal that he's talking about.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 02:18
|
|
|
Wiggy Marie posted:I'd love to see a direct interview with the man. Apparently he hasn't done any for almost 40 years.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 04:12
|
|
|
Sleeveless posted:Red Dragon is the only adaptation that brought up Dollarhyde's sexual abuse as a child and actually brought his internal conflict to the forefront, Fiennes may not have been as imposing or memorable but he was the most sympathetic. And I liked how that factored into the ending where Will uses his knowledge of that abuse to taunt Dollarhyde, disarm him, and ultimately bring him down. One of my favourite passages from Red Dragon, which was left out of every adaptation, described how he wears homemade asbestos earplugs when he's in a darkroom environment--because he's afraid that his coworkers might find him out if they see the light shining out of his brain. (I believe Mads makes a reference to the danger of others "seeing his radiance" or somesuch.) I think the show has done more than any of the other adaptations to convey just how deeply deluded Dolarhyde is, but that bit is missing. Steve Yun posted:I am totally on board with sexier, younger Hannibal. I am totally down with the portrayal of Hannibal as evil semi-supernatural genius instead of insane genius. But man, gently caress those abrasive plaid suits. A Steampunk Gent posted:Jack really seemed to blow his narrative load in his fight with Hannibal, I don't think he did anything good or interesting past that I just rewatched this and wanted to point out a couple things. 1. Hannibal got a straight-up one-sided yell down war hell ride from a guy in a sweater vest. That's got to be embarrassing. 2. This was probably said when that episode first aired, but on the off-chance I'm the only one who noticed--there's no way that the musical choice wasn't a bit of a tribute to A Clockwork Orange. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 05:17 on Sep 1, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 05:12
|
|
|
A lot of people noted that. Also, remember the use of Beethoven's 9th when Jack and the Science Team figured out how the Chesapeake Ripper put the muralist in his own mural? I think that was a reference to Clockwork Orange as well, about how art can be used to inspire evil. You might have also noticed the restroom in the very first episode was a reference to the Shining: http://www.ew.com/article/2013/04/04/hannibal-bryan-fuller-the-shining I'm sure there are more Kubrick references but I can't remember off the top of my head. Fuller also named Lynch, Cronenberg and Tony Scott as influences. ***** BTW this brings up something I'd been mulling around in my head for a while. One of the things I really enjoyed about this show was that the classical music selection was soooooo not mainstream. There are the 40 or 50 classical songs that everyone's heard a million times before and for the most part the show did a good job of avoiding them and picking out amazing music that most people haven't heard. The notable exceptions are when the show seems to be referencing other movies. The Bach Aria refers to Ridley Scott's 2001 Hannibal film, and is used as Hannibal's theme song as a sort of homage. The Beethoven's 9th is a reference to Clockwork Orange, as is The Thieving Magpie. Pretty much every other song is an obscure selection. THEN when we get to Mason's dinner where he holds Will and Hannibal captive, we listen to the Piano Concerto 21 in C Major: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y4Fkxg7WcA Listen to that. You probably have heard it a million times before. It is such an overplayed and "safe" and mainstream classical song, I think it sums up Mason's attempts to be classy and artistic in comparison to Hannibal. Janice Poon also noted on her blog that she designed the food on Mason's table to be not quite as beautiful as Hannibal's dishes. It's such a subtle thing but it's neat that they code Hannibal's and Mason's characterization with their musical taste like that. Steve Yun fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Sep 1, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 06:16
|
|
|
el oso posted:I think that this aspect was going to be the basis for season 4. There's a Fuller interview on Grantland where he says: To be fair though, didn't the show already do multiple loose adaptations of that through Hannibal and Miriam (programmed her to blame and shoot Chilton), Hannibal and Abigail (screwed with her already messed up head to make her see him as a surrogate father/murder-mentor), and kinda Hannibal and Bedelia (she made up that he drugged and brainwashed her as a cover story). Edit: I gotta say that the Abigail character and her relationships with Hannibal and Will and her own attempts to come to terms with the life she was living were a really fantastic original addition to the show. I think I recall them saying she was initially meant to be a one-off character? She ended up being present across all three seasons and she was a really compelling (and tragic) character, and I thought the actor did a really good job with the part.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 06:22
|
|
|
Steve Yun posted:BTW this brings up something I'd been mulling around in my head for a while. One of the things I really enjoyed about this show was that the classical music selection was soooooo not mainstream. There are the 40 or 50 classical songs that everyone's heard a million times before and for the most part the show did a good job of avoiding them and picking out amazing music that most people haven't heard. This is fascinating. I'm really curious, why do you think they used Debussy in several of the Dolarhyde/Reba scenes? Debussy is one of my favorite composers.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 06:44
|
|
|
I'm not certain, but I would guess that the Debussy piece they picked features a piano to emphasize touch and hands, which is how Reba sees the world. Brilliant! (if that's what Reitzell was thinking) Dolarhyde gets a lot of different creepy instruments as his music. I'm skipping around right now and Reba seems to always get piano, even when it's not Debussy. When they see the tiger, it's music that features echoey piano. When they have martinis and discuss the tiger, it's a Schubert (edit: actually, it's Debussy) song that features piano. When they make love it's very echoey piano. When they're having a romantic moment and Dolarhyde is watching "homework" it's a Debussy piano piece with Dolarhyde's creepy music poking in halfway through. When Dolarhyde breaks up with Reba, it's almost as if the piano and the strings are ebbing and flowing back and forth against each other. When Dolarhyde kidnaps and threatens Reba, guess what instrument we don't hear! Steve Yun fucked around with this message at 08:21 on Sep 1, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 07:21
|
|
|
Steve Yun posted:I'm not certain, but I would guess that the Debussy piece they picked features a piano to emphasize touch and hands, which is how Reba sees the world. Brilliant! (if that's what Reitzell was thinking) Dolarhyde gets a lot of different creepy instruments as his music. I'm skipping around right now and Reba seems to always get piano, even when it's not Debussy. This one took me completely out of the scene because I slowly realized that it was the theme to Jack Horkheimer: Stargazer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aq_QKTOgI30
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 08:04
|
|
|
cenotaph posted:This one took me completely out of the scene because I slowly realized that it was the theme to Jack Horkheimer: Stargazer That's actually the other Debussy song (Arabesque No. 1) from when they're having the martinis and she gets some of the D from Mr D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6s49OKp6aE The song (Preludes Book 1 L.117 #8) is when Dolarhyde is watching the film of Will's family. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE8wKFcd8wI edit: oops, I attributed Arabesque to Schubert, it's Debussy. Steve Yun fucked around with this message at 08:19 on Sep 1, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 08:12
|
|
|
Steve Yun posted:That's actually the Schubert song (Arabesque No. 1) from when they're having the martinis and she gets some of the D from Mr D That's the scene I meant, yeah. Not familiar with the composer names.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 08:16
|
|
|
Sorry, I hosed up. They're both Debussy songs. Debussy's Arabesque isn't too obscure and might fall into the category of "known by casual mainstream classical music listeners", but it doesn't really matter because Reba's not hoity-toity and the emphasis is on the choice of instrument rather than the choice of music to symbolize Reba. Steve Yun fucked around with this message at 08:24 on Sep 1, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 08:20
|
|
|
cenotaph posted:This one took me completely out of the scene because I slowly realized that it was the theme to Jack Horkheimer: Stargazer Hell yes, this is Isao Tomita's arrangement of Debussy's Arabesque No. 1  Here, listen to more of his stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD-b6mU3SYQ Edit: Steve Yun posted:The song (Preludes Book 1 L.117 #8) is when Dolarhyde is watching the film of Will's family. Have the Tomita arrangement of this one too, just because: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv97o588sLY FourLeaf fucked around with this message at 08:43 on Sep 1, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 08:36
|
|
|
Oh poo poo one other musical reference the show makes. In Sortbet when Will doesn't show up to his appointment, Hannibal gets lonely and you hear this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1-TrAvp_xs Mozart's Lacrimosa, from Amadeus. A movie about a guy who pretended to be a friend to someone else, but was secretly tormenting him and driving him to madness.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 09:22
|
|
|
Steve Yun posted:Oh poo poo one other musical reference the show makes. In Sortbet when Will doesn't show up to his appointment, Hannibal gets lonely and you hear this: I watched the movie Come and See and I can no longer enjoy this piece 
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 09:32
|
|
|
Love the analysis of the musical pieces, thanks Steve Yun! A dude cut together the "Will goes to visit Lecter in the BSHCI" scene from both movies and the show adaptation. It's fun to see the styles shift between the three. http://www.avclub.com/article/compare-competing-cannibals-same-red-dragon-scene--224669
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 09:45
|
|
|
Wiggy Marie posted:- Dolarhyde tries to stop for Reba's sake and fails when he sees Will Graham at his place of employment. Realizing that he's about to be caught, he goes full crazy, with the Dragon telling him that he needs to listen and the Dragon will get him out of this. So essentially, it's implied that if Will had never showed up, he might've been able to stop and live a happy life with Reba, never killing again. Way to go Will. Ahhhhh, now I see where Dark Knight Returns might've gotten that idea. In it, Joker is rehabilitated and is at a mental hospital, but after seeing on the news that Batman came back out of retirement, he goes crazy again.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 18:05
|
|
|
Wiggy Marie posted:A dude cut together the "Will goes to visit Lecter in the BSHCI" scene from both movies and the show adaptation. It's fun to see the styles shift between the three. quote:As for Ratner’s take—well, he sure did keep the camera on his actors, didn’t he? Well done, Ratner. Yay Brett! 
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 22:11
|
|
|
Wiggy Marie posted:A dude cut together the "Will goes to visit Lecter in the BSHCI" scene from both movies and the show adaptation. It's fun to see the styles shift between the three. I want to see the "I owe you awe" scenes cut together in this way. Also I've never seen Red Dragon and wow, people are not kidding about the ham levels
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 22:20
|
|
|
H.P. Shivcraft posted:My hunch, given the way the plots are getting jumbled from the books, is thus: Hahahah, drat. I actually feel like this is sort of an anticlimax or disappointment if only by this point I was tired of Hannibal "winning" -- or Will having to deal with his ineffable murder tendencies, or whatever. Anyway what I liked was all of the not terribly latent homoeroticism of dudes plunging things into each other and then fondly embracing.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 23:35
|
|
|
qbert posted:Good ending to the series. This was my same interpretation. Just skimmed the AVclub review and they were on the nose about how the season started and ended, with Hannibal free and Bedelia his prisoner (albeit a prisoner in her mind at the end). Ugh. I hadn't had the chance to watch the last 4 episodes because of this stupid scheduling poo poo and wanting to avoid Canada spoilers, I binged it all today and I am feel utterly worn out. What a gorgeous finale and it this whole half season has just been such a wild roller coaster of expectations being subverted after just recently reading the book. (now to catch up on this thread!) Oh, I also want to mention that my favorite gag of the whole series is that Chilton just won't loving die hope and vaseline fucked around with this message at 00:04 on Sep 2, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 23:55
|
|
|
Steve Yun posted:Oh poo poo one other musical reference the show makes. In Sortbet when Will doesn't show up to his appointment, Hannibal gets lonely and you hear this: Salieri wasn't pretending to be his friend in that film. They were rivals. The point of the whole film was that Salieri was confessing to a priest because Salieri believed he was the reason Mozart died. That was brought about by Salieri tricking him into believing that there was a royal benefactor paying him to write the requiem but it was in fact Salieri. In real life Salieri and Mozart were friendly rivals and by all accounts didn't hate each other at all.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2015 02:15
|
|
|
I'm really sad we probably won't get any more of this great show, but it was fun while it lasted! If I were going to do a season 4 it would focus on Miriam Lass and Chilton; Miriam would no doubt be mega hosed up and guilty about shooting Chilton / what was done to her / etc, plus all the additional poo poo that happens to Chilton has obviously driven him over the edge / would inspire more grief in Miriam, *bam* you've got someone in need of a skin-suit and someone else to gather the raw materials without being so obviously deformed (and who thanks to Hannibal's prep-work is vulnerable / pliable enough for someone of Chilton's skill to manipulate)
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2015 02:48
|
|
|
Doltos posted:Salieri wasn't pretending to be his friend in that film. Salieri told Mozart that he would speak to the Emperor on his behalf in regards to the ballet in his opera. This made Mozart think that Salieri was his friend. He also confided a lot of his frustrations to Salieri, and told him how much he appreciated his friendship when he got sick. Mozart also talked a lot of poo poo about Salieri behind his back. They were both pretending to be friends to each other and both backstabbing each other in the movie. edit: Salieri even tells the priest that his plan was to get Mozart to write a requiem and kill him, then play the requiem at Mozart's funeral as his duty as a dear and close friend, pawning off the requiem as his own. Steve Yun fucked around with this message at 04:54 on Sep 2, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2015 04:43
|
|
|
Yeah, I don't know what he was like in real life, but in the movie Mozart is a huge rear end in a top hat who just so happens to be astonishingly talented. Salieri recognizes and understands his genius even if the crowd/Emperor does not (it didn't conform to the norms of what was considered "good", while Salieri's work did) but he also resents it immensely, because he understands he will never be as talented as Mozart no matter how hard he tries. Really, nobody comes out of that film looking good.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2015 04:55
|
|
|
This show is nothing more than a Nine Inch Nails video featuring Marilyn Manson and Aphex Twin, and it is loving awesome
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2015 05:15
|
|
|
While I would love to see a Buffalo Fred, I think Chilton's penchant for survival requires that he forever be a plain old rube stuck in a universe of rube goldberg schemes and gambits.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2015 05:15
|
|
|
Hannibal and Will are dead, unless the show gets unexpectedly saved by Starz or something. "Can't live with him, can't live without him," as Bedelia said, so Will's only option really was not to live. It makes thematic sense and is utterly satisfying. Bedelia cooked her own leg out of fear and Hannibal's inescapable influence (thus showing that Hannibal's poisonous charisma outlasts his physical death); people quibbling about the logistics of how this was possible do not understand the show.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2015 07:42
|
|
|
Falstaff Infection posted:Hannibal and Will are dead, unless the show gets unexpectedly saved by Starz or something. "Can't live with him, can't live without him," as Bedelia said, so Will's only option really was not to live. It makes thematic sense and is utterly satisfying. Bedelia cooked her own leg out of fear and Hannibal's inescapable influence (thus showing that Hannibal's poisonous charisma outlasts his physical death); people quibbling about the logistics of how this was possible do not understand the show. So Fuller and Poon are lying when they say Hannibal and Bedelia are preparing to eat her leg at that end cut?
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2015 08:24
|
|
SoroScrew
|
hard counter posted:While I would love to see a Buffalo Fred, I think Chilton's penchant for survival requires that he forever be a plain old rube stuck in a universe of rube goldberg schemes and gambits. But in one of the posted interviews, Fuller did say that his dream casting for Jame Gumb would be Lee Pace, which would own insanely and be incredible. Any clever retooling of the existing cast would still pale in comparison to that, for me. I'd assume Miriam Lass would be important for Jack's arc, more than anyone else. She's his first great failure, of a life he destroyed through his callousness. The second, of course, would be Will himself...a decent man who'd have lived a quiet life if Jack had simply left him alone. It'd only make sense, if the show continued, for Jack to realize the toxic nature of his influence, throwing vulnerable people to the wolves. Buffalo Bill would make a great motivator for Jack to coerce a *third* person to join his crusade. And Clarice Starling's similarity to Miriam Lass makes the comparison between the two necessary. Miriam should haunt Jack, like Abigail did with Will. And it'd be great for Jack's new reliance on Clarice to conjure that guilt. Also, it'd be cool if the mechanism that brought Will and Hannibal back into Jack's orbit was actually Will himself, hearing about Jack's new wunderkind and intervening, either out of jealousy, spite, or vengeance.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2015 08:39
|
|
|
Paradox Personified posted:So Fuller and Poon are lying when they say Hannibal and Bedelia are preparing to eat her leg at that end cut? Of course they're not, they certainly believe that's what happens. That doesn't mean their interpretation is the only one that's valid.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2015 08:47
|
|
|
Honestly, the idea of Hannibal's evil persisting after death and still ruining lives is a stronger ending than Will and Hannibal being immortal superhumans who can survive falling off a massive cliff. It's fine if that's not the "canon" ending, but it's the one I prefer as well.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2015 09:01
|
|
|
FourLeaf posted:Honestly, the idea of Hannibal's evil persisting after death and still ruining lives is a stronger ending than Will and Hannibal being immortal superhumans who can survive falling off a massive cliff. It's fine if that's not the "canon" ending, but it's the one I prefer as well. This pretty much. I like the idea of it being open. I don't like when you get an ambiguous ending and the creator just says "nah"
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2015 09:32
|
|
|
Falstaff Infection posted:Hannibal and Will are dead, unless the show gets unexpectedly saved by Starz or something. Even in the Hannibal universe there's no conceivable way either of them could have survived. The only person who could would be Chilton, and even then only as like, a head in a jar. I think the finale was fantastic, even without taking into account the reduced circumstances of the show. Given how the show chopped up bits of Red Dragon and Hannibal from the first episode, if they ever did Silence of the Lambs it would have to be a pretty straight adaptation and they'd be up against one of the best novel adaptations ever. I'm happy enough for the show to end here.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2015 10:06
|
|
|
FourLeaf posted:Honestly, the idea of Hannibal's evil persisting after death and still ruining lives Just not the rest of it which requires a panicked Bedelia sawing her foot off, cooking and serving it and then waiting for someone to have dinner with. That I find just dumb. As a theory it may have some eerie factor and you can entertain it for a minute or two, but it doesn't hold for longer than that. Hannibal's evil persisting could mean that a copycat is in town, or one of his victims that survived are now (somehow) getting their revenge... And honestly, Hannibal and Will surviving the fall, even though it would subtract a lot from the impact of the finale scene, is more probable considering what we have been shown in the course of the series and in last season's finale in particular.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2015 10:07
|
|
|
joedevola posted:Even in the Hannibal universe there's no conceivable way either of them could have survived. I mean, this was the ending before they knew the show was cancelled. You think Season 5 would have been without Will or Hannibal?
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2015 11:32
|
|
|
Realized this morning that I was indeed wrong about which Hannibal letter Jack keeps from Will. Will gets the letter from Hannibal congratulating him for his murders of Hobbs and Lounds, and while Will disagrees about Hobbs, he admits Lecter may be a little right about Lounds. The letter Jack holds on to is the "I hope you won't be too ugly" letter. I believe this is also the letter with the "any civilized society would either kill me or give me my books" line, but once again I'm not positive.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2015 12:02
|
|
|
joedevola posted:Even in the Hannibal universe there's no conceivable way either of them could have survived. The only person who could would be Chilton, and even then only as like, a head in a jar. Chilton changes his name to Benjamin? 
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2015 12:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jan 17, 2026 07:46 |
|
|
FourLeaf posted:
My wife and I weren't laughing, but rather glancing at each other going "huh?" every so often. Most obvious to us was after the van goes off the road and FBI guys are getting shot (must have been FBI from season one of The Following. Seriously, how inept did Fuller have to make them all to have them all pretty much get shot in the head one by one while they sat there all unknowing), where they flash Armitage's face from what I think was the museum elevator scene... because reasons? There was a lot of "reasons" reasoning for much of the episode. Mostly the "reason" that Fuller wanted to simply wrap it up. Half of the dialogue I could just barely make out: Mad's mushmouth, tooth fairie's cleft pallet, Chilton's no lips, will mumbling in a low monotone. We went into this viewing just wanting to get it over since we came this far. Like others after it was finished, a sense of relief that we need never again watch NBC washed over us. I like to think that Bedellia was in the dining room the whole second half of the episode, while Will, Hannibal and TF were out in the smoking room having pre-dinner drinks. After the fight in the next room then the showdown outside and then over the cliff they went... they should have shone Bedellia sitting there awakening from the drugged stupor all "guys? Guys?" followed by a Seinfeld bass line.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2015 14:24
|
|