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Carthag Tuek
Oct 15, 2005

Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
slægt skal følge slægters gang




There's a project to transcribe the burial protocols from the municipality of Copenhagen from 1861 to 1942, this includes not only name/gender/age, but also occupation, address, & cause of death, so you can map it out in interesting ways.

They're still only partially transcribed, but it's super interesting to see the sudden leaps and changes in life expectancy with germ theory, penicillin, etc. I thought I had a link to some graphs but I don't, so that's the awful part of this post I guess.

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Phlegmish
Jul 2, 2011




Peanut Butler posted:

lol it also does the thing where the average is skewed by infant mortality

because, y'know, lots and lots of ppl born in 1955 made it past 2007

The graph clearly says life expectancy at birth, if you want life expectancy at, say, five years, you...calculate life expectancy at five years.

Infant mortality does skew people's perceptions, especially where the historical past is concerned, but it's very common for organisations to calculate life expectancy from birth instead of picking an arbitrary age.

Lutha Mahtin
Oct 10, 2010

Your brokebrain sin is absolved...go and shitpost no more!


a phrase that's stuck with me was when i was once told by a baby boomer that "people don't 'just die' like the used to". they meant it as basically just recognizing that people used to up and croak from all kinds of stuff compared to present-day developed countries

Hippie Hedgehog
Feb 19, 2007

Ever cuddled a hedgehog?

klafbang posted:

Sure, but that means you can only compare the values for developed countries in "recent times." Which is a) super limited and b) not what is happening.

Again, you're not wrong about statistics, you're just missing my point: LEB is still used everywhere, for better of for worse, even when better comparators are available.
I suppose that one reason is that LEB is (marginally) easier for the general public to understand. (I know, that's a lovely reason but that's the news for you.) Another might be:

Dilb posted:

Improvements in life expectancy at age 10 aren't just due to old people getting a few more years in, it's a result of a lot fewer young people randomly dying.

Which means when discussing olden times, it's hella hard to pick a "right" starting age. And in fact, the "right" starting age will be different for different societies and different times, making any comparison useless.

BTW I'll bet those young people randomly dying were mostly at work in the agricultural sector...

Hippie Hedgehog has a new favorite as of 06:55 on May 12, 2019

Carthag Tuek
Oct 15, 2005

Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
slægt skal følge slægters gang




Lutha Mahtin posted:

a phrase that's stuck with me was when i was once told by a baby boomer that "people don't 'just die' like the used to". they meant it as basically just recognizing that people used to up and croak from all kinds of stuff compared to present-day developed countries

that boomer made that up

cause of death inquests have been a thing for at least 250 years

Peanut Butler
Jul 25, 2003





Phlegmish posted:

The graph clearly says life expectancy at birth, if you want life expectancy at, say, five years, you...calculate life expectancy at five years.

Infant mortality does skew people's perceptions, especially where the historical past is concerned, but it's very common for organisations to calculate life expectancy from birth instead of picking an arbitrary age.

yah someone itt has already told me that thing I already knew-

it's still potentially misleading depending on its original context, since most folks don't know what that means- the sorta thing that led to the old saw of 'wow 25 was old age in medieval times'

Henchman of Santa
Aug 21, 2010


Krankenstyle posted:

that boomer made that up

cause of death inquests have been a thing for at least 250 years

I think he just means people used to die unexpectedly far more often than they do now.

Plastik
Oct 14, 2005

ARE YOU TELLING ME SITTING HERE DOING NOTHING ISN'T HELPING? DAMN, WELL YOU JUST CONVINCED ME NOT TO TRY AT ALL!


Lipstick Apathy

Henchman of Santa posted:

I think he just means people used to die unexpectedly far more often than they do now.

It's also valid to say that people spend a lot more time dying now than they used to. For example, we can and often do extend a terminal cancer patient's life by years with non-curative care, which was not nearly so true just two decades ago.

Lutha Mahtin
Oct 10, 2010

Your brokebrain sin is absolved...go and shitpost no more!


Krankenstyle posted:

that boomer made that up

cause of death inquests have been a thing for at least 250 years

i think my use of quotation marks gave the wrong impression. it wasn't meant as "oh uncle bill just died nobody knew what it was" but more as in people just dropped like flies for many reasons that they don't any more. it was a comment on how people used to talk about death more casually since it happened more often

also this person is retired from their nursing career now and has given up trying to politely correct anti-vaxxers because (paraphrased) "i started scaring myself with how mad i was getting at them and they just wouldn't listen at all and were usually so rude"

Carthag Tuek
Oct 15, 2005

Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
slægt skal følge slægters gang




right, my bad

there is an insistence to having a precise cause of death when it's just "they got old and that was it" so they write morbus cordis or somthing and thats like ok yeah thats the actual "cause" but its not why they died

Kennel
May 1, 2008

BAWWW-UNH!


Related:


Traffic fatalities in Finland. It's been less than 300 for last ten years (often even less than 250)

The number of cars was four times smaller in the late 60's and early 70's, but there was no speed limits or requirement for safety belts, and the cars and the roads were lovely. I've heard people saying that it was pretty common to drive as fast as your car could go.

Granted, these numbers were "only" 2-3% of all deaths, but they were probably mostly relatively young people.

Aramoro
Jun 1, 2012






Cause of death is really interesting, Heart disease is killing more people in the UK now, like 3% up on previous years. But it's not that Heart diseasehas become more dangerous as such (Rates are up due to obesity and diabetes) , it's just that we've made it much much harder to die from other things, so proportionally Heart disease is killing more people.

Albino Squirrel
Apr 25, 2003
<img alt="" border="0" src="https://fi.somethingawful.com/customtitles/title-albino_squirrel.gif" /><br />Miosis more like meiosis


Krankenstyle posted:

right, my bad

there is an insistence to having a precise cause of death when it's just "they got old and that was it" so they write morbus cordis or somthing and thats like ok yeah thats the actual "cause" but its not why they died
God, that drives me crazy. I see people filling out death certificates as 'cardiac arrest due to respiratory failure due to pneumonia' and I'm all JUST WRITE PNEUMONIA! It fucks up the stats if you don't write pneumonia!


Technically you could define death as 'cerebral hypoxia caused by cardiac arrest caused by ACTUAL CAUSE' for about 90% of causes of death, but that's only true in the most pedantic of senses, and doesn't give you any useful information on a population level.

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007





Albino Squirrel posted:

God, that drives me crazy. I see people filling out death certificates as 'cardiac arrest due to respiratory failure due to pneumonia' and I'm all JUST WRITE PNEUMONIA! It fucks up the stats if you don't write pneumonia!

Because of issues like this, official death statistics are grossly underestimating deaths due to diabetes.

quote:

When both diabetes and heart disease are listed on a death certificate, the decision to list diabetes as the primary cause of death is “highly variable,” said Andrew Stokes, assistant professor of global health at Boston University’s School of Public Health. “Often times, the [death certificate] certifier will code the death as being caused by heart disease rather than a death from diabetes,” he added. “So to some extent, deaths that should be attributed to diabetes go to other causes.”

For new research in the journal PLoS One, Stokes and his co-author Samuel Preston of the University of Pennsylvania decided to look at more granular administrative records and surveys — the National Health Interview Study and the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey — to find out whether they could estimate how often diabetes might be the primary but overlooked cause of death.

To come up with an estimate, they calculated the prevalence of diabetes in the population and the increased risk of death among people with diabetes during five years of follow up.

Their results were astounding. While death certificates usually suggest that around 3.5 percent of deaths were caused by diabetes, the researchers found the number may be closer to 12 percent — three times higher than the typical estimates. Among obese individuals, the death rate from diabetes was even higher, at 19 percent.

That means that while diabetes is generally listed as the seventh most common cause of death in America, said Stokes, their results suggest it’s probably the third leading cause of death after cancer and heart disease.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

I'm the babyliberal, gotta love me!


Squalid posted:

Tech thread I'm sorry but I thought y'all needed to see this supremely cursed infographic

Bonus if you can guess who paid to have this monstrosity published before reaching the end.


Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"



I'm going to be sick.

Hexyflexy
Sep 2, 2011

asymptotically approaching one



Who in the name of gently caress drew that.

Fanged Lawn Wormy
Jan 4, 2008

SQUEAK! SQUEAK! SQUEAK!


hErE's WhY TeSlA wIlL bE tHe CeNtEr oF iT aLl

*literal mention of Elon's dedication to overpromising and underdelivering, followed by pie-in-the-sky promises, a derailment of the theme of assembly lines and efficiency, and finally punctuated showing literal rows of quality test-fail teslas rotting in the desert*

TinTower
Apr 21, 2010

You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.


Absurd Alhazred posted:

Musk cock-sucking.

Sustainability means more toxic sludge lakes in Mongolia and the more toxic sludge lakes there are, the more sustainable it is.

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

Jozy loves scoring like a fat kid loves eating cake.





Kennel posted:

Related:


Traffic fatalities in Finland. It's been less than 300 for last ten years (often even less than 250)

The number of cars was four times smaller in the late 60's and early 70's, but there was no speed limits or requirement for safety belts, and the cars and the roads were lovely. I've heard people saying that it was pretty common to drive as fast as your car could go.

Granted, these numbers were "only" 2-3% of all deaths, but they were probably mostly relatively young people.

Cars are also a lot safer now than they were then, there have been a lot of advances in technology designed to keep the people inside the car safe during an accident. Just look at this for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPF4fBGNK0U

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"



Meanwhile with everyone driving around super safe-for-the-driver tanks pedestrian deaths are skyrocketing

Platystemon
Feb 13, 2012



Lutha Mahtin posted:

a phrase that's stuck with me was when i was once told by a baby boomer that "people don't 'just die' like the used to". they meant it as basically just recognizing that people used to up and croak from all kinds of stuff compared to present-day developed countries

Not one American has died of old age since 1951.

Peanut Butler
Jul 25, 2003





Platystemon posted:

Not one American has died of old age since 1951.

can confirm
my great gramma was born in 1898 and the wolves got her in 2009
it's mad world we live in and I guess death by wolf is the new normal

Shai-Hulud
Jul 10, 2008

But it feels so right!


Lipstick Apathy


I do like that they included a lot of Teslas just standing in the desert next to the factory in the last pic. Thats pretty realistic at least!

Sereri
Sep 30, 2008

awwwrigami



Platystemon posted:

Not one American has died of old age since 1951.

That's not what they meant and you know it.

What they are referring to is that people would just spontaneously explode in a violent fashion, and for some reason this no longer happens. Its where the term baby boomer is coming from by the way.

System Metternich
Feb 28, 2010

But what did he mean by that?



Baronjutter posted:

Meanwhile with everyone driving around super safe-for-the-driver tanks pedestrian deaths are skyrocketing

Do you mean absolutely or relatively? I looked at the data for Germany and at least there fatal accidents have been decreasing across the board in all manners of traffic participation (8,549 total traffic-related deaths in 1997 vs 3,180 in 2017). It might be though that the percentage of killed pedestrians is higher than it used to be with 13,4% in 1997 and 15,2% twenty years later, but that might also be a statistical fluke (I'm on mobile and can't be arsed to calculate the percentages for the last twenty years right now )

I think that besides improved car safety one of the main reasons for the strong decline of traffic accidents is also that a) alcohol consumption is declining and b) DUIs have stopped being a minor "boys will be boys" infraction and often see harsh sentences instead. In 1997, 1,447 people died due to an alcohol-related accident which accounted for almost 17% of all traffic deaths. By 2017, that number had shrunk to 231 (7,3%).

jeebus bob
Nov 4, 2004

In sum, this was less a sexual assault than a botched third-world pickup line.

Albino Squirrel posted:

God, that drives me crazy. I see people filling out death certificates as 'cardiac arrest due to respiratory failure due to pneumonia' and I'm all JUST WRITE PNEUMONIA! It fucks up the stats if you don't write pneumonia!


Technically you could define death as 'cerebral hypoxia caused by cardiac arrest caused by ACTUAL CAUSE' for about 90% of causes of death, but that's only true in the most pedantic of senses, and doesn't give you any useful information on a population level.

I don't know where you're from but in Denmark they're required to do it that way, specifically for statistical reasons.

The health data authority has an "AI" that picks out the underlying cause, regardless of the order it was written in. Said AI is under continuous development by medical professionals in several countries, and of course there is tons of more or less manual quality control. So probably not infinitely infallible, but pretty good.

The diabetes examples is Interesting, and almost certainly will be debated at the next IRIS convention, though I haven't seen an abstract list yet.

https://www.dimdi.de/dynamic/de/kla.../iris-institut/

Stoatbringer
Sep 15, 2004

naw, you love it
you little ho-bot




BonHair posted:

I like the accidental downward slope, implying that we're below 0 Kelvin.

Well, you have to take windchill into account.

Lutha Mahtin
Oct 10, 2010

Your brokebrain sin is absolved...go and shitpost no more!


System Metternich posted:

Do you mean absolutely or relatively? I looked at the data for Germany and at least there fatal accidents have been decreasing across the board in all manners of traffic participation (8,549 total traffic-related deaths in 1997 vs 3,180 in 2017). It might be though that the percentage of killed pedestrians is higher than it used to be with 13,4% in 1997 and 15,2% twenty years later, but that might also be a statistical fluke (I'm on mobile and can't be arsed to calculate the percentages for the last twenty years right now )

i think they were referring to how americans are continuing to shift towards buying more and more big huge SUVs and trucks. on these vehicles the grille of the car is higher vertically than a sedan, so it smashes more into the torso/head of a pedestrian versus smashing into the pedestrian's legs

Nenonen
Oct 22, 2009



Fallen Rib



ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007






You've probably heard at some point that while every language has a word for a child who's lost their parents, no language has a word for parent's who've lost children. People often think that it's because that's just too sad to contemplate, but that's only because they don't know how common that used to be (and still is in many parts of the world).

Der Kyhe
Jun 25, 2008

Think something witty and pretend it's written here.



ultrafilter posted:

You've probably heard at some point that while every language has a word for a child who's lost their parents, no language has a word for parent's who've lost children. People often think that it's because that's just too sad to contemplate, but that's only because they don't know how common that used to be (and still is in many parts of the world).

Because of this, there are/were some (very small and usually tribal) cultures where the child was given a name and become "a person" only after their third birthday. Infant fatality used to be so high that it was more merciful to not think infants and toddlers as real people.

pangstrom
Jan 25, 2003



Wedge Regret

That chart is less awful in the context of being the first pane in a time series (I still would have broken up the brick red into two colors but whatever, that would work a bit against "the story")
https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality

Vavrek
Mar 2, 2013

I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?

ultrafilter posted:

You've probably heard at some point that while every language has a word for a child who's lost their parents, no language has a word for parent's who've lost children. People often think that it's because that's just too sad to contemplate, but that's only because they don't know how common that used to be (and still is in many parts of the world).

I hadn't heard that and it's going to stick with me.

Thanks?

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

Jozy loves scoring like a fat kid loves eating cake.






Greenland and Western Sahara are the true historical constants

zedprime
Jun 9, 2007

yospos


Initially started parsing this as a joke map about how everybody born in 1800 is dead, then saw the scale.

Panty Saluter
Jan 17, 2004

Making learning fun!



so red indicates 30 to more than 50%. got it

Poops Mcgoots
Jul 12, 2010



Der Kyhe posted:

Because of this, there are/were some (very small and usually tribal) cultures where the child was given a name and become "a person" only after their third birthday. Infant fatality used to be so high that it was more merciful to not think infants and toddlers as real people.

Life begins at the third birthday. Write to your Congress people today in favor of second year abortions!

Der Kyhe
Jun 25, 2008

Think something witty and pretend it's written here.



Poops Mcgoots posted:

Life begins at the third birthday. Write to your Congress people today in favor of second year abortions!

Yes. Without modern medicare, medicine, vaccinations, knowledge or access to hygiene, famine, diseases, epidemics, unstable living conditions and pure bad luck with the weather conditions, poisonings or accidents, this was the harsh truth for many people.

If the baby was not talking and moving on its own power, walking preferably, it was more merciful to think that it wasn't in fact a full person yet so the tragedy was much easier to handle, and explain to oneself. Considering, how gently caress horrible has your living environment to be, when mentally writing off a death of your child is shaping your culture.

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Paladinus
Jan 11, 2014






Der Kyhe posted:

Yes. Without modern medicare, medicine, vaccinations, knowledge or access to hygiene, famine, diseases, epidemics, unstable living conditions and pure bad luck with the weather conditions, poisonings or accidents, this was the harsh truth for many people.

If the baby was not talking and moving on its own power, walking preferably, it was more merciful to think that it wasn't in fact a full person yet so the tragedy was much easier to handle, and explain to oneself. Considering, how gently caress horrible has your living environment to be, when mentally writing off a death of your child is shaping your culture.

Continuing your logic, we don't consider foetuses humans for the same reason. Is that what you're getting at?

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