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AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them


Grimey Drawer

Beer4TheBeerGod posted:

I don't expect anything to happen, I just think it's funny that it's even a possibility.

Yeah, I think there's more chance Derek will sue some idiot reddit clown than CIG just because it won't really matter, CIG will either produce something playable in the next few months or not.

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Eldragon
Feb 22, 2003



AP posted:

It's now November 2015, the RSI TOS at one time used to refer to "Accordingly, you agree that any unearned portion of the deposit shall not be refundable until and unless RSI has failed to deliver the pledge items and/or the Game to you within 12 months after the estimated delivery date.", the original estimated delivery date was November 2014, so we've now hit the deadline. It also said "In the unlikely event that RSI is not able to deliver the Game and/or the pledge items, RSI agrees to post an audited cost accounting on its website to fully explain the use of the deposits for the Game Cost and the Pledge Item Cost."

Some people think this TOS stuff is important and a gotcha to CIG, I'm not sure the TOS is important at all to individual backers as if something even looks like it could come to court it makes much more sense of CIG to just fully refund the backer who's unhappy. But if Derek Smart is trying to get access to the books maybe the "audited cost" part helps him.

They do refund people and that's happened since Derek got involved, so that's a change, everything else is guesswork as to what he's really going to do (if anything).

CIG can safely ignore their own TOS clause about audited cost accounting until a backer with enough money decides to sue to enforce it. Honestly I think DSmart wasted the chance to really stick it to CIG. He should have stayed quiet until today, THEN demanded to see the audit.

But gently caress it, someone write a good effort post on why CIG should follow their own TOS and post the Cost Accounting and I'll put in on the brown sea. Time to go straight from 0 strikes to Permaban

kordansk
Sep 12, 2011


http://www.forbes.com/sites/chancebarnett/2015/10/30/sec-approves-title-iii-of-jobs-act-equity-crowdfunding-with-non-accredited/

Starkk
Dec 31, 2008




i sent an email oct 4 to get the rest of my account refunded, after 3 emails they still haven't 'actioned' the refund

i just want offfffffff :gary:

Octopode
Sep 2, 2009

No. I work here. I manage operations for this and integration for this, while making sure that their stuff keeps working in here.

Eldragon posted:

CIG can safely ignore their own TOS clause about audited cost accounting until a backer with enough money decides to sue to enforce it. Honestly I think DSmart wasted the chance to really stick it to CIG. He should have stayed quiet until today, THEN demanded to see the audit.

But gently caress it, someone write a good effort post on why CIG should follow their own TOS and post the Cost Accounting and I'll put in on the brown sea. Time to go straight from 0 strikes to Permaban

Except that, in order to post it on the brown sea, one would have to first accept the terms of the updated TOS with the updated 18 month time frame, making it a bit of an empty point--since the TOS covers the RSI website as part of the service. Reddit would be a better venue, but less satisfying results.

AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them


Grimey Drawer

Octopode posted:

Except that, in order to post it on the brown sea, one would have to first accept the terms of the updated TOS with the updated 18 month time frame, making it a bit of an empty point--since the TOS covers the RSI website as part of the service. Reddit would be a better venue, but less satisfying results.

It really confuses me that people give the TOS so much power. The idea behind a TOS is basically it's a get out of jail free card, you can write whatever you want as very few people read them so you've inventing rules for a potential dispute between your company and the customer. As a sane person will want your company to always win, therefore the best TOS is one written in such as way as to ensure your company always wins.

That's why courts largely ignore them, they aren't fair.

The only thing I think is interesting about the 12 month refund thing is that CIG was stupid enough to ever think it was a good idea to put that in writing, then they thought adding another 6 months to it was also a good idea. But I guess for a long time it worked because people would point to the TOS and say "nope, you can't have a refund, it's a donation the ships are free", until Derek Smart got involved and suddenly that's all bollocks and email for a refund if you want one but we'll be really unhappy about it and ignore you for weeks..

Maybe it's because I'm in the EU, I think the whole thing is stupid.

fuctifino
Jun 11, 2001




Starkk posted:

i sent an email oct 4 to get the rest of my account refunded, after 3 emails they still haven't 'actioned' the refund

i just want offfffffff :gary:

Write to them saying that you are going to be issuing a chargeback tomorrow.

This has been the only way that other goons have successfully been refunded by CIG (They won't want chargebacks)

BigMouthSingers
Oct 15, 2015

I still subscribe because the puzzlebox tells me to.

Star Citizen.... you're playing right now.


This whole publisher thing, I don't get it. Even if they don't use a publisher, aren't they just self publishing? I'm also not sure I understand the vitriol aimed at publishers. I've seen poo poo decisions made by some publishers, but not all. Yes a publisher would not let you do what you wanted, but then I'm not sure if constantly paying to distribute 30GB+ downloads to your community is a wise use of funds either. Where are the checks and balances?

Also the whole PC master race thing. I liked that aspect of their marketing. I have fond memories of the PC exclusive back in the day. Why did they aim for PC exclusive? Was it purely marketing or was it an engineering decision? Both the PS4 and Xbox One (and Nintendo NX if you believe rumours) are X86-64 which means they could have a build. I understand consoles limitations, but the thing is would having the goal of releasing some content to console provided the restraint that CIG desperately needed at the very beginning of development? Ironically have CIG been hoist by their own petard when it comes to building a PC exclusive for Star Citizen?

TehRedWheelbarrow
Mar 16, 2011





Fan of Britches

:gary: paaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrp

Starkk
Dec 31, 2008




fuctifino posted:

Write to them saying that you are going to be issuing a chargeback tomorrow.

This has been the only way that other goons have successfully been refunded by CIG (They won't want chargebacks)

yeah i might just do that :gary:

Berious
Nov 13, 2005


fuctifino posted:

Write to them saying that you are going to be issuing a chargeback tomorrow.

This has been the only way that other goons have successfully been refunded.

I like to think there is a big flashing light and airhorns that go off in the CIG offices whenever someone emails the word "chargeback"

They probably all run around flailing their arms about too

The Pi dude
Oct 19, 2013


Buglord

Berious posted:

I like to think there is a big flashing light and airhorns that go off in the CIG offices whenever someone emails the word "chargeback"

They probably all run around flailing their arms about too

:siren::gary::siren: "PAAAAAAAAAARRP!" :derp: :homebrew:

Blue On Blue
Nov 14, 2012



BigMouthSingers posted:

This whole publisher thing, I don't get it. Even if they don't use a publisher, aren't they just self publishing? I'm also not sure I understand the vitriol aimed at publishers. I've seen poo poo decisions made by some publishers, but not all. Yes a publisher would not let you do what you wanted, but then I'm not sure if constantly paying to distribute 30GB+ downloads to your community is a wise use of funds either. Where are the checks and balances?

Also the whole PC master race thing. I liked that aspect of their marketing. I have fond memories of the PC exclusive back in the day. Why did they aim for PC exclusive? Was it purely marketing or was it an engineering decision? Both the PS4 and Xbox One (and Nintendo NX if you believe rumours) are X86-64 which means they could have a build. I understand consoles limitations, but the thing is would having the goal of releasing some content to console provided the restraint that CIG desperately needed at the very beginning of development? Ironically have CIG been hoist by their own petard when it comes to building a PC exclusive for Star Citizen?

It was a marketing tactic, and it worked

They knew by vilifying the 'big evil publisher' it would give them a common ground with the internet nerds, cause everyone likes to help out the little guy struggling against big corporate entities.

If they can manage to stay afloat another year I wouldn't be surprised if we see 'Cloud Imperium Publishing' being incorporated to add to the list of 20 other companies they've opened

Octopode
Sep 2, 2009

No. I work here. I manage operations for this and integration for this, while making sure that their stuff keeps working in here.

AP posted:

It really confuses me that people give the TOS so much power. The idea behind a TOS is basically it's a get out of jail free card, you can write whatever you want as very few people read them so you've inventing rules for a potential dispute between your company and the customer. As a sane person will want your company to always win, therefore the best TOS is one written in such as way as to ensure your company always wins.

That's why courts largely ignore them, they aren't fair.

The only thing I think is interesting about the 12 month refund thing is that CIG was stupid enough to ever think it was a good idea to put that in writing, then they thought adding another 6 months to it was also a good idea. But I guess for a long time it worked because people would point to the TOS and say "nope, you can't have a refund, it's a donation the ships are free", until Derek Smart got involved and suddenly that's all bollocks and email for a refund if you want one but we'll be really unhappy about it and ignore you for weeks..

Maybe it's because I'm in the EU, I think the whole thing is stupid.

In the US, at least, TOSes have been routinely upheld in court cases so long as they are properly presented and agreed to by users, particularly when they must be agreed to prior to entering into a service agreement. Those only available to the consumer after purchase are much less successful.

But the legal arguments weren't really my point so much as the rhetorical. If your going in position is arguing about something in the TOS should compel action on CIG's part, you've already conceded that the agreement is at least valid and applicable for the sake of your argument, and that would include the provisions allowing modification with assent.

As for why they include it--many US states defer to vendor-provided refund policies if provided at the time of purchase, but are more consumer friendly if no such policy is available.

A Neurotic Jew
Feb 17, 2012

by exmarx


Stevefin posted:

I am so keeping an eye on this thread for the next 24 hours

quote:

Where is the bomb shell Derek. Where is it.

He may be filing today (or more likely during business hours monday) but if he is, he won't be announcing it until Tuesday. So you may want to hold on to your limited stock of F5's.

Mekchu
Apr 10, 2012



Eonwe posted:

Happy TOS day

It's also my birthday, and this birthday cake I just had is pretty good.

I hope Derek Smart got me a good present.

Berious
Nov 13, 2005


The Pi dude posted:

:siren::gary::siren: "PAAAAAAAAAARRP!" :derp: :homebrew:

Exactly like that!

Octopode
Sep 2, 2009

No. I work here. I manage operations for this and integration for this, while making sure that their stuff keeps working in here.

Unfunny Poster posted:

It's also my birthday, and this birthday cake I just had is pretty good.

I hope Derek Smart got me a good present.

Is your idea of a good present another unsigned lawyer letter with no chance of a lawsuit being filed?

Because if so, good news!

AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them


Grimey Drawer

Octopode posted:

In the US, at least, TOSes have been routinely upheld in court cases so long as they are properly presented and agreed to by users, particularly when they must be agreed to prior to entering into a service agreement. Those only available to the consumer after purchase are much less successful.

Yeah, I got your point and don't have a problem with it. The difference is just odd, there seems to be a theme that if something stupid is written down you're still got to pay attention to it, which isn't really as true over here as the meaning and intention behind the words is also considered.

EminusSleepus
Sep 28, 2015



Octopode posted:

Is your idea of a good present another unsigned lawyer letter with no chance of a lawsuit being filed?

Because if so, good news!

Is it better than a signed lawyer letter with all the "drop it or I'll sue you" rant but got no balls to follow through?

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK
Sep 11, 2001





yay octopode is back :neckbeard:

Mekchu
Apr 10, 2012



Octopode posted:

Is your idea of a good present another unsigned lawyer letter with no chance of a lawsuit being filed?

Because if so, good news!

I don't know, it'd be funny regardless of it coinciding with my birthday. I imagine it'd be on par with that multi-page rant that took a 47 year old "game visionary" 8 hours to write up in response to a single negative article about him and his management.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Angela Christine posted:

:gary:

One thing I don't understand is why mocap Gary Oldman and then make the model look exactly like Gary Oldman? Are they doing that with all the human characters, making them look like their actors?

The type of high-detail mocap they and other games are doing these days actually needs the 3d model to be reasonably close to the actor. Not exactly, but close. A thing I heard reported on Giant Bomb's podcast was "up to 20% different", whatever that means. So that's why a lot of the recent big cinematic video games have had protagonists that look a lot like their voice actors.

Though in the case of getting a real movie actor, you make it look like the actor so that people see it and can be like, I know that guy!

Tijuana Bibliophile posted:

I like Jordan Weisman. He's the antichris: a serial entrepreneur with a rediculous pedigree of successful projects
His bio is really really interesting. I think the thing that stands out even more than the number successful projects is that the unsuccessful ones were never disasters. Any time something wasn't working, he was ready to shut it down cleanly and move on rather than double down on a losing hand.

SirPhoebos
Dec 10, 2007

WELL THAT JUST HAPPENED!

AP posted:

Some people think this TOS stuff is important and a gotcha to CIG, I'm not sure the TOS is important at all to individual backers as if something even looks like it could come to court it makes much more sense of CIG to just fully refund the backer who's unhappy. But if Derek Smart is trying to get access to the books maybe the "audited cost" part helps him.

One thing I'm uncertain about is since CIG refunded Derek unilaterally, there's no implied agreement to hold harmless (or something, my legal is just a gerbil). So CIG can't stop people from suing by just stuffing the money back into their bank account, as the former customer can still say "you wasted my loving time" and at least ask for the Present Value difference of the refund.

Or am I just making things up in my head?

Google Butt
Oct 4, 2005

Xenology is an unnatural mixture of science fiction and formal logic. At its core is a flawed assumption...

that an alien race would be psychologically human.



SirPhoebos posted:

One thing I'm uncertain about is since CIG refunded Derek unilaterally, there's no implied agreement to hold harmless (or something, my legal is just a gerbil). So CIG can't stop people from suing by just stuffing the money back into their bank account, as the former customer can still say "you wasted my loving time" and at least ask for the Present Value difference of the refund.

Or am I just making things up in my head?

He said he has multiple accounts

eonwe
Aug 11, 2008



Lipstick Apathy

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:

yay octopode is back :neckbeard:

Maldoror
Oct 5, 2003

by R. Guyovich


Nap Ghost

Amun Khonsu posted:

You mean Santas not real???



every single thing that humans can imagine is real. we don't create, we don't imagine, we see visions of real things in this and other universes and realities, the number of which are infinite.

god is real, satan is real, santa claus is real, the spaghetti monster is real, star citizen is real.

big nipples big life
May 12, 2014



Starkk posted:

the real chris roberts would have spent 8 hrs fueled by cocaine writing a magnum opus of a post

you are not our lord and savior

croberts hates brevity like sandi hates pubes

AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them


Grimey Drawer

SirPhoebos posted:

One thing I'm uncertain about is since CIG refunded Derek unilaterally, there's no implied agreement to hold harmless (or something, my legal is just a gerbil). So CIG can't stop people from suing by just stuffing the money back into their bank account, as the former customer can still say "you wasted my loving time" and at least ask for the Present Value difference of the refund.

Or am I just making things up in my head?

I think the fact he was a backer at one point helps and he could make the point with some justification that CIG failing to deliver would damage the potential market for space games, which is a field he has an interest in.

But on the other hand I really have absolutely no clue, you find yourself attempting to 2nd guess what Derek "loving" Smart will do and the only thing for sure is it will either be awesome or terrible and potentially both.

Mirificus
Oct 29, 2004

Kings need not raise their voices to be heard


AP posted:

So who do we think is going to keep the faith longest Janssendalt or Karl?

I know Karl has started strong with the whole multiple online personas thing, a rather heavily "investment" and a belief that this thread is a well organised disinformation campaign dance but I wouldn't rule janssendalt out just yet.
Don't forget about Octopode.

WebDog posted:

Then Star Citizen would continue in the hands of die-hard modders who bring over the design into Freespace 2's engine and manage to make something functional in less than a year.
That would break Ben's heart. He hates Freespace 2.

Mr.Tophat
Apr 7, 2007

You clearly don't understand joke development :justpost:

Glad to see WebDog is putting his powers to good use in this thread.

When it comes to Star Citizen, it's often much harder on the customer than on the developer.

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless


College Slice

G0RF posted:

This cliched analogy assumes that Derek's accurate accusations were somehow causal to CIG's problems.

A Neurotic Jew addressed this already so I won't belabor the point of noting your error.

I'm glad we agree on something. There's hope for you yet!

We likely won't. Save for Bootcha, who has a right as an investor to require that disclosure. I wouldn't expect him to share that here, but the fact that he's already completely lost hope in the management team, based on his own research, should give you pause, as should the fact that you sincerely hope they DON'T have millions just lying around. (Cash is their lifeblood, and the less of it they have, the greater the likelihood they will fail to deliver 'The Best drat Space Sim Ever'. Just FYI.)

Hey, we agree on a second thing. Yet you don't seem to agree with yourself, since only sentences ago you said you hoped they don't have millions lying around. Unless you are rooting for it to fail, which you obviously aren't, then you should consider doing the work of reconciling your contradictory opinions. Cognitive dissonance is a burden to those afflicted with it, and you deserve better than to suffer from it unnecessarily.

When has he ever not been? Yet here again, we agree. Unfortunately, in his lifelong quixotic quest for attention, he finally seems to have struck Spindletop. He has the attention of hundreds of thousands, thanks in no small part to the inability of the Star Citizen zealots to ignore him. In so doing, they elevated the gadfly into a SuperVillain, helped turn media spotlights on him in the process, and ultimately prompted embarrassing and legally ill-considered overreactions from both Roberts AND Ortwin. Sandi, too, even-- between repeated tweeted 'discoveries' of dubious proofs of her educational credentials, laughingly disingenuous claims at Citcon that "Chris is my husband, it's no secret!", and the emotional resignation-that-wasn't speech she gave the same day.

Okay!

Not true. You're actually free to state your rebuttals without fear of being downvoted to oblivion. And you aren't the only person here who remains incredibly optimistic about the future of Star Citizen.

Unfortunately, history seems to be conforming more to the perceptions of goons than spacenerds. If it wasn't, we'd have a Best drat Space Sim Ever by now, right? Instead we have a few modules, a vanishing FPS, a ship production backlog of over 70% against sold inventory, perpetually missed release dates, a miserable flight mechanic (along with promises to improve it), a Retaliator that can't stay visible in a highly managed "tour" of the PU that looked more like a bad ragdoll flyover and an only slightly updated version of the ending of Carpenter's "Dark Star".

:gary: ---"PAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRP!"

Wow Gorf, you're freaking scary.

Also :gary: ---"PAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRP!"

A Neurotic Jew
Feb 17, 2012

by exmarx


AP posted:

I think the fact he was a backer at one point helps and he could make the point with some justification that CIG failing to deliver would damage the potential market for space games, which is a field he has an interest in.

But on the other hand I really have absolutely no clue, you find yourself attempting to 2nd guess what Derek "loving" Smart will do and the only thing for sure is it will either be awesome or terrible and potentially both.

Derek has stated that he has multiple accounts - and not all of them have been refunded. Yahtzee.

Mirificus
Oct 29, 2004

Kings need not raise their voices to be heard




Ursine Catastrophe
Nov 9, 2009



Rocket jumping?
That sounds dangerous...





Dinosaur Gum

Octopode posted:

In the US, at least, TOSes have been routinely upheld in court cases so long as they are properly presented and agreed to by users, particularly when they must be agreed to prior to entering into a service agreement. Those only available to the consumer after purchase are much less successful.

But the legal arguments weren't really my point so much as the rhetorical. If your going in position is arguing about something in the TOS should compel action on CIG's part, you've already conceded that the agreement is at least valid and applicable for the sake of your argument, and that would include the provisions allowing modification with assent.

As for why they include it--many US states defer to vendor-provided refund policies if provided at the time of purchase, but are more consumer friendly if no such policy is available.

Realistically arguing about terms of service being enforced or not is a complete crapshoot and barely worth the time. There are cases that rule terms invalid depending on how they're presented, terms of service that have completely unenforceable clauses in them, and one court case from Texas said a Blockbuster ToS was "“illusory” and unenforceable because Blockbuster had reserved the right to change the terms of service at any time".

You could, of course, with time and effort, probably find court cases from similar situations ruling exactly opposite, but a lot depends on the lawyers and judges involved, especially when it comes to "not signed by hand" terms of an online service and how well the judge in question can grok the idea of digital verification.

AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them


Grimey Drawer

Mirificus posted:

Don't forget about Octopode.

Octopode is either correctly, correcting stuff or doing minor trolling when the negativity is running rampant. Pretty sure he got most of his money out and isn't that bothered whatever happens.

Google Butt
Oct 4, 2005

Xenology is an unnatural mixture of science fiction and formal logic. At its core is a flawed assumption...

that an alien race would be psychologically human.



AP posted:

Octopode is either correctly, correcting stuff or doing minor trolling when the negativity is running rampant. Pretty sure he got most of his money out and isn't that bothered whatever happens.

Isn't octopode banned forums user seraph84?

BluestreakBTHR
Oct 2, 2015

Fucking Star Citizen True Believers are passive-aggressive douchebags. Sorry if I have the ability to use my critical thinking skills. I didn't drink the Kool-Aid, motherfuckers.

That's me trying way too hard to fit in here. Please accept me, I need validation. I'm very depressed.


Grimey Drawer

Romes128 posted:

We need to start a death pool cause holy poo poo one of these idiots is gonna off themselves when cig eventually collapses

hopefully it's more than one

Careful, Sandi will start stalking you!

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless


College Slice

Timby posted:

Ascendant Pictures (Roberts' movie production company) was producing a comedy and allegedly had an oral agreement with Kevin Costner to play the lead, and when the company ran into money problems, they claimed there was never an agreement and Costner was full of poo poo. The movie was never made. I don't know what came of the lawsuit Costner filed against Ascendant.

As for the Microsoft thing, Digital Anvil ran out of money during the production of Freelancer because Roberts couldn't manage the scope creep (he basically wanted the whole persistent universe thing promised with Star Citizen and tried developing it fifteen years ago), and he had to sell the entire company to Microsoft in order to keep the doors open. (The complete and utter failure of the Wing Commander movie didn't help Digital Anvil's finances.) Microsoft assigned a producer to the project, who quickly realized that Roberts' vision was complete fantasy and began ordering cuts to features so that the goddamn thing could finally get out the door, and Roberts walked with his buyout money rather than have to answer to THE EVIL PUBLISHER.

And that's Roberts' MO -- he hates being told what to do. You see that in the massive, embarrassing letter he wrote in response to Smart and the criticism, saying that EA had approached him multiple times about rebooting Wing Commander and he always turned them down because he'd never work for a publisher again, despite the fact that it's known the game began life as an unlicensed reboot, all the early concept art was just slightly updated Wing Commander designs right down to having the artists sketch out loving Kilrathi, the announcement video for the fundraiser was Wing Commander down to the point of using the WC3 uniforms, and ex-CIG employees have said that in the early days of the Kickstarter / campaign Roberts was still talking to EA about getting the license once the money started flying in from every side.

Skoll posted:

Costner sued them and ran Croberts out of Hollywood. He had to sell Ascendant, etc. This was all gone over in the past few threads but I don't blame you if you never caught it. I usually just skip ahead if I'm behind more than 100 posts.

After the scuffle with Costner was settled, all Ascendant Pictures assets were sold to Bigfoot Pictures. Chris and Sandi (they met when she was his intern at Ascendant) bounced around Hollywood for awhile. Then showed up in 2012 looking for money to build the BDSSE.

The rest is playing out right now.

The end result is predicted to be a catastrophic disaster of epic proportions. And we all have a front row seat to the carnage as it unfolds.

D_Smart fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Nov 1, 2015

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Google Butt
Oct 4, 2005

Xenology is an unnatural mixture of science fiction and formal logic. At its core is a flawed assumption...

that an alien race would be psychologically human.



Derek you should produce a movie about this

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