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darkarchon
Feb 2, 2016

My name is a trolling word


Beer4TheBeerGod posted:

An ANONYMOUS GAMES DEVELOPER requested I post this here so his boss wouldn't fire him. Or something. Either way it's a good read and makes fun of Star Citizen so I support it.


I wonder how many people understand the absolute insane cluster-gently caress this would be to try and implement. Star Citizen seems to have enough trouble getting a normal client-server mechanism going, and this implies that each client is attached to multiple servers/instances. So the main server will be telling your client about the ship you're in, while another server will be giving information about what's going on outside your ship, and yet more servers could be giving information about what's going on inside other ships which are nearby.

Imagine this:

The fully crewed mining freighter, Whale 1, is going through space, and the pirate constellation USS Goon, also fully crewed, decides they want to board it and raid it. The USS Goon shoots out the Whale 1's engines, then uses its main weapons to blow a hole through the side of the ship. It then comes to a stop next to the crippled ship, with it's main door roughly aligned with the hole it just made.

So, we have 3 instances, one for space and one for the interior of each ship:



Blue is the instance for the pirates, pink is the instance for the miners and white is the instance for space. According to the design, a pirate can look through the door, through space and through the hole into the other ship, where the miners are stood waiting, but cannot shoot at them or interact with them. Now, say the pirates decide to jump out of their ship, and EVA over into the other ship, we now have 3 problems:

1) The system needs to seamlessly transition the pirates from the blue instance into the white instance, and then into the pink instance. This is not a simple thing; a lot of the glitches we see in the PU are caused by the system loving up moving a player from one physics grid to another, this problem is like that, only much worse. This can be done though, it's just hard.

2) These instances are all supposed to have a limited number of players, so what if the number of players in the mining ship is already enough to reach the max player limit for the ship's instance? What does the system do as the pirates try and enter the blue instance? It can't just spin up another instance, because then you'd have half the players in one copy of the mining ship and the other half in the other copy of the mining ship. I honestly can't see a way of fixing this issue, instance based systems only work when a controlling system can safely allocate players to instances to balance them. If players can freely move from instance to instance at will, the system is hosed, end of story.

3) A pirate could float literally just outside the hole to the whale ship, and still be invulnerable to all attacks from inside the miner since they're still in the white instance, not the pink one, and players can't interact between instances. In theory, you could code the instances to talk to each other so that a bullet fired from one instance is capable of damaging a player in another instance, once again this is NOT easy to do by any means. If nothing else, it undermines the whole reason for having separate instances in the first place, since each instance would not only need to track the players within it, but also the players in nearby instances who might be shot at from inside the instance, so you might as well just shove everyone in one huge instance and have done with it.

Now, I haven't done network coding personally for a few years, so maybe someone will come in and tell me how completely wrong I am, and that I know nothing about game development, but I'd really love someone to try and explain how they'll fix this stuff.
[/quote]

There is literally no loving way they will be able to pull that off in some decent kind of way. Speaking as a (non-game) developer, Netcode per se is a giant clusterfuck. What they are trying to achieve is the supernova version of that clusterfuck. There are so many technical hurdles I don't even know where to start.

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Daztek
Jun 2, 2006




Beer4TheBeerGod posted:

Now, I haven't done network coding personally for a few years, so maybe someone will come in and tell me how completely wrong I am, and that I know nothing about game development, but I'd really love someone to try and explain how they'll fix this stuff.

Chris Roberts uses The Vision™ to increase the Instance Fidelity Pipeline

QED

Berious
Nov 13, 2005


Solarin posted:

I've been working on a theory about the original marketing plan for this game mass delusion and think I'm pretty close. SC thread please peer review my model.



I am legit fascinated by the combination of personality disorder (from pretty much everyone involved including us) and exploitation on display here.

Fuckin

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

It would be a sad error in judgement to mistake me for a corpse.


Clapping Larry

Daztek posted:

Yeah, it's from a 6 month+ old episode

They're even using the clips to make a new series!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UT3e96qQik

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXTCwsfI_7c

I haven't bothered watching the entire videos, but is it just me or does no one have any charisma and/or non-random comments in any/all their shows?

peter gabriel
Nov 8, 2011

Hello Commandos


Jobbo_Fett posted:

I haven't bothered watching the entire videos, but is it just me or does no one have any charisma and/or non-random comments in any/all their shows?

This along with that Universe Busters feels like someone has recently had the bright idea of heading people off at the pass who are making glitch / funny videos.
A marvellously transparent plan imo

Ghostlight
Sep 25, 2009

maybe for one second you can pause; try to step into another person's perspective, and understand that a watermelon is cursing me





Strategic Tea posted:

Because it's fuckin cool? I mean SC ia a joke but that's a drat sexy helmet.

I'm sorry to say this, Mrs Tea, but it looks like Strategic has contracted citizenitis. There is no cure, we can only pray for an inexpensive death.

Banano
Jan 10, 2005


Soiled Meat

ThoughtBomb posted:



Forgive Me...



now do Derek

Saint Isaias Boner
Jan 17, 2007

hi how are you





peter gabriel posted:

This along with that Universe Busters feels like someone has recently had the bright idea of heading people off at the pass who are making glitch / funny videos.
A marvellously transparent plan imo

this sort of stuff could be funny/cute if the entire game wasn't an expensive, broken clusterfuck and if they had any intention or ability to fix whatever's causing those glitches

Iridium
Apr 4, 2002




Wretched Harp

so I had my refund in October and my account was canceled then, but I hadn't played since before then, probably not for six months now.

fired it up to try it out on the free weekend and wow. I've never needed a /stuck command more, and don't think I've seen an MMO without one.




it's the little things, like not getting stuck in the geometry and having to reset to the menu several times in a row for daring to try to use a set of stairs

Cao Ni Ma
May 25, 2010


We haven't seen a single alien in SC yet and elite has been hinting their return since the game came out. A month ago people found alien "barnacle" things on a planet near a nebula and now capital ships are showing up destroyed. Their patch schedule suggest the last big patch before the expansion will probably be related to them so get ready for CIG to refocus on aliens after it becomes more apparent thats where frontier is going.

Yolomon Wayne
Jun 10, 2014

You call it "The Big Bang", but what really happened is


Grimey Drawer

Cao Ni Ma posted:

We haven't seen a single alien in SC yet and elite has been hinting their return since the game came out. A month ago people found alien "barnacle" things on a planet near a nebula and now capital ships are showing up destroyed. Their patch schedule suggest the last big patch before the expansion will probably be related to them so get ready for CIG to refocus on aliens after it becomes more apparent thats where frontier is going.

http://www.pcgamer.com/500-elite-pl...f-the-universe/

Tippis
Mar 21, 2008

It's yet another day in the wasteland.



Meh. It's a pretty standard case of trying to control the message by (seemingly) embracing the existing narrative and deflate, reinterpret, or subvert the meaning of it. I'm sure Sandi has come across it in a book somewhere as she's been trying to read up on what, exactly, someone in her position is supposed to do.

The problem is, of course, that the altered narrative needs to have some substance and to turn the spotlight onto some overlooked positive. The classic VW campaign of self-deprecation actually highlighted to benefits of having a small, cheap car, for instance. They don't seem to actually be able to put that kind of substantive focus on positives in these glitch displays — it just ends up showing glitches. It's not a case of funny emergent behaviour in a complex system; it's not a case of “oh, this is untested and experimental tech” since they're showing things that the basic engine can actually do just fine and which we've seen done without issue in a myriad of other games.

So all they end up doing is showing that, four years in, they still suffer from severe physics and interaction bugs that should never have been possible to begin with.

Tippis fucked around with this message at 14:55 on Feb 7, 2016

peter gabriel
Nov 8, 2011

Hello Commandos


Gilganixon posted:

this sort of stuff could be funny/cute if the entire game wasn't an expensive, broken clusterfuck and if they had any intention or ability to fix whatever's causing those glitches

I hope they carry on with them because unwittingly they are putting their backers in the position of having to laugh at their glitch vids while also at the same time hating other peoples glitch vids for *reasons*
CIG have an amazing ability to misread situations and come up with cumbersome 'solutions' to them, this should be fun, it has given me many many ideas for videos.

peter gabriel
Nov 8, 2011

Hello Commandos


Tippis posted:

Meh. It's a pretty standard case of trying to control the message by (seemingly) embracing the existing narrative and deflate, reinterpret, or subvert the meaning of it. I'm sure Sandi has come across it in a book somewhere as she's been trying to read up on what, exactly, someone in her position is supposed to do.

This is exactly what I think as well, and it's hilarious to me.
All it means to me is that we now have official confirmation that the game is poo poo and that CIG agree with all my videos, so suck it nerds, Chris Roberts has once again given me the official seal of approval.

Baller Time
Apr 22, 2014


The Star Citizen saga reminds me more and more of Kafka's "In the Penal Colony". Roberts as the former General, Ben as the Officer, Star Citizen as the machine, backers as the Condemned, and the goons as the visitor.

Baller Time fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Feb 7, 2016

3.0 Jesus Patch
Jan 23, 2010



Grimey Drawer

Beer4TheBeerGod posted:

An ANONYMOUS GAMES DEVELOPER requested I post this here so his boss wouldn't fire him. Or something. Either way it's a good read and makes fun of Star Citizen so I support it.


I wonder how many people understand the absolute insane cluster-gently caress this would be to try and implement. Star Citizen seems to have enough trouble getting a normal client-server mechanism going, and this implies that each client is attached to multiple servers/instances. So the main server will be telling your client about the ship you're in, while another server will be giving information about what's going on outside your ship, and yet more servers could be giving information about what's going on inside other ships which are nearby.

Imagine this:

The fully crewed mining freighter, Whale 1, is going through space, and the pirate constellation USS Goon, also fully crewed, decides they want to board it and raid it. The USS Goon shoots out the Whale 1's engines, then uses its main weapons to blow a hole through the side of the ship. It then comes to a stop next to the crippled ship, with it's main door roughly aligned with the hole it just made.

So, we have 3 instances, one for space and one for the interior of each ship:



Blue is the instance for the pirates, pink is the instance for the miners and white is the instance for space. According to the design, a pirate can look through the door, through space and through the hole into the other ship, where the miners are stood waiting, but cannot shoot at them or interact with them. Now, say the pirates decide to jump out of their ship, and EVA over into the other ship, we now have 3 problems:

1) The system needs to seamlessly transition the pirates from the blue instance into the white instance, and then into the pink instance. This is not a simple thing; a lot of the glitches we see in the PU are caused by the system loving up moving a player from one physics grid to another, this problem is like that, only much worse. This can be done though, it's just hard.

2) These instances are all supposed to have a limited number of players, so what if the number of players in the mining ship is already enough to reach the max player limit for the ship's instance? What does the system do as the pirates try and enter the blue instance? It can't just spin up another instance, because then you'd have half the players in one copy of the mining ship and the other half in the other copy of the mining ship. I honestly can't see a way of fixing this issue, instance based systems only work when a controlling system can safely allocate players to instances to balance them. If players can freely move from instance to instance at will, the system is hosed, end of story.

3) A pirate could float literally just outside the hole to the whale ship, and still be invulnerable to all attacks from inside the miner since they're still in the white instance, not the pink one, and players can't interact between instances. In theory, you could code the instances to talk to each other so that a bullet fired from one instance is capable of damaging a player in another instance, once again this is NOT easy to do by any means. If nothing else, it undermines the whole reason for having separate instances in the first place, since each instance would not only need to track the players within it, but also the players in nearby instances who might be shot at from inside the instance, so you might as well just shove everyone in one huge instance and have done with it.

Now, I haven't done network coding personally for a few years, so maybe someone will come in and tell me how completely wrong I am, and that I know nothing about game development, but I'd really love someone to try and explain how they'll fix this stuff.


Moments like this our Lord & Savour Derek Smart says it the best

D_Smart posted:

They're hosed.

The End.

Booblord Zagats
Oct 30, 2011




Pork Pro

Making it Rain posted:

Moments like this our Lord & Savour Derek Smart says it the best

So how does GTA Online handle it? Because really that's what they should be trying to rip off wholesale anyhow

Tippis
Mar 21, 2008

It's yet another day in the wasteland.



Booblord Zagats posted:

So how does GTA Online handle it? Because really that's what they should be trying to rip off wholesale anyhow

By not trying to mix instances and local physics grids.

Hopper
Dec 28, 2004

BOOING! BOOING!

Grimey Drawer

I don't know how game development worksTM ....but I imagine "boarding" would probably be easiest when it involves a tractor beam or giant grapple or some other weapon you fire to "latch onto" the other ship.
The second you are latched on an instance is spun up that is basically a box of space with 2 stationary ships and 20 dudes in it, that works like an FPS level.

Of course ship movement would be none but you are playing an FPS anyway at that point...

Brazilianpeanutwar
Aug 27, 2015

Spent my walletfull, on a jpeg, desolate, will croberts make a whale of me yet?


Hopper posted:

I don't know how game development worksTM ....but I imagine "boarding" would probably be easiest when it involves a tractor beam or giant grapple or some other weapon you fire to "latch onto" the other ship.
The second you are latched on an instance is spun up that is basically a box of space with 2 stationary ships and 20 dudes in it, that works like an FPS level.

Of course ship movement would be none but you are playing an FPS anyway at that point...

The interiors of the ships that are available right now* are pretty small right? So even if there was "Boarding" space pirate style that was all dramatic , any shootouts would be poo poo because they're so goddamn cramped, can you imagine 8 space marines boarding another ship? Unless it's a giant massive leviathan it's just gonna be 4 space marines all firing down a single corridor while the other 4 stand outside cause they can't fit in.


*Lol like there's ever gonna be any other ships, this is all your getting true believers.

Strategic Tea
Sep 1, 2012

It's not the red form anymore.
Incidental bones can file under the greens.


Ghostlight posted:

I'm sorry to say this, Mrs Tea, but it looks like Strategic has contracted citizenitis. There is no cure, we can only pray for an inexpensive death.

I have bad news. Strategic Tea was found suffocated today. He seemed to have been trying to build a helmet around his head from banknotes and papier mache.

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless


College Slice

Scruffpuff posted:

True, but there's another facet to this, and it's tied up with what you're saying. The larger publishers are also not too thrilled with Star Citizen, but not for the reasons CIG claims.

The cult narrative is "Take that, evil publishers! CIG is showing that you're not needed, and the PEOPLE are taking back gaming from your greedy hands!"

The reality is almost the opposite. First of all, a very conspicuous project that steals over 100 million dollars with nothing to show for it is a black mark on the very industry they rely on for their own profits. You can occasionally see that kind of political thinking in all kinds of industries - for example, if a restaurant makes headlines for being blatantly racist or something, you can bet that other restaurants will go out of their way to distinguish and separate themselves from the outlier, to protect their own reputations and continued operation. Secondarily, for a few years now, larger publishers have been studying crowdfunding very closely, working different angles hoping to reduce the risk of their own financial investments. A good place to start reading about this is studying the effects of Bioshock: Infinite - a beautiful, artistic, and compelling game (minus the combat) which was a total financial failure. Now, this project totally jeopardizes the entire concept of crowdfunding - if people can't trust good old Christ Roberts the wonderboy, who in their right mind would help crowdfund an "evil publisher" who already has plenty of capital for investment?

So why hasn't anyone said anything? The same reason any atrocity builds pressure for as long as it does before the dam bursts - self-interest. I don't mean that in a derogatory fashion, either. The people working there need cash. Not everyone can afford to move their families and take their chances elsewhere. Some are genuinely thinking they can get it done. Some are just excited to work in the industry in any fashion, and are riding the wave to pad their resumes. Developers working other titles don't want to badmouth Star Citizen because that carries the risk of alienating potential future customers (due to the toxic cult surrounding it), and coming off as snide and petty. Publishers don't say anything because until this collapses, anything they say will be construed as sour grapes. Media outlets are a joke.

The only people that can bring this down, barring legal action, are the people on the inside. Someone, preferably several someones, need to be willing to sacrifice their own careers to bring this down once and for all. That does not happen very often, and even when it does, and those people turn out to be right, they STILL get vilified. See: Enron for a good example. So I don't see a very good end to any of this, unless someone is willing to sacrifice themselves to that extent.

Here's why...

The industry is mostly like a camp of inbred morons who live to cover their own collective asses. They're selfish, egotistical, corrupt and opportunistic.

When you have people with those qualities, given how everyone knows everyone, nobody is going to say anything for fear of running afoul of their industry friends.

That's the difference between resident rear end in a top hat Kevin Dent and guys like George Broussard who, despite the fact that he gets attacked all the time for DNF (which was their own money btw), he has been sounding the alarm for awhile now.

It's also the same reason why there are so many leaks - by those who know it's just not right - coming out of RSI/CIG; but nobody wants to put their face or name to them.

People who know me, know that with all my faults, I am neither corrupt, nor do I strive to fit in anyone's lovely club. I can't be intimidated, fired etc. I stand alone. And it's just the way I like it.

aleksendr
May 14, 2014


Hopper posted:

I don't know how game development worksTM ....but I imagine "boarding" would probably be easiest when it involves a tractor beam or giant grapple or some other weapon you fire to "latch onto" the other ship.
The second you are latched on an instance is spun up that is basically a box of space with 2 stationary ships and 20 dudes in it, that works like an FPS level.

Of course ship movement would be none but you are playing an FPS anyway at that point...

Boarding, by itself, can be completed in many different ways, some dumb(simple click on a disabled craft), some good (3dfps with objectives) but in the case of SC, its not the main problem.

The problem is that you have to balance boarding against your whole loving economy and MMO paradigm.

a) boarding is fun and profitable - Why grind for big ship then ? Just wait with your friend with a space short bus and steal the biggest ship you can find. Rince-repeat until everyone in the gang is pimped.

b) Boarding is hard or not economically viable - You just spend a few M$ on content nobody use.

They cant design boarding because they need to design the economy and the whole persistence (reputation, consequence on death, insurance, ect) thing first, and they have to push SQ42 out before they even begin doing that.

Iglocska
Nov 23, 2015



There is literally no loving way they will be able to pull that off in some decent kind of way. Speaking as a (non-game) developer, Netcode per se is a giant clusterfuck. What they are trying to achieve is the supernova version of that clusterfuck. There are so many technical hurdles I don't even know where to start.
[/quote]

That is loving stupid. #2 is solveable the rest sounds like a clusterfuck.

Instance limits most likely won't be as tightly provisioned as suggested, but instead you'll have an instance with a limit of say 100 players (hahaha, ok, realistically seeing how things are 16), spread across the miner ship / the pirate ship / the space in-between. If another ship tried to enter the area where the fight is going on all the players on-board would end up in a different instance (which is really a cluster of instances - space and the local instances of the ships contained within).

peter gabriel
Nov 8, 2011

Hello Commandos


This all explains so so much of what happens when you play the game as well, the way you cannot shoot people next to you, the way you bounce off open ship doors until you hit <<USE>> - all of it.

Wrecked Angle
May 12, 2012

"JURASSIC PARK!"


Yeah, the instancing/multicrew thing just doesn't work and tbh is a prime example of why this thing is a complete scam.

If this were ever going to be real and existed in any form other than Crobbers 'dream' they don't even need to show a functioning version of these systems. They just need to show a design document showing how this stuff is going to work. They don't, because they don't know how it will work, because it doesn't work (most open game development ever right there).

And as touched on above, even if they performed some sort of miracle and ended up with large space instances that could support say 100 people (lol, yeah right). They then need to solve the gameplay issues of what happens when you fill 75 of those 100 slots with murderous goons. Yeah, thanks for building a nice simple way of relieving autists of their chariots right into the game.

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless


College Slice

ThoughtBomb posted:



Forgive Me...

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless


College Slice

c2usaf2004 posted:

BBB does!

Complaint ID#: 465960
Business Name: Cloud Imperium Games, LLC

Thank you for contacting BBB. Your complaint was received by BBB on February 1, 2016 and has been assigned case# 465960in our files. Please make a note of this number for future reference.

Your complaint has been applied to the following business:
Cloud Imperium Games, LLC
1316 3rd Street Promenade Ste 111
Santa Monica, CA 90401-1324

The case has been reviewed and has now been forwarded to the business for their response. This business has until February 25, 2016 to respond to your complaint. You may contact our office after February 25, 2016 to check the status of your complaint.

We encourage you to use our ONLINE COMPLAINT system to keep up with the progress of this complaint. To view the details of your case please go to the following website address: http://sanjose.app.bbb.org/complain...65960/c/a9vy97.

Sincerely,

Maria Nevarez
Complaint Specialist
BBB Complaint Department

If you haven't already, file one with the FTC and you will receive a similar response. Use my resources here: http://www.dereksmart.org/forums/to...ions/#post-2192

e. I see you already did

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless


College Slice

Moogle posted:

If they're closing things for not understanding development, they also need to close one million accounts, fourteen companies, four studios and Chris Roberts' mouth.

Mirificus
Oct 29, 2004

Kings need not raise their voices to be heard



https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitize...e_mode_engaged/

Daztek
Jun 2, 2006




http://i.imgur.com/uOQuYKj.gifv

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless


College Slice


Yeah, it's bullshit. Let's move on.

ewe2
Jul 1, 2009

TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP

put clinton in prison imo


Lipstick Apathy

Wrecked Angle posted:

And as touched on above, even if they performed some sort of miracle and ended up with large space instances that could support say 100 people (lol, yeah right). They then need to solve the gameplay issues of what happens when you fill 75 of those 100 slots with murderous goons. Yeah, thanks for building a nice simple way of relieving autists of their chariots right into the game.

Say they try to do that and fix the boarding issue by treating it as an instance of its own, that means you could be minding your own business and being dragged into an instance you hadn't planned on, that alone is mind-bogglingly bad. And then you deal with goons.

A Neurotic Jew
Feb 17, 2012

by exmarx


btw if anyone is waiting for a response from customer service right now, they mentioned on the latest RtV that they've caught up with the cue. So you will probably want to send another email.

Happy Sisyphus
Nov 13, 2013

You take the blue paarp - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red paarp - you stay in pre-alpha, and I show you how deep the sperg wallet goes.




best bale
Jul 4, 2007



Lipstick Apathy


Mirificus
Oct 29, 2004

Kings need not raise their voices to be heard



https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitize.../would_you_pay/

Dusty Lens
Jul 1, 2015

All Glory unto the Stimpire. Give up your arms and legs and embrace the beautiful agony of electricity that doubles in pain every second.



A Neurotic Jew posted:

btw if anyone is waiting for a response from customer service right now, they mentioned on the latest RtV that they've caught up with the cue. So you will probably want to send another email.

Is that what they're calling deleting the backlog now?

Happy Sisyphus
Nov 13, 2013

You take the blue paarp - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red paarp - you stay in pre-alpha, and I show you how deep the sperg wallet goes.



i'm still not convinced that you need a-list actors to shoot mocap for a video game

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Kavak
Aug 23, 2009




Now edit it so as the helmet's closing it yells "LET ME loving FINISH!" and it opens back up super quick.

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