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Paladinus
Jan 11, 2014

heyHEYYYY!!!


And furthermore still, Star Citizen will be the best video game.

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TTerrible
Jul 15, 2005


The thing that usually stops an engine change for a project is having to throw away completed work and start again.

With SC none if it is in-engine yet anyway, it's all renders in 3DS Max. Isn't this the best time to just download UE4? :v:

MeLKoR
Dec 23, 2004

by FactsAreUseless


AP posted:

Don't disagree with anything you said but just to correct this 2 million part, the kickstarter had a $500k goal, they raised over 2 million with more on their own RSI site. The plan was to develop a game with a budget of between 14-20 million (there's an interview with Chris Roberts saying this), later the budget inflated to 23 million to cover physical items, paypal/kickstarter fees etc (there's a chairman letter on RSI about that). Originally the kickstarter was to prove demand was there to investors who would fund the rest.

From memory of an interview, when they had a feel for the interest Sandi apparently persuaded Chris Roberts to try to obtain full funding for the rest from backers. In the early days they were confused about why people were pledging more than once and asked them why, that's when they were told people wanted to collect the ships. Since then we've gone from something like 5 ships to well over 100.

Fixed my post but it's still absurd, how can this game be 5X better than The Best drat Space Sim Ever? Even someone that is deep into SC can't justify this growth of scope with "it was worth it". It can't be, even if it came out exactly as promised. It's either that or Chris Roberts lied and The Best drat Space Sim Ever could never have been made with just $20 million and that is an even bigger :can:.

Dark Off
Aug 14, 2015






Paladinus posted:

And furthermore still, Star Citizen will be the best video game.

In alternative universe. where roberts didnt lead the project.

Paladinus
Jan 11, 2014

heyHEYYYY!!!


What engine does a buggy run on?

:gary: A buggy engine.

peter gabriel
Nov 8, 2011

Hello Commandos


Paladinus posted:

What engine does a buggy run on?

:gary: Cryengine.

my girlfriend is Legos
Apr 24, 2013


T.G. Xarbala posted:

This is a person that literally wants to see someone else lose thousands of dollars out of sheer malice.

I mean, same, but with Chris Roberts

AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them


Grimey Drawer

Mukip posted:

CIGs behaviour is more damning really if you take it for granted that they have enough money already to make the game and put it out. Because then it means they are effectively conning people into giving them money for no reason, as opposed to a scenario where they need the money to keep the lights on due to prolonged development. They can't reasonably be changing the development goals at this point (assuming baseline sanity), so either they have enough money or they don't. I suppose a person who really believes in the honest motives of CIG must therefore conclude that they don't have enough money to make this game as it stands.

Yeah, fool that I was I expected them to stop selling ships at 23 million at full funding. Once they didn't, after the November 2013 sale ended I started bailing out, they obviously didn't need my money and I could see a use or two for it.

peter gabriel
Nov 8, 2011

Hello Commandos


I'm starting to suspect that Chris may be greedy and over ambitious and they are just fleecing people.
I am literally shaking right now.

Tippis
Mar 21, 2008

It's yet another day in the wasteland.



Truga posted:

So, SC using cryengine didn't sound like a bad idea in 2011/12, when UE4 didn't yet exist and unity was still a joke engine for simplistic indie games. IIRC, it was the only "AAA grade" engine able to be licensed back then that didn't have a directx featureset several years out of date.

Unfortunately for crobbits, you need more than just a good rendering engine to make a good game. Add the facts that since Unity 5 released, cryengine is the new comedy option engine and UE4 being better than cryengine at just about everything, plus 20/20 hindsight, and it makes it look even worse.

Even in 2011/12, not picking very-soon-to-be-released UE4 as the future-proofing option was daft. Overlooking Unity at the time might have made some sense, as you point out, but even within the original (laughable) promised timespan for development, betting on Epic's new engine being available in time would have been far lower risk than the already ageing, questionably capable CryEngine.

Considering how quickly some teams have been able to transition from UE3 to UE4, there's a fair argument to be made that little to no time would have been lost at that early stage anyway, even if they would have had to wait.

peter gabriel
Nov 8, 2011

Hello Commandos


Did uber nerd Carmack have an engine out back then?
Was ID 4 out or something? Could anyone understand it? What the gently caress? Another question?

SirTagz
Feb 25, 2014



Why the gently caress are you arguing about the use of Cryengine. It is completely irrelevant. It might have been the only reasonable choice at the time, might have been the second best. It does not matter..

Do you really thing that CR would have managed a project backed by UE4 any better? You are only hung up on Cryengine because this name dropping is the only thing you feel confident about from the sidelines.

Paladinus
Jan 11, 2014

heyHEYYYY!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6WDwsdH_A0

peter gabriel
Nov 8, 2011

Hello Commandos


Here is a good example of what I dislike about CIG.
On their store they sell crap like T Shirts and butt plugs.
The T Shirts are advertised for $6 which seems great:



However when you choose any other size than extra small, they are all loving $30



This pisses me off because it's just them all over, advertise for $6 when really it's $30, there's no real reason for that one size of shirt to be so cheaper than the rest apart from marketing bullshit.

Also, please, Octopode, Karl, show me a Star Citizen player that can wear an extra small t shirt.

Nickiepoo
Jun 23, 2013


Taking money is 'fine'. This wouldn't be an issue if they stopped adding stretch goals designed just to squeeze niche parts of the market (which they then have to develop).

I mean, if the Battletech kickstarter had made double their 2.5 million nobody would have complained, but they also didn't promise a mech-janitor and painting module just to try and get there.

peter gabriel
Nov 8, 2011

Hello Commandos


SirTagz posted:

Why the gently caress are you arguing about the use of Cryengine. It is completely irrelevant. It might have been the only reasonable choice at the time, might have been the second best. It does not matter..

Do you really thing that CR would have managed a project backed by UE4 any better? You are only hung up on Cryengine because this name dropping is the only thing you feel confident about from the sidelines.

Listen, let me tell you about game engines.
You can't just use a game engine, you have to use it.

AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them


Grimey Drawer

MeLKoR posted:

Fixed my post but it's still absurd, how can this game be 5X better than The Best drat Space Sim Ever? Even someone that is deep into SC can't justify this growth of scope with "it was worth it". It can't be, even if it came out exactly as promised. It's either that or Chris Roberts lied and The Best drat Space Sim Ever could never have been made with just $20 million and that is an even bigger :can:.

I can't help you with that, I thought things were pretty hosed up when I thought they were raising all this money to make a game, that was before I knew about all these other rumours. It's like one of those dodgy charities were 95% of what you give them goes into fundraising costs.

I think it's going to be funny if the guy who was shouting "The Cryengine sucks" at a Citizen event in 2013 turns out to have been right, considering Citizens were trying to track him down after that for saying something so terrible.

A Neurotic Jew
Feb 17, 2012

by exmarx


SirTagz posted:

Why the gently caress are you arguing about the use of Cryengine. It is completely irrelevant. It might have been the only reasonable choice at the time, might have been the second best. It does not matter..

Do you really thing that CR would have managed a project backed by UE4 any better? You are only hung up on Cryengine because this name dropping is the only thing you feel confident about from the sidelines.

:confused: It's actually of interest in terms of the chronic scope creep and how it eventually reached a point beyond what Cryengine could conceivably do, hth.

OWLS!
Sep 17, 2009

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN


AP posted:

I think it's going to be funny if the guy who was shouting "The Cryengine sucks" at a Citizen event in 2013 turns out to have been right, considering Citizens were trying to track him down after that for saying something so terrible.

CRYENGINE SUCKS.

Xaerael
Aug 25, 2010

Marching Powder is objectively the worst poster known. He also needs to learn how a keyboard works.



peter gabriel posted:


Also, please, Octopode, Karl, show me a Star Citizen player that can wear an extra small t shirt.

I'll take this one. Ben Lesnick. HA! (As a hat)

Dark Off
Aug 14, 2015






Just imagine if star citizen had chosen to use rage's engine. Its like fit for space game
Megatextures for space should be easy to make.
Large open world environment support.
buggie physics.
etc.

AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them


Grimey Drawer

peter gabriel posted:

Also, please, Octopode, Karl, show me a Star Citizen player that can wear an extra small t shirt.

You need Seraph for that.

vyst
Aug 25, 2009





Is this game out yet?

Truga
May 4, 2014


Lipstick Apathy

peter gabriel posted:

Did uber nerd Carmack have an engine out back then?
Was ID 4 out or something? Could anyone understand it? What the gently caress? Another question?

Carmack's Tech 5 is a really good engine, but 1) who the gently caress knows what kind of licensing deal you could even get since bethesda took over id, and more importantly, 2) Carmack makes game engines that play well. Today, that often means they won't look as good as something else, and can you imagine crobbits settling for something that doesn't look as good as it possibly can, and then some?

It's the first difference someone who played a lot of id games notices when trying a cryengine game for the first time. There's absolutely no way to get rid of input lag on cryengine. In a quake game, you obviously ideally want as much FPS as possible for a smooth experience, but the game stays completely playable even when your FPS are in the teens, as controls stay just as responsive.

In cryengine, going below 40-50 FPS can often make games unplayable and even at a stable 60 fps, you can feel the input lag. It's just there, constantly. In a quake game, moving the mouse 2 inches moves the crosshair by the exact same amount of degrees every single time. In cryengine, it's completely loving random, and the lower your frame rate, the worse it gets. It's absolutely horrendous.

AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them


Grimey Drawer

vyst posted:

Is this game out yet?

Yes, it's patch day too.

MeLKoR
Dec 23, 2004

by FactsAreUseless


AP posted:

You need Seraph for that.

:drat:

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

My "Not Vincent Price" T-shirt has people asking a lot of questions already answered by my shirt.




Smellrose

Berious posted:

My dad would've loving killed me if I'd spent 10K on jpegs

If I'd spent 10K on JPEGs, I'd want my dad to kill me.

SirTagz
Feb 25, 2014



A Neurotic Jew posted:

:confused: It's actually of interest in terms of the chronic scope creep and how it eventually reached a point beyond what Cryengine could conceivably do, hth.

Given competent management and seemingly unlimited funds Cryengine can do anything UE4 or any other engine can do. The fact that you start with one renderer should not limit your options. You just rewrite anything.

Or alternatively. You know. Get bugged down in JPEG concept art and just burn through the funds

Tippis
Mar 21, 2008

It's yet another day in the wasteland.



peter gabriel posted:

Did uber nerd Carmack have an engine out back then?
Was ID 4 out or something? Could anyone understand it? What the gently caress? Another question?

The idTech 5 (Rage) engine came out in 2011, and primary development of idTech 6 (Doom) was announced later in the year.

SirTagz posted:

Do you really thing that CR would have managed a project backed by UE4 any better? You are only hung up on Cryengine because this name dropping is the only thing you feel confident about from the sidelines.

Of course not. It's more a case of “yet another stupid thing CRobber did” given the options he had at hand, and which is now causing problems four years down the road.

Xaerael
Aug 25, 2010

Marching Powder is objectively the worst poster known. He also needs to learn how a keyboard works.



What's the odds they'll cave in and switch engines eventually?

SelenicMartian
Sep 14, 2013

Sometimes it's not the bomb that's retarded.



Xaerael posted:

What's the odds they'll cave in and switch engines eventually?
I'm sure their getaway vehicle of choice already has the best engine they could install.

kikkelivelho
Aug 27, 2015



Xaerael posted:

What's the odds they'll cave in and switch engines eventually?

They've already committed to rewriting most of the engine. Moving to a new one doesn't really make sense once your that deep.

Berious
Nov 13, 2005


Xaerael posted:

What's the odds they'll cave in and switch engines eventually?

That would own. Then Shitizens would insist without a shred of irony that the game has been in development for < 1 year because they had to start from scratch. Then they'd buy a jpeg and post something rude about Derek Smart.

Maybe Plan B is to poo poo something out with RPG Maker and ride off into the sunset.

LLJKSiLk
Jul 7, 2005

by Athanatos


peter gabriel posted:

Here is a good example of what I dislike about CIG.
On their store they sell crap like T Shirts and butt plugs.
The T Shirts are advertised for $6 which seems great:



However when you choose any other size than extra small, they are all loving $30



This pisses me off because it's just them all over, advertise for $6 when really it's $30, there's no real reason for that one size of shirt to be so cheaper than the rest apart from marketing bullshit.

Also, please, Octopode, Karl, show me a Star Citizen player that can wear an extra small t shirt.

To play Devil's advocate, supply/demand dictates that the most demand isn't in the small shirts for the space whales.

Truga
May 4, 2014


Lipstick Apathy

Xaerael posted:

What's the odds they'll cave in and switch engines eventually?

They won't switch engines unless they're dumb.

Cryengine renderer is still the best there is, or at least close to that, and it's not like they can use anything besides the renderer for the space part of the game anyway. This would also be true of UE4 or whatever other engine, so...

As for FPS, it was going to be poo poo tier either way, and would be with any engine, but we knew that in 2012. It's a minigame inside a space game.

kikkelivelho
Aug 27, 2015



Does Elite use a custom engine?

Truga
May 4, 2014


Lipstick Apathy

Elite uses the in-house engine Frontier has been using and upgrading since the early 00s. IIRC they call it Cobra?

Dusty Lens
Jul 1, 2015

All Glory unto the Stimpire. Give up your arms and legs and embrace the beautiful agony of electricity that doubles in pain every second.



It'll be pretty funny when scope creep is credited as the failure mechanism of a game that never managed to successfully tackle its basic gameplay promises.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DTFpKlH1LE

On the subject of games that are importing their gameplay design into a game engine developed for something else.

MeLKoR
Dec 23, 2004

by FactsAreUseless


Truga posted:

Elite uses the in-house engine Frontier has been using and upgrading since the early 00s. IIRC they call it Cobra?

Maybe Chris could get a limited licence so they could finish SC?

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Cao Ni Ma
May 25, 2010





It took FFXIV like a year and a half to switch from one engine to another and it was going from a horrible proprietary engine that ran like poo poo and wasn't designed to be used at all on an MMO to one of the most efficient MMO engines in the market that can run on a toaster. The management team knew that continuing with the engine was just going to bring too many headaches farther in development and decided to rework the entire thing than sticking with what they had already. When your plan is to stick with a game as a platform for years it is undoubtedly the right call.

CIG is too deep into sunk cost to realize that all that code debt is going to keep blowing up in their faces whenever they try to implement a new system. But I get the feeling that they know that switching to another solution wont do them any good this late in the game.

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