Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
Paramemetic
Sep 29, 2003







Fallen Rib

Is there a handy link for a compendium of exploding buggy videos?

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Erenthal
Jan 1, 2008

A relaxing walk in the woods

Grimey Drawer

LCL-Dead posted:

Kraiklyn, after "talking to Patrick about my case" since I spent a few emails arguing with Patrick about his math.
With that in mind, was Halo designated multi-platform or just Mac? The first article I ever saw was written post RTS days and talked about fighting a guerilla style war against the covenant on the ring. It was in a PC Gamer (Or whatever pc gaming magazine was the go-to mag back in 1999/2000) I'd picked up from a friends house.

I remember it being Mac exclusive at one point, which led to a lot of shameful crowing on my part to my friends in school about how the best game ever was coming to Mac, and that never more would they laugh at me while playing the latest games on their PCs.

Loiosh
Jul 25, 2010


Erenthal posted:

Yeah, I remember. As a Mac user back then, you were desperate for anything at all to play, and here Bungie promised us the world.

Maybe it was for the best though? Would Halo have been stuck in the SC limbo if MS hadn't bought it and slashed and burned?

No, according to Jason and Marty, Bungie was okay with funding, though they were a bit unstable at the time. It would require Myth II to be a success even after the recall (it was). The reason they joined to MS was that they wanted to work on the Xbox with a dedicated gaming company like Microsoft.

I laugh at this now days, seeing what MS became (slashing both their internal game devs ACES and Ensemble Studios, and failing to support gaming on Windows beyond small DX12 team), but they didn't make those choices [edit: to cut features to make launch]. Bungie did as they wanted to hit launch on the Xbox.

LuiCypher
Apr 24, 2010


Erenthal posted:

I remember it being Mac exclusive at one point, which led to a lot of shameful crowing on my part to my friends in school about how the best game ever was coming to Mac, and that never more would they laugh at me while playing the latest games on their PCs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eZ2yvWl9nQ

That's the unveiling of Halo at Macworld. At the time, Bungie was pretty much the premier developer for Mac games. I had the Marathon collection waaaaaay back in the day and the sheer number of mods, levels, and editors that were released for it was staggering. They were pretty difficult games at the time though, at least for a kid.

Loiosh
Jul 25, 2010


CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:

how much are you in for?
Answered here: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3748466&pagenumber=340&perpage=40#post452648847
Also, since I get this a lot. The follow up to (you should donate that!) is here: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3748466&pagenumber=342&perpage=40#post452652637
And my feelings on support for SC here: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3748466&pagenumber=358&perpage=40#post452725205

Aka, don't fund it if you have any question. I believe people should totally make the best financial decisions for themselves, and I fully support not funding CIG/SC because of their issues with development (including those multiple mocap setup purchases and sales).

BMan
Oct 31, 2015

KNIIIIIIFE
EEEEEYYYYE
ATTAAAACK




CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:

how much are you in for?

$1500 IIRC. He's apparently rich though so that makes it all ok.

Hopper
Dec 28, 2004

BOOING! BOOING!

Grimey Drawer

To his credit, he actually can provide a logical train of arguments why he supports SC instead of spewing bile, fiddling kiddys or pretending to be his dad/sister/a German audtior at the same time.

The Kins
Oct 2, 2004


Sector Effector


LuiCypher posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eZ2yvWl9nQ

That's the unveiling of Halo at Macworld. At the time, Bungie was pretty much the premier developer for Mac games. I had the Marathon collection waaaaaay back in the day and the sheer number of mods, levels, and editors that were released for it was staggering. They were pretty difficult games at the time though, at least for a kid.
There's a video a while back of some of the Bungie guys going through old WIP builds of Halo 1 and marvelling at just how scripted everything was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RN9vO_gRzoI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Tqrfy4SR7I

LCL-Dead
Apr 22, 2014



Grimey Drawer

The Macworld video is what got me going. That was the first live action sequence I was able to view and it looked promising as gently caress.

AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them


Grimey Drawer


Loiosh
Jul 25, 2010


LCL-Dead posted:

The Macworld video is what got me going. That was the first live action sequence I was able to view and it looked promising as gently caress.

I was so jealous of that (as a PC gamer). It looked incredible. I almost considered buying a Mac.

Of course, what, a decade and a half later, here I am with an iPhone on a new MacBook Pro, happily using products from the company that was the mortal enemy of my childhood PC.

Tijuana Bibliophile
Dec 30, 2008



Scratchmo

Loiosh posted:

I was so jealous of that (as a PC gamer). It looked incredible. I almost considered buying a Mac.

Of course, what, a decade and a half later, here I am with an iPhone on a new MacBook Pro, happily using products from the company that was the mortal enemy of my childhood PC.

Citizen, consoles are the mortal enemies of PC gaming.

Alan Smithee
Jan 3, 2005

Behold the power of the DIC
(Dairy Industrial Complex)


LCL-Dead posted:

The Macworld video is what got me going. That was the first live action sequence I was able to view and it looked promising as gently caress.

As a mac gamer (lol) at the time I was so pumped. Microsoft seriously hosed them in the butt on that one

too bad it can't save the bone now

Tijuana Bibliophile
Dec 30, 2008



Scratchmo

BMan posted:

$1500 IIRC. He's apparently rich though so that makes it all ok.

Not getting this. If I had $1500 to burn, I would absolutely feel free to burn it. Backing Star Citizen is not a question of morality, it's a question of stupidity.

Also comedy.

Matlock Birthmark
Sep 24, 2005

I wanted this to happen!!


Soiled Meat


Ha ha, I like this one. I think the exit animation playing and the shift to park make it absurd.

Berious
Nov 13, 2005


Tijuana Bibliophile posted:

Not getting this. If I had $1500 to burn, I would absolutely feel free to burn it. Backing Star Citizen is not a question of morality, it's a question of stupidity.

Also comedy.

Yeah but if you're going to blow that sort of money foolishly why not buttchug an expensive single malt or something?

Loiosh
Jul 25, 2010


Berious posted:

Yeah but if you're going to blow that sort of money foolishly why not buttchug an expensive single malt or something?

I don't drink alcohol

Beer4TheBeerGod
Aug 23, 2004


Exciting Lemon

Loiosh posted:

I don't drink alcohol

I'm sorry to hear that.

Loiosh
Jul 25, 2010


Beer4TheBeerGod posted:

I'm sorry to hear that.

Everyone seems to be. Both of my roommates are regular (medical) weed users as well and shake their heads at me. I was that one kid who abstinence-only education actually worked on. Until my 20s, basically.

Thanks, Texas.

Matlock Birthmark
Sep 24, 2005

I wanted this to happen!!


Soiled Meat

Loiosh posted:

I don't drink alcohol

why the spoilers :gary: PAAARRRRPPPP

Aramoro
Jun 1, 2012






Loiosh posted:

I don't drink alcohol

You wouldn't be drinking it.

A Neurotic Jew
Feb 17, 2012

by exmarx


Loiosh posted:

I don't drink alcohol

Wait until it hits you that you threw $1500 into a shredder.

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

D_Smart posted:

And since the FTC is the Fed agency in charge of that, not to mention that the attorney generals in various States are getting involved in crowd-funding scams, it's going to be a whole lot messier than the 38 Studios implosion. And even in that case, someone went to jail for fraud. Then there's the FBI who will somehow get involved. Especially given that several parties have now been linked to the likes of Gizmondo.

Who do you think went to jail over 38 Studios' loan? There were depositions, but the only person jailed was Buddy Cianci over 'Plunder Dome', which was only peripherally connected. It was a terrible deal, but stopped short of actual fraud. Rhode Island brought a suit based on fraud and walked away with a settlement for $4.4 million.

https://web.archive.org/web/20121119012618/http://www.riedc.com/files/Complaint-with-exhibit-final.pdf

tl;dr - they tried to sue everyone and got virtually nowhere.

fuzzknot
Mar 22, 2009

Yip yip yip yip yip


Loiosh posted:

Everyone seems to be. Both of my roommates are regular (medical) weed users as well and shake their heads at me. I was that one kid who abstinence-only education actually worked on. Until my 20s, basically.

Thanks, Texas.

Pfft. I'm in Texas and am here to tell you that abstinence never worked on me.

G0RF
Mar 19, 2015

Some galactic defender you are, Space Cadet.


Loiosh posted:

Everyone seems to be. Both of my roommates are regular (medical) weed users as well and shake their heads at me. I was that one kid who abstinence-only education actually worked on. Until my 20s, basically.

Thanks, Texas.
There's no shame in that, mate. A man's got to have a code.

Loiosh
Jul 25, 2010


A Neurotic Jew posted:

Wait until it hits you that you threw $1500 into a shredder.

It's not that big a deal. Would be nothing like the $6,000 I spent on an ES 250, which turns out had a busted CV axle ($2,500 later), ... I wrecked it a week later.

That was upsetting. When I bought my first LS, I got a lot more careful about driving. No more following behind people on the highway. By the time I upgraded, they had added automate cruise control (2003 UL LS430). That option made my life better.

BMan
Oct 31, 2015

KNIIIIIIFE
EEEEEYYYYE
ATTAAAACK




I don't drink alcohol either. Thanks, Texas of the North.

eonwe
Aug 11, 2008



Lipstick Apathy

I don't know what video is in my av and I don't care

trucutru
Jul 9, 2003

Invoking fairy dust is not a crime.


Loiosh posted:


I'm willing to support the effort because I've seen this same thing happen year after year in game development. (Here's where I mention that Blizzard redesigned Diablo I a year before delivery. It was originally turn-based).

The difference is that in the case of Halo, Diablo, WoW, GTA, etc they *had* something, saw it wasn't fun (or what they wanted) and said "gently caress it, let's re-do, it's our money". In the case of SC they have nothing, it is not fun, and they said "gently caress it, let's re-do, it's their money".

G0RF
Mar 19, 2015

Some galactic defender you are, Space Cadet.


Loiosh posted:

It's not that big a deal. Would be nothing like the $6,000 I spent on an ES 250, which turns out had a busted CV axle ($2,500 later),
It is nothing like it also in that the latter was a real thing.

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless


College Slice

Loiosh posted:

There are other games to do that in. It's a bit silly to complain about that for an alpha which does not even include a character selection/creation thing because.. they just finished delivering the necessary features to complete the major portions of the engine rework.

I kinda remember during WoW's development a similar moment happening. WoW started in a slightly expanded version of the War III engine and during the friends and family Alpha, the team voted on a choice: continue development like this, or push to do a redesign of the entire engine, redo the animation and fight systems and basically delay the release 3 further years. I kinda wonder if we had open development like this, where you can see the developers making these choices, if people would be reacting in the same way given that multiple games and game engines have gone through this exact process in the past.

Another example of this is Halo. It was originally designed on the Myth II engine as an RTS. 2 years before release, Bungie decided it wasn't enough and they made a decision to rebuild their engine for FPS, scrap all the assets and animations and redesign the entire game structure to accommodate that.

GTA 3 started on an internal engine before they scrapped work and adopted RenderWare because they wanted a better solution for 3d work as their game scope increased.

Here's SC, a game that was originally pitched as an upgrade to Freelancer with an MMO + some FPS stuff if they hit a stretch goal. After they pass 30 million, they make a decision to rescope it and then spend 3 years redesigning CryEngine 3 to enable the expanded vision. 64bit address space, dynamic level/asset loading, a complete change to the scripting system, removal and replacement of the movement system, new PBR-based deferred renderer, replaced Newtonian movement system, and others. I know people mock the developers for doing this (THEN WHY RELEASE SHIPS IN THE HANGAR) and completely ignore the fact it was announced this was early work to show off the level of detail they were striving for in the final game, but that development would change as engine capabilities were added in. Here we are, 3/4 years later (depending on if you consider that real development began after the KS in 2012 or for the teaser KS video that started in 2011), and on stage they've demonstrated this engine upgrade that they've focused most of their development effort on over the last year. The engine they need to deliver the rescoped game. Give Derek all the credit he deserves, he was correct that the game pitched in the KS is not what they're making.

It reminds me of my thoughts when I saw the first public Halo reveal at MacWorld, where it had gone from the RTS engine to an FPS and people were thinking Bungie would never deliver third person shooter game with advanced physics and vehicles, and air vehicles... A year after that presentation people hear that Bungie has been bought out by MS. Bungie just learned that Myth II would require a recall before release. The game was deleting the HDDs of customers when uninstalled. 2 years later, they release a First Person Shooter, full of bugs, but much beloved.

I'm still uncertain about the future of SC. If they cannot smooth out their content pipeline with the ship portions of the engine mostly complete. If they cannot make the FPS replacement work and fix the movement issues. If they cannot release SQ42 and source additional funding next year, they're sunk, as far as I'm concerned. But I feel that saying they've already failed because they rescoped the game 3 years ago, that they've redesigned the ships as the game engine has had features completed, is premature.

I'm willing to support the effort because I've seen this same thing happen year after year in game development. (Here's where I mention that Blizzard redesigned Diablo I a year before delivery. It was originally turn-based).

All valid points. Some notes:

1) I don't just want to take credit just for saying they're building a different ("vision 1.0" v "vision 2.0"). I want to take credit for saying :

- they don't have the tech to build "vision 2.0"
- they need more money ($150m+)
- they need more time ( 2-3 more yrs)
- that the project was woefully mismanaged
- that backer money was being wasted
- that Chris & Sandi Roberts are habitual liars who have, at every opportunity, misled backers

...and pretty much every drat thing that has appeared in my blog and which has been substantiated in some form or another

None of this was rocket science. People just weren't taking a look at the big picture. And even though some of these claims (e.g. the game will never get made, it has been blown out of scope etc) were already being made, they were drowned out by the numerous White Knights who did their best to push it all down.

Until I came along. With a gas can, a match, and flame retardant knickers.

quote:

I'm still uncertain about the future of SC. If they cannot smooth out their content pipeline with the ship portions of the engine mostly complete. If they cannot make the FPS replacement work and fix the movement issues. If they cannot release SQ42 and source additional funding next year, they're sunk, as far as I'm concerned. But I feel that saying they've already failed because they rescoped the game 3 years ago, that they've redesigned the ships as the game engine has had features completed, is premature.

awwww, that's cute. Optimism.

Here's the thing, NONE of the above it going to happen. And even IF by the off-chance SQ42 does get released before it all collapses, it will be a buggy mess; not unlike every single piece of this project before it.

I don't believe that they will get a bailout. Unless it's a fire sale. And if any of that happens, the project is going to get chopped up. And there is nothing that any backer can do about that. As I've said before, you would end up having blown $100m and getting a sub-par $10m "game".

This "game" is never - ever - seeing the light of day with Chris, Sandi and Ortwin at the helm. Ever.

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless


College Slice

Loiosh posted:

Answered here: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3748466&pagenumber=340&perpage=40#post452648847
Also, since I get this a lot. The follow up to (you should donate that!) is here: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3748466&pagenumber=342&perpage=40#post452652637
And my feelings on support for SC here: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3748466&pagenumber=358&perpage=40#post452725205

Aka, don't fund it if you have any question. I believe people should totally make the best financial decisions for themselves, and I fully support not funding CIG/SC because of their issues with development (including those multiple mocap setup purchases and sales).

Seriously, you're the most logical (and reasonable) backer of this project I have ever come across. Clearly you don't belong here. So please leave. Thanks.

Tippis
Mar 21, 2008

It's yet another day in the wasteland.



trucutru posted:

The difference is that in the case of Halo, Diablo, WoW, GTA, etc they *had* something, saw it wasn't fun (or what they wanted) and said "gently caress it, let's re-do, it's our money". In the case of SC they have nothing, it is not fun, and they said "gently caress it, let's re-do, it's their money".

Also, they're not redoing it for any sensible reasons (e.g. “it's not fun” or “it's not working”) but because “The Lord And Saviour Disapproves”.

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless


College Slice

Hopper posted:

To his credit, he actually can provide a logical train of arguments why he supports SC instead of spewing bile, fiddling kiddys or pretending to be his dad/sister/a German audtior at the same time.

Absolutely. He hasn't made a single post - not one - about his support for the game, that wasn't reasonable in its entirety. I just think it's probably Karl's alt, trolling us again.

I mean, look at this crap:

Loiosh posted:

There's no reason to. I have no interest in trying to convince people that they should support this or crowing with delight if it succeeds. My #1 stance with games is: Vote with your wallet. If you don't believe in something, get your refund. If you see a company doing wrong, make sure people know about it. The reason companies get away with doing shady poo poo is that people are too afraid to talk about it: https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/3shr29/mods_in_rstarwarsbattlefront_accept_bribes_from/

Should CIG manage to release this, I'll be happy to have a good game. Should it fail, I'll be sad, but happy for those who got out early. I may disagree with the perception here, but I would never tell someone they were wrong for asking for a refund or having an opinion that CIG will fail. I've made similar decisions in the past, which is why I have not, for example, bought an EA game since ME3/The Old Republic.

Chalks
Sep 30, 2009



It's Seraph84 trying to fool us by registering a new account 5 years in the past then being a reasonable human and good poster with it. Sneaky bastard.

TheShazbot
Feb 20, 2011



I said come in! posted:

lol you have sexual fantasies about this woman, don't you?

Who doesn't.

Loiosh
Jul 25, 2010


trucutru posted:

The difference is that in the case of Halo, Diablo, WoW, GTA, etc they *had* something, saw it wasn't fun (or what they wanted) and said "gently caress it, let's re-do, it's our money". In the case of SC they have nothing, it is not fun, and they said "gently caress it, let's re-do, it's their money".

When you say had something, I'm curious what you mean. Let's pick Bungie as an example. They had a carefully scripted demo that was prerecorded and a third person engine. They demo'd that prerecorded video at MacWorld 1999. This is after they had already done a complete engine change from the Myth II RTS version of Halo. That third person game would have one more engine rewrite (though much smaller, they replaced the entire user control code, some of the movement and the rendering engine).

But at that MacWorld 1999 stage, what they had, was a video and a buggy, feature-incomplete alpha.

Now, why I'm bringing that up:
Internally, CIG has something. They've demoed something on stage. There's even something that users can download, though more limited than what was shown on stage.

So when you say, they had something, what is that something you are referring to, that CIG is lacking?

If you're interested in my perspective on this. They lack a pedigree (obviously, new developer), edit: and they lack the majority of the MMO features that they promised. Almost all of the MMO portion is entirely unaccounted for. According to Derek Smart, they lack the systems to even make the AC 2.0 update that's been shown and the FPS portion [That correct, Derek? I'll admit it's been awhile since I read the blogs]. This is why I bring up my concerns. Unless they pop out AC 2.0, and for my opinion, it needs to come by the end of the year, that would show evidence that they are lying about their status and prove everything that Derek has said is true. They also have some excessive expenditures, like having 4/5 mocap studios. That's entirely foolish in my opinion.

If AC 2.0 comes out and doesn't include the features they said (Derek linked this 3 pages ago), then it'll be unquestionable that they're lying and have been lying.

Which is why I support everyone who is asking for refunds and the like. I get it, and believe people should never put in money to a project they have any question over, and get refunds if they already have.

Loiosh fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Nov 16, 2015

Beer4TheBeerGod
Aug 23, 2004


Exciting Lemon

Loiosh posted:

Everyone seems to be. Both of my roommates are regular (medical) weed users as well and shake their heads at me. I was that one kid who abstinence-only education actually worked on. Until my 20s, basically.

Thanks, Texas.

Well at least you're consistent about being susceptible to propaganda.

G0RF
Mar 19, 2015

Some galactic defender you are, Space Cadet.


D_Smart posted:

This "game" is never - ever - seeing the light of day with Chris, Sandi and Ortwin at the helm. Ever.
But Sandi said they're expecting 200,000 - 500,000 new backers in six months?

quote:

JeuxOnline - In proportion, is that these new players will represent something like 20% of the current total of backers? 50%? 100%? What are your expectations ? I speak for the next six months, not five years.

Sandi - You mean besides the current one million? Perhaps 200 to 500,000 new players.

JeuxOnline - So a good 20% more.

Sandi - Yes, from 20 to 50% more.
"YOU GOTTA BELIEVE!"

G0RF fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Nov 16, 2015

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Loiosh
Jul 25, 2010


Beer4TheBeerGod posted:

Well at least you're consistent about being susceptible to propaganda.

No kidding. My sister and I both were. Our teachers and parents loved it, of course. It took a long time to undue a lot of that influence.

You can guess at how fun it was to explain to my family that not only did that AO not work, but oh, I'm bisexual and I might not be into marriage all that much. Sorry Mom and Dad.

  • Locked thread