Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
peter gabriel
Nov 8, 2011

Hello Commandos


G0RF posted:

Wait I thought you were a delighted Star Citizen yesterday?

24 hours is a long time in Star Citizen my friend
I still think Chris Roberts is a creative genius though, what a guy

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Berious
Nov 13, 2005


peter gabriel posted:

just watch this now:
http://www.twitch.tv/badnewsbaron

it's loving terrible

I watched a dude run around some corridors at 10fps then get disconnected from the server.

Also the nauseating headbob reminds me of a lovely forgotten masterpiece called Boiling Point https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK9NYKGUG4Y

Loiosh
Jul 25, 2010


When it's working, it does look pretty. https://gfycat.com/PaltryQuickEeve

Tank Boy Ken
Aug 24, 2012
J4G for life

Fallen Rib

D_Smart posted:

I have never said that it was a "scam". I said that it was a long con due to how they've handled it. There is a difference.

I'm sorry. I might have worded it badly (english is my my mother tongue). I ment to say that you said it didn't start/was not intended as a Scam.

Dark Off
Aug 14, 2015






KillHour posted:

None of this makes any sense. You would use double precision floats for position data, not 32 bit integers. And instead of your weird tree structure, you would just have the physics engine do calculations relative to the ship's position. I'm not sure how CryEngine implements this, but I'm sure it's built-in functionality. In Unity, you would just make the player a child of the ship's game object (base class for everything in the engine) and do all your movement calculations against the ship's local space. The engine would handle all the nasty conversions under the hood (they're actually not too bad, you just generally don't want to directly modify quaternions. You could write a function to do this yourself, but it's already handled, so why would you?)

I could probably get a simple example coded in less time than it would take me to find and import a ship model to test with.

The bigger issue is syncing all that data between players. But why bother? Only send player position data to people inside the same ship, where you can actually see them.

wouldnt float lose their accuracy due to being rounded decimals? so farther you go in the system the less accurately the game will track the system? and you can manage the load of integers by having them update less often? like it feels like quantum drive, airlocks and pilot seat animations are there to make certain player is at certain position when they are changing zone. Also quaternion related math is darn hard. Also like i said different programmers different ideas (yours better)

Dark Off fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Nov 21, 2015

no_recall
Aug 17, 2015



Lipstick Apathy

Loiosh posted:

When it's working, it does look pretty. https://gfycat.com/PaltryQuickEeve

Looks like the ship has no mass whatsoever.

marumaru
May 20, 2013





I got invited to test the new update. It's a loving huge download, so I checked to see if people were able to play it properly, if there were FPS issues and such.

Apparently the game crashes when you spawn a ship, when you get on your ship, when you try to take off, when you press any button, when you move the camera too fast, when you fire guns and so on.

Noone can play for more than 5 minutes, and usually the game crashes 30 seconds in (and you have to keep trying to log in for several minutes, too)


Yeah, gently caress that.

Strategic Tea
Sep 1, 2012

Please ensure incidental bones are logged under the appropriate cost code.


So do real life jet fighters do the whole 'contact scanning beepbeepbeepbeepbeep scanning beepbeepbeepbeep contact beepbeep contact scanning' nonstop from the moment they leave the runway?

Because apart from usual beta crashing and obnoxious twitch folk, that is the most annoying thing on all these streams.

Loiosh
Jul 25, 2010


no_recall posted:

Looks like the ship has no mass whatsoever.

They totally need to adjust the control curves for bank. In the youtube video you can see the pitch and yaw thrusters are damped significantly so that it has a much slower fine movement with smaller commands. I guess it's good timing that they introduced the ability to do that per-ship now.

G0RF
Mar 19, 2015

Some galactic defender you are, Space Cadet.


Loiosh posted:

When it's working, it does look pretty. https://gfycat.com/PaltryQuickEeve
BadNewsBaron floated into someone's Connie and did a ghostly flythough as it was starting to take damage (on the landing pad). The particle effects were quite lovely and- for about ten seconds- the scene was pretty majestic.

Then the ship disappeared, Baron set foot on the pad, then started spinning non-stop until he committed ingame suicide.

It was a perfect 30 second encapsulation of the Star Citizen experience to date.

peter gabriel
Nov 8, 2011

Hello Commandos


I saw 3 loading screens in a row then a crash to desktop then the launcher crashed, he had to verify his files then the log in failed and when it did log in it crashed instantly

All the time the people in chat were talking about what ship they were buying next :psyduck:

Loiosh
Jul 25, 2010


G0RF posted:

BadNewsBaron floated into someone's Connie and did a ghostly flythough as it was starting to take damage (on the landing pad). The particle effects were quite lovely and- for about ten seconds- the scene was pretty majestic.

Then the ship disappeared, Baron set foot on the pad, then started spinning non-stop until he committed ingame suicide.

It was a perfect 30 second encapsulation of the Star Citizen experience to date.

Yup, there's some weirdness going on with the collision system not updating correctly. Yesterday he spawned a Ret and couldn't walk to the cockpit because the server was updating his zone to be inside the Ret as he entered, but the collision zone was still the global one (the station). So he would step off the ramp and fall through the ship. Whoops!

They've indicated that's in the next patch, which is supposed to come Sunday/Monday, along with a number of other crash fixes.

peter gabriel
Nov 8, 2011

Hello Commandos


Can't wait for the patch!
Seems like quite a quickly written fix all patch, maybe someone should have checked if the collision detection is off and done the patch before the big hyped up release, but what do I know for I am just a man

marumaru
May 20, 2013





peter gabriel posted:

All the time the people in chat were talking about what ship they were buying next :psyduck:

I mean... I can see the game being fun once they finish it (within realistic expectations - I doubt they'll deliver on all of those insane feature creep-y promises of theirs), but how the hell does an insanely buggy, crash-prone and unoptimized test branch update make you go "yeah, this looks good and makes me want to spend more money".

If it was the hopefully bug-free main branch update it'd make more sense...

peter gabriel
Nov 8, 2011

Hello Commandos


Also we do know how they hate delays so there's that

peter gabriel
Nov 8, 2011

Hello Commandos


Inacio posted:

I mean... I can see the game being fun once they finish it (within realistic expectations - I doubt they'll deliver on all of those insane feature creep-y promises of theirs), but how the hell does an insanely buggy, crash-prone and unoptimized test branch update make you go "yeah, this looks good and makes me want to spend more money".

If it was the hopefully bug-free main branch update it'd make more sense...

They are lost souls now that operate using previously untapped parts of the brain, we cannot understand them

peter gabriel
Nov 8, 2011

Hello Commandos


Man it's just frustrating, if they could only make the game work on a basic level and then have some kind of content it'd be fantastic, so near yet so far :(

AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them


Grimey Drawer

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15071-AnniVERSEary-Sale-Pirates



Next daily sale.

eonwe
Aug 11, 2008



Lipstick Apathy


lol

Tortolia
Dec 29, 2005

Hindustan Electronics Employee of the Month, July 2008


Grimey Drawer

Maybe my expectations are skewed, but for a 1 million backer, 95 million dollar savior of PC gaming I would expect more than 1500 twitch viewers the Saturday after a much heralded release. Mario Maker has more viewers.

Loiosh
Jul 25, 2010


peter gabriel posted:

They are lost souls now that operate using previously untapped parts of the brain, we cannot understand them

And they have money, holy crap. They just sold the full 1,000 $30 starter packs after 10 minutes.

AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them


Grimey Drawer



800 odd watchers

I wonder what his cut is.

When I started watching his stream a bot message told me that even if I wasn't watching to leave his stream open in another tab as it helps him and helps me collect "cookies".

Nice to see everyone is inflating their real audience figures, he should get a referral program going.

neonbregna
Aug 20, 2007


Lol nerds are going to make this a 100 million dollar simulator

peter gabriel
Nov 8, 2011

Hello Commandos


Tortolia posted:

Maybe my expectations are skewed, but for a 1 million backer, 95 million dollar savior of PC gaming I would expect more than 1500 twitch viewers the Saturday after a much heralded release. Mario Maker has more viewers.

Yeah I see that too, tumble weeds everywhere.
I work on the assumption that actually watching the game for real would destroy their fan_fic.pdf immersion and it's more than they can take.

AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them


Grimey Drawer

800 people watching him crash for hours and he's showing them a sale. "Hurry, they go quickly!"

AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them


Grimey Drawer

I think they're making it constantly crash just before sale starts.

Man this is boring, might as well buy something.

AP fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Nov 21, 2015

A Neurotic Jew
Feb 17, 2012

by exmarx


wait just yesterday he was bragging about how stable his stream was after the latest patch. I even watched for about 10 minutes and he actually *didn't crash* which surprised me.

Now he's back to crashing constantly? So what did that patch actually do. lol.

Octopode
Sep 2, 2009

No. I work here. I manage operations for this and integration for this, while making sure that their stuff keeps working in here.

Dark Off posted:

wouldnt float lose their accuracy due to being rounded decimals? so farther you go in the system the less accurately the game will track the system? and you can manage the load of integers by having them update less often? like it feels like quantum drive, airlocks and pilot seat animations are there to make certain player is at certain position when they are changing zone. Also quaternion related math is darn hard. Also like i said different programmers different ideas (yours better)

Floats losing their accuracy as you get larger mantissa is exactly the problem; effectively, moving to 64-bit floating points gives you a much larger selection of numbers before that happens.

Using integers doesn't change the underlying problem, which is that you have to track positional changes in very small increments, or you see an object jump from one place to another instead of moving smoothly. So, you're not tracking a object as it moves from 0,0,0 to 1,1,1 to 2,2,2; you're actually tracking it as it moves from 0,0,0 to 0.000001,0.000001,0.000001 to 0.000002,0.000002,0.000002 and so on. The individual position divisions have to be small enough that the movement is smooth. Someone a few dozen pages ago pointed out you could do this using integers if you used 128-bit integers and used nanometer precision--that's true. The problem is that you have to do the math for this in real time to keep things moving, and there's not really any way to do high-performance 128-bit integer math.

Floating points are used because they give you a much larger amount of total representable values in the same bit-space, so you have enough discrete values to track the tiny amount of movement. With a signed 32-bit int, you can store a maximum value of 2^31-1; with a signed 32-bit float you can store a maximum value of about 3.4 x 10^38, although the actual number of useful values in this case isn't that high due to precision loss.

64-bit floating point is a tradeoff between the precision issues of 32-bit floating point, and the performance issues of higher bit count numbers; it's about the limit of where you can still get enough performance to do it in real time, but still has enough values available to provide an acceptable level of precision in very large spaces. Exactly how large depends on what your smallest movement "step" is in the engine, however, but in most cases it will translate into at least several million kilometers in each direction.

Sneeze Party
Apr 26, 2002

These are, by far, the most brilliant photographs that I have ever seen, and you are a GOD AMONG MEN.

Toilet Rascal

I can remember when Project Ego was going to be this amazing open-world game where your decisions would have lasting effects, and the townspeople would have unique and emergent behaviors based on your reputation, and decisions would have HUGE consequences, wow. Then Fable came out and it was nothing like the original promises. It was an on-rails Diablo-esque crawl and my character could occasionally get like a scar on his face and the towns people either whistled or cowered. Wow.

And I remember Black and White, when you were a God and you could do anything, and your creature would have amazing emergent behaviors and would learn and grow and be like its own little person. Then it came out, and wow, it throws rocks sometimes. And it was all totally predictable.

And then there was Spore, where you could literally watch a life form evolve over the course of the years, and your creature would be totally unique and millions of combinations and omg, and create amazing societies, and it was going to be SO AWESOME and the promises were SO GREAT. And then Spore came out, and the microbe stuff was interesting but then it was just like... alright.

Then there's Star Citizen. You're promised an open-world, EVE-like game, plus elements of a game like Planetside, plus an amazing economy system, and there will be hundreds of ships, and you can be a mercenary, and you can be a politician, and you can be a crafter, and you can be a pew pew guy, and it's a FPS, and it's a city simulation, and it's a space simulator, and it's a sandbox, and it does EVERYTHING.

And it just. Looks. Like. A. Lie. Chris Roberts has millions and millions and millions of dollars of his fans money and the whole thing looks like such a melt down.

flyboi
Oct 13, 2005

agg stop posting


College Slice

A Neurotic Jew posted:

wait just yesterday he was bragging about how stable his stream was after the latest patch. I even watched for about 10 minutes and he actually *didn't crash* which surprised me.

Now he's back to crashing constantly? So what did that patch actually do. lol.

From what I heard the short while of watching the stream he said that more people are playing and the servers can't handle it.

peter gabriel
Nov 8, 2011

Hello Commandos


Octopode posted:

Floats losing their accuracy as you get larger mantissa is exactly the problem; effectively, moving to 64-bit floating points gives you a much larger selection of numbers before that happens.

Using integers doesn't change the underlying problem, which is that you have to track positional changes in very small increments, or you see an object jump from one place to another instead of moving smoothly. So, you're not tracking a object as it moves from 0,0,0 to 1,1,1 to 2,2,2; you're actually tracking it as it moves from 0,0,0 to 0.000001,0.000001,0.000001 to 0.000002,0.000002,0.000002 and so on. The individual position divisions have to be small enough that the movement is smooth. Someone a few dozen pages ago pointed out you could do this using integers if you used 128-bit integers and used nanometer precision--that's true. The problem is that you have to do the math for this in real time to keep things moving, and there's not really any way to do high-performance 128-bit integer math.

Floating points are used because they give you a much larger amount of total representable values in the same bit-space, so you have enough discrete values to track the tiny amount of movement. With a signed 32-bit int, you can store a maximum value of 2^31-1; with a signed 32-bit float you can store a maximum value of about 3.4 x 10^38, although the actual number of useful values in this case isn't that high due to precision loss.

64-bit floating point is a tradeoff between the precision issues of 32-bit floating point, and the performance issues of higher bit count numbers; it's about the limit of where you can still get enough performance to do it in real time, but still has enough values available to provide an acceptable level of precision in very large spaces. Exactly how large depends on what your smallest movement "step" is in the engine, however, but in most cases it will translate into at least several million kilometers in each direction.

Read this while watching a stream and tell me how many times it crashes before you finish lol

Octopode
Sep 2, 2009

No. I work here. I manage operations for this and integration for this, while making sure that their stuff keeps working in here.

A Neurotic Jew posted:

wait just yesterday he was bragging about how stable his stream was after the latest patch. I even watched for about 10 minutes and he actually *didn't crash* which surprised me.

Now he's back to crashing constantly? So what did that patch actually do. lol.

Prior to the patch, everyone's clients were crashing within 5-10 minutes, so they were not able to really put any load on the servers. After the patch, people are able to play long enough to load the servers, which then causes server issues or crashes, which then cause the client to get disconnected or get disconnected and then crash because the client didn't handle the disconnect gracefully.

There are still some client crashes as well, but they are much less frequent than the server issues right now.

A Neurotic Jew
Feb 17, 2012

by exmarx


The reason people are impressed with Alpha 2.0 is because they're comparing it to Arena Commander and the Social Module, when they should be comparing it to Elder Scrolls and World of Warcraft.

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK
Sep 11, 2001





peter gabriel posted:

just watch this now:
http://www.twitch.tv/badnewsbaron

it's loving terrible

quote:

Mopia123: SC is handcrafted , Elite Dangerous is procedural

lmao this chat

artisanal handcrafted maps from old world masters

edit: and now he's spent like 15 mins trying to connect to a server. im out

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Nov 21, 2015

Prop Wash
Jun 12, 2010





I mean it's definite progress, and I can understand why that would psych some people up, but you'd have to be insane to see this and decide to spend money on it.

peter gabriel
Nov 8, 2011

Hello Commandos


Octopode posted:

Prior to the patch, everyone's clients were crashing within 5-10 minutes, so they were not able to really put any load on the servers. After the patch, people are able to play long enough to load the servers, which then causes server issues or crashes, which then cause the client to get disconnected or get disconnected and then crash because the client didn't handle the disconnect gracefully.

There are still some client crashes as well, but they are much less frequent than the server issues right now.

With all due respect you can't do this anymore, that era is over.
The streams are on right now - we can see the crashes first hand, there is no where to hide now. We see it.

marumaru
May 20, 2013






wow.

Loiosh
Jul 25, 2010


A Neurotic Jew posted:

wait just yesterday he was bragging about how stable his stream was after the latest patch. I even watched for about 10 minutes and he actually *didn't crash* which surprised me.

Now he's back to crashing constantly? So what did that patch actually do. lol.

After the patch and verifying the build was stable (for about two hours they had no issues), they wanted to test load and increased the invites from 1,000 to 15,000. Now we're back to server disconnects (Disconnected, Code 0) and some client crashes.

They've said they'll be doing another patch tomorrow or Monday to fix up the crashes and then go back to doing more invites again to test load further.

Octopode
Sep 2, 2009

No. I work here. I manage operations for this and integration for this, while making sure that their stuff keeps working in here.

peter gabriel posted:

With all due respect you can't do this anymore, that era is over.
The streams are on right now - we can see the crashes first hand, there is no where to hide now. We see it.

Yes, which means you can see exactly what I'm talking about. Almost all of the crashes are proceeded by the screen going totally black, then the client getting disconnected; that's a server issue, not a client crash.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK
Sep 11, 2001





Octopode posted:

Yes, which means you can see exactly what I'm talking about. Almost all of the crashes are proceeded by the screen going totally black, then the client getting disconnected; that's a server issue, not a client crash.

ah yes before people would crash every 5 minutes because of the client

apparently now people crash every 5 minutes because of the server

thanks for clearing this up pedanticpode

  • Locked thread