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Paladinus
Jan 11, 2014

heyHEYYYY!!!
No, but you see, before bugs were in the client, but now they are all server side. Because there is no actual way to test performance of a server without allowing real users to do that for you. If only there was something like performance testing that you could easily perform before releasing your lovely pre-pre-pre-pre-prealpha that can't go five minutes without a crash. Hm... You guys just don't understand how development works. :smug:

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Jack-Off Lantern
Mar 2, 2012

kordansk posted:

This game is already out in the same universe that the Axis Powers won WW2.

Nah,Roberts would get forced labor for swindling the Gutbürgertum out of their Spacereichsmark. The Game would come out but be rebranded as Weltall-Simulator 3000 AD.

Tahirovic
Feb 25, 2009
Fun Shoe
The best SC feature is the refund option.

Daztek
Jun 2, 2006



Star Citizen has finally won me over posted:

I've been a heavy critic of this game for a long time. I called it everything from a scam to a waste of time, and the word "vaporware" was common in my vocabulary. After looking at this PTU footage, though, it finally clicked - it isn't too good to be real, it is real. It isn't out, of course, so there's still room to be wary, but my blind hate has turned into hype.

:psyduck:

AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them
Grimey Drawer

Chalks
Sep 30, 2009


I actually sympathise with this perspective. 2.0 makes SC look like it'll be a pretty middle of the road video game about space ships. "not too good to be real" is a pretty low bar and this latest release looks like it's going to meet that.

People saying that 2.0 proves that SC is going to be a revolutionary space sim are completely out of their minds, true. It looks astonishingly unambitious, but that also makes me think it'll be a game and maybe it'll even be fun for a bit.

AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them
Grimey Drawer


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvIDdAgyQik

This is the best Star Citizen video I've ever seen.

AP fucked around with this message at 11:03 on Nov 23, 2015

EminusSleepus
Sep 28, 2015

AP posted:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvIDdAgyQik

This is the best Star Citizen video I've ever seen.

it would be perfect if the characters doing that are Larry,Curly and Mo

AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them
Grimey Drawer

EminusSleepus posted:

it would be perfect if the characters doing that are Larry,Curly and Mo

It's an almost perfect Star Citizen experience. The Cutlass guy just needed someone standing halfway up the ramp trying to sell him something as he passes and in the end he decides to cross chassis upgrade to a Superhornet anyway.

Orions Lord
May 21, 2012
So I am 3500 post behind surely the game is out now?

AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them
Grimey Drawer

Orions Lord posted:

So I am 3500 post behind surely the game is out now?

Sides and top are done, still working on the floor.

Paladinus
Jan 11, 2014

heyHEYYYY!!!

AP posted:

Sides and top are done, still working on the floor.

When the game is out, there will be no fourth wall. Revolution in gaming.

LastCaress
May 8, 2004

bonobo
2.0 is a good tech demo, if I only knew that about the game I would say it could become a very fun game in 2-3 years. The problem is that they already spent millions and 3+ years to get to this point and they made way too many promises about it's future gameplay. Promises they have to keep, as people have purchased ships that require new gameplay mechanics to be introduced. Oh and some stuff is always going to be a problem (like animations for everything, sure it's pretty to see the first time but nobody wants to see the same unskipable sequence every time they take the command of a ship)

Photosyphilis
Jul 17, 2014

Science rules!

AP posted:

Sides and top are done, still working on the floor.

I see what you did there

Alexander DeLarge
Dec 20, 2013

LastCaress posted:

2.0 is a good tech demo, if I only knew that about the game I would say it could become a very fun game in 2-3 years. The problem is that they already spent millions and 3+ years to get to this point and they made way too many promises about it's future gameplay. Promises they have to keep, as people have purchased ships that require new gameplay mechanics to be introduced. Oh and some stuff is always going to be a problem (like animations for everything, sure it's pretty to see the first time but nobody wants to see the same unskipable sequence every time they take the command of a ship)

People put up with the ACC in The Phantom Pain, I think they can deal with a 5 second animation.

fuctifino
Jun 11, 2001


Are the turrets on ships able to blow up the same ship?

Amun Khonsu
Sep 15, 2012

wtf did he just say?
Grimey Drawer
So far we only have fancy graphics

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless
College Slice

Chocobo posted:

I've heard that Chris Roberts is a convicted sex offender in the state of New York.

It's not true. Please don't do that.

That's not funny, it's outright defamatory, and people get sued for that. Let's not taint what's looking to be an incessant laugh-a-thon to this sort of thing.

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless
College Slice

Rudager posted:

I still don't quite understand why they went for mo-capping instead of full on FMV like Wing Commander 3/4.

Seems like the fanbase would have lapped that up even harder.

Because those are two different things.

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless
College Slice

Mirificus posted:

A Star Citizen was unfortunately prevented from spreading the word to their friends:



https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3ttw5n/fck_the_quantity_limited_packages/

It's bullshit. These are the Grey market traders

Agrajag
Jan 21, 2006

gat dang thats hot

T.G. Xarbala posted:

Hey, warcrimes came back and not to much fanfare.

It's telling that a bunch of people came in to the thread after 2.0 got rolled out thinking that it was good enough to vindicate their stalwart and loyal defense of Star Citizen, but everyone is too busy laughing at 2.0 to notice.

awwww i missed all the fun

FactsAreUseless
Feb 16, 2011

Do NOT post anything that could cause the laugh thons to cess, due to legal lawsuits.

Agrajag
Jan 21, 2006

gat dang thats hot

the flight movement looks like they used noclip or something.

Alexander DeLarge
Dec 20, 2013

A Neurotic Jew posted:

At CitizenCon Chris Roberts literally said they will not be giving any more release dates and the audience broke into applause.

Is that really such a bad thing though? It was included with the caveat of "it's coming soon, but we're not going to say a specific date just to keep disappointing you"

poo poo happens in game development. I can't imagine something of this magnitude. Keep in mind that we live in a day and age where date are announced 9 months ahead of release, and then they're ALWAYS delayed. Here is a list of what I remember (and I'm not good at remembering these things)

Batman Arkham Knight
The Witcher 3
Battlefront Hardline
Deus Ex Mankind Divided
Dark Souls II
Bloodborne
Uncharted 4
Hitman
The Division
Evolve
The Order 1866
Dying Light
Mad Max

They've been within a six month period of the updated timeline, that's good enough for me. At least they're not making the same mistake over and over and over throughout development and getting people's hopes up.

Alexander DeLarge fucked around with this message at 12:11 on Nov 23, 2015

FactsAreUseless
Feb 16, 2011

Star Citizen is nothing but another release dating sim.

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless
College Slice

Toysrme posted:

I've known quite a few over the years that have for various reasons. A few because they lost interest in the project. Most because they needed the money elsewhere in their lives.

Before Derek; it normally took a few days to two weeks, entirely based upon how busy customer service was.(Understandable). You did not need a "sob story". Just the truth of why you wanted a refund.
After Derek... Now you are all but ignored unless you have "a really good sob story", and it takes weeks to months to have an electronic refund issued. At the point CIG agrees to a full refund (*If* they even do, and note a distunction between a partial refund and a full refund). They will terminate your account, mark the CS issue as closed/resolved & cease responding to any further emails. Regardless of how long they take to get that instant electronic refund issued.

CIG's lock-down of funds is understandable for a business position. You shouldn't let the company vanish into thin air... On the other hand, when people genuinely do not believe in an un-delivered product, do not believe they will be happy with it, or simply need the money... Their money should not be held hostage "unless they have a sob story", "unless they threaten" or "become a complete rear end in a top hat to all the white knight whales CIG doesn't listen too".
CIG should should allow people to leave as long as the company is not in imminent danger of collapse (panic rush, which itself is completely silly logic on their part... While an embarrassing situation, at this point they could get outside funding if they needed it...)
They should also treat people with the same energy & vigor going out as they do going in. Not curb-toss them.

More people would leave, but more people would return if shown simple courtesy.

Most everyone I know that have left, or wanted to leave. Also is open to buying back into CIG at a later date (situations for leaving resolved). At the same time... The reports of how they handle things "post Derek" and "post SC-TOS change / before original date" is not indicative of people leaving and returning later.

The entire "refund" policy needs to be looked into and evaluated...

Yup. And this is precisely why I have been pushing since July for refund reform and helping people get their refunds. What we have found most effective are two things 1) chargeback 2) say "Fine, if you don't refund me, I'm going to go talk to Derek Smart"

They have failed - time and time again - to deliver the game; so people (especially the original KS backers) are deserving of a no-questions-asked refund. And every single release date ever announced, has been missed. Every single one. At CitCon, he just went straight to "OK, no more release dates for modules, but the game is being delivered in 2016". Going back 2.0 and the state of the 1.x kernel, that too is pure bollocks.

Truga
May 4, 2014
Lipstick Apathy

FactsAreUseless posted:

Star Citizen is nothing but another release dating sim.

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless
College Slice

Sarsapariller posted:

Tonight's PTU tests: my self-imposed mission, to spawn a retaliator and fly it to another station, get out, and walk around.

Attempt 1: Logged into hangar, sat in retaliator cockpit- all functionality disabled, couldn't get out of seat. Exited game.

Attempts 2-5: Variations on "Login not authenticated!" or "Connection failed!" or "Server full!"

Attempt 6: Logged into hangar, got the Port Olisar ptu running, joined a bunch of people pulling up ships. Attempted to pull up retaliator- got an error message saying pad was full. All functionality disabled, couldn't leave the screen. Exited game.

Attempt 7: Logged into hangar, got the Port Olisar ptu running, got a retaliator spawned. Ran out and decided to look at Engineering section. Immediately got stuck on the first console I tried- no way to "Close" it. The shield sliders did work though, that was nice. Some rando grabbed the pilot seat and flew it into a combat zone. At least I assume that's what happened because it started flying while I was stuck there, and target markers started appearing on my HUD. Game was taking enormous performance hits too- pausing for 4-5 seconds every 30 or so. Exited game.

Attempt 8 - 11: Connection failed! Server Full! Time out! Time out!

Attempt 12: Got retaliator spawned, went to get in it- fell through the floor. Tried several more times- the ship was basically a ghost. Saw another retaliator flying nearby, so I flew over to try and board it. Zero-G movement is super unwieldy but I kind of like the awkwardness of it. Managed to get the hatch on the top of the ship open but could not get inside. Tried several times and then the game crashed.

Attempt 13: Couldn't spawn anything because two Constellations were hovering above the landing pad. Space-walked up to one of them, game crashed.

Attempt 14: Got it spawned, fell through the floor again. Was going to try flying through the top but the game hard crashed.

Other bugs noticed: tons of lighting and graphical glitches.
  • The head bob is unbelievably garbage. Just turning your mouse to move your view causes the whole loving camera to bob around as your character shifts his feet. Of all the bugs I encountered this was by far the least forgivable. It makes the game feel just awful in first person.
  • Asteroid hangar has some weird gamma bug where it appears normal after I log in, and then over about 10 seconds it lightens until everything is washed out.
  • The elevator would occasionally open up with bright red lighting for no discernible reason.
  • Lots of items popping in as I traveled closer to them.
  • The error dialog boxes tended to freeze all the menus except for time out, which allowed me to interact with the menus behind it. It then stayed on the screen when I loaded back into the asteroid hangar. None of the error boxes would actually clear if you hit "Ok."
  • The spinning rings on the station were very visibly twitching back and forth, some kind of glitched animation.
  • Ships consistently flew around with landing gear in the wrong position and engines folded up, that sort of thing.
  • By attempt 12 or so, all of the attempts were plagued with the "Show 10 seconds of game, pause for 5 seconds" issue, which made it more or less impossible to do anything.


Summary: To call it "Unplayable" would be... generous. As a software developer I'm truly shocked that they would let anyone outside of internal testers see it in this state- but I realize that the demands of their bosses aren't exactly grounded in reality. Nothing I saw was truly unfixable though, and there are little glimmers of an amazing game peeking through here and there- EVA'ing to other people's ships was an incredible feeling, as was just standing in the docking bay lounge and watching people and ships interact. But in the current state it's really not stable enough to even evaluate whether or not the mechanics are interesting- mostly it's just an exercise in learning what not to touch to avoid crashing.

I would put these errors in the "Issue Council" except CIG did not send me a password to log into the ptu site when they sent me the PTU invitation. Guess they didn't want the feedback that much.

It's a LOT worse than this. And your closing comments is precisely why this was released prematurely. Just as I said they would back in Oct. Aside from the fan boys, this hurt them more than anything before. But hey, they will make some money this Nov and be happy about it.

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless
College Slice

Sarsapariller posted:

There is currently absolutely nothing stopping you from grabbing every single ship off the landing pad. They will ultimately fix that of course, at which point there will be nothing stopping you from filling the landing pads with 10 locked ships.

Aside from the stealing (btw, this is why Line Of Defense has asset lock) ships, any ship left on the landing pad despawns after 8 mins. So no much griefing there.

LastCaress
May 8, 2004

bonobo
It's funny how one of the complaints against publishers was having deadlines and having to rush things and they're doing the same, rushing whatever they had to present it as 2.0 during the 3rd anniversary.

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless
College Slice

Alexander DeLarge posted:

I'm sure they could have, if they were working with a custom engine that was made specifically for Star Citizen. Their version of CryEngine is doing things that no other engine is capable of doing technologically

Sorry, not true. The custom engine (1, 2) we built for LOD does everything their custom CE3 engine does and then some. Plus we've done honest-to-goodness planetary landing.

Maybe I missed something in what they engine is capable of technologically that is so ground breaking?

ps: I try not to shill my game when talking about SC because it would be unfair (to them).

Alexander DeLarge posted:

Suspecting a 2016 beta (without wipes) and a 2017 launch though.

But here's the problem. They haven't yet built the game world. Everything we are seeing now in 2.0 is what we saw in gamecom, CitCon and anniversary stream. And they didn't show any other bases last week. Instead, they shows a mile high club.

No way in hell this goes from pre-Alpha at the end of 2015, to Beta in 2016.

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless
College Slice

Bootcha posted:

In my opinion, now as an outsider, the trouble CIG is going to have in the next year is as follows:

1) Employee Turnover: As witnessed in the last 2 years, employees and management in dev-critical positions have come and gone frequently. There are very few devs from the original buildup, like Skelton, MacKay, Forrest, Craig, quiet Paul, and probably 3 others I can't remember off the top of my head. 8 from the first 20 from ex-Lightbox and associated ex-Origin. No one from ex-Origin (excluding Tony Z who came late) is still there. MacKay/Skelton/Forrest are from Lightbox. The current trend of hiring someone, that someone seeing just how much poo poo he/she has to do, running face first into the "vision" and upper level mismanagement, and loving off to find a better job will continue to stagnate productivity.

2) Growing Backer Ire: You can't please everyone all the time. The disconnect between what backers think the game will be, what CR alludes what the game will be, and what the product will actually have, will start to turn sour. PR and Community Management have done little to temper expectations, choosing to distract with non-core feature flash (fish tanks, new jpegs, mocap). The recent 2.0 mission system alludes that this is "only a test" for more grand immersive gameplay, but in reality will be closer to the main gameplay. This expectation vs reality will hit many backers hard and make them question the depth of their financial (if not emotional) investment in this product.

3) Squadron 42 Ep1 Release: This is the litmus test, the make or break deal. If core physics and gameplay haven't been hammered out by this point, or if SQ42 slips another year due to "technical difficulties and blockers", then the writing is on the wall as far as product health. Any delay will probably be met with "well, film some more mocap" filler waste to appear productive.

2) Arbitrary Feature Cuts: You like ramming? Well, our physics calculations are borked, so it only applies to shield damage. Engine tuning? Eh, we couldn't figure it out in time, here's a dozen I-XII engine types. Cargo Commander? We can barely keep players from breaking the localized physics grids, your poo poo is in these brown non-interactive boxes. Dynamic missions in SQ42? Chris wanted to tell a specific story, and doesn't want you to miss a moment of his vision, so it's linear.

^this

Which is precisely why I keep saying that if this project survives 2016, I would very surprised. The tipping point is going to be where the funding fall off gets to the critical point whereby month take is no longer sufficient to sustain FOUR studios.

Cao Ni Ma
May 25, 2010



Alexander DeLarge posted:

Is that really such a bad thing though?

Yes. It is.

Normally when a publisher is involved, even when self published without using crowed sourcing like CDPR did with the witcher 3, there is a vested interest in actually releasing the game. Because thats how they actually recoup their money. The publisher is already invested and something will come out, baring some catastrophic mismanagement, usually because the publisher straight up goes out of business.

In this case, there is no interest in actually having something out in a reasonable time frame. Whales are still dumping hundreds of dollars on concept and in the event that everything collapses I'm sure the people that are going to be left holding the bag aren't the executives at CIG.

BastionPete
Nov 4, 2015
It is a PTU release, it's not surprising at all that it's got issues that need to be fixed. I have it installed and I agree, it's crashing a lot and is highly frustrating, that said, the core gameplay looks really interesting and has a lot of potential to be fun.
When the SocialModule released it had almost a daily patching schedule and a lot of issues were quickly fixed. It's only been out for one working day so far, so I'm not particularly surprised that it's crashing a lot. Give it a couple of weeks and if it's still garbage then sure, we can say there are deeper problems.

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless
College Slice

Sarsapariller posted:

I worry they're going to fix the bugs in this build- and then, like Arena Commander, basically forget it except for the occasional ship release.

Yes, pretty much what I said this past September.

Paladinus
Jan 11, 2014

heyHEYYYY!!!

BastionPete posted:

It is a PTU release, it's not surprising at all that it's got issues that need to be fixed. I have it installed and I agree, it's crashing a lot and is highly frustrating, that said, the core gameplay looks really interesting and has a lot of potential to be fun.
When the SocialModule released it had almost a daily patching schedule and a lot of issues were quickly fixed. It's only been out for one working day so far, so I'm not particularly surprised that it's crashing a lot. Give it a couple of weeks and if it's still garbage then sure, we can say there are deeper problems.

What is gameplay? I've watched about several hours of people running through some corridors and clipping through ships at this point, but I still have no idea what this game is supposed to be.

Maldoror
Oct 5, 2003

by R. Guyovich
Nap Ghost
How To Take The 'Cult' Out Of Your Company Culture

Forbes - Entrepreneurs
Nov 3, 2014 @ 10:27 AM

by Chris Cancialosi
Contributor

When you think of a cult, do shuttle buses come to mind? Probably not, but Silicon Valley tech companies have used this method of transportation to keep their workers isolated from the rest of the world. And as they bind their employees closer together, workers are significantly less likely to leave.

While the term "cult" often conjures up mental images of drab clothes, remote farms, and blue Kool-Aid, cults can also refer to the culture within certain companies. A cult, after all, is simply a group connected by appreciation for the same thing, person, or ideal.

There's no doubt that articulating a clear and compelling vision for the future of your organization can drive member excitement, but things get murky when control enters the equation. If your company culture governs the thinking and behavior of its members, then you might be entering cult territory.

Your Company Might Be a Cult If…

There are multiple signs that indicate that your company is exhibiting cult-like behavior - for example, encouraging your employees to blindly follow a charismatic leader. By taking the leader's opinions as fact, your company may grow so rigid that innovation becomes impossible.

Additionally, organizations that minimize two-way dialogue stifle growth and encourage employees to accept the status quo and silence their opinions. However, creating an environment where people don't push back and aren't engaged in healthy debate can lead to serious problems.

Lastly, in cult-like organizations, values are taken to such an extreme that anyone who questions the way things are done is quickly ostracized or ejected.

Create a Collaborative Environment

All of these practices can seriously endanger the health of your organization. If you're noticing any of them creeping up, put these four fixes in place to safeguard your company from becoming more of a cult than a culture:

1. Take Responsibility

Once you've diagnosed the situation, take responsibility rather than avoid the issues at hand. Author Ronald Heifetz suggests reducing avoidance mechanisms such as denying, scapegoating, or pretending that the problem is technical. Companies that attack individuals rather than issues risk further cult-like behavior. Owning the behavior is difficult. You should allow people to take responsibility for problems, but they should do so at a rate they can handle.

2. Introduce New Talent

Strive to introduce new, talented employees who live on the fringes of a culture fit. If you onboard people who challenge the culture, your company will be able to grow and mature. You may need to rely on new members of the organization to raise the issue of cult-like behavior because they're experiencing your company for the first time. Encourage acceptance of these new employees - particularly when your goal is to change the company's trajectory.

3. Create Dialogue Mechanisms

Develop mechanisms for leaders and employees to engage in honest, two-way dialogue in a safe environment. Talking with new hires, consultants, and advisors will force your organization to think about problems from multiple angles. You must protect people who raise hard questions. At first, raising these potential problems will generate distress, but the questions will challenge your employees to rethink the issues at stake.

4. Reward Responsible Risk-Taking

Establish a new team, business, or investment with clear authority to take risks and create beyond the organization's previous boundaries. Businesses can only grow through introducing new ideas and taking appropriate risks. Share the charter of the new team with your company to ensure that individuals threatened by the venture know that the team is working on behalf of the whole.

Some companies would disagree with the notion that creating a cult-like culture is a bad thing - they believe that culture drives people's thinking and behaviors to increase performance and productivity. It's a fine line to walk, but leaders shouldn't be compelled to manipulate their employees or do things that benefit the company at the expense of employee livelihood.

Instead, create a system in which people are informed, engaged, and aligned around a compelling path forward. If you promote an open environment that values new talent, you may even save a few dollars on bus fare.

Chris Cancialosi, Ph. D. , is managing partner and founder at gothamCulture.

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless
College Slice

Tippis posted:

More accurately: it's doing things that any other engine is capable of doing, and where CryEngine is probably by far the worst choice to base the whole thing on since it just ends up being a needlessly complicated rendering pipeline that is still linked (albeit weakly) to nothing more than a single-purpose tech demo that is in every way unfit for purpose.

Giving them a pass because they've picked an inherently incompatible and unsuitable engine is nonsensical — it's the kind of thing they should be harshly criticised for, especially when we've seen similar things being done in other engines. Maybe not with all the bells and whistles, but with more useful core fundamentals that they could build on. At best, an argument could be made that CryEngine makes pretty pictures and that all they're actually using is that rendering pipeline, but even then, it's a highly questionable choice since it was always a niche product with little to no shelf life and where none of the marquee features that sets the engine apart are really being used in this game.

^this. Pretty much what I said back in July. And got incessantly attacked for it. Here we are in Nov.

Erenthal
Jan 1, 2008

A relaxing walk in the woods
Grimey Drawer

Paladinus posted:

What is gameplay? I've watched about several hours of people running through some corridors and clipping through ships at this point, but I still have no idea what this game is supposed to be.

It's whatever you can imagine! That's the draw of this game, since they never explain anything it is everything to everyone simultaneously.

But yeah, I agree that there are glimpses of fun and good gameplay in what I've seen of 2.0. But can anyone honestly claim that it's 15000$ gameplay? Or 5000$ gameplay? Even 250$ gameplay? I would probably spend 24.99 if it was something that was just released on early access for Steam or something. But there's no loving way that the people who spent hundreds or thousands of dollars on it will get anything amounting to their money's worth. But oh, they'll tell themselves they've have.

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Maldoror
Oct 5, 2003

by R. Guyovich
Nap Ghost
welcome to star citizen

welcome

to star citizen

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