Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
Beer4TheBeerGod
Aug 23, 2004


Exciting Lemon

Sarsapariller posted:

Several hundred at the very least.

I would say you're doing God's work, but in reality you're just feeding quarters into the dick punching machine.

Dick Puncher: The Legacy of Travis

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Beer4TheBeerGod
Aug 23, 2004


Exciting Lemon

2.0h is now released to the PTU. Apparently Arena Commander is back so if you guys want to see if the jittering is still there now you can do that.

Ramc
May 4, 2008


A friend of mine just got this.

Tortolia
Dec 29, 2005

Hindustan Electronics Employee of the Month, July 2008


Grimey Drawer

Sarsapariller posted:

No poo poo. This is the understatement of the century, somewhere between "Hiroshima feels unseasonably warm for August" and "Star Citizens are a little carefree with their money."

You have a wonderful way with words. :holymoley:

Please keep posting these trip reports, they are a highlight of the thread.

Navraz
Sep 17, 2007

I blame it on my own sick pride


Sugartime Jones

i find the cry engine to be the best engine because the devs cries tears of blood.

Truga
May 4, 2014


Lipstick Apathy

Ooooh a new patch. Estimated 22 minutes. Let's see in what wonderous ways we crash today.

e: Much like CIG, patcher missed its ETA by over 100%

Truga fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Dec 5, 2015

Beet Wagon
Oct 19, 2015







Welp, got my PTU invite. I guess it's time to get this poo poo-show on the road. Crashing into $275 autism chariots before they can lift off should be fun though, if it runs.

Flatulance-a-lot
Jun 3, 2011


Has anyone said Shart Shitizen yet?

Mirificus
Oct 29, 2004

Kings need not raise their voices to be heard


I try to immerse myself as much as I can.



Matlock Birthmark
Sep 24, 2005

I wanted this to happen!!


Soiled Meat

That doesn't look practical or comfortable to play any sort of video game in...Ya, I don't see a problem, it's perfect for em.

toanoradian
May 30, 2011



This new Kamen Rider sure has even less budget than usual.

Sarsapariller
Aug 14, 2015

Occasional vampire queen



Okay we're back. I literally fell asleep waiting for the patcher to finish, but that just means we'll get some midnight testing in. My stated goal is to fly around to the back side of some of the moons in the game.

Attempt 2, Test 1: Well I get in on the first try, which is nice. In general things are going smooth and stably this time. I spawn a Gladius and fly back out to Kareah. I put it on cruise, accelerate to 1km/sec, and let it ride. Interestingly enough, the planet is not a circular backdrop as I had initially assumed- it's just posed very dramatically for when you warp into Kareah. It is in fact a really detailed sphere, and I spend several interesting minutes flying around to the dark side of the moon while trying not to think too hard of Pink Floyd related puns. Ultimately I find myself on the far side from Kareah, almost 270 km away, and decide to stop for a brief screen shot opportunity.


Given that I'm not exactly on a perfectly circular orbit from the other side, I'd say this moon is probably a little over 150km in radius which is honestly not bad at all. That puts it at about 1/10th the size of our actual moon, which I feel is a perfectly respectable planetary body for a video game. I resolve to go find another one and fly around it.

Test 2: Before I do that I figure I'll put the space thing to the test one more time and QT until I'm a few thousand KM from a station and then cruise the rest of the way in. I set a course for the nearest comm array, overshoot wildly (QT drive really doesn't like to disengage when you put it on manual), turn around to close the distance, and get a black screen crash. Darn.

Attempt 3: It appears that our old friend the unlocalized error has made a return- however, on the second attempt, I get back in so on the whole I'm not too bothered. It's kind of sad that one crash to desktop per login is considered quite good at this point but there you are. I wake up on the set of a JJ Abrams film- that is to say, there is a giant gently caress-off lens flare in my vision that shines through walls and floors. I've decided I don't want to A) be able to see out of my cockpit or B) have any weapons on the current flight so I go downstairs and spawn a Retaliator. Take off and promptly crash to desktop again. Hoo boy.

Attempt 4: Spawn retaliator, decide to go look at the moon near Covalex shipping. Now this moon is proper big. I spend several minutes in cruise and have not moved around the moon significantly. Thinking maybe it is a flat backdrop after all, I spool up QT and do some warping. This time my inaccuracy isn't so bad, and after a couple jumps I end up behind the moon about 7000km away from the station. I can't tell if it's because I'm on the dark side or if the genuinely did not bother to texture the backside of this moon, but it appears pretty blank- screenshot for posterity:


I'm not done with this one yet, I want to get in close and get a full measure of how big it actually is. Of course when I tab out to upload the image, the game crashes again. Alright, guess I will be transcribing from memory then.

Attempt 5: I note that they seem to have somehow hosed up the landing gear on the retaliator- the back gear meets the pad firmly, while the front gear is stretched out, barely touching the pad like a short kid sitting in a high chair. Take off, crash to desktop. Looks like another seven patches' bad luck for CIG.

Attempt 6: It's obvious that multi-crew ships are still not going to work, so I spawn a Gladius and manage to make it this time. QT travel is just a complete bitch to get right- half the time you will be 30k km from where you wanted to come out. Eventually I do get behind the planet. I was right, this one is drat big. Covalex is at least 4600 km away which puts this one at well over moon size and well on its way to half the size of Earth. Cool! There is a texture there, but this is some kind of ice world so it is much more subtle than the first moon.



Something about flying so close to the planet has bugged my ship though- it is jittering all over the place on the flight back to Cry-Astro to refuel, like it's still stuck in the planetary field. I land it on the pad and get out, then tab out to finish this post.

Mission Status: Surprisingly, complete and then some and after only a few attempts.

Final Thoughts: Fairly positive. Game's still crashing pretty regularly but most things are smoother than they were before and stability in general seems to be up. Exploring the far sides of the moons was very neat- it doesn't seem like they've built the game to be a series of small 10kmx10km scenes and I appreciate that. Whether I actually answered any of the mathematical questions- well, I probably didn't, it's easy enough to imagine that every time you enter/exit QT the game just refreshes your local grid. But it's seamless enough that I have no trouble getting immersed. What I do have a problem with, however, is the fact that QT is such a mess. It's not like supercruise at all- unless you are pointed at an indicated target on your hud, you are going to be lucky to get within ten thousand kilometers of where you want to go. That's going to make exploring a serious pain in the rear end. It's likely they haven't thought that far ahead, of course- they never seem to. I'm also pretty irritated that multicrew ships are still entirely crash prone to the point that you can't get the Retaliator off the pad two tries out of three. That's supposed to be the major tentpole of this demo and it doesn't work even slightly. Still, things continue to progress and the world's most expensive screenshot generator is showing signs of life, even now. I don't see it going to a live release any time soon though.

Sarsapariller fucked around with this message at 07:15 on Dec 5, 2015

ZenMaster
Jan 23, 2006

I Saved PC Gaming



MeLKoR posted:

Did he say "we're exploiting players within the Million Mile High Club" at 1:44? :psyduck:

Am I a moron if I missed the fact that this is parody because I don't know what these people sound like normally?

In fact he does. But it took me a while to get him to "say" it. (it's a parody)


/\/\/\Good write up, love those, also I watched SC on twitch a bit today and the dude kept falling through the floor of his room and the station over and over. Still some amazing bugs to be found.

ZenMaster fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Dec 5, 2015

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

Slava Ukrayini




Clapping Larry

So do all the people who have backed this get a credit entry?

In the QA section, of course.

Sarsapariller
Aug 14, 2015

Occasional vampire queen



ZenMaster posted:

/\/\/\Good write up, love those, also I watched SC on twitch a bit today and the dude kept falling through the floor of his room and the station over and over. Still some amazing bugs to be found.

I have not been able to spawn or fly a multicrew ship except for the one documented time above. I've tried seven or eight times, and every time it ejects me a million miles into space or I fall through the floor or I crash to desktop. It simultaneously amuses the hell out of me and annoys me to no end that the one major selling point of their demo is so consistently hosed up.

Eventually I got to the point where I just started spawning the P-52 merlin, taking it about 5km away from the station, then kicking it into cruise and ramming it into other people's multicrew ships like the world's biggest loving lawn dart. As far as I can tell it did minimal damage and usually I just died spectacularly, but gently caress it. If I can't have multicrew nobody can.

Justin Tyme
Feb 22, 2011




Sarsapariller posted:

Okay we're back. I literally fell asleep waiting for the patcher to finish, but that just means we'll get some midnight testing in. My stated goal is to fly around to the back side of some of the moons in the game.

Attempt 2, Test 1: Well I get in on the first try, which is nice. In general things are going smooth and stably this time. I spawn a Gladius and fly back out to Kareah. I put it on cruise, accelerate to 1km/sec, and let it ride. Interestingly enough, the planet is not a circular backdrop as I had initially assumed- it's just posed very dramatically for when you warp into Kareah. It is in fact a really detailed sphere, and I spend several interesting minutes flying around to the dark side of the moon while trying not to think too hard of Pink Floyd related puns. Ultimately I find myself on the far side from Kareah, almost 270 km away, and decide to stop for a brief screen shot opportunity.


Given that I'm not exactly on a perfectly circular orbit from the other side, I'd say this moon is probably a little over 150km in radius which is honestly not bad at all. That puts it at about 1/10th the size of our actual moon, which I feel is a perfectly respectable planetary body for a video game. I resolve to go find another one and fly around it.

Test 2: Before I do that I figure I'll put the space thing to the test one more time and QT until I'm a few thousand KM from a station and then cruise the rest of the way in. I set a course for the nearest comm array, overshoot wildly (QT drive really doesn't like to disengage when you put it on manual), turn around to close the distance, and get a black screen crash. Darn.

Attempt 3: It appears that our old friend the unlocalized error has made a return- however, on the second attempt, I get back in so on the whole I'm not too bothered. It's kind of sad that one crash to desktop per login is considered quite good at this point but there you are. I wake up on the set of a JJ Abrams film- that is to say, there is a giant gently caress-off lens flare in my vision that shines through walls and floors. I've decided I don't want to A) be able to see out of my cockpit or B) have any weapons on the current flight so I go downstairs and spawn a Retaliator. Take off and promptly crash to desktop again. Hoo boy.

Attempt 4: Spawn retaliator, decide to go look at the moon near Covalex shipping. Now this moon is proper big. I spend several minutes in cruise and have not moved around the moon significantly. Thinking maybe it is a flat backdrop after all, I spool up QT and do some warping. This time my inaccuracy isn't so bad, and after a couple jumps I end up behind the moon about 7000km away from the station. I can't tell if it's because I'm on the dark side or if the genuinely did not bother to texture the backside of this moon, but it appears pretty blank- screenshot for posterity:


I'm not done with this one yet, I want to get in close and get a full measure of how big it actually is. Of course when I tab out to upload the image, the game crashes again. Alright, guess I will be transcribing from memory then.

Attempt 5: I note that they seem to have somehow hosed up the landing gear on the retaliator- the back gear meets the pad firmly, while the front gear is stretched out, barely touching the pad like a short kid sitting in a high chair. Take off, crash to desktop. Looks like another seven patches' bad luck for CIG.

Attempt 6: It's obvious that multi-crew ships are still not going to work, so I spawn a Gladius and manage to make it this time. QT travel is just a complete bitch to get right- half the time you will be 30k km from where you wanted to come out. Eventually I do get behind the planet. I was right, this one is drat big. Covalex is at least 4600 km away which puts this one at well over moon size and well on its way to half the size of Earth. Cool! There is a texture there, but this is some kind of ice world so it is much more subtle than the first moon.



Something about flying so close to the planet has bugged my ship though- it is jittering all over the place on the flight back to Cry-Astro to refuel, like it's still stuck in the planetary field. I land it on the pad and get out, then tab out to finish this post.

Mission Status: Surprisingly, complete and then some and after only a few attempts.

Final Thoughts: Fairly positive. Game's still crashing pretty regularly but most things are smoother than they were before and stability in general seems to be up. Exploring the far sides of the moons was very neat- it doesn't seem like they've built the game to be a series of small 10kmx10km scenes and I appreciate that. Whether I actually answered any of the mathematical questions- well, I probably didn't, it's easy enough to imagine that every time you enter/exit QT the game just refreshes your local grid. But it's seamless enough that I have no trouble getting immersed. What I do have a problem with, however, is the fact that QT is such a mess. It's not like supercruise at all- unless you are pointed at an indicated target on your hud, you are going to be lucky to get within ten thousand kilometers of where you want to go. That's going to make exploring a serious pain in the rear end. It's likely they haven't thought that far ahead, of course- they never seem to. I'm also pretty irritated that multicrew ships are still entirely crash prone to the point that you can't get the Retaliator off the pad two tries out of three. That's supposed to be the major tentpole of this demo and it doesn't work even slightly. Still, things continue to progress and the world's most expensive screenshot generator is showing signs of life, even now. I don't see it going to a live release any time soon though.

Interesting write-up. You should try to fly behind/around the gas giant, and also see how far away from the entire system itself you can get and turn around to take a screenshot of everything looking tiny.

Sarsapariller
Aug 14, 2015

Occasional vampire queen



Justin Tyme posted:

Interesting write-up. You should try to fly behind/around the gas giant, and also see how far away from the entire system itself you can get and turn around to take a screenshot of everything looking tiny.

The gas giant's pretty samey but not hard to fly around. You can't actually go very far in QT before you hit the boundaries and die. The moons are vanishingly small in the grand scheme of things, and are basically just white dots when you get to more than 100k km away (or roughly half the distance between the spawn point, Port Ollisar, and any of the moons).

Sarsapariller
Aug 14, 2015

Occasional vampire queen



Justin Tyme posted:

Interesting write-up. You should try to fly behind/around the gas giant, and also see how far away from the entire system itself you can get and turn around to take a screenshot of everything looking tiny.

Here, just for you:



I managed to get around to the other side. That's the spawn point Olissar on the other side, 190k km away. I'd guesstimate Crusader's radius at 90k km, which actually makes it about 50% bigger than Jupiter. It's interesting how hard it is to estimate scale in space.


Edit: Oh hey they rolled it out to the first 200,000 backers because it's obviously in a stable enough state to do that! I'm going to stop making predictions about when they will or will not roll poo poo out- their release schedule is clearly not governed by any concerns about keeping the game presentable. Or any other normal human logic, as far as I can tell.

Sarsapariller fucked around with this message at 08:25 on Dec 5, 2015

Skellybones
May 31, 2011






Fun Shoe

It's weird how the screens in the corners are pointed straight forward. They really should be angled towards the pilot so they're pointed at them.

Tippis
Mar 21, 2008

It's yet another day in the wasteland.



Sarsapariller posted:

I managed to get around to the other side. That's the spawn point Olissar on the other side, 190k km away. I'd guesstimate Crusader's radius at 90k km, which actually makes it about 50% bigger than Jupiter. It's interesting how hard it is to estimate scale in space.

:spergin:

Please, please, please use Mm rather than “k km”.

Sarsapariller
Aug 14, 2015

Occasional vampire queen



Tippis posted:

:spergin:

Please, please, please use Mm rather than “k km”.

Your metric customs are strange and foreign to me but I will do my best.

Tippis
Mar 21, 2008

It's yet another day in the wasteland.



Sarsapariller posted:

Your metric customs are strange and foreign to me but I will do my best.

Thank you kind goon sir.

4 inch cut no femmes
May 31, 2011


I use au myself.

Tippis
Mar 21, 2008

It's yet another day in the wasteland.



Humphrey Vasel posted:

I use au myself.

I suppose that works too, but I'm not sure it would scale all that well with the utterly minute maps and zones SC uses.
Maybe if they used 64bit floating point precision… :D

Tippis fucked around with this message at 10:25 on Dec 5, 2015

Berious
Nov 13, 2005


Humphrey Vasel posted:

I use au myself.

Remember that mechwarrior game where they told your temperature in kelvin? I thought that was badass and futuristic.

Raticus79
Oct 21, 2015


Sarsapariller posted:

Edit: Oh hey they rolled it out to the first 200,000 backers because it's obviously in a stable enough state to do that! I'm going to stop making predictions about when they will or will not roll poo poo out- their release schedule is clearly not governed by any concerns about keeping the game presentable. Or any other normal human logic, as far as I can tell.

Driving hard for that Dec 16 livestream Ben mentioned, I'd say.

Client side crashes are really frequent (usually at the first beacon if you even make it there). Will need to wait for the next round of in-progress crash fixes they mentioned.

4 inch cut no femmes
May 31, 2011


Berious posted:

Remember that mechwarrior game where they told your temperature in kelvin? I thought that was badass and futuristic.

I played all the old mechwarrior games but can't remember anything about them :(

aside from using a rhino with arrow ivs and sniping mechs from out of nowhere.

Berious
Nov 13, 2005


Ramc posted:

A friend of mine just got this.



Computer knows best

it dont matter
Aug 29, 2008



Skellybones posted:

It's weird how the screens in the corners are pointed straight forward. They really should be angled towards the pilot so they're pointed at them.

The cockpit and HUDs are an abomination.

Look at this poo poo



There's a loving game in there somewhere but I can't quite see it for all the gaudy UI bullshit and vision obscuring struts.

Someone tell Croberts it's not the 1980s anymore and you don't need to make the visible play area tiny to compensate for weak hardware.

Iglocska
Nov 23, 2015


Sarsapariller posted:

Here, just for you:



I managed to get around to the other side. That's the spawn point Olissar on the other side, 190k km away. I'd guesstimate Crusader's radius at 90k km, which actually makes it about 50% bigger than Jupiter. It's interesting how hard it is to estimate scale in space.


Edit: Oh hey they rolled it out to the first 200,000 backers because it's obviously in a stable enough state to do that! I'm going to stop making predictions about when they will or will not roll poo poo out- their release schedule is clearly not governed by any concerns about keeping the game presentable. Or any other normal human logic, as far as I can tell.

I disagree, they rolled it out when it became stable.

With that here is my tale:

Dear Friends,

Journal entry 1:

It has finally happened. I have received my invite to the PTU and I am already giddy just thinking about what I will do first. Should I go and complete one of the EPIC storylines of lending 8 stations a hand? Should I explore the vast blackness of space? Orbit a planet and enjoy the view? Try to get onboard a multi-crew ship, hide and try to steal it? The possibilities are endless!

Attempt 1: I start Star Citizen and click on Universe. The game starts loading and it seems to take an unusually long time until... Crash to desktop.

Attempt 2: No worries, must be just bad luck, I bet I am that one sucker in 200k that experienced this, ah well, off we go again, launching Star Citizen. Loading into the game definitely seems to go faster this time until - Server full. Sadly the error message cannot be clicked away, so I just restart the game completely.

Attempt 3: I launch Star Citizen and enter the universe. Yay I am in. I try to follow players going to the landing pad in order to hide on a multi crew ship only to steal it when they EVA, I follow a guy to one of the "big" platforms only to see that he has a 315p... Ah well next time. Getting my own Constellation, I take off and make my way to a station. It is under attack by 3 pirates - from what I can tell flying Auroras. Should be no problem, I target the first one, unleash a volley that rips it to shreds right in front of my ship, in fact so close to it that I am unable to evade, but I figured that the remains of an aurora colliding with my fully shielded constellation should be fine - sadly the game engine disagrees and I crash to desktop.

Attempt 4: I launch StarCraft II...

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless


College Slice

Sarsapariller posted:

This is patch G. This is the 7th straight patch that has "Fixed several server-side crashes and performance problems." Assuming that "Several" is a generously low estimate of two per patch, that means there were at least fourteen loving server-side crashes and performance problems when they first kicked this out the door. And after all this it's still not stable! I'm picturing a code base where half of the functions were just comments like "//Uh... todo: give to the intern" and "//Implement this before somebody fires me"

...and that's just the bugs they mention. Us devs tend to mostly only mention forward facing issues which the end-user can understand as it pertains to the game and what they have experienced. My guess is that they have thousands of bugs they are working through.

And no, 2.0 - as I predicted - wasn't ready to roll at all. And my guess is that when they do release it publicly for Christmas, it won't be that much different from what's in the PTU. Only it will have less bugs. But it will be in the same mess that 1.3x kernel (which btw AC is still running as I type this) is currently in. And it appears as if they've actually halted work on that 1.x kernel already.

Iglocska
Nov 23, 2015


D_Smart posted:

...and that's just the bugs they mention. Us devs tend to mostly only mention forward facing issues which the end-user can understand as it pertains to the game and what they have experienced. My guess is that they have thousands of bugs they are working through.

And no, 2.0 - as I predicted - wasn't ready to roll at all. And my guess is that when they do release it publicly for Christmas, it won't be that much different from what's in the PTU. Only it will have less bugs. But it will be in the same mess that 1.3x kernel (which btw AC is still running as I type this) is currently in. And it appears as if they've actually halted work on that 1.x kernel already.

It's a good thing they halted work on it, 2.0 is obviously better, but they have a long way to go when it comes to bug fixes.

Berious
Nov 13, 2005


alphabettitouretti posted:

The cockpit and HUDs are an abomination.

Look at this poo poo



There's a loving game in there somewhere but I can't quite see it for all the gaudy UI bullshit and vision obscuring struts.

Someone tell Croberts it's not the 1980s anymore and you don't need to make the visible play area tiny to compensate for weak hardware.

You can sort of tell the ww2 bomber aesthetic they're trying to achieve but its just so ugly and soulless. Make a few of the struts curved and it wouldn't look hideous. I bet the artist wanted to but Chris hates curves or something

Enchanted Hat
Aug 18, 2013

Defeated in Diplomacy under suspicious circumstances


Berious posted:

You can sort of tell the ww2 bomber aesthetic they're trying to achieve but its just so ugly and soulless. Make a few of the struts curved and it wouldn't look hideous. I bet the artist wanted to but Chris hates curves or something

um you do know that in the SC future after we discovered alien species, ergonomics and designing according to human sensibilities is considered RACIST, right?

just thought i'd let you know you sapien-normative piece of poo poo

i just can't even right now

Sillybones
Aug 10, 2013

go away,
spooky skeleton,
go away


Berious posted:

You can sort of tell the ww2 bomber aesthetic they're trying to achieve but its just so ugly and soulless. Make a few of the struts curved and it wouldn't look hideous. I bet the artist wanted to but Chris hates curves or something

With pillars and poo poo in real life you can look past them since you aren't focusing on them. In a 2D presentation it is pretty lame rear end stuff.

Chalks
Sep 30, 2009



alphabettitouretti posted:

The cockpit and HUDs are an abomination.

Look at this poo poo



There's a loving game in there somewhere but I can't quite see it for all the gaudy UI bullshit and vision obscuring struts.

Someone tell Croberts it's not the 1980s anymore and you don't need to make the visible play area tiny to compensate for weak hardware.

Is this cockpit unusual in looking so hideous or are they all like this?

Iglocska
Nov 23, 2015


Chalks posted:

Is this cockpit unusual in looking so hideous or are they all like this?

It's probably the worst cockpit so far. To be honest, I don't think it's a problem, some ships have fantastic visibility (like the m50 or the mustang) and I think it adds an extra layer of balance to the ships beyond the usual stats. Your ship might look great on paper, but it's crap if you can't see poo poo.

TTerrible
Jul 15, 2005


The alien fighter/bomber thing looked awful to me too, I can't remember what its called. Though.

The Vandull Chargeback Intimidator Hull

Wrecked Angle
May 12, 2012

"JURASSIC PARK!"


A friend of mine has been banging on about joining Star Citizen so I'm on the website looking at the different ships. I like the look of the Redeemer Gunship but can't find anywhere that tells me how much that $318.oo costs in real world money.

Do you buy Star Citizen dollars in packs? If so, can someone tell me how much say, 1000 Star Citizen dollars costs (or however many you can buy at a time). Thanks.

e. In GBP if possible

Wrecked Angle fucked around with this message at 12:38 on Dec 5, 2015

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Beer4TheBeerGod
Aug 23, 2004


Exciting Lemon

Iglocska posted:

It's probably the worst cockpit so far. To be honest, I don't think it's a problem, some ships have fantastic visibility (like the m50 or the mustang) and I think it adds an extra layer of balance to the ships beyond the usual stats. Your ship might look great on paper, but it's crap if you can't see poo poo.

Personally I think visibility as a balance mechanism is a terrible idea, especially in a game about visual fidelity.

  • Locked thread