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A Neurotic Jew
Feb 17, 2012

by exmarx


CasualMaleXL posted:

COOL. Only just noticed after skipping past a bunch of patch notes looking posts. Nothing makes your space sim look better than a thread mocking a bad space sim project, I guess? Either way it feels more off topic than the recipes.

yea it's pretty weird when someone asks him about the game and then he responds to that person.

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no_recall
Aug 17, 2015



Lipstick Apathy

Sarsapariller posted:


Beyond that it seems like the greatest difference is that Star Citizen is trying to represent the player's first-person perspective at all times. Other space sims have let you go to first-person so

Elite dangerous does first person 100% of the time. Just that your rear end is glued to the seat for now. SC has a 3rd person camera which you can control your craft. Elite has a crap drone camera which can cause deaths cause you can't control your ship due to balancing reasons.

Just calling you out on this one. The rest of your posts own.

Decrepus
May 21, 2008

In the end, his dominion did not touch a single poster.


What's truly realistic about Star Citizen is that real life is also 1st person. Makes you think.

EminusSleepus
Sep 28, 2015



Wuxi posted:

No, thats console gaming. Or was it Ubisoft? Any big publisher? Women? Hygene? Honestly I have no loving clue, what do those people think PC gaming needs to be saved from? :shrug:

We have Gaben, GoG and among others and that is the Justice Avengers League of pc gaming

no_recall
Aug 17, 2015



Lipstick Apathy

Decrepus posted:

What's truly realistic about Star Citizen is that real life is also 1st person. Makes you think.

It will be complete once grabby hands is implemented.

Sarsapariller
Aug 14, 2015

Occasional vampire queen



no_recall posted:

Elite dangerous does first person 100% of the time. Just that your rear end is glued to the seat for now. SC has a 3rd person camera which you can control your craft. Elite has a crap drone camera which can cause deaths cause you can't control your ship due to balancing reasons.

Just calling you out on this one. The rest of your posts own.

I think that's a good point. Elite doesn't have to worry about localized physics grids because you can't get out of the seat, but it does first-person really well and it lends a huge amount of depth and realism to the universe. It's clear that they made a lot of really clever design decisions like the supercruise mode being essentially a separate map that the player loads into- they disguise that kind of stuff in a way that makes the game immersive without sacrificing scope. Star Citizen tries to just brute force it and because of that it's unable to compartmentalize, and I think it suffers for it enormously.

I actually really like almost all of Elite's choices in regards to UI and controls and even combat- it is by far my favorite game to play with the Oculus.

EminusSleepus
Sep 28, 2015



Decrepus posted:

What's truly realistic about Star Citizen is that real life is also 1st person. Makes you think.

Not when you are mastubating and that is the definition of SC

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless


College Slice

Sarsapariller posted:

You know, I watched this- and it's interesting how the people who bag on you the most tend to go after your games, when they are surprisingly similar to Star Citizen in their ambition and scope. From the video, it seems like with all the stability concerns out of the way, the UI is the major thing holding it back. It feels kind of dwarf fortressy- like there's a whole world of stuff being simulated under the hood, but the game doesn't really have a great method of displaying it to the player (or to give them a way to affect it meaningfully). I feel like if you took an engine like this, narrowed down the range of information presented to something that the player could meaningfully understand and base decisions on, and gave it a bit of a visual pass, it'd be quite popular.

Beyond that it seems like the greatest difference is that Star Citizen is trying to represent the player's first-person perspective at all times. Other space sims have let you go to first-person some of the time, but SC is the first one (that I know of) that uses it exclusively at all times. I'm not saying this is a good or a bad thing, but I suspect it is what makes a lot of the technical challenges significantly worse. At the same time it also makes the sense of scale much more apparent when doing something like running around on a ship or station. It's an interesting design choice.

Yeah, the UI in my games have always been a bit of an issue. But once you accept the fact that it's different, it gets easier with time.

The biggest issue is that the game has so many options that there is no other way to slim down the UI, while still presenting relevant info to the player. But I am going to overhaul the UI in the UCCE 3.0 DLC because I'm going to convert it to use Flash (via Iggy, which I use in LOD) and that will give more options for visual fidelity, slimming it down etc.

And yes, Star Citizen isn't doing anything revolutionary in terms of tech. It's just mostly fps and a high visual fidelity (which is going to be a serious problem if they ever finish the game and with all features as promised). But then again, I'm doing the same fps type thing in LOD, but without the in-your-face interactive bullshit (because realism) that doesn't add anything to the gameplay. At the end of the day, smoke and mirrors tend to wear off quickly, leaving you wondering where the hell the game is.

As to sense of scale, you do realize that LOD has massive stations - and an entire multi-deck carrier right? True fact: that carrier can be flown. I just don't allow it in LOD.

Sarsapariller
Aug 14, 2015

Occasional vampire queen



I keep finding myself talking about SC as though I actually was a defender, which is not in any way the case, so to balance that out here's another video of poo poo going wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6G97IYW_s4


D_Smart posted:

As to sense of scale, you do realize that LOD has massive stations - and an entire multi-deck carrier right? True fact: that carrier can be flown. I just don't allow it in LOD.

I haven't really paid attention to LOD- you should make a thread for it. I was under the impression that it was more of a ground-based planetside 2 game, but if there's spaceships and space combat I will give it a shot.

Broccoli Cat
Mar 8, 2013

"so, am I right in understanding that you're a bigot or aficionado of racist humor?




STAR CITIZEN is for WHITES ONLY!




:lesnick:


Sarsapariller posted:




I haven't really paid attention to LOD- you should make a thread for it. I was under the impression that it was more of a ground-based planetside 2 game, but if there's spaceships and space combat I will give it a shot.



It's probably the greatest space game ever made AND there's a thriving brony community, to boot.

Crash74
May 11, 2009


Octopode it's been like 20 page's , come back and explain how this is the best game ever some more :colbert:.

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless


College Slice

Omi-Polari posted:

Hmm. It might be a bug. Hitting F9 and going into 3rd person and *then* jumping into hyperspace takes me out of 3rd person and back into 1st (but no HUD, though I can toggle it back with F1), and hitting F9 while in hyperspace also takes me to a view that's similar to hitting F3 (it's at a slightly different angle, but basically the same view -- maybe my ship is just invisible?). However, F10 seems to work fine for radar targets in hyperspace.

In your video, it looks like you're watching your ship as it blasts through the system at hyperspeed. That's cool as hell.

I have the DLC.

Yeah, I like 90s games and never played any of yours back in the day, and this thread got me interested. It really is a huge, underrated game for its time. The look and the UI will turn people off but whatever. I've just been tinkering around with it in roam mode, learning systems, etc. And ... it's hard. But that's the point. Enemy boarding parties will sabotage your ship, then steal a shuttlecraft and make a getaway. You'll win a battle only to come out of it shot to hell and drifting while on fire.

Edit:

Ah, it kinda looks like this. I skipped ahead to when he goes into hyperspace. But I'll try to upload a video of my own later and will post it here. (Also Lazy Chan's videos are good tutorials for the basics.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6utp9H55TA&t=494s

It's not a bug. Those are all valid camera views but with different camera types. In fact, F9 and F10 have multiple views which you can cycle through while pressing the keys. See p5 of the game keys.

When you are in hyperspace, the ship is invisible. The parts (around 3:30 and beyond) where I was looking around at the ship, and it was visible, that's real space; though moving very - very - fast because I had my finger on the thrust.

Also, ships that are in hyperspace have a Blue box visible in the HUD or in Tacops. That's why when you click on them, there is nothing to see.

And yeah, intruders are a pest. Some (depending on AI) will just sabotage poo poo and leave. Others will steal poo poo and either transport out back to their ship (if still around) or steal one of your fighters or shuttles and bugger off. The assholes who steal all your valuable cargo, are the worst because they come heavily armed and can take out all your marines.

You can go to PERSCAN and enjoy the fun as they play hide and seek with your marines through the entire ship. That's a completely separate AI tech running the crew simulation. Which is why the crew can get tired, go off-station, go eat, get rested etc. It's all simulated in real-time and runs completely independently of what is going on in the outside world or other parts of the ship. That's why in the video, I sent a team to the transporter, then beamed them to the planet surface. That's how you go on away missions. And if you beam a team of marines into the middle of hostile territory, you can leave them there to battle it out, while you observe from Tacops or just bugger off and go do something else. The game won't stop because the *entire* galaxy (space and planets) runs in real-time. No instancing. No sharding. No bullshit.

Once I built that engine, all I did was build the games (Battlecruiser which morphed into Universal Combat once I added fps and a bunch of other crap) on top of it. Which is the reason why I needed to build a new engine for LOD because this legacy engine just didn't have the graphics prowess for that game and it would have taken way too much time to retool that (because of the planets) and I would lose a lot of functionality that just works.

So I figured that the best way to preserve the old gal (BC/UC), was to give it a graphics boost (engine, redo ALL the assets, fx etc), while retaining all that ground-breaking tech. That's why no new features are promised in that DLC.

Though one thing I always wanted to do, was add the 3D cockpits (from All Aspect Warfare / Angle Of Attack) to all the crafts. That would allow me to also have 3D bridges for all the capital (carrier, cruiser, transport) ships in the game. If you have seen Into The Stars, then you already have an idea what I am planning. But better. The original BC3K (see below) had that, but it was just a 2D image. If I do it in 3D, you will be able to see bridge personnel go on and off the bridge as they go to other parts of the ship. I'm not going to model the entire ship (like the three deck Starguard carrier in LOD) because that's an exceptional amount of work and will cost over $600K to build all 28 capital ships since each one costs approx $20-$25K to build inside/out like the Starguard in LOD.

mormonpartyboat
Jan 14, 2015

by Reene


hello derek do you have a favorite episode of mythbusters?

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless


College Slice

Sarsapariller posted:

Star Citizen tries to just brute force it and because of that it's unable to compartmentalize, and I think it suffers for it enormously.

That and the fact that, well, they lack the experience to build the type of game that does this. And that's only because, well, they've never build it before. What they're attempting - because of Chris - is the equivalent of asking a helicopter pilot to go fly an aircraft. Sure it all seems familiar, but both take completely different disciplines to master.

That's the problem they have. And they're on a massive learning curve. Which is why my statements made in July, remain as-is. They can't build the game Chris wants them to build and which he promised. It will take a lot of time (due to learning curve) since they neither have the talent, nor the tech. Both of which costs money.

ps: I've built all that poo poo and localized physics inside a dynamic body was never an issue for me because I built my engines from the ground up to do precisely what I wanted. I didn't have to wrangle some third-party engine to do something it clearly wasn't designed for. Which is why also Frontier build their own engine. A game of this scope and complexity requires a bespoke engine. There is no getting around that. Now they're building that bespoke engine on top of an unwieldy middleware. They will fail.

BrutalistMcDonalds
Oct 4, 2012




Lipstick Apathy

D_Smart posted:

It's not a bug. Those are all valid camera views but with different camera types. In fact, F9 and F10 have multiple views which you can cycle through while pressing the keys. See p5 of the game keys.

When you are in hyperspace, the ship is invisible. The parts (around 3:30 and beyond) where I was looking around at the ship, and it was visible, that's real space; though moving very - very - fast because I had my finger on the thrust.
Got it. Well then, you've given me a mission during my next session: Learn out how to increase my thrust profile...

D_Smart posted:

So I figured that the best way to preserve the old gal (BC/UC), was to give it a graphics boost (engine, redo ALL the assets, fx etc), while retaining all that ground-breaking tech. That's why no new features are promised in that DLC.

Though one thing I always wanted to do, was add the 3D cockpits (from All Aspect Warfare / Angle Of Attack) to all the crafts. That would allow me to also have 3D bridges for all the capital (carrier, cruiser, transport) ships in the game. If you have seen Into The Stars, then you already have an idea what I am planning. But better. The original BC3K (see below) had that, but it was just a 2D image. If I do it in 3D, you will be able to see bridge personnel go on and off the bridge as they go to other parts of the ship. I'm not going to model the entire ship (like the three deck Starguard carrier in LOD) because that's an exceptional amount of work and will cost over $600K to build all 28 capital ships since each one costs approx $20-$25K to build inside/out like the Starguard in LOD.


Nice preview. Yeah, UC is sorta something I play around with, but once this is out I wanna dive into actually marauding through Gammulan territory and the like. I'm going to die, aren't I?

MeLKoR
Dec 23, 2004

by FactsAreUseless


https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/301708/2-0-0h-publish-to-ptu

quote:

In the process of resolving performance issues and introducing other client fixes, a few new crashes have been introduced. We are aware of and working to resolve these. This is part of the overall stabilizing process, and we appreciate all of your assistance!

Say it ain't so, Joe! :qq:

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless


College Slice

Sarsapariller posted:

I keep finding myself talking about SC as though I actually was a defender, which is not in any way the case, so to balance that out here's another video of poo poo going wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6G97IYW_s4


I haven't really paid attention to LOD- you should make a thread for it. I was under the impression that it was more of a ground-based planetside 2 game, but if there's spaceships and space combat I will give it a shot.

Good idea. I will do that over the weekend. LOD has all over above and then some. It's got space and planetary combat. You should read up on it. http://lodmmo.com

ps: Aircraft unlocks are coming in the next major update due out this month

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless


College Slice

mormonpartyboat posted:

hello derek do you have a favorite episode of mythbusters?

Hiya!

Sorry no. Because I don't watch that show :(

SquirrelGrip
Jul 4, 2012


I'm going to play the d smart game on my xbox one

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless


College Slice

Omi-Polari posted:

Got it. Well then, you've given me a mission during my next session: Learn out how to increase my thrust profile...

You can use the cheat keys to fully unlock it. Just add /opt_cheats_on to the executable command line. See item #6 in .\docs\game_cheats.pdf

Omi-Polari posted:

Nice preview. Yeah, UC is sorta something I play around with, but once this is out I wanna dive into actually marauding through Gammulan territory and the like. I'm going to die, aren't I?

Yes. Horribly.

If you ever go up against a Gammulan Stormcarrier, you probably won't survive. And if the NPC commander has a high AI, it's going to be cloaked the whole time. If you hear "there's something out there" coming from your crew (with high enough AI), it's a cloaked ship. Definitely Gammulan if you're in their territory. You should get the hell out of there.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Chocobo posted:

A month.

There's seems to be one of 4 problems with their refund support response time.

1. The entire support team is one guy in a basement somewhere who works part time.
2. There's a 10 million tickets to get through.
3. Each ticket takes a minimum of a week to complete and only 1 ticket can be open at any one time.
4. They're trying to stall it out as much as possible because they can't afford to lose the money.

Any one of those things should set off alarm bells in peoples heads that either the company is being incredibly poorly managed, or they've pissed away $100m.

We're talking about support tickets for a game that's not released and only has ~1 million donators/customers, people would be losing their jobs over repose times like that in any other customer support team.

D_Smart
May 11, 2010

by FactsAreUseless


College Slice

SquirrelGrip posted:

I'm going to play the d smart game on my xbox one

Which one? Line Of Defense Tactics? It's not out on XB1 until next week, Dec 11th.

Here is the XB1 trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5p7LzdFlkZc

Breetai
Nov 6, 2005

🥄Mah spoon is too big!🍌

D_Smart posted:

Good idea. I will do that over the weekend. LOD has all over above and then some. It's got space and planetary combat. You should read up on it. http://lodmmo.com


If you start up a development thread, listen to and implement goon advice, and the result is a game that is not only technically impressive but accessible, well-received and fun to play, I may very well literally die laughing. Or of existential horror at the fact that I've definitely stumbled across some sort of mirror-universe.

Gerbil_Pen
Apr 6, 2014



Lipstick Apathy

Rudager posted:

There's seems to be one of 4 problems with their refund support response time.

1. The entire support team is one guy in a basement somewhere who works part time.
2. There's a 10 million tickets to get through.
3. Each ticket takes a minimum of a week to complete and only 1 ticket can be open at any one time.
4. They're trying to stall it out as much as possible because they can't afford to lose the money.

Any one of those things should set off alarm bells in peoples heads that either the company is being incredibly poorly managed, or they've pissed away $100m.

We're talking about support tickets for a game that's not released and only has ~1 million donators/customers, people would be losing their jobs over repose times like that in any other customer support team.

I don't want to sound like I'm defending anyone here, but here's thefew tickets I've had with Heroes and Generals:

Open: Oct 5, 2015
Closed: Nov 21, 2015

Open: March 21, 2015
Close: September 2, 2015

Open: Oct 8, 2014
Close: Oct 27, 2014

Open: Sept 15, 2014
Close: October 17, 2014

And for CIG:

Open: Dec 13 2013
Close: Dec 18, 2013

Open: Feb 28 2014
Close: Feb 28, 2014

Open: Oct 11, 2014
Close: Oct 19, 2014

Open: March 25, 2015
Close: March 31, 2015

Open: Oct 1, 2015
Close: Oct 8, 2015 <--- partial refund

Yeah, so I don't know what you are talking about.

E: don't mean to be an rear end, all I'm saying is that poo poo CS is not solely owned by CIG. They do better than some actual games I play.

Gerbil_Pen fucked around with this message at 02:03 on Dec 6, 2015

bird with big dick
Oct 21, 2015




mormonpartyboat posted:

hello derek do you have a favorite episode of mythbusters?

Everyone's favorite episode of mythbusters is airplane on a treadmill.

A Neurotic Jew
Feb 17, 2012

by exmarx



new bugs? more like fresh content. croberts has done it again.

Paramemetic
Sep 29, 2003







Fallen Rib

Chin posted:

Multiplayer aside is it really technologically more difficult to have a player fly a space ship and then get out and paaarp around in zero G than it is to have a player drive a car and then get out and run around a city? You know like GTA3 did in 2001? EVA seems to be the big thing when it comes to people claiming that SC is some impressive leap forward in game design but I don't understand why that is.

I don't even see how this glitchy mess shows promise or represents a solid foundation on which a good game can be built. The difficulty in simulating a universe should not be in wrangling your mutant FPS engine to do basic space game things without crashing, and yet that's where CIG is after four years.

Space is bigger, and you have to render a lot further, because the objects are bigger and visible from further.

Mirificus
Oct 29, 2004

Kings need not raise their voices to be heard




https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3vlqn0/meta_discussion_on_toxic_community_figures/

Decrepus
May 21, 2008

In the end, his dominion did not touch a single poster.



Oh my god. They think people who join the game are going to look up to them. :laffo:

phosdex
Dec 16, 2005




I think that kingkongor guy got a ton of notoriety for streaming d3 shortly after it released and some dummy lent him a really well-rolled item and kingkongor then just kept it and sold it on the then real-money auction house or something.

eonwe
Aug 11, 2008



Lipstick Apathy

How do we deal with toxic community figures other than mindessly downvoting them on reddit other than ignoring them? Help reddit!!!!??

Tijuana Bibliophile
Dec 30, 2008



Scratchmo


Derek, if you could, would you take over development of star citizen

It would be the objectively funniest thing in the universe if you did

Crash74
May 11, 2009


Eonwe posted:

How do we deal with toxic community figures other than mindessly downvoting them on reddit other than ignoring them? Help reddit!!!!??

get hosed karl!

Sarsapariller
Aug 14, 2015

Occasional vampire queen



Hey- does anyone have a good free video editing suite they can recommend? I want to make a thing.

Crash74
May 11, 2009


ms paint is good

Tokamak
Dec 22, 2004



Chin posted:

Multiplayer aside is it really technologically more difficult to have a player fly a space ship and then get out and paaarp around in zero G than it is to have a player drive a car and then get out and run around a city? You know like GTA3 did in 2001? EVA seems to be the big thing when it comes to people claiming that SC is some impressive leap forward in game design but I don't understand why that is.

It really depends on the game engine, and what you are setting out to accomplish. IIRC cryengine (like most FPS engines) operate by having a terrain map with a bunch of 'simple' objects sitting on top of it. While the rocks, floors, etc. have collision detection on them, your character is actually moving relative to the underlying terrain. So while you might be standing on top of a building, the map's gravity is trying to pull you back to the terrain. The only thing stopping you from being pulled through the building is an invisible barrier. You can see this sort of thing happen in a lot of Star Citizen videos.

Generally in games, vehicles are objects that sit on top of the terrain. They aren't too different from an exploding barrel, in that you can pick up, and push over. There is no terrain inside a barrel or a car. Vehicles just have more elaborate sets of animations (your character getting in and out, affixing the player model inside the car model), and special behaviours (camera repositioned, player movement replaced with car movement).

This is how Arena Commander works - your vehicle is an object (far off the ground) moving relative to an invisible terrain map with zero gravity. It is the reason why they could release it a couple of months after the hanger release. It is just a regular map with a couple of unusual modifications, and starts you inside a vehicle with spaceship style handling. The spaceships work in a similar way to how the buggies work on planet-side.

In Star Citizen 2.0 there is a terrain map inside the vehicle. There are also terrain maps inside other vehicles, and on stations (and presumably on planets). The problem is that in Cryengine, there is only one terrain map, and the co-ordinate system is relative to terrain map. How do you have your terrain map and your opponents terrain maps move discontinuously from one another? The game engine just does not recognise and understand the problem, it fundamentally is not programmed to. You can imagine the millions of problems this creates, why they spent so long hacking a solution, and why Derek says that you need to build a custom engine for these sort of games.

In GTA a vehicle is an object in the game world. In Star Citizen a vehicle is a game world, in a shared space full of game worlds, and all of these game worlds move, have physics, and behaviours that are independent from one another. There are worlds inside objects inside an even bigger world

Tokamak fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Dec 6, 2015

Chin
Dec 12, 2005

GET LOST 2013
-RALPH


Tokamak posted:

:words:

In GTA a vehicle is an object in the game world. In Star Citizen a vehicle is a game world, in a shared space full of game worlds, and all of these game worlds move, have physics, and behaviours that are independent from one another. There are worlds inside objects inside an even bigger world
Interesting, thanks. So for the single seat ships it isn't much different. Just an object in the game world.

In a crewed vehicle combat game like Guns of Icarus are all of the separate airships with crews running around on them also technically game worlds within a larger game world? Or is there something specific to having localized physics on ships that roll and pitch? Videos don't seem to indicate that SC is simulating the effects of momentum and G forces on people walking within the ship, they're just in their own little static FPS world.

A Neurotic Jew
Feb 17, 2012

by exmarx


Tokamak posted:

an awesome post

thanks, these breakdowns are pretty helpful for me. In some ways it helps me recognize how impressive Alpha 2.0 is, in the sense that the engineers managed to make something that even resembles a rudimentary work-around to what seems like an impossible problem.

OWLS!
Sep 17, 2009

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN


Chin posted:

Interesting, thanks. So for the single seat ships it isn't much different. Just an object in the game world.

In a crewed vehicle combat game like Guns of Icarus are all of the separate airships with crews running around on them also technically game worlds within a larger game world?

The latter, from what I understand. Technically in GOI, the ship you are on is the game world, and the enemy ships are presented (to you) as objects which kind of shows in the limitations - you can't, for instance, snipe enemy players, you can't even see them moving around on the enemy ships.

Real game developers, please correct me here

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Dusty Lens
Jul 1, 2015

All Glory unto the Stimpire. Give up your arms and legs and embrace the beautiful agony of electricity that doubles in pain every second.



OWLS! posted:

The latter, from what I understand. Technically in GOI, the ship you are on is the game world, and the enemy ships are presented (to you) as objects which kind of shows in the limitations - you can't, for instance, snipe enemy players, you can't even see them moving around on the enemy ships.

Real game developers, please correct me here

In GoI you can see players running around on other ships. However you are correct in that you can't interact with them/board other ships or anything along those lines. You're stuck shooting at the ship until it pops.

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