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Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


Roland Jones posted:

You know, I just realized something. If non-Beasts happened to learn about the weird effect Beasts have to force you to like them, they would probably be livid. Like, I can easily imagine werewolves who are aware of that killing anyone they're interacting with who they learn is a Beast on principle, and I imagine that vampires and mages wouldn't be particularly happy about it either, among the others. Hell, it even applies to demons apparently, and they probably have the most legitimate reasons to find anything like that a major threat.

My distaste for it as a mechanic aside, Thicker Than Water is basically an in-game motivation for any non-Beast aware of it to want to have as little to do with any Beast they encounter, or possibly kill them outright. Which is presumably the opposite of what it's intended to achieve.

It specifically does not apply to Demons.

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Ratoslov
Feb 15, 2012

Now prepare yourselves! You're the guests of honor at the Greatest Kung Fu Cannibal BBQ Ever!



Roland Jones posted:

My distaste for it as a mechanic aside, Thicker Than Water is basically an in-game motivation for any non-Beast aware of it to want to have as little to do with any Beast they encounter, or possibly kill them outright. Which is presumably the opposite of what it's intended to achieve.

Yes, we really were stretching for reasons for any non-Beast to want to kill any Beast they meet. That was certainly something we were lacking for.

Count Chocula
Dec 25, 2011

WE HAVE TO CONTROL OUR ENVIRONMENT
IF YOU SEE ME POSTING OUTSIDE OF THE AUSPOL THREAD PLEASE TELL ME THAT I'M MISSED AND TO START POSTING AGAIN


quote:

It is a machine. It does not care for the well being of humans. Even if it understood things like ethics or morality they donít factor into itís decision making. It seems to prefer projects that can be executed without people noticing, but not because it doesnít want people to find out, or because itís afraid of what will happen. It acts this way simply because that is itís nature. To it people are tools or resources, useful only inasmuch as they can provide some function it can utilize. It may hurt and kill people but it doesnít gain anything resembling an emotional response from this. Thereís no empathy for their plight, or even sadistic joy at their suffering. Their pain or death is only a means to an end, nothing more, nothing less.

Capitalism.txt

This is an awesome game about fighting the Man. Demon and Beast are like the Goofus and Gallant of the CoD.

Roland Jones
Aug 18, 2011

by Nyc_Tattoo


Kurieg posted:

It specifically does not apply to Demons.

Oh, right, I forgot the stuff under "kinship" and just read the "any supernatural creature" part (and remembered my possibly-mistaken-then-too reaction to it back in the KS release). Whoops. In my defense, would you be surprised if they had stuff that still affected demons like everything else despite the whole "not kin" thing? Because I wouldn't.

Ratoslov posted:

Yes, we really were stretching for reasons for any non-Beast to want to kill any Beast they meet. That was certainly something we were lacking for.

Well the game (and even some of the other games' books apparently) tries to provide reasons why that wouldn't be the case, but they've really designed something that anyone knowledgeable about it should want absolutely nothing to do with just by its very nature. I mean, imagine how the other splats would take the knowledge that these things make you positively disposed towards them by default. Even the ones that aren't ridiculously paranoid and who have had extensive good interactions with a Beast would probably start wondering if all those interactions seemed good because of that power. Its very existence is anathema to the idea of them being the unifying crossover splat, the exact opposite of what it's intended to accomplish, if anyone in-character actually learns of it. It's just so bad on every level.

Count Chocula
Dec 25, 2011

WE HAVE TO CONTROL OUR ENVIRONMENT
IF YOU SEE ME POSTING OUTSIDE OF THE AUSPOL THREAD PLEASE TELL ME THAT I'M MISSED AND TO START POSTING AGAIN


quote:

Magda chooses the Hunger for Punishment for Mrs. Winters, letting her seep into the dreams of those who confide in her, berating them for their failings and filling them with the terror of their secrets being discovered. While Mrs. Winters wonít outwardly judge those who confide in her, she stalks them in the Primordial Dream, never letting them rest comfortably while they try to hide their illicit affairs, abuses, and other guilty pleasures. If they come clean, though, tell the truth and clear the air or otherwise make amends and cease their bad behavior, she leaves them alone. Fairís fair.

This is kinda cool, since it's Mary Worth, the Comics Curmudgeon version where she's a demonic force of evil.

Hostile V
May 30, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.





LIVING IN AMERICA


Welp. I have nothing to say to this besides "I'm pretty sure this was a cover to a Billy Ray Cyrus album".

Forgive me if I donít dance and do a split. America is fascist dictatorship under control of martial law. The introduction for this section says nothing new except for a throwaway reference to Bob Marley that also says heís a Delta. So letís all put the book down and ignore this review and imagine what super-powered Bob Marley would be like. I think his hero name would be Jamminí Mon.

Atlanta: Hotlanta is a nuclear crater. The only thing left standing is the remains of the suburbs and the outskirts of the city. Even most of the Deltas made by the blast are dead because yeah your powers made you survive the blast but youíve still been fatally irradiated. You canít get within 20 miles of Atlanta due to lingering radiation. There are also vampires and gently caress those guys. If you want to buy land in Atlanta, you can thanks to the Radioactive Homestead Act of 1989 giving massive discounts to people who actually live there. Not too many people live there besides the vampires.


Foom!

Boston: The mass of people leaving NYC ended up going to Boston so now itís overcrowded but booming economically. MIT has opened CPR, the College of Paratechnological Research, for Deltas and Gadgeteers who are interested in technology. Just ignore the fact that gadgets canít be replicated or mass produced and that Gadgeteers are a terrible broken class. On the upside, R&D is good. On the downside, the government gets first dibs on anything that comes out of the labs because any Deltas working there are working for JFK.


"What the gently caress am I building."

Crescent City: Itís on the list, Iím just including it.

Dallas: Dallas is a city forever associated with everything going to hell. Texas in general gets looked down on by the rest of the USA and if youíre actually old enough to have maybe participated in the Dallas attack, USA as a whole dislikes you and thinks youíre involved in a conspiracy. So naturally Texas is itching to secede. A group of independence-interested Defiants called the Texas Dangers are hassling the state government and theyíre trying to get Delta rights if Texas ever does become its own country.


"Now that I have your attention thanks to my rad wheelies, congressman, can I count on your vote for secession?" "...do a front-wheelie donut and we'll talk."

Detroit: Still hosed. Lots of gang violence, human or Delta, with the gang The Warlords being the biggest in Detroit. Their leader, Juwan Webber, is a black Delta with natural armor thatís been protecting him from multiple assassination attempts. Webber is aligned with Defiance and heís in a bad position: if he is actually killed Detroit will fall into chaos, if he takes over Detroit then the government will roll in Delta Prime. Worst case scenario is that the violence of Detroit spills over into Ohio and the other states.

Denver: Dangerous loving place. The mayor, Ross Higgins, proudly claims that the city is free of Defiance by harboring a lot of Primers and turning the school system into a machine for Delta detection. Theyíve apparently bred dogs that can smell Deltas. Captured members of Defiance are inevitably given a public execution after a show trial, so Defiance still exists but everyone wears a mask and disguise.

Los Angeles: The gangs Los Reyes and Everybody Killers are fighting over South Central using heavy weapons and Delta powers. The more damage they call, the more they risk Delta Prime hitting LA like a pound of steel. But who gives a gently caress about that, the majority of this segment is about Brian Selvin, a talent agent who gets Hollywood to cast Deltas as stunt doubles using their powers for practical effects. And I will leave it at that.


God imagine a world where Steven Seagal ends up becoming a Delta. loving horrifying.

Miami: Lots of people fleeing dictatorships are holed up in Miami and thereís a heavy population of Hispanic Deltas. The nightlife is nice and a lot of people have dreams of making it big in America by using their powers to try out for Deltaball or Triumph, Inc. but the city is rife with drug smuggling and gun violence. The cops of Miami are armed to the teeth because a lot of Deltas end up helping the cartels smuggle and break knees in exchange for unfulfilled promises. To end on a light note, there's a funny line that reminds me of Hotline Miami (and it's completely unintentional of course but I love those games) that states that Miami lives in a state of paranoia of being the next nuke target by the USSR.


This segment has an explicit reference to the Will Smith song and how he can sing the city's praises all he wants but it's hosed and to this I say shame on you for that low-hanging reference.

NYC: The city has spiraled out of control for two reasons: the disappearance of Superior and the destruction of six blocks by The Devastator's lair destruction device. Before both of those, the Delta heroes, NYPD and Superior were more than a match for any knucklehead who decided to set up shop in the city as a supervillain. Honestly, it's more the disappearance of Superior than The Devastator's actions that have caused problems, but The Devastator's act proved that yes, there are villains dangerous enough to cause massive destruction to save their own skins, drat the casualties. Either way, NYC is a ravaged warzone with most of the city destroyed from fights between Defiance, Delta Prime and the occasional escaped New Alcatraz Alpha. There's a heavy presence of both factions that have resulted in a mass exodus of scared civilians to Boston, New Jersey and other states. The only reason the city is still open is because JFK is afraid of how closing the city would look to the American people.

Philadelphia: Philly is drat near abandoned. Before New York started taking the brunt of the delta fighting, Philly was the main focus especially around the national landmarks. The Liberty Bell was used to beat a Delta called The Statesmen to death and Independence Hall was leveled by unknown fighters. Because the city wasn't really at the forefront of national attention (just regional attention), most of the businesses and civilians have moved to safer parts of Pennsylvania while the more crime-minded Deltas moved to NYC. It's getting safer but the city is still empty.


The perspective of this looks like the Liberty Bell is going to fall on this guy.

San Diego: In what is a disturbingly prescient bit of background fluff, San Diego is part of the bulwark Wall between America and Mexico. The Wall is 25 feet tall, made of reinforced concrete and topped with concertina wire, armed guards and gun batteries. And thankfully the game admits that it doesn't work. The main reason the Wall was built will be covered when we get to Mexico, but it was mostly a kneejerk reaction on JFK's part. San Diego is one of the main cities where Mexicans attempt to cross to America and the area is rife with violence against attempted crossers. They leave the bodies where they lie as an attempt to deter the next person.


"Welcome to San Diego, now turn around and gently caress off."

San Francisco: Frisco was nuked after Atlanta but it didn't get the ol' hydrogen airburst that Atlanta got. No, San Francisco was bombarded with neutron bombs. The only building that fell was the Golden Gate Bridge; everything else in San Francisco was still completely intact. When the military rolled in, there was nobody to save. There was nothing left to the people of San Francisco but corpses littering the streets and the buildings. They tried to get rid of all of the dead for almost a year through ocean burial, incineration and mass burial but eventually the army just gave up and abandoned the city and any remaining bodies. They call San Francisco the Haunted City now and while it's safe to live there, people rarely move in. The locals claim you can still smell the city's dead and people give it a wide berth out of fear or respect for the dead.

Washington D.C.: DC is a danger zone of corruption, terrorism and destroyed monuments. Defiance agents tend to be much more extreme in DC, harassing government figures or detonating bombs. Because they're playing in JFK's backyard, Primers come in bigger numbers and almost shoot to kill. The sole exception to this struggle was an attempt in 1996 by Lee Harvey Oswald and his new Dreadnauts to destroy DC like The Devastator did to Chicago. The attack was thwarted by Delta Prime and Defiance working together at the cost of hundreds of deaths, the destruction of two of the Smithsonian's and the top of the Washington monument getting knocked off. Though the media didn't report on the team up, both sides did manage to put aside their differences to stop Oswald and put him in Primer custody (until he escaped custody the day before his execution and is currently at large as a boogeyman in the criminal underworld).


"No fly zone my rear end, pigs!"

So what's America like on a smaller level? Most citizens are armed on a daily basis with minors carrying knives or self defense tools. You can't buy a gun if you're a felon or been convicted of a violent crime, but the background checks are optional for private individuals who can simply buy a gun and give it to their friend. There are more people carrying open or concealed and when someone starts shooting, there are a lot of scared citizens who draw their guns and join in the gunfight without knowing what the hell is going on. Spree shootings are up, most gunfights are bloodbaths, people are dueling out west over insults and there's been a rise of homegrown militias and "American defense" types of groups. People are scared and they want to protect themselves and their loved ones and property, so they ignore the bigger picture and fight for themselves instead of joining with other citizens.


I, uh. Huh. Well this is certainly some art.

Thoughts on Living In America: Some of the stuff about gang violence is tone deaf, the part about Miami has Spanish words sprinkled in and it's generally all kinda meh. I mostly just find the Wall and San Francisco to be the most interesting parts, the former for the game saying it's a stupid loving idea and the latter for being a good plot hook. But hey, it's generally new poo poo to share! It bums me out less than the beginning of the book, it has that going for it.

A WORLD OF HURT


"Welcome to the torture chamber/said the sign above the entrance!"

The game at least fully admits that the following information is generally relevant to American interests or what can easily be found out by reading a reputable newspaper. So it begins with Africa and we're not going to see all of Africa, just the general talking points of international politics/if it poses a threat to America and plot hooks.

AFRICA

Libya: Muammar Gaddafi is still in charge and he has a big violent hateboner for the USA. There have been multiple assassination attempts against him and every time he retaliates. Libyan terrorists have been found in a variety of places they shouldn't, such as the White House, and as a result the assassinations have been ramping up.

South Africa: As part of Apartheid, black Deltas were imprisoned by the corrupt state. When Nelson Mandela is killed in 1996, the black majority starts an uprising which unfortunately is shut down by the white government and white trained Deltas, some of them using bastardized Primer technology. The rebellion would have won if not for the imbalance of Deltas.

Africa in General: Many countries are run by dictators receiving guns and Deltas from the US or USSR to keep them in power for the interests of the Cold War. There's a lot of brush wars between regimes and rebellion militias, but even if the rebels win they tend to get approached by a representative of the US or USSR offering goods and services and the cycle continues.

EURASIA:

China: China has less Deltas than all other nations, which is weird and suspicious considering the population. Other than that, it's pretty much the same old PRC just with people wondering why there are less Deltas. There are also rumors that China has a power-inducement program in secret government labs and the only Deltas they allow are made in these labs who are trained to be soldiers and defenders of China.

Hong Kong: The city never returned to Chinese hands in 1997 because Britain backed out of the return deal with second thoughts. Then China invaded in 1998...and the people of Hong Kong sided with Britain and it was on like Donkey Kong. Both countries are fighting over control still, refusing to yield or back down but trying not to destroy the city in the process.

India: India is still fighting with Pakistan and both countries love their Deltas, some religious institutions viewing them as aspects of the Hindu gods on Earth. It's officially blasphemous, but in privacy some people believe it out of hope. Foreign Deltas are viewed with suspicion while native Deltas are viewed as a necessity. If you manifest powers, you have to serve the government of either country for at least five years. After that, your life is yours. Deltas are a boon to Bollywood cinematography but they're also trouble magnets. Aside from their relations with Deltas, India and Pakistan have the worst relationship in history at the moment after a nuclear bomb leveled Madras and the Indian government were unable to conclusively prove that it was caused by a Pakistani Delta agent.


Not even joking, Bollywood musicals are wild and interesting and this doesn't even seem out of place in one.

USSR: So Mighty Misha throws a military coup, the Great Mistake happens and the Cold War continues to this very day. Life in Soviet Russia sucks, especially if you're a Delta. If you manifest, you have a choice between gulag work in Siberia for not telling the government or get trained by the government. The government's answer to Delta Prime is the Red Brigade, Deltas that help the KGB fight the CIA and American influence. On the home front, the Hammers defend the USSR. The Sickles are the ones who work specifically with the KGB and do strike work abroad. Publically, the Sickles handle hostage negotiation and other foreign affairs. Secretly, the Sickles have deep cover sleeper agents in other countries. Their leader, Mikhail Tretyak, has been the target of five serious coups and numerous assassination attempts. Every time he's reported ill or sick he shows up fine the next day and every time there's a coup he makes a public show of hunting down every participant and having them executed.


Who the gently caress picked this picture for Russia? I think the drat thing is upside down and the woman with the uzi is falling towards her enemy!

THE PACIFIC:

Australia: The big thing about Australia is that they have no equivalent of the DRA. As a result, every country sweeps every plane or boat that goes to the outback for any Deltas that might be fleeing to safety. However, safety is a relative term. Just because you don't have to register your powers (even as an ex-pat) doesn't mean there are no rules. The big rule in Australia is that wearing masks is illegal and Deltas cannot have a secret identity. Break that rule and get brought to jail by Deltas working for the Australian police. On top of that, the citizens of Australia are not always the nicest people. Some Deltas have found themselves on the business end of a noose or shot in the streets by neighbors who hate them. The Deltas who live in Australia and have the money for security and protection build themselves a nice isolated home. The rest keep their head down and try not to use their powers if they can help it or limit any masked shenanigans.


Australia! I guess! What the hell he's doing, I don't know!

Japan: Once Superior killed Hitler, he flew to the Pacific and yelled at Hirohito to surrender. He immediately did and Japanese democracy took hold. Japan's history generally follows how it does in the real world: post-war tech boom, anime and manga become a profitable entertainment industry. Anime and manga were focused on Deltas saving Japan and the world from catastrophe and the most popular series revolved around the Silent Samurai, a real group of stealth-based Alphas. Then 1976 happened and an Alpha prison in Okinawa lost power in 1977. See, Japan really needed its Alphas to protect the country instead of the US Navy. Without them, a dozen super powered criminals were running roughshod across the island. One of them, Akira Yoshihama, pre-occupied himself with murdering everyone in the government in Tokyo until Emperor Hirohito himself shamed Yoshihama into surrendering. Now the Emperor is in charge again and he's preaching for a return to closed borders and tradition with the country's Deltas surrendering their lives to the wisdom of the Emperor as tools to make the country better. So of course there's a Defiance movement in Japan.

EUROPE: Generally speaking, the European Union hasn't really happened and most of the countries are dealing with their own problems and ignoring teaming up.

France: France does not like its Deltas. They consider them to be useless, destructive show-offs and while they leave policing them to the government, there's an air of subtle prejudice towards Deltas. Paris is generally where Deltas congregate and monuments have been broken in the past, the French pointedly refusing to fix the top of the Eiffel Tower as a statement.

Germany: Because Superior said so, Germany was remanded to total Allied control after WWII. Germany still ends up becoming an industrial giant, there's just never a West and East Germany. Germany's still got its head screwed on right thankfully and they have a practically 100% enrollment rate if a person manifests powers. It helps that the government knows exactly what to do with Deltas and that the Deltas in turn know they're doing this to help their country.

Great Britain: This is...incredibly narrow in focus. Basically because guns are illegal in Britain, most people duck and run and call for help when Delta business is going down. However, most Deltas have figured out the response times for police squads and RRTs so most Deltas hit and run before the cops ever show up. That's it. That's all there is to Britain. The gently caress?

Ireland: The Troubles are still going on predominantly between the IRA and the Orange Order. The conflict got kicked into high gear when an Alpha Catholic with the power to explode was killed in Derry by loyalists as the Alpha was looking for a Protestant arms cache. The ensuing explosion detonated the cache and leveled Derry. In retaliation, the Orangemen blew up the Irish Parliament three months later and things have been hell on earth since. Ireland is a dangerous place to be.


Y'know if this was colored, she'd have a green outfit and red hair because right now she just doesn't look Irish enough, beating a man with a loving shillelagh.

Italy: Italy's doing just fine, mostly because the government is stable by being incredibly corrupt and controlled by La Cosa Nostra. So Italy runs fine as long as the mob is happy. The only place they don't control is the Vatican, which is busy with...

The Covenant: The Covenant is a Papal-sanctioned force of Deltas that serve the Catholic Church and the Vatican. Members of The Covenant all tend to have the same sort of powers, holy/saintly powers. They're only beholden to the laws of God. Some countries view them as a neutral force allowed to move across borders but that's not true in America despite JFK being a Catholic (though I guess who the gently caress knows what Facade believes in). They're tolerated in America, but that tolerance has limits.


"Oh no, Sister, they're using a thin lines beam!"

Spain: I won't lie, I'm ignorant of the events this book is talking about regarding Spain. Spain is in a civil war with Basque separatists engaging in guerilla warfare against Franco/Miguel Alvarez Cabana's regime. Basque has gotten allies in Deltas they've promised full rights to in exchange for help. On the other side of things, Alvarez and his allies have been unable to stop the separatists and the Basques destroyed Seville in 1985.

Scandinavia: Norway and Sweden have probably the best programs for Deltas on the planet. If you manifest, you go to a training camp for six months where you learn your powers from other Deltas. After the training is done, the government matches you with a job that needs their help and would be stimulating/interesting for a Delta employee. That's pretty nice! It's just a shame that Soviet Finland is kind of just looming menacingly over both countries.

THE MIDDLE-EAST:

Iran: As decreed by the Ayatollah, Delta powers are an affront to Allah. You have the choice of leaving Iran or death. There's not a lot of Deltas who remain in Iran but the ones who do are remarkably brave/stupid.

Iraq: Because history has gone sideways, America never made any deals with Saddam Hussein or made any attempts to stop him because Kennedy couldn't spare the troops. Iraq occupied Kuwait in the 90s and they've been in the country ever since, jacking up the price of oil. The Truth figures that this is going to make a neighbor or another country angry and this might kick off another war.

Israel: Israel believes that Deltas are a gift from Yahweh so it's the duty of all good citizens to inform the government and use their powers to serve God and country. Being a Delta is treated like permanent military duty instead of the regular service all Israelis must serve and it's common for Deltas who practice Judaism to leave their home country for Israel when they manifest.

NORTH AND SOUTH AMERICA

Canada: Canada has the DRA but no mandatory draft. Unfortunately for any border-jumpers, Canada extradites back to the USA, even if you try to apply for asylum as an unregistered Delta. Aside from that, it has one major problem: independence movements backed by Deltas falling into the dissenting groups. There's a Quebecois movement for an independent Quebec, there's a collection of Canadian Inuit independence groups and they both have Deltas on their side. The government doesn't really tolerate them and as a result there's internal wars within Canada to put down these groups.


What the gently caress does this have to do with Canada?

Costa Rica: The president of Costa Rica, Marta Allende Alonzo, is a Delta and she lets other Deltas live as full citizens. The one caveat is that you have to help protect the country from CIA-led incursions. The country is a tropical paradise but the border is guarded by Deltas with weapons clashing against anyone trying to take it away from them.


I'M SO SCARED THAT I'M SWIMMING AND AMPHIBIOUS

Mexico: Mexico has been through 20 regime changes over the last 40 years thanks to violent coups and its stance on Deltas changes every time. Everyone's been trying to escape Central America but JFK's Wall is standing in the way because running South is a bad idea. The current government is run by General Juan Alberto Gutierrez, an Alpha who was serving time in a Mexican supermax and wasn't taken in the Vanishing due to power suppression. He eventually got loose and lead a coup with the help of a bunch of Deltas. His government is built on Delta power, so it may seem welcoming at first but Juan Alberto is far from stupid.

South America in General: The countries are banana republics run by anti-communist dictators propped up by the CIA and US. The drug lords are in turn fighting the governments and the CIA when their interests don't line up. A South American Delta will have their fair share of suitors should word about their powers get out, but a lot of Deltas have gone missing or died from picking sides or anyone knowing about them period.

THE UNITED NATIONS: The UN doesn't actually do much. The USA, USSR, PRC, Britain and France all have their own problems and they have veto power over each other and three of the five don't like each other. The UN does have its own Delta task force (the UNDDO, United Nations Delta Defense Organization) but that too doesn't necessarily do much because of coordinating Deltas from different countries and their countries all having egos. But when they work, they work.

Thoughts on the chapter: So the world sucks. I hope you guys understand the world sucks. I do honestly like how Scandinavia is a little bastion of sanity, that's a nice touch. It's weird how some of these countries wildly diverge from our timeline and some are just pretty much the same. It's incredibly odd how there's barely loving anything to England despite Ireland still having issues on a worse level. Some of it isn't thought-through well but at least there's not much here that's blatantly offensive (outside of some of the art). As far as world building goes, this doesn't particularly do much for me. Also I will say more about the Covenant later because spoilers, it turns out that they're part of the bigger metaplot and they're directly opposed to the Bargainers. So that's definitely a point in their favor, even if it's immediately negated by them being a super force in league with the metaplot.

NEXT TIME: Wonderful, wonderful powers! Note: only a few of them will be wonderful.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.


To accompany the update:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5BL4RNFr58

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009




If Germany wasn't occupied by the Soviets, what happened to its borders? Are they still at the Oder-Neisse Line? What does Poland look like?

And of course we have no idea what happened to the areas around San Francisco. I'm going to assume they're totally fine and Marin is divided between wanting the city demolished to improve traffic flow to elsewhere in the Bay and leaving it up as a barrier against tourists. Also please don't ever call it "Frisco" again.

Zereth
Jul 8, 2003




Kurieg posted:


Chapter 3: Character and Traits
So wait, these are all stock powers that every Beast has? Just for loving being a beast you get the ability to open anybody's splat-specific portal type? And so on?

loving hell that's a lot of annoying Poochie bullshit.

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009




When are you going to get to the chapter with the fireworks factory?! :cry:

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010




Lipstick Apathy

So the System Mastery RIFTS review informed me about the existence of the Palladium Fantasy RPG, and I've sort of fallen into a hole of reading through it out of sheer curiosity.

It doesn't seem so bad, the combat in particular actually sounds pretty straightforward, and I was thinking that maybe you wouldn't get into Megadamage inflationary non-sense when you're just swinging swords at each other.

Someone tell me what I'm in for? Is this system worth looking into?

Zereth
Jul 8, 2003




Wait. Can Beasts turn that power that forces people to like them off? And are they aware of it in-character?

Because if the answers are "No" and "Yes", that actually sounds a little unpleasant for Beasts. "Oh, you're a werewolf. Well, I will never know what you'd actually think of me without my spooky Poochie powers forcing you to like me."

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


Zereth posted:

loving hell that's a lot of annoying Poochie bullshit.

Yeah, I'm not fond of the term "Mary Sue" these days, but drat, it sure seems like Beasts check most of the boxes for it.

gradenko_2000 posted:

Someone tell me what I'm in for? Is this system worth looking into?

As far as old-school D&D clones go, it's actually pretty decent. It cuts out a lot of the overt complexity, has a more interesting magic system, and doesn't have a lot of Palladium's later excesses. It still has all the issues of an old-school D&D clone, but it's one of the better ones for the era it came out.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



Something about the God Machine as an antagonist bothers me some: how would you even know it's some alien God Machine unless you're a Demon, and why would you even want to fight it? There's a million and one shadowy forces doing seemingly inexplicable things for their own mysterious purposes, both in real life and in the World of Darkness, and the God Machine is at least not outright malevolent which puts it a cut above many.

unseenlibrarian
Jun 4, 2012

There's only one thing in the mountains that leaves a track like this. The creature of legend that roams the Timberline. My people named him Sasquatch. You call him... Bigfoot.

Well, you don't really fight the god machine so much as you end up in the middle of something it's doing and going 'Well, this is awful and/or weird" and trying to survive it. At which point you might recognize other awful and/or weird things, and realize that there's a common pattern of awful and or weird bullshit in your town, At which point, you're de facto fighting the god machine as it does awful and/or weird poo poo, even if it's just fighting the awful and or weird things rather than the God Machine, because you don't know there's a God Machine, just an awful weird poo poo generator.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



Which to me does not make the God Machine a compelling or interesting force to me. I think every game line already has a group or person or force that does that kind of thing.

By popular demand
Jul 17, 2007

IT *BZZT* WASP ME--
IT WASP ME ALL *BZZT* ALONG!




It seems to me that the god machine would work best at a low-wierdness setting.
Very few supernaturals and no big antagonists, only strange unknowable forces.

Count Chocula
Dec 25, 2011

WE HAVE TO CONTROL OUR ENVIRONMENT
IF YOU SEE ME POSTING OUTSIDE OF THE AUSPOL THREAD PLEASE TELL ME THAT I'M MISSED AND TO START POSTING AGAIN


Cythereal posted:

Which to me does not make the God Machine a compelling or interesting force to me. I think every game line already has a group or person or force that does that kind of thing.

I've been rewatching the X-Files, so I'm thinking of it as the alien conspiracy if it wasn't so lame and obvious. PCs slowly turn into Mulder, seeing patterns in everything that don't quite add up. It's mystery also puts it above everything else. Once you say, 'oh, vampires have infiltrated the Mafia' or 'Enron paid off Fox', you have an answer of some sort that the PCs can recognize. The God Machine just keeps getting scarier.
It's like that bit in Cube where somebody posits the Cube was just a hellish outcome of beuracracy that randomly came together. There's no Dracula or George W. to punch, just systems upon systems.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


The biggest problem, for me, with the God Machine is that I don't really see how it benefits from being in the World of Darkness instead of its own thing. But then, I find that's the case with a lot of Chronicles of Darkness. 'How does there also being dozens of vampires trying to rule the world add to this convoluted situation' is a question I find myself asking about most of the gamelines except Hunter. Like Cythreal said, oh, look, some weird poo poo. Which of the bazillion different sources of weird poo poo could this be? Oh, it's the magic computer monster, this week.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

To witness titanic events is always dangerous, usually painful, and often fatal.





Cythereal posted:

Which to me does not make the God Machine a compelling or interesting force to me. I think every game line already has a group or person or force that does that kind of thing.
Yeah, this is kind of where the God Machine thing breaks down for me a little, because it is so open ended it's hard to get a handle on the situation, and since the entire game line ecology seems built around the idea of making that max flexible, it's just sort of this slippery ended mood piece.

I don't think you have to answer every question, of course, or commit the whole line to a particular interpretation as Canon Truth, but you have to put SOMETHING down.

Count Chocula
Dec 25, 2011

WE HAVE TO CONTROL OUR ENVIRONMENT
IF YOU SEE ME POSTING OUTSIDE OF THE AUSPOL THREAD PLEASE TELL ME THAT I'M MISSED AND TO START POSTING AGAIN


Why? The world is an inexplicable, terrifying place run on rules nobody understands. A bit of that in fiction wouldn't hurt. You could do a trippy Pynchon or Vonnegut vibe (he had a gag about the Golgafrinchens engineeringing all of human civilization as a side effect of moving one part).

Night10194 posted:

The biggest problem, for me, with the God Machine is that I don't really see how it benefits from being in the World of Darkness instead of its own thing. But then, I find that's the case with a lot of Chronicles of Darkness. 'How does there also being dozens of vampires trying to rule the world add to this convoluted situation' is a question I find myself asking about most of the gamelines except Hunter. Like Cythreal said, oh, look, some weird poo poo. Which of the bazillion different sources of weird poo poo could this be? Oh, it's the magic computer monster, this week.

There was an old X-Files gag about how if the Monster of the Week episodes all ganged up on the conspiracy the aliens would die.
I dunno, running God Machine against one or two supernaturals would work. It's a natural ally/rival for political vampires and a great Mystery for Mages. If you like the Banality from oChangeling it's a nice source of that, and it works as the Progress that Luddite ecoterrorist werewolves fight against (I'd play that one from the God Machine's side).

It does seem like the Unknown Armies elements of nWoD sit uneasily with the more traditional ones tho.

Count Chocula fucked around with this message at 12:52 on May 25, 2016

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



If I had to use the God Machine, I think I'd make it an ally of Hunters. Add a tinge of benevolent weirdness to the poo poo they're dealing with, enough to make them wonder a little bit.

quote:

Why? The world is an inexplicable, terrifying place run on rules nobody understands. A bit of that in fiction wouldn't hurt. You could do a trippy Pynchon or Vonnegut vibe (he had a gag about the Golgafrinchens engineeringing all of human civilization as a side effect of moving one part).

This is maybe the biggest problem I have with the God Machine: you can do this without needing a God Machine at all. You don't even need to be supernatural about it. Just a computer glitch or some incompetent staffer or some arcane bureaucracy can do the trick.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


The God-Machine is effectively a plot device or disaster; anything interesting about it has to come from how people are affected by it. I wouldn't really think of it as an traditional antagonist, it's more like being a firefighter or trying to end racism than the usual stabbable baddies.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

gradenko_2000 posted:

So the System Mastery RIFTS review informed me about the existence of the Palladium Fantasy RPG, and I've sort of fallen into a hole of reading through it out of sheer curiosity.

It doesn't seem so bad, the combat in particular actually sounds pretty straightforward, and I was thinking that maybe you wouldn't get into Megadamage inflationary non-sense when you're just swinging swords at each other.

Someone tell me what I'm in for? Is this system worth looking into?
It's really not. If you're intensely interested in Palladium, it shows you what the Megaversal system was like before all that "inflationary nonsense" of Rifts and their other games. Most of the same fundamental flaws are there, like a bunch of fiddly rules you'll never use (like insanity and addiction rules) and sprinkling said annoying rules throughout the character creation section, making it a real chore to learn the system and roll up a character.

It's more interesting as a case study in system design from the early 80s, because it has all of the vices common to new games at the time, to the point that it reads like a parody. A lot of games showing up at that time--particularly ones that would go on to become multi-genre universal systems, like Megaversal, BRP, and Rolemaster--were stuck in the mindset of needing to define themselves in terms of how they were different from D&D. And the idea was either "D&D, but I fixed it," meaning more detailed and "realistic," or "This ain't D&D!" meaning that is isn't set in the D&D milieu.

Either way, the games have AD&D's fingerprints all over them. Lots of them have 3-18 ability scores, a combat system that is basically D&D with a bunch of fiddly extra rules, plus a skill system (often percentile-based). You also see sops to D&D cliches in the setting--Tekumel has dungeons and Glorantha has elves and dwarves but different, okay? Or still defining gameplay in terms of overland travel, encounters, and dungeon delves.

Really, they have many of the faults Ron Edwards identified in fantasy heartbreakers. But as Ron himself said, in the late 70s D&D but fixed! was commercially viable.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018



Werewolf: the Forsaken, Second Edition

Elodoth are the Half Moon, keeping hidden as much as they show. They are perhaps not as enigmatic as the Ithaeur, but they're definitely mysterious, as often taciturn and paranoid as gregarious and charming. While they will not betray a packmate, they hold very little else to be sacred. Despite this, they are no loners - they're very social, forging connections to everyone they meet, human or spirit. They never miss the chance to master the connections that bind all things in their territory, as you never know what part of that web they will need. However, this does have the problem of making them feel personally unconnected to everything, except possibly the pack. The pack, at least, appreciates their ability to go anywhere and fit in. They can hide in any crowd, a wolf in sheep's clothing, and they have a reputation for fairness. After all, they can see both sides of an argument for their merits and make a judgment based on what is needed. Perhaps they are lawgivers, perhaps emissaries, perhaps cops. The question is just whether they believe in the rules they enforce and obey, or just use them because those around them find value in those rules. Some Elodoth have trouble seeing any given set of values as superior to any other.

One set of circumstances, though, is clear: the hunt. A hunting Elodoth has only one job: bring down the prey. To do that, they will use whatever resources they have. Maybe they bargain with local spirits to force the prey into a traffic jam, or use the local wildlife to reveal the prey's position, maybe they use Wolf-Blooded packmates on the police force to help...or on the Little League team, or in the sanitation department. They call in whatever favors they need to make the hunt successful, and they aren't shy about making sacrifices if they must. Other werewolves can find this mercilessness unpleasant, even sociopathic. Sure, any werewolf might kill or maim, but others would not set up their cousin on the police force to be torn apart by the Pure just to provide a useful blood trail. To the Elodoth, however, the Sacred Hunt is one time when the stakes, resources, options and costs all line up. It lets them take their place in the web of connections at last, for a few hours, and experience the clarity that other, less 'balanced' werewolves enjoy.

Even before the First Change, Elodoths are naturals at making connections. The most popular girl in school, the de factor mayor of a small town. Maybe they're friendly, maybe they scare people, but most Elodoth defined themselves by their place in the web of connections they built. The First Change often strips everything from them, however. All Uratha lose something, but many Elodoth, even those fortunate enough not to be around anyone fragile whenit comes, end up destroying their lives. Their plans are meaningless now, the most important people to them are no longer their old friends, but their pack. Some think of the Change as shifting from darkness into light, while others see it as light into darkness.

Stereotypes posted:

Cahalith: I can't reason with their pack. You go talk to them.
Elodoth are logical, manipulative, lateral thinkers...but they aren't usually good storytellers. It's not that they don't understand how people feel or think - they just aren't good at making people feel special. The Cahalith, to them, are focusedo n all the wrong details. They give up advantages, they monologue when they should kill.
Irraka: drat it, where did she go?
Elodoth find the Irraka infuriating. They vanish quickly, often without waiting for instructon. A good Elodoth learns to anticipate the Irraka and plan for that, but even then, they make Elodoth nervous. After all, Irraka operate wholly in the dark.
Ithaeur: I don't care if it's a murder-spirit. We made a promise - no one dies here.
Spirits operate by strict rules, and an Elodoth can respect that...but they can't let those laws violate whatever law the Elodoth has chosen, which can lead to friction with Ithaeur that sympathize more with spirits. However, their insights are amazingly useful when it comes time to deal with spirit courts.
Rahu: I am sorry, my brother. If you would only think, this would not have happened.
Rahu are the spirit of the law, where Elodoth are the letter of it. Rahu are purely of the light. Elodoth can manipulate them easily, sure, but they often feel dirty doing so, as if using the purity of a Rahu in their plans is wrong. They usually get over it.

The Hunter's Aspect of the Elodoth is Isolating. Their prey is alone, shunned by other creatures. They seek to find a sfe place, somewhere to hide and wait, but other people ignore them, ignore the hunting howls. They have no one to turn to. The innate Gifts of the Elodoth are Half Moon, Insight and Warding. Their Auspice Skills are Empathy, Investigation and Politics, and their Renown is Honor. Their innate power is a perpetual awareness of the broder of light and dark. Once per session, they can 'cure' a werewolf of the Death Rage, causing the Stunned Tilt for the turn after they leave it if they were in Basu-Im. Alternatively, they may force a werewolf into the Death Rage, rolling Presence+Empathy+Primal Urge against Resolve+Composure, sending the target into Wasu-Im if they win.

Blood Talon Elodoth are experts in hunting those who break the Oath of the Moon, or who serve as exceptions to it. They are those who pass sentence on others of the People. Bone Shadow Elodoth learn the ways of spirits - not lore or ecology, but which spirits are dominant, which have foes, what they consider taboo. This lets them find where the prey will never go and what they never do. Hunter in Darkness Elodoth respect their prey, the Hosts, if grudgingly. After all, a Host is as much a dichotomy as an Elodoth...but a Host is a blasphemy, so they're hunted all the same. Iron Master Elodoths are often experts in human law, making sure their packs don't get arrested or don't stay that way. They also often understand human customs deeply, blending in no matter where they go. Storm Lord Elodoth learn both spirit and human behavior, but rarely seek to become part of their prey's social circles. They tend to be the least complicated Elodoths, as the Claimed they hunt have removed themselves from the protection of either human or spiritual law.

Next time: Moonless night

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


I think comparisons between GMC and UA are only skin deep. UA was a reaction to the oWOD, given that it emphasized the agency of humans as dominant in supernatural affairs. GMC is the opposite, where humanity has even less agency than they did back in the oWoD, and so thematically stands in direct opposition to UA.

Neither is necessarily better, but they're very different games underneath the surface of strangeness.

Magnusth
Sep 25, 2014

Hello, Creature! Do You Despise Goat Hating Fascists? So Do We! Join Us at Paradise Lost!




Honestly, i prefer the god-machine as portrayed in 'voice of the angel,' way back in the original book. especially if you're going the conspiranoia angle

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


Zereth posted:

So wait, these are all stock powers that every Beast has? Just for loving being a beast you get the ability to open anybody's splat-specific portal type? And so on?

loving hell that's a lot of annoying Poochie bullshit.

Yeah, since Beasts were conceptualized as the crossover splat and specifically with werewolves the powers that allow them to drag not-werewolves into the Shadow is very high level (And I think a breaking point) So beasts being able to do it on their own is helpful. The fact that it's also abusable is the issue.

Kavak posted:

When are you going to get to the chapter with the fireworks factory?! :cry:

There's a fireworks factory?

Zereth posted:

Wait. Can Beasts turn that power that forces people to like them off? And are they aware of it in-character?

Because if the answers are "No" and "Yes", that actually sounds a little unpleasant for Beasts. "Oh, you're a werewolf. Well, I will never know what you'd actually think of me without my spooky Poochie powers forcing you to like me."
No, and also No. Other than the sense that they think everyone is family. That's one of the things about Beast is that it's escapist revenge fantasy for all the loners who were picked on in school. Other Beasts automatically think of them as family and they've got enough grease on the wheels to do that with vampires, werewolves, and maybe Mages too. You will have a network of family and friends as a Beast, as long as you aren't actively a terrible person towards them, because they are family.


And yes that's utter bullshit but those are explicitly the mechanics and themes of the game.

FMguru
Sep 10, 2003

peed on;
sexually

Halloween Jack posted:

Really, they have many of the faults Ron Edwards identified in fantasy heartbreakers. But as Ron himself said, in the late 70s D&D but fixed! was commercially viable.
When Ryan Dancey was introducing the D20 system/license/idea circa 2000, he mentioned Palladium FRPG a lot. Dancey pointed out that of all the games that tried to compete with D&D in the "pseduo-medieval fantasy adventurers" space, only PFRPG was any kind of ongoing success, and it was literally just some guy's pile of house rules on top of a D&D clone. His point was that fantasy RPGers weren't interested in new and innovative systems, they wanted to play D&D, and we know this because the two best-selling fantasy RPGs year after year were 1) D&D and 2) a D&D clone. Everything else (Rolemaster, RuneQuest, Earthdawn, Chivalry & Sorcery, etc.) ended up as an unsustainable niche product.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


I don't think you can label an RPG from 1983 a heartbreaker. The whole point of a heartbreaker is making a D&D-clone during a time they were effectively doomed to market failure and obscurity (like the 90s), and 1983 was very much not that time.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

Oh, you definitely can't. Just saying that the guys who wrote heartbreakers weren't committing any sins that can't be found in earlier, well-known, respected games that also started life as AD&D knockoffs. But the designers of BRP and Runequest have the excuse that there just weren't as many games in 1980; there were many things we can do with the medium that hadn't been thought of yet.

I'd say that BRP and GURPS (which derived from The Fantasy Trip books) were ongoing successes, even if they never attained the breakout, smash-hit status that games like Shadowrun and Vampire achieved for a time.

I'm disinclined to say anything nice about Dancey, but at the time D&D 3 was released, I can see where he was coming from with the "one system to rule them all" thing. In the late 90s/early 00s it was trendy for games to have a unique system for the sake of having a unique system. (I ranted about this a couple weeks ago.) White Wolf, Alderac, Eden, Dream Pod 9, and Last Unicorn all had house systems wherein character traits are rated 1-5 or 1-6, but each system used a different resolution mechanic. And it seems the designers weren't even choosing their specific resolution mechanic because they wanted a particular results curve, or difficulty scale, or achieving a particular kind of balance between characters with different abilities, or any other coherent design goal. It was just for the sake of having a unique system.

Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 15:16 on May 25, 2016

Hostile V
May 30, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.



Kavak posted:

If Germany wasn't occupied by the Soviets, what happened to its borders? Are they still at the Oder-Neisse Line? What does Poland look like?

And of course we have no idea what happened to the areas around San Francisco. I'm going to assume they're totally fine and Marin is divided between wanting the city demolished to improve traffic flow to elsewhere in the Bay and leaving it up as a barrier against tourists. Also please don't ever call it "Frisco" again.
Yeah I got no answers for Poland. And don't you know that the neutron bomb is the cleanest bomb around, there's no extra fallout over the rest of the area? It's really just lazy scattershot world building in the end.

Crisco.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


This must be the absolute worst thing for you then, right?

Hostile V
May 30, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.



In his defense, it's Hardee's/Carl Jr.'s

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

Cythereal posted:

Something about the God Machine as an antagonist bothers me some: how would you even know it's some alien God Machine unless you're a Demon, and why would you even want to fight it? There's a million and one shadowy forces doing seemingly inexplicable things for their own mysterious purposes, both in real life and in the World of Darkness, and the God Machine is at least not outright malevolent which puts it a cut above many.
It's not malevolent insofar as it has no emotions. But it's utterly amoral and more callous than Enron and the Camorra combined.

Alien Rope Burn posted:

One of the few issues I had with God-Machine was some of their examples just seemed random rather than creepy, like the cave full of nails. I mean, that's odd, sure, but it just feels to me like the authors ended up coming up with stuff that's non-sequiturs than something I would actually find unnerving. The only major issue for me is that what the God-Machine does is often presented as so random and arbitrary it just feels like a big ball of random plot justification than a fully-formed concept. Maybe the adventures help out with that - I admit I never read them, mainly just the setting material - but there's a certain level of "you can't understand it!" that keeps me from a GM from understanding fully what I'm supposed to do with it.
Like I said earlier, the God-Machine's biggest virtue to me is that it's thoroughly material, not some evil god on the astral plane. It's made of metal and glass and rubber and it needs to manipulate people to maintain its infrastructure. It actually needs to present more "mundane" material threats and less stuff that is just random creepypasta or supervillain mass murder plots. (The guidelines for Output and Linchpins give a clear idea of what supernatural poo poo the God-Machine can do and wants to do, without it doing weird supernatural poo poo all the time.)

That's not to say I don't like some of the weird poo poo, like the ATM that wants people's hair. I can think of several good reasons the God-Machine would want to collect such things surreptitiously (like Big Mad Drongo pointed out). And the stuff that is too random can be tweaked. A cave filled with heaps of 10-penny nails that magically never rust isn't interesting to me. But a cave converted into a secret warehouse, with tarps on the floors and plastic sheeting stretched overhead, stacked with cases of washers and ball bearings (probably because there's Infrastructure nearby) actually points to something the PCs can investigate. But stuff like "The God-Machine controls a shoe store, and every third Tuesday of the month, a guy comes in and buys every size 8 shoe" not so much.

Another thing I really like about it is that it's thoroughly insinuated itself into mortal infrastructure. It fosters paranoia. Like, reusing my previous example, say the God-Machine owns the Baskin-Robbins down the street. Maybe it was just a good investment. Maybe it projected that the slight congestion in foot traffic this would cause would be beneficial to its plans. Maybe it's something less arcane, like the store is a good observation post or meeting place for its local agents. But if your PCs figure out the store is a God-Machine asset and stage a frontal assault, they'll probably just kill a hapless Baskin-Robbins employee.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



Halloween Jack posted:

It's not malevolent insofar as it has no emotions. But it's utterly amoral and more callous than Enron and the Camorra combined.

Which means there's no meaningful difference between them as far as most people are concerned.

I'm just not getting why this thing needs a writeup. It's not malevolent, it hates supernaturals which is only a good thing, you can't really stop it, and it doesn't do anything not already covered by various other weirdness in the setting.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

Why does the World of Darkness have vampires in it? Mobsters and rapists are already things that exist.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Halloween Jack posted:

Why does the World of Darkness have vampires in it? Mobsters and rapists are already things that exist.

It's less a matter of that and more that something as loving huge as the God Machine feels like it'd be better served by more focus.

Or take this Deviant game they're pitching, where you're escaped experiments on the lam from the people who made you. The OP guys have said the main enemy will be normal humans who are organized conspiracies or powerful government agencies. That sounds kinda interesting; how is that concept benefited by having cold war devilmen and wizards hanging about? Who are also often powerful enough to override that A plot.

Serf
May 5, 2011




Why should you have to use every splat in WoD to run a God-Machine game? Use what you want, ignore the rest. Also the God-Machine is a far more compelling entity to me than anything else I've seen in WoD books.

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Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

Night10194 posted:

Or take this Deviant game they're pitching, where you're escaped experiments on the lam from the people who made you. The OP guys have said the main enemy will be normal humans who are organized conspiracies or powerful government agencies. That sounds kinda interesting; how is that concept benefited by having cold war devilmen and wizards hanging about? Who are also often powerful enough to override that A plot.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Do any of the WoD games necessarily benefit from crossover? The God-Machine is a "default" antagonist for a "default" chronicle you can use if you are running a straight WoD game without the PCs being any of the monster splats; that's why the GMC serves as a revised corebook.

If the problem with the God-Machine is that it seems too big and powerful to oppose, well, none of the WoD games really posit a campaign where you take on the big antagonists and completely vanquish them. Like, I don't think the prototypical Mage campaign assumes you'll kill all the Exarchs, crush the Seers and close the Abyss. If anything, the GM presents the PCs with clear measurable ways to strike a blow against it: foil its plans and physically destroy pieces of its infrastructure.

Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 16:06 on May 25, 2016

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