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Daeren
Aug 17, 2009

YER MUSTACHE IS CROOKED


Tasoth posted:

So this is my first contact with Werewolf: The Forsaken and I want to work out some logic about it and beast.

Slashers and murders are bad news for an area because they taint the spiritual nature of the place.
Once tainted, really bad spirits move in and start to have a bad effect on the physical world.
Werewolves walk the line and make sure humans don't draw in the bad spirits and bad spirits don't make the physical world terrible.
Beast, by their very nature, would heavily taint the spiritual essence of an area by abusing, torturing and generally hurting people.
Iron Masters specifically choose to hunt supernatural enemies.
Werewolves also like prey that put up a good fight.

So how are werewolves and Beasts supposed to be buds again? I would think they'd draw hunting packs like rotten fruit does flies.

You'd think so, wouldn't you!

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The Lone Badger
Sep 24, 2007



Doesn't the 'soul being replaced with an ancient evil' thing make them just an unusual type of Host? Rip and tear.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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Werewolf: the Forsaken, Second Edition

The Storm Lords (First Tongue: Iminir) are unstoppable. Lesser predators get tired, feel pain, eventually stop. The Storm Lords do not. They endure, no matter what is done to them. They kill anything in their way. But only the must brutal prey is worthy of such devotion - the most dangerous prey: the Claimed, unholy union of flesh and spirit. The Storm Lords are cold and ruthless, seemingly calm even in the throes of the Death Rage, even as they slaughter all around them. Pain and pity mean nothing to them, and they never stop. The prey can run and hide - but eventually, fear and fatigue will drive them mad...and the Storm Lords will keep coming, for they swore an oath: Allow no one to witness or to tend your weakness.

Self-reliance and personal strength are the greatest virtues of the Storm Lords. They expect all Uratha to push themselves beyond their limits, for only in enduring hardship can they approach the glory of Urfarah. They hold themselves to an even higher standard than they hold everyone else. They know secret rites, which teach them to be heirs to Father Wolf, rising beyond flesh and becoming more. It is said that a Storm Lord who masters their Harmony and becomes one with their Primal Urge can one day ascend to take on the place of Father Wolf as Lord of the Boundary. Among others, Storm Lords have a reputation for trying to claim leadership for themselves and refusing any offer of help, no matter how small. If so, that's more ego than ethos - a Storm Lord expects everyone, including themselves, to know their place and do their job. If that means leadership, fine, but it doesn't always.



The Storm Lords follow Skolis-Ur, the Winter Wolf. Skolis-Ur is the eldest of those Firstborn bound to the Uratha, and he sees himself and his children as those who must live up to the legacy of the Father Wolf. Their distance from that goal is a challenge, not a failure, and the Storm Lords have never shrunk from challenge.

Stories of the Firstborn posted:

  • This story is true. In the time before time, the world was forever green and sunny, and the bounty of the hunt was without end. Father Wolf and his children hunted then, for sustenance, to keep the Marches, and for the sheer joy of it. Then Skolis-Ur was born. As his mother labored, the world grew cold, and the Firstborn marveled to see their breath escaping like a steaming cloud. When the pup opened his eyes, snow began to fall in great flurries. At his birthing howl, a great wind tore through the world, and flesh and spirit alike knew the bite of winter. "This cold will destroy the world," said Fenris-Ur. "It is the chill of death," said Kamduis-Ur. "The prey will leave a trail even a child could follow," said Hikaon-Ur. "The prey will adapt," said Sagrim-Ur. And Father Wolf looked upon his child and was pleased.
  • This story is true. After the murder of Father Wolf, when the Forsaken were scattered like grains across the earth and hunted by flesh and spirit alike, a clever hunter chased a monster. The monster was stronger than the hunter, but the hunter endured its blows, though they tore her flesh and spilled her blood. The monster was faster then the hunter, but when the monster stopped to rest, the hunter pessed on, though her muscles ached and her very bones were weary. At last she chased the monster up a great mountain, where the bitter cold froze it stiff and slowed its pace so that the hunter caught up. After a great battle, the monster lay dead, but the hunter was mortally wounded. It was then that Skolis-Ur emerged from his den, drawn by the noise of battle. He offered to bind the hunter's wounds, but she refused and packed them with snow to numb the pain. He offered to carry her down the mountain, but she refused and began the torturous climb herelf. When she could walk no further, he offered to end her pain, but she refused and lingered for a full day and night before dying. As her spirit rose from her body, Skolis-Ur bowed his head in respect and said, "here is a true scion of Urfarah." It is from this tale that we take our oath: "Allow no one to witness or to tend your weakness."
  • This story is true. Everybody knows the Firstborn can't come to the physical world anymore. They're just too big, too mighty - any one of them would suck the world dry of Essence in a heartbeat. Skolis-Ur is no different, but sometimes, when the winter storms rage or the snow falls silent and chills to the bone, he's able to reach into the world, just a little. Sometimes he appears as a Storm Lord with a coat of pure white fur, other times as a wolf made of ice and bright, painful light. I've even heard that sometimes he chooses a Wolf-Blooded to ride for as long as the storm endures...but what does that say about the hunt?

The Storm Lords hunt Ridden and Claimed. For a spirit to cross the Gauntlet is wrong - but to steal human flesh and twist it into a mockery? That is an insult to the memory of Urfarah. The Claimed are dangerous - they could be anyone, at any time. Even those you thought were friends, lovers or packmates can be possessed and Ridden. When a Storm Lord loses kin to a spirit's claiming, they are expected to lead the hunt themself. Their tribe will mourn with them, sure, but not hunt with them. It's respect - an acknowledgement that, where loved ones are concerned, we're all a little weak. If no one is there to see the hunt's end, no one sees a moment of wekaness.

The Storm Lords are known as the Scions of Urfarah to themselves, Cold Bastards when others want to insult them and Howlers to the spirits and the Pure. Their tribal Gifts are Evasion, Dominance and Weather. Their Tribal Renown is Honor. Storm Lord moots are preferably in high, cold places. If you can't manage a frozen mountaintop, at least go for the top of a high rise with the AC cranked all the way. Storm Lord moots are about constantly testing each other for weakness. In Kuala Lampur, Storm Lords play a game they name sugrah - after an evening of socializing, they pair off at random and take turns naming the weaknesses they saw in the other and how they'd use them to defeat each other. The most creative and incisive wins a small boon. Storm Lord moots also often hold a strong religious element - ecstatic ordeals and sacrifices to Skolis-Ur are common, but never to Urfarah. Urfarah is dead and gone, after all, and it's their job to replace him. On the hunt, a Storm Lord has to be ready for anything. The powers of one Claimed or Ridden will vary wildly from another's. Storm Lords are cautious, gathering what information they can before going in for the kill. When possible, they like to harness the local environment to hamper their prey and take advantage of its weaknesses. Even when hunting others, they know what warning signs to look for in case a spirit decides to Claim someone. They are experts at finding the people who are weak-willed and vulnerable, and are more than happy to use those needs against their prey. Off the hunt, Storm Lords are rarely idle. They seek self-improvement constantly, developing skills or pushing themselves to survive greater dangers. They are the most likely to go off and hunt alone, without a pack backing them, to see if they can handle it. If they survive, they are worthy of Skolis-Ur. If not...well, too bad.

Stereotypes posted:

Blood Talons: Killing was only one part of our Father's duty.
Bone Shadows: Chase your ghosts, brothers, but when they walk as men, you yield the hunt to us.
Hunters in Darkness: The dark and the cold go hand-in-hand.
Iron Masters: You walk among the herd - but don't forget what you are.
The Pure: They're like neglected children, acting out for attention.
Sin-Eaters: Claimed by the dead is still Claimed.

Next time: Ghost wolves

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


Tasoth posted:

So this is my first contact with Werewolf: The Forsaken and I want to work out some logic about it and beast.

Slashers and murders are bad news for an area because they taint the spiritual nature of the place.
Once tainted, really bad spirits move in and start to have a bad effect on the physical world.
Werewolves walk the line and make sure humans don't draw in the bad spirits and bad spirits don't make the physical world terrible.
Beast, by their very nature, would heavily taint the spiritual essence of an area by abusing, torturing and generally hurting people.
Iron Masters specifically choose to hunt supernatural enemies.
Werewolves also like prey that put up a good fight.

So how are werewolves and Beasts supposed to be buds again? I would think they'd draw hunting packs like rotten fruit does flies.

According to the Beast fiction anthology: Beasts who associate with the Uratha either lie through their loving teeth and let Kinship take care of the rest, or only feed utilizing Family Dinner since for some reason that leaves absolutely no resonance on the primordial dream at all. Any adequately informed Werewolf would probably try to kill a beast on sight unless they were really really trying to help.

Punting posted:

To be fair, the actual fiction (as was posted in the thread) in Beast about a werewolf meeting one was written in a "Well that's the kind of guy I'd be if I went totally bugfuck crazy, jesus christ" tone.

I'm pretty sure that was an Incarnate Merger that the storm lord met, but still.

The Lone Badger posted:

Doesn't the 'soul being replaced with an ancient evil' thing make them just an unusual type of Host? Rip and tear.

Yes.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.


Would BOB from Twin Peaks work as a Beast?

Tricky Dick Nixon
Jul 26, 2010

by Nyc_Tattoo


MonsieurChoc posted:

Would BOB from Twin Peaks work as a Beast?

They don't really really change hosts as often, otherwise this is actually legitimately a cool direction to go with a splat like that. Garbanzola is pretty accurate as well to the whole feeding aspect.

E: Though come to think of it BOB didn't change hosts much either, and needed to "cultivate" Leland since he was a child, visiting him before finally taking over Homecoming style. So this works rather well actually.

Simian_Prime
Nov 6, 2011

When they passed out body parts in the comics today, I got Cathy's nose and Dick Tracy's private parts.

MonsieurChoc posted:

Would BOB from Twin Peaks work as a Beast?

He works better as one of the Strix from Requiem.

Beyond all the creepy stuff, for me Beast's big sin is it's misleading premise. The pitch leads you into thinking that you're playing some kind of mythic monster in the modern day, like a hydra or minotaur.

But instead you're playing a cultist who sacrificed his soul to an evil goddess, for powers fueled by abuse. It'd be like a Call of Cthulhu game where you played the insane servants of the Old Ones, and the Investigators were cast as bigots trying to oppress your religious freedom.

Bedlamdan
Apr 25, 2008


Simian_Prime posted:

He works better as one of the Strix from Requiem.

The owls are not what they seem

Tricky Dick Nixon posted:

They don't really really change hosts as often, otherwise this is actually legitimately a cool direction to go with a splat like that. Garbanzola is pretty accurate as well to the whole feeding aspect.

It's garmonbozia, please respect Twin Peaks lore.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.


Simian_Prime posted:

He works better as one of the Strix from Requiem.

:aaaaa: That's perfect!

Actually, Beasts are closer to lovely Cenobites than BOB. :cenobite:

Young Freud
Nov 25, 2006



MonsieurChoc posted:

:aaaaa: That's perfect!

Actually, Beasts are closer to lovely Cenobites than BOB. :cenobite:

I would say probably more like Francis Dollarhyde, which is funny, because the game pretty much expects you to be playing like Hannibal Lecter.

Hostile V
May 30, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.



Beast has me kicking around an idea for a more serious game/story about bad relationships. Some people are monsters or villains, some people are slayers or champions and they can switch between their true self and their identity that hides who they are. You can live a normal life as a bad guy or as a good guy. They can be friends or work together, you can use your powers still without needing to fuel them.

But sometimes you come across that person where everything about them drives you wild. Your powers are stronger, your plots get more satisfactory. Everything about conflicting with this person feels so good, so right, so natural. But it's not good for either of you. The passion burns so hot it consumes your life, your job, your loved ones. And unless you can walk away and break it off, it'll consume you or them or both of you.

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.



Isn't that basically Monsterhearts though?

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


The problem is, that's not Beast at all. There are rules for hungers, and rules for lessons, and examples for feeding, but the game never actually makes a value judgement on them.

Say someone's stuck in an abusive relationship. They wake up every day not knowing if they'll make it out with just a black eye or a broken leg. A Benevolent Anakim Predator might impart the lesson "He will kill you, get out." But a not-nice Namtaru Tyrant would impart the lesson "He's the best you'll ever get, without him you'll die alone."
By the rules of the game: Both of those are valid lessons

Hostile V
May 30, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.



Oh yeah no it's absolutely not Beast. Beast can go gently caress itself. Just trying to use something bad to inspire something better and different.

And while I do like Monsterhearts, I would want this to be less a thing about young-ish people being confused and getting better and make it more about people who generally have their poo poo together and think they're above these things, but they're not. Their hearts and desires are more fallible than they think.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

Count Chocula posted:

Comics blogs are starting to reevaluate the 90s and it's terrible reputation. Brave New World is a reminder of why it got that reputation. It's a grimdark point-missing of Moore and Miller and other British Invasion guys like Howard Chaykin, topped off with horrible art. It's like Alan Moore's quote about all the comics based on his bad mood.
To be fair, it's not like all the work of that generation of creators has aged like fine wine, though Chaykin's definitely benefits in hindsight by not wearing the same self-serious mask as Marshal Law and Judge Dredd. (For that matter, Brave New World and Underground both seem to me like they're based more on the rest of the 2000AD crowd's work than on Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns.)

Young Freud posted:

I had thought that same thing but, as a satire, it was something that was done better and way more obvious in Ray Winninger's Underground. I think it was something I touched on in my review of the game, the developers got the appeal of big iron but also viewed it as an almost self-destructive quality that was subject to manipulation by the elite: the gun book that's not really a gun book "Fully Strapped Always Packed" has a meeting transcript of some gun manufacturer execs and an advertising executive from "Demo Fear", specialists in capitalizing on fear-based marketing, discussing marketing guns to scared housewives and kids, up to including .22 ammo in Happy Meals from the cannibal fast food franchise Tastee Ghoul, which produces this handy infographic to describe where everyone fits in the Circle of Life...



And that's just one example. There's loads where Underground apes NRA slogans juxtaposed with the image of an emotionally-crippled, 'roided-out maniac fondling a long arm, and parodies of gun ads and culture, including a NRA-catered Bible narrated by Charlton Heston. It's just another element of the free market libertarianism gone mad that makes up Underground's America.
My main problem with Underground is that every single thing about the setting is such extreme parody, and so far down the rabbit hole of libertarian dystopia, that the idea of playing reformist supers seems like a non-starter. The setting seems as crazy as Marshal Law, Transmetropolitan, and American Flagg stacked on top of each other, which is too much for me to feel like the PCs can relate to the world.

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015


Tasoth posted:

So how are werewolves and Beasts supposed to be buds again? I would think they'd draw hunting packs like rotten fruit does flies.

I'm not an expert on WoD at all, but I assume there's at least one type of playable critter around that is all about "Screw those other guys / We don't get along with anyone else". But then Beast comes prancing around and is suddenly BFF with everyone.

It is also nice for a storytelling game using something called the Storyteller System that decides inter-critter relationships via rollplaying.

Hostile V posted:

Beast has me kicking around an idea for a more serious game/story about bad relationships. Some people are monsters or villains, some people are slayers or champions and they can switch between their true self and their identity that hides who they are. You can live a normal life as a bad guy or as a good guy. They can be friends or work together, you can use your powers still without needing to fuel them.

And I've got the weirdest idea about a MRA: The Privilege. What is Beast doing with me?!

Hostile V
May 30, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.



It's teaching you the greatest lesson of all: Beast sucks, don't play Beast, make things better than Beast to make he world a better place.

Also Defiants credits American Flagg and Marshal Law as inspirations for BNW, so there's that.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


You failed your resolve roll against Kinship. Beast is now the only game you want to play.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



Doresh posted:

I'm not an expert on WoD at all, but I assume there's at least one type of playable critter around that is all about "Screw those other guys / We don't get along with anyone else".

This is the Prometheans. The universe literally hates them on a personal level, and so if they stay in any one place for more than a day or two bad poo poo starts to happen. The Wasteland merely devastates the area. The Disquiet goes to work on the people, turning them against the Created - precisely how depends on the given type of Promethean you're dealing with.

As written, everyone is affected by Disquiet, supernatural or no.

Draxion
Jun 9, 2013






Doresh posted:

I'm not an expert on WoD at all, but I assume there's at least one type of playable critter around that is all about "Screw those other guys / We don't get along with anyone else". But then Beast comes prancing around and is suddenly BFF with everyone.

It's Demons, and they absolutely hate Beasts. As far as I know the game never says exactly why other than that they come from different sources of power, but while they don't really need to or usually want to Demons can get along with other splats just fine. They just don't like Beasts on instinct.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


Cythereal posted:

As written, everyone is affected by Disquiet, supernatural or no.

It's hard to say, but Mages (as of second edition) may be able to counter it with their Nimbus. It's hard to say for sure until Prometheans get definitive mechanics.

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015


Draxion posted:

It's Demons, and they absolutely hate Beasts. As far as I know the game never says exactly why other than that they come from different sources of power, but while they don't really need to or usually want to Demons can get along with other splats just fine. They just don't like Beasts on instinct.

I think they might just have a They Live situation going. Or they just felt that the newest splat in the WoDverse should make the second-newest splat a bit more special than the older ones.

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


Alien Rope Burn posted:

It's hard to say, but Mages (as of second edition) may be able to counter it with their Nimbus. It's hard to say for sure until Prometheans get definitive mechanics.

Mages have always been able to remove Disquiet from themselves with Mind magic; the problem is that they have to realize it's a thing they have to do.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



Dave Brookshaw posted:

Mages have always been able to remove Disquiet from themselves with Mind magic; the problem is that they have to realize it's a thing they have to do.

Yeah, that's the trouble with Disquiet: there's no indication that it's not you simply taking a dislike to someone. You have to go looking to realize something's messing with your head.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


The Nimbus mechanics are notably different in that the defense is automatic and doesn't require the Mind arcanum.

Luminous Obscurity
Jan 10, 2007

"The instrument you know as a piano was once called a pianoforte, because it can play both loud and quiet notes."


Doresh posted:

I think they might just have a They Live situation going. Or they just felt that the newest splat in the WoDverse should make the second-newest splat a bit more special than the older ones.

Demons are revolutionaries. Beasts are institutionalized powers who co-opt revolutionary and progressive language to strengthen their brands. TBH them hating each other kinda works.

I Am Just a Box
Jul 20, 2011
I belong here. I contain only inanimate objects. Nothing is amiss.



Cythereal posted:

As written, everyone is affected by Disquiet, supernatural or no.

There's a spoiler for the Beast writeup waiting here.

The Demon Storyteller's Guide (otherwise mostly a pretty good book) also decided to take the Disquiet in an odd direction that I probably wouldn't have gone with myself, given the nature of Disquiet: it affects their Cover identities, but not the demon itself. The demon can choose how to act as their Cover as normal, but they risk a compromise of Cover if they don't act like somebody suffering Disquiet. I'm not sure how the demon is supposed to experience this prompt of "you don't actually feel this but you spontaneously intuit that you're supposed to act like you do," similarly to how I don't understand how a demon meeting a Beast is supposed to experience spontaneously gaining blackmail leverage over them.

Vampires and werewolves, meanwhile, don't suffer the normal effects of Disquiet, but it does make them uncomfortable, antsy and more prone to frenzy/Death Rage.

I don't think there's a character splat that's defined as categorically unfriendly to other splats in the CofD, unless you count hunters. Prometheans drive people away involuntarily, and demons keep secrets and don't reveal themselves easily, but neither of them default to being hostile by temperament. Maybe werewolves, but that's more because they're territorial than hostile; a werewolf is as likely to stare down another werewolf from a rival pack as she is a vampire, and if another monster ends up pledging their support to the pack they'll probably stick just as loyally to them as to a fellow werewolf.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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Werewolf: the Forsaken, Second Edition

The Ghost Wolves (First Tongue: Thihirtha Numea) are...well, the wolves who don't join a tribe. They lack purpose. They wander in the dark, they kill what is in their way, but they have no clear idea of what they should be doing. They are not a tribe at all, but those who reject the tribes. Many are just ignorant - the Uratha can't be everywhere, and sometimes a werewolf goes through the First Change but is not found after. Others want to deny their nature and cling to their humanity, or find nothing to relate to in the Forsaken or Pure tribes. Ghost Wolves generally are not respected much by the Forsaken. After all, they turn their back on their ancestral duty. Those who do uphold their legacy and just don't feel they fit into any one tribe are slightly more respected. They often join mutli-tribe packs are packs of likeminded Ghost Wolves. However, lacking the support structure of knowing their tribemates means they often have a disadvantage in making alliances - though many see that as fair trade for total freedom.


I am a furry killing machine, please ignore my combover.

Ghost Wolves, lacking a tribe, have no Firstborn patron. Most are fine with that. Others form lodges to achieve some sort of spiritual support, and there are stories of Ghost Wolf packs heading into deep Shadow in search of a lost Firstborn, hoping to make it totem to a sixth tribe. So far, no such hunt has succeeded, but it is not impossible. Ghost Wolves have no special sacred prey - they hunt whatever they want to. Often their hunts are instinctive and driven by simple desires, sometimes even choosing their prey in the blind madness of Kuruth. Others attempt to deny the raging instincts within...but that never works for long.

Ghost Wolves are also called the Unbound, the Lost Pups, or the nuzusul - an insulting First Tongue term when applied to any but newly changed werewolves, whom it refers to literally. Ghost Wolves have no special Gift affinities nor Tribal Renown, and so begin play weaker than werewolves in a tribe. They are strictly worse.

Stereotypes posted:

Blood Talons: I've seen this Band of Brothers poo poo before. Didn't buy it in Afghanistan, not buying it now.
Bone Shadows: Did you miss the part where deals with the Devil always gently caress you?
Hunters in Darkness: You're psychotic.
Iron Masters: If anybody but me is sane here, it might be you.
Storm Lords: Alpha-male macho bullshit? Pass.
The Pure: No, I take it back. These guys are psychotic.
Vampires: Sure, why not? Wouldn't be the craziest thing I've heard.
Wolf-Blooded: Nobody gives you poo poo for not joining a crazy wolf-cult.



Next time: Lodges

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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The first Werewolf 2e supplement, The Pack, talks about how each kind of supernatural being can end up joining a werewolf pack, and the difficulties they're likely to run into if they want to do so.

NutritiousSnack
Jul 12, 2011


Simian_Prime posted:

He works better as one of the Strix from Requiem.

Beyond all the creepy stuff, for me Beast's big sin is it's misleading premise. The pitch leads you into thinking that you're playing some kind of mythic monster in the modern day, like a hydra or minotaur.

But instead you're playing a cultist who sacrificed his soul to an evil goddess, for powers fueled by abuse. It'd be like a Call of Cthulhu game where you played the insane servants of the Old Ones, and the Investigators were cast as bigots trying to oppress your religious freedom.

Beast literally is the dude shouting at Hitler while he goes "wow, I just want to murder all the Jews. Looks like you got to learn buddy"

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

"Send in Boxbot!"



NutritiousSnack posted:

Beast literally is the dude shouting at Hitler while he goes "wow, I just want to murder all the Jews. Looks like you got to learn buddy"

You mean that comic with the dude shouting at Hitler, right? Because I'm pretty sure the dude himself is a Hunter and it's fairly obvious who Reasonable Hitler is in this context.

Zereth
Jul 8, 2003




Draxion posted:

It's Demons, and they absolutely hate Beasts. As far as I know the game never says exactly why other than that they come from different sources of power, but while they don't really need to or usually want to Demons can get along with other splats just fine. They just don't like Beasts on instinct.
Maybe it's because they aren't affected by Beast's Poochie Field telling them "HEY I'M COOL".

I mean that sarcastically but that might actually be the intended reason: They're not normal humans so they aren't ignored by the effect, but they're also not related to the Primodial Dream at all (not that I think most of the other splats SHOULD be but Beast claims they are) so it's like a nails on a chalkboard thing for them, except it's a person.

I Am Just a Box posted:

a demon meeting a Beast is supposed to experience spontaneously gaining blackmail leverage over them.
Oh right I'd forgotten about that. Probably because it doesn't actually make any sense. NEVER MIND THEN \_(ツ)_/

Kellsterik
Mar 30, 2012


I love everything about the Ghost Wolves. The art, the stereotypes, the whole idea of being an outsider to this elaborate mythic culture and purpose. I'm really pleased that there's an in-character voice saying of the Tribes "you are out of your loving minds," that quote was my exact reaction to the Storm Lords.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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Werewolf: the Forsaken, Second Edition

Lodges are somewhere between pack and tribe in terms of social importance to a werewolf. They honor lesser aspects of Forsaken society. They may form around an auspice, a tribe or just a common ethos. Some focus on some particular aspect of a tribe's oath or sacred prey - the Storm Lords, for example, have the Lodge of Thunder, who believe only the mightiest werewolves are worthy to lead. Others take a broader view - the Iron Masters have the Lodge of Wires, who focus on understanding the spirits born of the information revolution. While lodges are smaller than tribes, they tend to have a wider social net. A Blood Talon probably knows most of the other Blood Talons in the state and sees them at moots. However, they probably know every other member of their lodge in America, and even beyond, thanks to the internet. Lodge members are more likely to keep in touch, you see.

The Lodge of the Einherjar tackle a basic problem: werewolves are secret and their lives dangerous, so it's not really surprising that many packs are lost in battle. The Blood Talons want people to remember them...and so the Lodge of the Einherjar was formed. They're based in northern Colorado, and they devote themselves to finding the stories of the 'lost packs' and sharing them with the rest of the Uratha. They use a mix of Insight Gifts, spirit bargaining and detective work to hunt down the forgotten tales of the glorious dead. They don't limit themselves to Blood Talon packs, either - everyone deserves to be remembered. Even if other tribes don't fully appreciate the Glory inherent to a dying stand, they value the Einherjar for relaying the news. Of course, not all of what they uncover is glorious...but tales of cowardice and betrayal must be told, too.

The Lodge of the Hundred Days is born of Rwanda. One hundred days from April to mid-July, 1994. 800,000 people died, nearyl 20% of the Rwandan population, and nearly 70% of the minority Tutsi. The killings were highly organized, planned by the leite Hutu-majority government, and mostlyk illed woman, children and noncombatants. The actions of the physical world ripple into Shadow, and the Rwandan Genocide produced enough spiritual evil to poison the Shadow many times over. The Lodge of the Hundred Days workes endlessly to draw out that poison, binding and destroying the pain, death and terror-spirits grown fat on the Essence of atrocity, laying to rest the ghosts of victims and perpetrators and hunting down the darker, weirder things that came out of the dark in the wake of the genocide. They cleanse the Wounsd formed in the hundred dies and reunite families torn apart by the chaos. It's been 20 years, and they're making progress, but there's a lot left to do.

The Lodge of the Hook Hand are Hunters in Darkness, finding their calling in their tribal oath. They started in rural West Virginia and have spread through the South, seeing the narrative of protecting territory as part of an older story - the kind that warns kids away from strangers or straying from the path. They find local legends and folklore, stories of killer ghosts and psychos, and then use those stories to their own ends. Withg a mix of Gifts, rumors and murder, they add useful details to the legends - Old Bill can't smell you if you hide in a pine tree, the Coulee Ridge Cannibal won't return to the cabin he ate his family in. You know the deal. Now, this is all total bullshit. What it actually does do is give the Lodge more tools. Kids hide from the Coulee Ridge Cannibal - and so they run into the waiting jaws of the pack in the cabin. People carry shards of glass to avoid the Nursery Girl ghost and think they are safe. Everyone knows if you don't leave fresh meat for Bloody Bones he'll drag you to hell - and so there's always food ready for a wounded Uratha. The Hook Hands seed their legends across the American South, making the nights just a little darker and more fearful - and so they make the hunt easier.

The Lodge of the Shield is primarily Iron Masters - and exclusively law enforcement. A badge gets you into a lot of places and a lot of information. The idealistic even like to use the idea of community policing as an example of honoring their territory in all things. The Lodge of the Shield is primarily a support network for its members. It was originally just an informal network of a dozen or so LAPD Iron Masters in the 50s, but has since spread to other state, local and even federal agencies. They help explain why you abandoned your patrol to hunt down a Ridden, ensure your unorthodox tactics go unquestioned, and so on. Technically, any tribe can join, but so far, almost all of them are Iron Masters. Since the late 80s, the Wolf-Blooded members have outnumbered the actual Uratha, and they are notable for the fact that Wolf-Blooded can outrank werewolves within the Lodge.

The Lodge of the Roman Ritual are exprcists. They are Storm Lordss that claim an ancient tradition, but the truth is that they, like most 'exorcists,' were inspired by Max Von Sydow in the 70s. They use a mix of Catholic ritual and Uratha animism to 'hunt' their sacred prey via forcible extraction of spirits from those they ride. All members of the lodge are ordained priests authorized to perform exorcism. They operate out of dioceses around the world, but their heart is in Rome. Lay brethren, as they name their Wolf-Blooded members, also operate hospices to treat the spiritual and physical scars of possession. In most of the world in which the Catholic Church has a major presence, odds are at least one Storm Lord knows a number to get a lodge member in if needed. It doesn't get used much - Storm Lords often see asking for help as violating their tribal oath - but when the prey's your son, your brother or your friend...well, it can be tempting.

The Eaters of the Dead (First Tongue: Ki Anagh) are Ghost Wolves, but not ignorant ones that hide behind human faces. They seek a different truth. They are led by a Mongolian Rahu by the name of Dorj Tserendjav, who beleives that somewhere in Central Asia's Shadow is the lair of a forgotten Firstborn - Isim-Ur, Ravening Wolf. If he can bind her as a totem, the Eaters of hte Dead will become a sixth tribe. Usim-Ur consumes, and in consuming, she gains the knowledge and power of her prey. Tserendjav has no evidence she even exists, but his core of followers believe. Despite their lack of totem, Tserendjav has made them swear a tribal oath: Leave no kill to rot. They don't literally eat all they hunt - especially not humans - but are obliged to make as much use of every kill as they can. They claim the hungry dead as their sacred prey - vampires and so on. As Isim-Ur consumes prey for power, so vampires steal power from the living.

The Lodge of the Chronicle exclusively accepts Cahalith as members. It is more than 700 years old, and while its origin is fantastic, many of its members believe it. The story goes that a young Cahalith joined a Sacred Hunt that ranged across an entire continent, chasing down a disease-spirit - perhaps an idigam, though the lodge denies it - that as potent enough to destroy entire human populations. It spawned Claimed, Hosts, hundreds of minor spirits, and even traitor Uratha that preferred to live deformed than die sick. By the time the hunt was over and the battle won, dozens of werewolves lay dead and the lore and history of two generations was almost lost. The founder, horrified, decided this must never happen again - and so the Lodge of the Chronicle was born. Their patron is the spirit Crying Owl, and their numbers have grown over time. They seek to preserve the history and knowledge of the Uratha, and members often display perfect recall and an amazing understanding of history. However, they also have an unfortunate tendency to become lost in stories and be easily manipulated.

The Lodge of the Gargoyles only takes Irraka, and barely exists outside New England. Formed by a werewolf who lost a leg fighting an Azlu, they train Irraka in the art of attack from above. They favor long-range weapons like bows or rifles, sniping prey silently and effectively. Many also practice free-running, letting them cross a city by rooftop. Their patron is Black Rat, and the story the lodge founder tells is that she was on the hunt and found herself aiming from atop a gargoyle. The prey was about to break her line of sight with a door, but then a huge black rat came from the shadows and startled him, allowing her to take him out with one shot. She found the rat after, and saw that it, like her, was missing a hind leg. And so the lodge was born. They train members in acrobatics, parkour and use of gravity and height to your advantage. Rumor has it that they cannot be killed by any fall...and darker rumor claims that Black Rat demands sacrifice in flesh after a certain amount of kills, and that the founder had both legs when she met the rat.

Lodges have no mechanical weight in the core; that waited until the Pack supplement.

Next time: Chapter 2, in which we define terms

DigitalRaven
Oct 9, 2012

When I kill you with a motor-car, you should have the common decency to stay dead, you horrid little object




Kellsterik posted:

I love everything about the Ghost Wolves. The art, the stereotypes, the whole idea of being an outsider to this elaborate mythic culture and purpose. I'm really pleased that there's an in-character voice saying of the Tribes "you are out of your loving minds," that quote was my exact reaction to the Storm Lords.

The Ghost Wolf sig character's art note is "Timothy Spall on a bad day, maybe with some bloodstains".

Roland Jones
Aug 18, 2011

by Nyc_Tattoo


I Am Just a Box posted:

There's a spoiler for the Beast writeup waiting here.

The Demon Storyteller's Guide (otherwise mostly a pretty good book) also decided to take the Disquiet in an odd direction that I probably wouldn't have gone with myself, given the nature of Disquiet: it affects their Cover identities, but not the demon itself. The demon can choose how to act as their Cover as normal, but they risk a compromise of Cover if they don't act like somebody suffering Disquiet. I'm not sure how the demon is supposed to experience this prompt of "you don't actually feel this but you spontaneously intuit that you're supposed to act like you do," similarly to how I don't understand how a demon meeting a Beast is supposed to experience spontaneously gaining blackmail leverage over them.

I think the idea is that Demons, being machines, wouldn't feel the "wrongness" of Disquiet the way flesh-and-blood things do; whereas all the other splats, supernatural-ness aside, are or were flesh-and-blood at one point, Demons were created by the God Machine and the Azoth animation or whatever causes Disquiet isn't something that resonates with them. However, at the same time they're posing as humans, who should be affected by it, so not being affected is a sign they're not human.

The issue is, as you say, how these two things interact. Though, the alternative is that the Demons can break their Cover without knowing why because they didn't know enough about the Promethean they're dealing with or whatever, which isn't fun for the players, even if it arguably makes more sense. Or they could make Demons affected by Disquiet directly, but, that's odd too. (Or just have them not be affected at all I guess; only the Prometheans and those familiar with them would be able to tell that the Demons not freaking out is wrong, so.)

Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 00:19 on May 29, 2016

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

Luminous Obscurity posted:

Demons are revolutionaries. Beasts are institutionalized powers who co-opt revolutionary and progressive language to strengthen their brands. TBH them hating each other kinda works.
Beasts are a MRA's paranoid fantasy of what a social justice warrior is actually like, complete with a baseball bat reading DIE CIS SCUM. That this doesn't resonate with anything in the real world (that isn't hosed up and crazy) is part of the problem.

NutritiousSnack posted:

Beast literally is the dude shouting at Hitler while he goes "wow, I just want to murder all the Jews. Looks like you got to learn buddy"
I thought of that too.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
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Werewolf: the Forsaken, Second Edition

Werewolves, on a fundamental level, are not human - physically or psychologically. A werewolf, when they possess something, instinctively feel they must be strong enough to keep it. They are born to hunt and kill. Physically, they change shape, heal at an amazing rate, can step into the spirit world and can use powers based on the power being literally ripped into their soul. You know, just for a few tricks. All of their forms are optimized for use in hunting, and the hunt almost always ends in a kill. Werewolves are not human.

For most, the First Change - the first time they change form - is a defining moment in their lives. It is the first time they see the world as it truly is. Their senses go into overdrive, able to see and hear things far beyond the human senses they once had. They instinctively begin to view humans not as friends, but either threats or prey. They begin to learn that the spirit world exists, entirely apart from the world of flesh. And yet, all this pales against their body's rebellion. Before the First Chgange, the nuzusul - the werewolf about to Change - may believe they are going mad. Depending on their auspice, they may catch glimpsed of Shadow or spirits, may begin to hear or smell things outside their experience. They may be followed by strange, intimidating figures, may see bizarre gremlins in the corner of their eye. These things start small, infrequent. The closer the Change gets, the more common they become. The changes torment them, until they reach a breaking point. They either go mad...or they Change.

The stereotypical First Change is an unleashing of rage and fury, a whirlwind of killing claws and fangs. It is fairly common that this is the case, but there are other First Change experiences, too. None are more 'correct' than others, and in some way, each event is unique and defining. The phase of the moon it occurs under has a profound effect - it determines your Auspice, and that affects your Change more than anything else.

Werewolves and spirits share an ancient proto-language - Uremehir, the First Tongue. Legend holds that humans, spirits and werewolves all spoke it prior to the breaking of Pangaea, as the werewolves name the world before the Gauntlet formed. Immediately after the First Change, all werewolves can understand the First Tongue, at least enough to get the gist of any message. Another werewolf can teach full fluency easily - or a spirit can, for the right price. While spirits and werewolves speak different dialects (due to the fact that werewolves have, among other things, vocal cords), they can understand each other perfectly. For Uratha, however, communication differs by form. Hishu form - that is, human - can speak any human language you know, and can very roughly speak the First Tongue. Dalu and Gauru forms speak the First Tongue more fluently, while Urshul form can speak it roughly again. Urhan form cannot speak the First Tongue at all. However, both Urshul and Urhan forms can speak to wolves via body language and vocalization. (Fun fact: First Tongue follows a rough logic. Most of its words are vaguely related terms in Sumerian that are then backflowed through Grimm's Law. The more you know!)

Then we get a bunch of IC stories of the First Change. One woman cannot recall the actual act of the change, just that she got jumped by a group of men and then transformed and terrified them into running, swearing she would never herself be made afraid again. A boy went into a haunted house, got lost, and Changed. He ran into his friends and accidentally attack them in his fury. It is unclear whether they survived, and he never wants to hurt his friends again. A man goes to a bunch of parties, meets a woman he thinks is hot, and suddenly enters sensory overload, Changing rapidly through each form, then massacring the party in Gauru form. He keeps a piece of the woman's dress to remind himself to maintain control. Another man begins hearing whispers from all the objects around him, gets attacked by a spirit and Changes, driving it off. A pack finds him and teaches him not to kill himself over the whispering of spirits. A final man realizes he's planning how to kill everyone around him, even his friends. He leaves, finds a man attacking a woman, then Changes and kills the man, only to find the woman is also a werewolf and that he hosed up a sting operation.

When humans get hurt, they need medical attention. Werewolves do not. A normal human takes days at the least to recover from injury. Werewolves take hours at worst for the same one. However, this healing is neither pretty nor painless. Their regeneration doesn't care about looks - just fixing the body. Broken bones will shove through skin as they knit back together. Torn skin reaches for itself as it heals, and healed injuries are white and pale for only moments as the body replenishes missing blood. The exception is when a werewolf spends Essence to heal. Instead of feeling the body put itself back together, the werewolf instead feels only a refreshing chill, which can be addictive in the same way as a morphine high. Because of these capabilities, newly Changed werewolves often feel invulnerable - and against humans, they aren't really wrong. Even a weak werewolf can, with Essence, go from the brink of death to fully healed in 30 seconds or so.

Hishu is the form that werewolves often feel most comfortable in. It's human shape, after all. To others, though, it's just another hunting tool. In Hishu, a werewolf hides amongst humanity. Efforts to find them or pick them out as supernatural fail, even supernatural efforts. Dalu is for when you want to hunt in human society and not draw too much attention. You use it to finish a fight or intimidate people - it's basically a big, muscular, hairy form. Gauru is your archetypal werewolf form. It ends a hunt, making the kill. It is a massive wolf-monster, shattering bone with its jaws and practically immune to pain. Gauru form, for most werewolves, feels right, natural. It completes them. Urshul is a massive wolf, used to harry foes before the kill. Its huge jaws are nearly as powerful as the killing form's, perfect for tearing flesh. It's most often used against larger prey, to weaken it and wear it down. Urhan is the wolf shape, perfect camouflauge. It cannot be told from a true wolf, avoiding attention in wild places, and it has incredible endurance when running.

Werewolf senses are also vastly more potent than humans, and they get much more sensory input. Human experience is unable to comprehend it. Wolf forms grant them the power to smell prey, to hear it coming, to chase it for miles without tiring. And more than that, they notice why humans are 'prey'. Most humans are complacent, blind to threats. They think they're safe. They have no overt predators, so they live without fear of predation. While not all werewolves hunt humans, and certainly no werewolf hunts all humans, the Uratha can't help but notice prey behavior. People notice violence and shy away from it, keeping together in herds for protection. Werewolf instincts can't help but respond to it. The fact that these cues are often caused by a werewolf's presence just exacerbates the problem. And of course, the senses can't be turned off. They're always there. You can always smell the delicious meat, the sweat, the fear. You notice the nervous tics, the desire to flee. An Uratha can eventually discover just about anything their prey would want to hide, any clues to their behavior. But they can never go back to being human.

Next time: Packs

Count Chocula
Dec 25, 2011

WE HAVE TO CONTROL OUR ENVIRONMENT
IF YOU SEE ME POSTING OUTSIDE OF THE AUSPOL THREAD PLEASE TELL ME THAT I'M MISSED AND TO START POSTING AGAIN


I never got why werewolves had 5 forms instead of just Human, Wolf, and Giant Wolf-Monster. But it is the WoD line that makes the least sense to me in general.

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Luminous Obscurity
Jan 10, 2007

"The instrument you know as a piano was once called a pianoforte, because it can play both loud and quiet notes."


Count Chocula posted:

I never got why werewolves had 5 forms instead of just Human, Wolf, and Giant Wolf-Monster. But it is the WoD line that makes the least sense to me in general.

Lon Chaney werewolves and the big direwolf werewolves

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