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Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Kurieg posted:

They predate the minions by a ludicrously large margin.


Also I've got the next bit of Beast almost finished, the number of times that "Beasts most strongly resonate with <ANTAGONIST SPLAT>" comes up in the writeups about crossovers is honestly absurd. Except in the case of Mummies, since I'm not 100% sure which of the vomit of proper nouns is supposed to be the Antagonist splat.

Don't Beasts explicitly love the True Fae, the monsters who are a direct allegory for terrible abuse and human trafficking and that kind of thing? The source of the trauma the Changelings are all trying to live with?

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Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


Daeren posted:

The Deceived, Amkhata, or the Lifeless/Shuankhsen are Mummy's Designated Bad Guys.
Apparently Beast feeding can also gently caress up the Lifeweb and this is a capital B Bad thing?

Night10194 posted:

Don't Beasts explicitly love the True Fae, the monsters who are a direct allegory for terrible abuse and human trafficking and that kind of thing? The source of the trauma the Changelings are all trying to live with?
Beasts also warp the hedge as if they have Wyrd equal to their Lair Rating.

Seriously the changeling section of the next bit can just be replaced with :siren: 300 times.

Kurieg fucked around with this message at 05:52 on Oct 13, 2016

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Kurieg posted:

Apparently Beast feeding can also gently caress up the Lifeweb and this is a capital B Bad thing?

Beasts also warp the hedge as if they have Wyrd equal to their Lair Rating.

Seriously the changeling section of the next bit can just be replaced with :siren: 300 times.

I don't actually know what those proper nouns mean directly but I'm going to assume it means Beasts are about as bad as those goddamn monsters.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


Wyrd is a Changeling's power stat, if it gets to high they risk turning into one of the Gentry. The hedge is the weird fucky other-place that the Gentry are from, and being able to control it is explicitly their domain. And apparently there are pathways from the primordial dream straight into the Hedge.



Also: if a Beast somehow manages to find their way into the spirit world they turn into a maximum strength essence font of hunger and suffering.

I Am Just a Box
Jul 20, 2011
I belong here. I contain only inanimate objects. Nothing is amiss.



Kurieg posted:

Apparently Beast feeding can also gently caress up the Lifeweb and this is a capital B Bad thing?

The Lifeweb is one of a million things in Mummy that gets a proper noun and a couple pages of description but never really ends up being very relevant or important. But Beasts also remind mummies of amkhata (mindless eaters of life-force), the Shuankhsen (hollow, miserable mummies that harrow the PC mummies and also eat life-force), and the Devourer (Mummy Satan, or more properly, their mythology's cosmic force of doom and destruction).

Kurieg posted:

Wyrd is a Changeling's power stat, if it gets to high they risk turning into one of the Gentry. The hedge is the weird fucky other-place that the Gentry are from, and being able to control it is explicitly their domain. And apparently there are pathways from the primordial dream straight into the Hedge.

It's not exclusively the Keepers' to do, changelings can do it too, it's their mechanics to warp the Hedge that Beasts are glomming onto and saying "me too" about. It's just gratuitous, though, that they get to do this side benefit that doesn't come up often, and do it just as well as a changeling could, despite their only relevance to the Hedge being that they're kinda-sorta dreamworld monsters and 2e Changeling is relating dreams to the role of the Hedge a bit.

potatocubed
Jul 26, 2012

*rathian noises*


loving up the Lifeweb is capital-B Bad because it's one of the best ways to wake up a Memory 0/Sekhem 10 mummy, and that generally spells disaster for you and everyone near you.

I'd love to see a Beast try the 'no worries, I'm your friend!' thing on a mindless automaton that only speaks Ancient Irem, has physical stats as high as they go, and can summon meteor strikes. It's no 'rip the disguise off a Demon' but it'd probably still be good for a laugh.

Comrade Koba
Jul 2, 2007



Horrible Lurkbeast posted:

Who was it that coined the term 'Cogservatism'?

That was me. :eng101:

I think what bothers me the most is that, as was already posted, steampunk doesn't necessarily have to be Eurocentric Aristocrat Action Hour. There's every possibility of actually making something cool and interesting, like the idea of playing Indian sepoys or Chinese boxers using steam-tech to fight Imperialist aggression.

Yet, every single time you get essentially the same drat thing: some variation of the zany pulp adventures of Viscount Archibald Steamington-Smythe against the savages from the Dark Continent.

ZeroCount
Aug 12, 2013




The Modrons are all certified cuties and they're one of the things that have remained unique to D&D. A lot of the D&D outsiders are pretty generic (angels, devils, demons) but modrons are as far out as you get.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



And then they were mostly replaced by the Formians as the signature race of Mechanus because someone at Wizards hates fun.

Moonwolf
Jun 29, 2004

Flee from th' terrifyin' evil of "NHS"!




Well during Planescape the Formians were all off in the LN(G) plane of Arcadia because the Harmonium are pillocks. They were on Mechanus too though.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


The Harmonium are Pillocks is like, their entire thing.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


The key to the Harmonium is that their ethos works pretty well on the Prime Material (never you mind the cost) but will most likely never function on the Great Ring. And, of course, they're completely unable to recognize that fact, which is where their tragedy lies.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

Mummy seems pretty cool; somebody should cover it!

Hostile V
May 30, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.



They already did, hence all the bandages and balms and poo poo.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
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2014-2018



Halloween Jack posted:

Mummy seems pretty cool; somebody should cover it!

Sadly, it's really not. It's an nWoD game that really, really wants to be an oWoD game.

Kellsterik
Mar 30, 2012


I have a special place in my heart for Mummy, the writing is fantastic especially in the supplements, I've even run it a few times, but it is not a well-designed game. The Lifeweb is a great example. I remember reading that PDF front to back trying to figure out what this system actually did. Does this interact with the dice or character traits at any point? No? Okay.

It's also a little prickly because it was one of the very last releases before they started transitioning to the ruleset that became 2nd Edition, and it happens to lean really hard into some systems that are unique to 1st Edition, like Derangements and the predefined list of Virtues/Vices.

e: it also has one of my favorite underwhelming uses of a supernatural setting. There's a pre-written adventure in one of the supplements that involves a literal Mummy Convention at a conference hotel in DC, complete with check-in and baggage handling.

Kellsterik fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Oct 13, 2016

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

I had heard that Mummy: The Curse has too many special traits and fiddly mechanics for PCs to juggle, which...well, I expected them to notice that that was a big problem with oWoD Mummy and take steps to deal with it. That was the worst part of old Mummy, a lot of traits to deal with for characters who were not actually very powerful in any kind of straight-up confrontation. (I'm referring to the first and second Mummy books, I pretty much hated the entire concept of Mummy: The Resurrection and didn't buy it.)

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


One of my players bought me Jadeclaw and the Book of Mysteries (extra magic/religion stuff for Ironclaw) for my birthday. After I finish the core book, I will move on to them.

I have to say I'm not quite as impressed with either as with the core book, though. The design for the mechanical side isn't quite as tight in its desire to have tons of additional stuff, and the gift trees and things suffer some bloat. In the core book, most things only require a few Gifts to unlock their pre-requisites and lots of Cornerstone Gifts lead to a ton of various sub-Gifts to let you diversify. In Jadeclaw, many of the Martial Arts styles and things require like 5-8 Gifts from all over the place to pick up and I don't quite like that decision, especially as it will heavily limit starting PCs.

Also, snake people with no hands? What the hell is with that.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


Mummy: the Curse is "the whole is less then the sum of its parts". It has a variety of interesting ideas that don't really come together to make a compelling game.

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015


Kellsterik posted:

e: it also has one of my favorite underwhelming uses of a supernatural setting. There's a pre-written adventure in one of the supplements that involves a literal Mummy Convention at a conference hotel in DC, complete with check-in and baggage handling.

Now that, my friend, is storytelling. I now feel inspired to write a Werewolf adventure about buying groceries, or a Vampire adventure about tax write offs.

(And whas this convention called MummyCon by any chance?)

Night10194 posted:

Also, snake people with no hands? What the hell is with that.

Who doesn't want to be a Wuxia-version of Sir Hiss?

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


I also picked up Myriad Song because I really like the Cardinal System and a game about prog rock space opera with that system sounded good to me, but I don't review anything I haven't actually had a chance to run/play.

I mean, my personal project at the moment is converting Feng Shui to Cardinal because I believe it actually works a lot better for dramatic action than Feng Shui's own system(s), so studying the output in the system widely (including the one game that uses it that has modern action movie firearms) is very helpful.

MollyMetroid
Jan 20, 2004

Trout Clan Daimyo


I really wanna hear more about Myriad Song.

Cannibal Smiley
Feb 20, 2013


MollyMetroid posted:

I really wanna hear more about Myriad Song.

It's kind of like animated series that nobody ever made.

https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/16/16075.phtml

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

Night10194 posted:

Also, snake people with no hands? What the hell is with that.
Better than tiger-men with no hands.

BinaryDoubts
Jun 6, 2013

Looking at it now, it really is disgusting. The flesh is transparent. From the start, I had no idea if it would even make a clapping sound. So I diligently reproduced everything about human hands, the bones, joints, and muscles, and then made them slap each other pretty hard.


I always thought kobolds were little rat-guys and modrons were lizard/dragon-men.

I have no idea where this came from, aside from only learning about D&D through osmosis rather than actually playing it.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


MollyMetroid posted:

I really wanna hear more about Myriad Song.

Myriad Song is really weird and like that review says, its setting isn't firm and it has a hell of a lot of openness to it, but to me that isn't really a problem. I'd be using it to run a ridiculous new wave sci-fi game of my own invention anyway; I often feel more comfortable with looser settings as is.

Also, what's really funny is reading those reviewers call a lot of the system really 'new and innovative' when stuff like having a Species and Career as stats and all has been in since IC1e (I say this as someone who has run/played a LOT of Sanguine's output, since mechanically they're my favorite published developer). They should be glad they never dealt with IC1e's bonus and penalty system; that was a loving nightmare and a big reason they made a 2e.

Night10194 fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Oct 13, 2016

MollyMetroid
Jan 20, 2004

Trout Clan Daimyo


I mean, I've read that review (several times now) but still don't feel like I really know as much as I'd like to.

Daeren
Aug 17, 2009

YER MUSTACHE IS CROOKED


I am one of the only people who goes to bat for Mummy in the Onyx Path thread here, and that's how it should be.

Mummy is not a good game. It is an interesting game, and certainly not a terrible one, but it isn't good. The best way to describe it is that the core is for a game about a third of the way done clawing itself forward from Revised-era oWoD, and the supplements to date have gotten it maybe about another third of the way out. You need a particularly high tolerance for that style of game, and writing, to deal with Mummy's books, as it is badly laid out, scattered with little mechanics instantly forgotten once mentioned, and married at the hip to a backstory and metaplot drip-fed across supplements. Just Like Old Times.

The stuff it does do well are things none of the other lines even do at all, but is also often the stuff that makes it hard to wrap your brain around running or playing it.

I might actually do a review of the line, after years dormant in this thread. I was considering coming back with Beast, but that got taken, and Leviathan, but they're in the middle of compiling all their second edition drafts so I'll give them until that's done. Mummy certainly has enough to talk about in the terrible ideas department and "this is actually sick as poo poo" department.

After all, what other World of Darkness game lets you play as The Nameless One on a quest of self-discovery, while also punching Nazi looters in the mouth when they bungle on your secret lair after being led there by your Mumm-Ra lookin' nemesis from across the ages?

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


MollyMetroid posted:

I mean, I've read that review (several times now) but still don't feel like I really know as much as I'd like to.

I honestly don't know what the hell Myriad Song is about besides that it was pitched to me as being a lot like Guardians of the Galaxy and I really wanted to see a Cardinal System game's take on guns and magitek for inspiration for converting action movie firearms and Arcanowave Tech from FS into the rules system (It was already pretty easy to do stuff like kung fu). I'm not actually sure I'll ever end up using MS itself, but at least the firearms rules and stuff are nice and abstracted and will do just fine for hong kong gunplay for me.

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015


BinaryDoubts posted:

I always thought kobolds were little rat-guys and modrons were lizard/dragon-men.

I have no idea where this came from, aside from only learning about D&D through osmosis rather than actually playing it.

It's extra confusing for German players, as a "Kobold" is essentially a German leprechaun/gnome who has nothing whatsoever to do with its D&D incarnations. Aside from being humanoid, I guess.

Daeren posted:

I might actually do a review of the line, after years dormant in this thread. I was considering coming back with Beast, but that got taken, and Leviathan, but they're in the middle of compiling all their second edition drafts so I'll give them until that's done. Mummy certainly has enough to talk about in the terrible ideas department and "this is actually sick as poo poo" department.

Hows Princess 2e doing? I really want to hear their snarky bullshit about Beasts.

Chernobyl Peace Prize
May 7, 2007

Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.



Daeren posted:

I might actually do a review of the line, after years dormant in this thread. I was considering coming back with Beast, but that got taken, and Leviathan, but they're in the middle of compiling all their second edition drafts so I'll give them until that's done. Mummy certainly has enough to talk about in the terrible ideas department and "this is actually sick as poo poo" department.
Doooo iiiiit, I want to read someone else's thoughts on the downward power arc and the Ars Magica style recommended party comp (1 special person, buncha grunts).

Daeren
Aug 17, 2009

YER MUSTACHE IS CROOKED


Doresh posted:

Hows Princess 2e doing? I really want to hear their snarky bullshit about Beasts.

I don't know and I don't really care. Leviathan only had my attention because it's a niche that makes sense to fill and had a few decent ideas buried in it. Princess, from memory, doesn't even manage to be funny awful, just a beige sort of generic fanfiction brand awful where you hope that most of the authors involved are teenagers that'll be vaguely embarrassed about the whole thing a few years from now.

(but they probably totally arent and they're all 20-30somethings that think Sailor Nothing is an artistic triumph)

E:

Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:

Doooo iiiiit, I want to read someone else's thoughts on the downward power arc and the Ars Magica style recommended party comp (1 special person, buncha grunts).

Both of which I have fond feelings for but understand people's gripes with, especially as the Ars Magica comp doesn't actually have all that much support.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

I have to admit, "veteran of Exalted mechanics" and specifically "variable TNs" really scares me off of it. White Wolf developers seem to just make messes when they mess around with their core mechanics, and of course they have a reputation for being disdainful when their mistakes are pointed out.

BinaryDoubts posted:

I always thought kobolds were little rat-guys and modrons were lizard/dragon-men.

I have no idea where this came from, aside from only learning about D&D through osmosis rather than actually playing it.
Kobolds have a fuckin' weird history. In Chainmail, kobolds are literally never mentioned except in the phrase "Goblins and kobolds." Goblins and kobolds are treated as the same type of unit, have the same point cost, same alignment, same hatred for dwarves and gnomes, and so on. There is zero description of what a kobold is, so you could cut them entirely out of the book and it would make no difference. One wonders why Gary put "(and Kobolds)" next to Goblins all the time.

The split came when D&D split up into Advanced and Basic. In the AD&D Monster Manual, they were described as small humanoids with small horns and dark "hides." But they were described as egg-laying, and the art depicted them as having scaly skin and long tails, but horned doglike heads with large pointed ears. Basic D&D described them as "doglike" but with brown scaly skin and no hair. So by that point they were comparable to goblins in many ways, but not goblinoid, and definitely a strange blend of reptile and canine.

I first encountered kobolds in the NES port of Pool of Radiance, which depicted them as doglike and furry, kind of like little jackal-people.

Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Oct 13, 2016

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018



Daeren posted:

I don't know and I don't really care. Leviathan only had my attention because it's a niche that makes sense to fill and had a few decent ideas buried in it. Princess, from memory, doesn't even manage to be funny awful, just a beige sort of generic fanfiction brand awful where you hope that most of the authors involved are teenagers that'll be vaguely embarrassed about the whole thing a few years from now.

(but they probably totally arent and they're all 20-30somethings that think Sailor Nothing is an artistic triumph)

E:


Both of which I have fond feelings for but understand people's gripes with, especially as the Ars Magica comp doesn't actually have all that much support.

granted, Ars does it as 'one special person at a time, usually, but everyone has a special person'

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

Daeren posted:

Princess, from memory, doesn't even manage to be funny awful, just a beige sort of generic fanfiction brand awful where you hope that most of the authors involved are teenagers that'll be vaguely embarrassed about the whole thing a few years from now.
I'm pretty sure this is how SLA Industries got made. Which, at least, explains all the edgy names that don't signify anything about the characters to which they belong.

Rigged Death Trap
Feb 13, 2012

BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP



Halloween Jack posted:


I first encountered kobolds in the NES port of Pool of Radiance, which depicted them as doglike and furry, kind of like little jackal-people.

Jrpgs are pretty consistent in making kobolds furry beastmen.

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015


Daeren posted:

I don't know and I don't really care. Leviathan only had my attention because it's a niche that makes sense to fill and had a few decent ideas buried in it. Princess, from memory, doesn't even manage to be funny awful, just a beige sort of generic fanfiction brand awful where you hope that most of the authors involved are teenagers that'll be vaguely embarrassed about the whole thing a few years from now.

(but they probably totally arent and they're all 20-30somethings that think Sailor Nothing is an artistic triumph)

Sailor Nothing and Madoka. All magical girl RPGs shall be Madoka.

Leviathan definitely looks like the superios Beast. And I'm just trying to keep in touch with Princess since that's my rival product.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018



God, I hate Madoka.

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015


Mors Rattus posted:

God, I hate Madoka.

This calls for another sneak peek:

Mascot (1 to 5 dots)

(stuff about dots 1 through 4)

At 5 dots, the mascot is not only far more intelligent than you, but also convinced that he serves a higher purpose. He views himself as an angel, or a higher intelligence from another planet/galaxy/dimension. Just hit him on the head whenever he starts rambling about entropy or something, and you should be fine.
For whatever reason, this condition also allows him to respawn as much as he wants, so don't go easy on him.

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Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

To witness titanic events is always dangerous, usually painful, and often fatal.





It's funny how the deconstructive works have often caught on in the Western nerd landscape when the stuff that plays it relatively straight didn't. Like I guess a lot of it involved toy licensing deals, but Gundam and super robot shows didn't get over: Evangelion did. The magical girl merch train (save for Sailor Moon) didn't, but Madoka seized the brains of many a nerd.

Probably makes it all look way deeper than it actually is.

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