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Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.




Grimey Drawer

Nessus posted:

I imagine one of the ideas was that you would be the angels of a particular area which, especially in :911: would probably be seen to be fairly mono-lingual... though that was not true then, and is less true now. Is the Song of Tongues expensive or does anything other than letting you speak all the hew-mon tongues fluently?

Ultimately, it feels like a silly D&Dism to me. You're a celestial being, not one of those mortal chumps who got stomped at Babel. You may not want to draw attention to your being an ultimate polyglot, but having to spend resources on it just seems dumb.

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Simian_Prime
Nov 6, 2011

When they passed out body parts in the comics today, I got Cathy's nose and Dick Tracy's private parts.

Bieeardo posted:

Ultimately, it feels like a silly D&Dism to me. You're a celestial being, not one of those mortal chumps who got stomped at Babel. You may not want to draw attention to your being an ultimate polyglot, but having to spend resources on it just seems dumb.

Agreed. If you're playing a divine being, any language barrier between mortals should be hand-waved. It's like the rule in Feng Shui where you just assume everyone is speaking Cantonese.

(Though I guess in the case of In Nomine, they all speak French)

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015


Bieeardo posted:

Ultimately, it feels like a silly D&Dism to me. You're a celestial being, not one of those mortal chumps who got stomped at Babel. You may not want to draw attention to your being an ultimate polyglot, but having to spend resources on it just seems dumb.

I don't think there's much attention to be drawn if you just settle for English and whatever the locals are speaking.

Simian_Prime posted:

Agreed. If you're playing a divine being, any language barrier between mortals should be hand-waved. It's like the rule in Feng Shui where you just assume everyone is speaking Cantonese.

(Though I guess in the case of In Nomine, they all speak French)

French is Common, after all.

(Speaking of: Does anyone else find it weird how even the most supernatural and Eldritch critters around bother with learning the current trade language of those naked monkeys, instead of just relying on the polyglot / telepathy ability they all seem to have?)

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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Nessus posted:

I imagine one of the ideas was that you would be the angels of a particular area which, especially in :911: would probably be seen to be fairly mono-lingual... though that was not true then, and is less true now. Is the Song of Tongues expensive or does anything other than letting you speak all the hew-mon tongues fluently?

It's not expensive to learn, but Songs are not super reliable to roll, and the one that does languages only does languages.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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Superiors 3: Behold Your Destiny

The Corridor of Histories is a long hall containing everything on the history of the universe. Once you enter it, it is infinite - it goes on endlessly. The ends appear to be always in walking distance, but you can never reach them, until you find the volume you are looking for. At that point, you can leave through an arch that appears to have been there the whole time. Along the shelves is every written account, true or false, of celestial history. It covers everything - Eden, the Rebellion, the death of Raphael, all of it. The current Curator is Tirshatha, a Cherub and Friend of the Sages who has spent his entire existence in the Corridors.



The special Collection is a single room, deep in the Lbirary. It is the only room that is locked, and only Yves has the key. The Library actively tries to keep people away from it, but a really determined searcher might be able to find the door. Within the room are books of lore deemed too dangerous even for angels. Only Yves and a few other senior Archangels have ever entered the Collection. It contains, among others, the works of the Grigori, the Testament of Lucifer (which was written to justify the Rebellion) and the Book of Fate.

At any time, the Library is qwuite busy, full of angels of Destiny doing their work alongside various visitors doing research and blessed souls reading for pleasure. The most common angels are the Librarians, traditionally relievers or junior angels of Destiny in training, or occasionally an experienced angel doing penance or taking a break from Earth. They spend most of their work helping opthers find the books they're looking for and cataloging the endless shelves. Beneath the Librarians are the Scribes, generally blessed souls of former Soldiers of Destiny, trusted to document current affairs across the Symphony and track the reports of the angels of Destiny. Most are assigned to selected angels as chamberlains and assistants.









Angels of Yves, also known as the Shepherds, ensure that everything prospers from its destiny. They leave the flashy displays to other angels, preferring to work on a more personal level. Yves does not see himself as a general, but a guide and advisor. His Wordbound are arranged in cascading spheres of domains, but the angels do not see themselves as a rigid hierarchy. Rather, they work together and respect their elders.

To most angels of Destiny, the work is its own reward. Beyond tha,t the greatest gift Yves can give is knowledge. He tends to reward his angels with Rites and attunements, but occaisonally visions of the future, as well. He doesn't like to punish, but sometimes he must. The worst punishment for most Shepherds is to know they failed, and the anguish can sometimes lead them even to a Fall. When possible, Yves prefers to personally speak with an angel that needs punishment. If just a talk doesn't work, he'll just say 'I can't help you' and leave. The worst he ever does is Shunning. The Shunned are banished ot Earth until they realign themselves with Destiny. In sever cases, they are also stripped of their attunements. The Shunned, of course, are pariahs among angels of Destiny.



Serving Yves isn't easy, and it can be very taxing on the mind and spirit, knowing so much rests on you. Burnout is relatively common, and even after a vacation in the Library, some never recover and need to change Archangels. Most don't even have to ask. Yves either lets them go with clear conscience or gives them a chance to leave without hte shame of quitting. After all, whether they serve him directly or not, they are still ultimately serving Destiny.

To Yves, the Redeemed are perfect examples of Destiny's power. Every angel that returns to Heaven is a victory, and Yves has a large number of Redeemed and former Fallen in his ranks. In part this is due to his Redemption Squad, who help demons seek out Redemption. For the most part, the Redeemed serving Yves are focused and almost fanatical believers in Destiny. They are willing to sacrifice almost everything to further hte Word, and all he asks is they do what is best and try not to obsess over it.

At some level, all humans serve Destiny. Since the earliest days, humans have aided in the work - they spread religion, they tried to excplain the world around them. Sometimes, Yves feels closer to them than to angels. Humans are unpredictable, and htat's what makes them precious and beautiful. Yves has appeared to many humans, but few ever realized who they were meeting. He encouraged the formation of theocracies to help humans unlock their potential via belief, though after Islam and the Crusades, he realized that religion too easily lent itself to fanaticism and blindness, that only knowledge could free humanity from its fate. He left religion to other Archangels, focusing on learning as the Enlightenment began. In that period, he had many Soldiers. Soldiers of Yves are defined by their optimism. They strive for change, but they're realistic. They aren't trying to change the world, just how people relate to each other. Traditionally, they serve as community figures. Where the angels of Destiny are subtle, the Soldiers are open, leading families and neighbors a s preachers, principals, local cops and more. Saints are also central to Yves' organziation, icons of Destiny. Every Saint, after all, is a human that achieved their destiny.

Rumor has it that Yves does not create angels - they just manifest to serve the Symphony, and he only cares for and guides them. Some even say that God personally creates them. Yves is always careful to allow his angels to express their individual natures and try not to force them into molds.

Seraphim of Destiny are good at seeing truths even other Seraphim don't understand. They are God's eye on the Symphony, seeing past illusion, self-denial and delusion, and so they are able to sense true names. They are also known as Heaven's Chroniclers, and they make excellent and unbiased historians. It was one of Yves' Seraphim who chronicled the failure of Eden, the Fall of Lucifer and the Rebellion, and the Purity Crusade. It is said that Yves even has Seraphim in Hell, recording the torment of demons and the damned. The Seraphim also work as teachers and mentors, helping prepare other Shepherds for the road ahead. Many never leave Heaven except on sabbaticals. They are often aloof and distant, focusing on some distant fact, as they see so much that they can rarely comment for fear of possible lies. While not all are, most are guarded against predictions, as being wrong may not be dissonant, but it's definitely unpleasant.



Next time: Destined for changes

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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Superiors 3: Behold Your Destiny

Cherubim are the second most common angels of Destiny, and they guard humans as traditional guardian angels, looking out for their charges' well-being. Most work in Earthly roles that let them watch over people without drawing attention - cops, firemen, teachers, lawayers and local politicians, usually. To keep them from getting too emotionally attached, most never directly interact with their attuned. They watch from afar and get involved only when necessary. They are subtle and patient, willing to work over entire lifetimes. They may be guardians, but they're Shepherds first, and at times, they have to accept that destiny isn't painless or pleasant. When they act, they must accept the potential for longterm ramifications. Those who don't are usually close to a Fall.

Ofanim of Destiny are, like most Ofanim, wanderers. They are often overwhelmed by the sheer vastness of the Symphony, famous for just riding the waves of chance to let the Symphony take them where they must be. They are the eyes of Yves, and the ears and hands, moving almost at random to spread destiny. They serve as messengers, heralds and harbingers, traveling around and shaking things up while keeping an eye out for those close to fate. Legend has it that one of them appeared to Constantine the Great as a flaming cross bearing the sign 'In Hoc Signo Vinces', or 'in this sign you will conquer', during the battle that marked him as the first Christian Emperor of Rome. Some have compared the Ofanim to muses, inspiring mortals to greatness, and they do work closely with Creationers. They also empathize with Gabriel and her persecution. They are known to go out of their way to help Fire angels, and Judgment tends to watch them closely.



Elohim of Destiny are the most common of Yves' angels. They are excellent at understanding the subtle webs of destiny and how to work them quietly. Many believe Yves trusts them the most. They don't consider themselves above any other Choirs, but they do sometimes theorize that all Elohim, regardless of Archangel, ultimately serve Destiny. They are the foot soldiers, spending their time observing the complexiities of Earth. They are often teachers, librarians, reporters or counselors. They are the only angels that can, if rarely, predict how someone will exercise their free will, which makes them deeply valuable. Their objectivity also makes them unafraid to do what must be done, even if it is painful. In Heaven, they can be found working alongside the Seraphim of the Library, or advising other angels. Most of the Ivory Council is Elohim, and they have great pull within the Word. They tend to handle discipline, ensuring all angels of Yves act with Destiny's interests at heart, free of pride.

Malakim of Destiny are often misunderstood or mocked by other Malakim, but they'd almost never switch Archangels. They are bulwarks, pure and honest, the first and last defense against Kronos and the other Princes. Objectivity and free will aren't their problem - they do what must be done. Most work closely with Elohim, stepping in when direct action is needed. They will be the ones to decide if anyone, human, demon or angel, has a chance of redemption, and if so, they will go to great lengths to help. Others may perceive them as weak or cowards, but they know that is not so. Honor, they know, doesn't preclude forgiveness or compassion. However, they are still Malakim - they don't like lies or weakness. They'll offer a second chance, but not a third, and they have no remorse when that happens. They also serve as Symphonic watchdogs, thanks to their attunement, keeping an eye out for Disturbance. They are quick to respond and hold people accountable - and if they judge the action that caused the Disturbance unjust, they'll unleash their fury, even against other angels. They tend to have noncombatant Roles, to remind them of their purpose - lawyers, professors, coaches, taxi drivers.

Kyriotates of Destiny see many possibilities that others miss. They understand rnadomness deeply, knowing that at any time, everything can be both true and false. Many work closely with angels of Lightning to catalog and process information. They make great researchers and multi-taskers as well as problem-solvers. Yves likes to use them as detectives, too. They can handle all kinds of probabilities that others can't, and many see them as mavericks and celestial cowboys, something they're quite proud of. They aren't afraid to take risks or screw up, knowing that flexibility is key to destiny. If you get too hung up on 'should,' you lose sight of what is. On Earth, they tend to flit between hosts quickly, rarely forming stables of potential hosts. They tend to think in the future tense rather than the present or past, which can be maddening to others.



Mercurians of Destiny are sometimes looked down on by other Shepherds, as their closeness to humans can make them blind to the grandeur of Desitny. Still, they have an intimate understanding of humanity. They may not see the big picture, but they understand individual action deeply. They focus on the here and now, and are often best at guessing the future of specific people, as they are good at limiting their perspective. They see no point in focusing on the big picture if you don't understand what makes it up. They serve as guides for other angels on Earth, showing them the beauty of the small. They understand human conditions and can help others relate to humans and their fickle natures. They are like pastors or shepherds, never directly affecting others but subtle guiding them. They prefer to remain unobtrsive, though their roles tend to be somewhat public - politicians, anchorpeople, actors, athlets - so they can influence many mortals by their actions.



Working for Destiny isn't clearcut. It's the greatest mystery of the Symphony, awesome in its grandeur, and 'what should be' is hard to define. Thus, Shepherds try to focus on the immediate and everyday choices. Their work is dominated by details, and that's why knowledge is so important. When tending Destiny, a longterm view is best. When they act, angels of Yves do so knowing they leave a lasting impact. In Heaven, they largely work in the Library, transcribing, recording and researching. Most angels of Destiny spend their early years in Heaven before being assigned elsewhere. When not in the Library, they advise and tutor other angels on various topics.



In the Marches, the Shepherds weave destiny in dreamscapes. They long ago discovered that dreams are a great way to push people down the path of destiny, showing them the possibilities ahead - good and bad. (Angels of Dreams do not always appreciate dreamers being given nightmare glimpses of their fates, however.) Dreams give a lot of freedom, allowing a more active role in pushing good choices. They are flexible and symbolic, excellent tools. Unfortunately, Kronos is aware of this, too, and the Marches are a nightly battleground of Date and Destiny, much to the annoyance of Blandine's angels.

On Earth, angels of Destiny work as guides, mentors and guardian angels. They try to get people to strive to be their best, understand their strengths and limits, and accept themselves for who they are. They tend to have strong and longterm Roles. In the War, they serve primarily as support, providing logistics and information gathering with their subtle natures. Their advice can be key to victorious operations.

Destiny isn't always reached painlessly, and what is best may not be what is most happy or joyful. Shepherds know that some events of pain and misery must happen, and there are times they have to sit back and do nothing. Sometimes, watching someone die isn't enough - sometimes, they have to ensure a death happens to make sure destiny continues. These jobs, known as the Black Ops, are assigned only to the most trustworthy angels. While they msut be done, it hurts Yves and the angels every time they must sacrifice someone for the greater good.



The Order of Redeemers, AKA Redemption squad, are a group of Shepherds who keep an eye out for demons ready to Redeem. It's a dangerous job, but also a deep honor. Redeemers see themselves as crusaders for the souls of the demons, and all are willing to risk their own existence to help a demon feel the love of God. They are fanatically diligent, and often misunderstood by other angels who don't comprehend their holy mission. Some angels avoid them due to their frequent contact with Hell. Their nickname was originally a Warrior's joke, but the name stuck and even began to be used by other Shepherds, though the Redeemers call themselves 'the Order' among themselves. They're more a network than a solid group. Most of them work alone, though rarely they may team up in groups of two or three. Some wait for reports of dissonant demons, while others prowl Earth looking for candidates. They aren't really a military group - more a brotherhood. They have no leaders, no bosses, though age and experience do form a rough hierarchy of mentors. It is a very dangerous job - not many demons will admit to wanting Redemption. Confused and Discordant Renegades are moer likely to attack you first. Even when they cooperate, you can draw a Prince's attention. Thus, only the most dedicated and perseverant angels are invited to join. That's why it's such a high honor. Still, burnout and even Falls are relatively common, as the process is emotionally grueling. You invest a lot of yourself into the job, making you an easy target for a cunning demon. Traditionally, if a Redeemer sees potential in another Shepherd, they'll invite them to join. Candidates that don't think they can handle it can choose a supporting role, too. The Redeemers need safe havens, equipment and resources, after all. Most of them are Malakim, followed by Elohim and Seraphim, then Kyriotates. Other Archangels may have their own versions of the Redemption Squad, but none so large, formal or famous. The Order has a preferred MO, though they know there's many paths to Redemption. Once they find a candidate (they don't like 'demon' or 'Renegade') is foumd, they are taken to a safehouse for observation and re-indoctrination, in which point both angel and demon are isolated. After this, candidates are given simple tasks to test if they can function without reverting to their old ways. Usually, this involves a number of trials of determination and sincerity. Once satisfied, the Redeemer will then present the candidate to at least two other members of the Order. When at least two of them agree that the candidate is sincere, they call in Yves, or sometimes an Archangel more suited to the subject. Candidates that are redeemed are then assigned to the appropriate Superior. Candidates that fail or waver are often destroyed - those that spurn forigveness do not get a third chance.

The Ivory Council is made entirely of Scholars and Philosophers, and serve as the leadership between Yves and more junior angels. They advise Yves directly, and while he is open to all his angels, he confers most frequently with the Ivory Council. They act almost as a group of deans at university, setting policy and procedure and recognizing the achievements of others via awards and commendations. While Yves is theo ne who decides on grand policy, they handle day-to-day management. When not meeting, the Council works at coordinating Shepherds in other realms and acting as advisors and mentors. They are divided into the DEpartments of Corporeal, Ethereal and Celestial Affairs. They tend to be outside the day-to-day struggle of Destiny in all but the most abstract terms. They are so advanced in understanding that younger angels often have difficulty effectively communicating with them. They are excessively bureaucratic, keeping records on literally everything, but their real weakness is their detachment from the front lines. Most of them have spent centuries in the Library, and they tend to forget the difficulty of daily work. They don't understand the fine line, always, or that destiny can't be pushed. This has caused some conflicts, but nothing drastic. Yves is aware of this, so he routinely assigns some of them to Earth, usually as Seneschals or mentors.

Next time: Final Destiny

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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Superiors 3: Destined



The Shepherds are friendly and open, if eccentric. They understand that everyone has a role, and so they try to be friendly with all angels. They work especially closely with Lightning, Trade, Judgment and Dreams. They are also known to have much love and respect for Fire, though some attribute this to Yves' guilt over that whole fiasco.

Yves understands that Judgment is required and that Dominic is vital. However, he also knows the danger and fate that lurk within Dominic. He made the ideas of right and wrong, after all, and knows that if one stares too deeply at the shadows, that's all one can see. Yves has tried to temper Dominic's fanaticism, teaching him patience and understanding. The angels of Yves do the same for the angels of Dominic, who have the same tendency to tunnel vision. The Dominicans tend to appreciate this - they hate a false judgment as much as any Shepherd hates accidentally pushing someone to their fate. This shared weight of responsibility makes Judges and Shepherds feel very close to each other, and they rarely dislike each other.

Now, adventure seeds! Most of these are terribly boring, except one. See, Khalid always knows who the Holiest Man in the World was, and as part of The Final Trumpet, he gave that information away, allowing the man (an Iranian accountant named Ahmad Khan Qavam) to be killed by hands not mortal, which is the second sign of the Apocalypse. The crisis passed, and now there's a new Holiest Man in the World.

Who is an atheist.

Miles Foster was raised by a wealthy East Coast family, but his parents died in a plane crash. At 22, he gave away nearly his entire estate to charity, keeping only enough to get through med school. After that, he joined Doctors Without Borders, and he works tirelessly to give free treatment to the poor. He is a true optimist with a deep faith in humanity, despite what he's seen. He is also a rationalist who believes in nothing without evidence, save for human nature being good. He holds that's more of a mindset than a belief. He admits that God can't be disproven, but God does not fit his worldview, and it'd be irrational to believe in Him without evidence. And, of course, if shown proof of the existence of angels and demons, he would be shattered. He'd not gain any faith in God - he'd lose faith in everything, convinced it was all pointless, with humans as helpless pawns jerked about by ineffable powers.

The seed is that Khalid has no loving clue how to handle a Holiest Man In The World who is a secular humanist and an atheist.

The End

So - what's next? Superiors 4 (Secrets, Drugs, Greed, Theft, Technology), the GM's Guide (general overview of history and religions, among other things), Corporeal Player's Guide (Soldiers, Saints, Sorcerers), Revelations 1 (Metaplot) or Liber Canticorum (Songs)?

Ratoslov
Feb 15, 2012

Now prepare yourselves! You're the guests of honor at the Greatest Kung Fu Cannibal BBQ Ever!



I am genuinely surprised that Janus and Valefor aren't in the same book, back-to-back.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



Might as well continue with the Superiors, I think.

Khalid rubs me all sorts of the wrong way and I think is badly written, and Gabriel is also very off-putting to me, but I really like Yves and to a lesser extent Blandine.

I think I'd give Yves a bit of a Paul Atreides feel to him, being able to see the future and what a horrific burden that is. Bringing humanity to the golden path may well be beyond even the capabilities of the first and greatest archangel and God's right hand, but he nevertheless perseveres and almost no one in heaven has an inkling of the weight on Yves' shoulders.

Count Chocula
Dec 25, 2011

WE HAVE TO CONTROL OUR ENVIRONMENT
IF YOU SEE ME POSTING OUTSIDE OF THE AUSPOL THREAD PLEASE TELL ME THAT I'M MISSED AND TO START POSTING AGAIN


I'm curious about The Final Trumpet.
Does Yves not have one of those 'different ways to play him' bits? You could do The Absent-Minded Librarian, Peter Falk from Wings of Desire (the nicest man in the world), The Enigmatic Puppetmaster or Literally Just Borges/Destiny of the Endless. I'd be inclined to make him genuinely nice. Too many angels are assholes.

The one thing I like about Kahil is that most of the other Angels respect him. Keep that bit, drop everything else.

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007





Count Chocula posted:

Does Yves not have one of those 'different ways to play him' bits? You could do The Absent-Minded Librarian, Peter Falk from Wings of Desire (the nicest man in the world), The Enigmatic Puppetmaster or Literally Just Borges/Destiny of the Endless. I'd be inclined to make him genuinely nice. Too many angels are assholes.



Mors Rattus posted:

Superiors 3: Destiny's Child
Variations! Yves as God is...God, or at least a part of God projected to better understand the Symphony and its potential. Yves could easily be an enigmatic divinity watching over the Symphony. From this view, Yves/God sacrificed His universal view for a more detailed, intimate understanding of His creation, and He sees things as His angels do, better understands them and can ultimately guide them down the truest path. Yves as Tyrant, on the other hand, is darker - willing anble to do what must be done to ensure Destiny is all there is. He is the ultimate manipulator and puppet master, using his knowledge to control events such that there is no choice possible between fate and destiny. The ends justify the means. Yves is not heartless, but he will do whatever is needed to get an outcome favoring destiny. He will not hesitate to sacrifice anyone or anything to bring the Symphoyn closer to its destiny, and he will try to ensure people can only make one choice, no matter the cost. He is Heaven's dicator and conspirator, pulling strings and using his knowledge to orchestrate the War. It would take anyone, even the Judges, years to uncover his web of control. He would retain his stoic, calm exterior, but it would be a mask to hide behind. Yves as Madman understands, but that understanding has a price. The moment he saw God and named Him, Yves' mind fractured under the sheer potential. He still remembers parts of the whole, but as time passes, his memory and mind degrade. He is insane, muttering prophecies as Heaven's oracle. His angels catalog his every word, hoping to decode the truth. He sends his servants on random, often pointless missions whose significance is known only to him, if they have any at all. He is watched closely by Judgment, but even Dominic can see the kernel of truth in his rambling. He is confined to his Library, which resembles more an asylum as it mirrors his shattered mind. Michael, honest and pure, distrusts him and fears he distorts God's words. He sees the madness as a virus infecting Gabriel and perhaps Eli, and he wants to keep it from spreading. Yves is a tragic figure, an angel who has seen God's glory but cannot convey it in terms anyone else, even an Archangel, could understand.

Hypocrisy
Oct 4, 2006
Lord of Sarcasm



Count Chocula posted:

I'm curious about The Final Trumpet.
Does Yves not have one of those 'different ways to play him' bits? You could do The Absent-Minded Librarian, Peter Falk from Wings of Desire (the nicest man in the world), The Enigmatic Puppetmaster or Literally Just Borges/Destiny of the Endless. I'd be inclined to make him genuinely nice. Too many angels are assholes.

The one thing I like about Kahil is that most of the other Angels respect him. Keep that bit, drop everything else.

I feel the opposite. The archangels have pretty much all been decent sorts, at least to humans if not each other. The most hostile ones would seem to be Michael and Dominic and even that feels pretty tame. I guess a bunch are mad at Eli too but all of the archangels accepted his angels when he left.

Rand Brittain
Mar 24, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

May as well go through all the Superiors first, including the ones that were individually published as ebooks (Asmodeus, Eli, Lilith, Litheroy, and Zadkiel). Those are all pretty good, I'd say.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



Hypocrisy posted:

I feel the opposite. The archangels have pretty much all been decent sorts, at least to humans if not each other. The most hostile ones would seem to be Michael and Dominic and even that feels pretty tame. I guess a bunch are mad at Eli too but all of the archangels accepted his angels when he left.

Dominic, I feel, is fundamentally decent but he's an archangel with a difficult and unpleasant job that puts him under enormous pressure, and Michael's not much different.

Count Chocula
Dec 25, 2011

WE HAVE TO CONTROL OUR ENVIRONMENT
IF YOU SEE ME POSTING OUTSIDE OF THE AUSPOL THREAD PLEASE TELL ME THAT I'M MISSED AND TO START POSTING AGAIN


Hypocrisy posted:

I feel the opposite. The archangels have pretty much all been decent sorts, at least to humans if not each other. The most hostile ones would seem to be Michael and Dominic and even that feels pretty tame. I guess a bunch are mad at Eli too but all of the archangels accepted his angels when he left.

I just don't find anything relatable in all that martial honor/duty junk. It just seems like a straitjacket. Even Eli and the other hippie angel don't seem as fun as Media, Gluttony, and Lust. They actually like and cultivate human appetites, instead of subsuming them to a pointless war. Guess that means I'm going to Hell, but it's probably a valid way to play the game, as it is with most of these modern supernatural things. In most of In Nomine's source material, Angels are ASSHOLES.

And c'mon, Stone supports white supremacists, Laurence supported the Crusades and pushes all that knightly bullshit, Michael is the original Heavenly rear end in a top hat....

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



I think it comes down to the Words they bear. Of course Gluttony, Lust, and the Media are fun and cultivate human appetites. That's the point of their Words.

I think how I'd play In Nomine would be that Heaven by and large presents ideals to aspire to. It's hard. It's not fun for most people. It's removed from Earth and human life and experience.

Thus the temptation of Hell. Hell is very human. It's easy to understand, it's fun and it doesn't expect you to do anything you don't already like doing.

It's the fundamental conflict. Do humans take the hard path to heaven, or the easy road to hell?

DAD LOST MY IPOD
Feb 3, 2012

Fats Dominar is on the case




I have always liked the Terry Pratchett conception of sin of "treating people as things, including yourself." That seems to be IN's view. Haagenti urges you to let your appetites drive you; Andrealphus denies the possibility of caring about others; Kobal mocks the suffering of others rather than relieves it. Even the warlike angels care about humans as humans and encourage them to try their best and treat each other with respect.

Rand Brittain
Mar 24, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

I'm not sure if cultivating human appetites is that great in and of itself. Nothing about Nybbas indicates that he wants to foster good television.

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007





Hypocrisy posted:

I feel the opposite. The archangels have pretty much all been decent sorts, at least to humans if not each other. The most hostile ones would seem to be Michael and Dominic and even that feels pretty tame. I guess a bunch are mad at Eli too but all of the archangels accepted his angels when he left.

Jordi is an almost complete peckerhead to everyone and I don't think anything ever really improves him.

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011
I MIGHT BE A DECENT PERSON BUT I'M ALSO DEEPLY, DEEPLY STUPID AND SHOULD NOT BE REPLIED TO

Is he the storm one? Because I'd just make him Orlanth.

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.



Midjack posted:

Jordi is an almost complete peckerhead to everyone and I don't think anything ever really improves him.

it's kind of hard to reconcile someone so outright hostile with all of humanity given what we got from his original blurb, he hates humans, he never has, never will, which seems kind of detrimental to the War.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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I legit cannot comprehend looking at Lust, comma, the guys who push rape and total lack of caring about your partner even when it's consensual, and say that they're preferable to basically any angel we've read about in any detail.

Like, Haagenti could be way worse but Andre's completely awful.

Simian_Prime
Nov 6, 2011

When they passed out body parts in the comics today, I got Cathy's nose and Dick Tracy's private parts.

Midjack posted:

Jordi is an almost complete peckerhead to everyone and I don't think anything ever really improves him.

I can't really blame him. He's the angel who's entrusted the animal kingdom to humanity, and, well...

In a game like this, I think it's good to have one angel who's just completely sick of humanity's bullshit and is one bad day way from Falling and becoming the Demon Prince of Monsters.

Ratoslov
Feb 15, 2012

Now prepare yourselves! You're the guests of honor at the Greatest Kung Fu Cannibal BBQ Ever!



Josef bugman posted:

Is he the storm one? Because I'd just make him Orlanth.

Nah, Jordi is Animals, and he's basically a oWoD Werewolf that somehow became a Archangel. He fuckin' hates humans.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

To witness titanic events is always dangerous, usually painful, and often fatal.





Mors Rattus posted:

I legit cannot comprehend looking at Lust, comma, the guys who push rape and total lack of caring about your partner even when it's consensual, and say that they're preferable to basically any angel we've read about in any detail.

Like, Haagenti could be way worse but Andre's completely awful.
I think it'd be fair to say Andre is more interesting and might be more useful in an RPG scenario, narratively speaking, as opposed to being a better person.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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Nessus posted:

I think it'd be fair to say Andre is more interesting and might be more useful in an RPG scenario, narratively speaking, as opposed to being a better person.

I'd disagree, but that's because I am always leery of introducing that stuff into games.

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007





Simian_Prime posted:

I can't really blame him. He's the angel who's entrusted the animal kingdom to humanity, and, well...

In a game like this, I think it's good to have one angel who's just completely sick of humanity's bullshit and is one bad day way from Falling and becoming the Demon Prince of Monsters.

So what if he does? He has little interaction with any of the other Archangels besides "HIS ACTIONS MAKE ANIMALS SUFFER, gently caress THAT GUY" and already hates humans for pretty much the same reason. I guess he could encourage wild animal attacks or :krakken: or something like that if he was the Prince of Beasts, which would at least give him something to do besides be the patron angel of Werewolf players.

Edit: I agree that it would be interesting to have one of the Archs check out but they should be one more engaged with humans.

Simian_Prime
Nov 6, 2011

When they passed out body parts in the comics today, I got Cathy's nose and Dick Tracy's private parts.

Ratoslov posted:

Nah, Jordi is Animals, and he's basically a oWoD Werewolf that somehow became a Archangel. He fuckin' hates humans.

I almost think of Jordi as a little like Epimetheus from Greek myth; during Creation, he got so excited about the "lets make animals" stage that he forgot God wanted humans to be the star of the show. ("It's a *naked ape*! You can't tell me it's half as cool as the boxer shrimp, or the tardigrade! And think of all the great stuff dinosaurs could have done if they'd had another epoch! What a waste.")

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011
I MIGHT BE A DECENT PERSON BUT I'M ALSO DEEPLY, DEEPLY STUPID AND SHOULD NOT BE REPLIED TO

Ratoslov posted:

Nah, Jordi is Animals, and he's basically a oWoD Werewolf that somehow became a Archangel. He fuckin' hates humans.

Ahhh right. Sorry!

Rand Brittain
Mar 24, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

Jordi is the equivalent of the lead character's wife in <Generic Bad Situation Comedy> in that his role is basically to be the character who's sternly disapproving of everything the show is actually about.

Hypocrisy
Oct 4, 2006
Lord of Sarcasm



Midjack posted:

Jordi is an almost complete peckerhead to everyone and I don't think anything ever really improves him.

I didn't want to judge Jordi before he got his full write up!

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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He doesn't have one.

PantsOptional
Dec 27, 2012

All I wanna do is make you bounce

Hypocrisy posted:

I didn't want to judge Jordi before he got his full write up!

Unless they made more Superiors books that I don't know about, what we've already got is all there is.

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007





PantsOptional posted:

Unless they made more Superiors books that I don't know about, what we've already got is all there is.

That's it. He doesn't get anything else besides a couple of nature preserve Tethers and "Jordi is mad because someone ate a steak" level mentions in the Night Music books, so judge away.

Ratoslov
Feb 15, 2012

Now prepare yourselves! You're the guests of honor at the Greatest Kung Fu Cannibal BBQ Ever!



PantsOptional posted:

Unless they made more Superiors books that I don't know about, what we've already got is all there is.

That's too bad. Jordi is the Superior that could most benefit from a good writeup to expand his range from RAR gently caress HUMANS RAR and RAR PEACOCK SPIDERS ARE FUKKIN' ADORABLE RAR

Glazius
Jul 22, 2007

Hail all those who are able,
any mouse can,
any mouse will,
but the Guard prevail.



Clapping Larry

Mors Rattus posted:

The seed is that Khalid has no loving clue how to handle a Holiest Man In The World who is a secular humanist and an atheist.

At first this is really compelling, but it made me wonder -- exactly how many people would react beneficially to finding out that angels genuinely existed?

Covok
May 27, 2013

Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.


Glazius posted:

At first this is really compelling, but it made me wonder -- exactly how many people would react beneficially to finding out that angels genuinely existed?

Followers of the religions of the book would probably rejoice so a significant portion of the human race would, most likely.

Simian_Prime
Nov 6, 2011

When they passed out body parts in the comics today, I got Cathy's nose and Dick Tracy's private parts.

Ratoslov posted:

That's too bad. Jordi is the Superior that could most benefit from a good writeup to expand his range from RAR gently caress HUMANS RAR and RAR PEACOCK SPIDERS ARE FUKKIN' ADORABLE RAR

I'd emphasize his range to extend to "Animals, and those that care for them." He should be the patron of shepherds, veterinarians, animal rights activists, etc. He's less of a Red Talon, more focused on creating a world where man and beast achieve a level of harmony not seen since Eden. ("There's nothing intrinsically wrong with eating meat, but factory farms are a little slice of Hell on Earth. Let's work together to find something more sustainable and less cruel").

However, I see no problem with him having rough edges, as long as they're interesting. I agree that Heaven's attitudes shouldn't exactly match up to "the perspectives of 21st century people in liberal Westen society" for the sake of our feels.

Simian_Prime fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Jan 31, 2016

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



Covok posted:

Followers of the religions of the book would probably rejoice so a significant portion of the human race would, most likely.

Until they find out that heaven and hell really aren't much like what their holy books say, much less how factionalized they both are. Novalis alone would make many hardcore conservative Jews, Christians, and Muslims poo poo a brick. And finding out that Blandine and Beleth were once the heavenly epitome of romantic love, two female-presenting archangels (originally)?

As for my notes on using In Nomine, I think I'll eliminate Jordi, fold his portfolio in with Novalis, and replace him with the Archangel of the Sea/the Waters I've been mucking with.

In fairness to the game, In Nomine is very 90s so of course there's an ecoterrorist archangel.

Cythereal fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Jan 31, 2016

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Simian_Prime
Nov 6, 2011

When they passed out body parts in the comics today, I got Cathy's nose and Dick Tracy's private parts.

Cythereal posted:

Until they find out that heaven and hell really aren't much like what their holy books say, much less how factionalized they both are. Novalis alone would make many hardcore conservative Jews, Christians, and Muslims poo poo a brick. And finding out that Blandine and Beleth were once the heavenly epitome of romantic love, two female-presenting archangels (originally)?

Not to mention the disconnect of one angel that supports the Catholic faith and another supporting Islam working on the same side. I'm sure you'd have a ton of fundies convinced that they're *all* demons posing as angels to tempt the faithful.

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