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Lynx Winters
May 1, 2003

Borderlawns: The Treehouse of Pandora

Zomborgon posted:

I just remembered I found a Hunter: the Reckoning core book lying around, no idea what the difference is from Hunter: the Vigil. Maybe I'll take a look at it.

Basically everything.

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chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Cinnamon Bear posted:

All of those Hunter Conspiracies are insanely corrupt and evil in their own right, at least from my reading of the H:tV book. They're equally useful as antagonists, even if you're playing a member of one. Also one of the things Hunters have to deal with is becoming so divorced from what is "normal" or "acceptable" that it's a short hop, skip, and a jump to sociopathy and serial killer. Well, Slasher, really.

Not all of them. VASCU, f'rinstance, is mostly on the up-and-up. They're the guys who hunt down Jason Vorhees and, when they meet a Dracula, they're the guys who try to follow due process. Yes, they're still subject to "He who fights monsters", but it's in the cop show way where you're still on the right side now, but slipping that next inch is so very tempting. After all, you know he did it. You can't prove it, not in court, but the streets would be better off clean of scum like him, wouldn't they? And you know the guys who'd look into it, they know it too. They'd have your back. Just one little accident...

And eventually you're just another of the poor bastards locked up in Lansing.

Yeah, some of the conspiracies like the Knights of Saint George are intentionally evils that just happen to be targeting other monsters at the moment, but most of them fall into a grey area, with adjustable shades depending on your needs. The Lucifuge can be Hellboy, the guys who'll just have a beer with other monsters assuming they don't want to start poo poo, with the meetings with the Malleus Maleficarum being "We're big fans of the J-man too. You still remember we aren't the evils worse than man, right?", or it could be an ancient demon working with a mad cardinal to power play her way to control of Hell.

As for why it's something people want to play?

There are things that go bump in the night. Hunters are the ones who bump back. The World of Darkness is traditionally a place where mortals get the fuzzy end of the lollipop. The conspiracies are a way to turn the tables and play as the MIB or the BPRD, people who have a chance to not just kill a Dracula, but to force his skinny rear end into burning daylight to remind the rest of his foul ilk that the world isn't theirs.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



I ran a Hunter campaign for a long time, centering on Task Force Valkyrie, and for my players a lot of the fun was reminding the monsters why they live in a World of Darkness and are too afraid to come out in the daylight. You could read it as fascist power fantasy, sure, but to me that's both very simple and very boring. We played it in the spirit of letting people sleep soundly in their beds and worry about the troubles of normal life because people like Valkyrie are keeping a lid on the real monsters - a war in the shadows that the world will never be grateful to the soldiers who fight it because things would have to gently caress up spectacularly for the world to know anyone was fighting for it in the first place. Sometimes a murderous monster that needs to be put down is just a murderous monster that needs to be put down.

Count Chocula posted:

At that point you stop being the underdog and start becoming the fist of state power hunting down the Other.

And that can be fun. I initially pitched Hunter to my gaming group as "The President has been kidnapped by vampires. Are you a bad enough dude to rescue the President?"

Cinnamon Bear
Aug 29, 2016

by FactsAreUseless


I had completely forgotten VASCU for some reason. But thanks for reminding me about the Knights of St. George from Witch Hunters. I kept intending to use them as an antagonist group at some point but I eventually fell out of love with the system.

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.



And really, Beasts are the most grievous offenders, but lot of the supernatural are just outright monstrous vampires eat people and werewolves rip up people - Prometheans and Changelings being pretty much the exception but even then they can cause severe havoc even without meaning to.

VASCU is awesome, my personal favorite however is The Union, they're just your joe blow trying to make things a little better for their neighbors.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


There's a reason the primary question in Hunter is often "What gives you the right?"

On both sides.

Daeren
Aug 17, 2009

YER MUSTACHE IS CROOKED


Count Chocula posted:

And something about all the Hunter love squicks me out. I get the appeal of playing Ash or Buffy or Sam & Dean Winchester, but the fans who want to gleefully play SWAT Teams or government death squads hunting down 'monsters' rub me the wrong way. At that point you stop being the underdog and start becoming the fist of state power hunting down the Other.

I suddenly recall you taking the side of the God-Machine when talking about Demon. Can't imagine why that came to my mind just now.

Cassa
Jan 29, 2009


Daeren posted:

I suddenly recall you taking the side of the God-Machine when talking about Demon. Can't imagine why that came to my mind just now.

Well he who hunts monsters should be careful, because well, actually...

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Lynx Winters posted:

Basically everything.

Yep.

The Vigil is a variable level game, mostly about regular people taking back the night, but featuring play all the way up to the point where, with some combination of big guns, unshakable faith, supernatural powers, and plain old brass balls you can throw down with monsters on more or less even ground. Even at the highest level, you're dealing with other Hunters as well as the 'real' enemy, because maybe you're VASCU and TFV is trying to close one of your cases first to win some government dick-measuring contest, or maybe you're with the Lucifuge, and someone from Cheiron wants to chop you up so they can tape your arm to their janitor and make it shoot bees.

The Vigil is about being Buffy-but-poo poo. Some supernatural gee-gaw gives you the power to fight monsters (which is impossible without someone giving you a pick-me-up, before you ask) and vague instructions. Then you and all the other hunters, who share a secret internet forum, gently caress about and accomplish nothing, because Old Hunter was built so's nobody would bother the real power players.

To sum up, New Hunter is badass (mostly) regular humans who can, with a lot of luck and solid planning, loving wreck almost anyone's poo poo. Meanwhile, Old Hunter was empowered former humans (they can't awaken, can't be turned, their souls work different...) who mostly can't do crap.

(I will admit to a certain amount of bias)

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Old Hunter was a wreck, that's not bias.

Kellsterik
Mar 30, 2012


Daeren posted:

I suddenly recall you taking the side of the God-Machine when talking about Demon. Can't imagine why that came to my mind just now.

Same!

I heavily use Hunter stuff as antagonists in my Mage game, and I like having a mix of "good" and "bad" conspiracies/compacts, or looking at how and why the "good" ones are in opposition to people like the PCs. David Hill, the Changeling developer and Mors' perennial bugbear, posted two compacts for Beast that show the divide pretty well. One of them is a support group for Beast survivors that plays on the "what happens after you terrorize people to teach them a lesson" part, while the other is a survivalist/fundamentalist compound wackos who hunt Heroes for getting in the way of God's plan. There's a pretty clear sense of one of them being sympathetic and the other not so much.

Count Chocula
Dec 25, 2011

WE HAVE TO CONTROL OUR ENVIRONMENT
IF YOU SEE ME POSTING OUTSIDE OF THE AUSPOL THREAD PLEASE TELL ME THAT I'M MISSED AND TO START POSTING AGAIN


Old Hunter sounds cooler, to be honest. You in the World of Darkness, a gothic world built by and for monsters. You SHOULD be the doomed underdog- you might win a little victory, but if you win a big one it's a season/series ending arc that takes requires the sacrifice of your life and/or your soul. That's Evil Dead, maybe Bloodborne, Buffy, Supernatural, Hellblazer...even Hellboy has half his comics end in stalemates. I can't think of anything that's about well-equipped humans beating monsters on their own terms besides Death Valley (which nobody watched) or Van Helsing.

Besides, look at who the monsters are metaphors for. With the exception of vampires, who usually stand in for the aristocracy/1%, there's usually a connection to marginalized groups. oHunter includes the Hunters in on that, whether as militia or just general outsiders. Half of nHunter does too, but the SWAT Team stuff...eugh.

I mean, different strokes, have fun playing what you play, but if we're talking about uncomfortable politics in games that's my 2 cents.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Night10194 posted:

Old Hunter was a wreck, that's not bias.

The bias is in favor of things that are not dumpster fires.

RocknRollaAyatollah
Nov 26, 2008



Lipstick Apathy

I don't know what went on during the development cycle of Hunter the Reckoning but I would imagine there was a point where any attempts to make the Hunters actual threats to supernaturals was shot down. They seem pretty threatening with some of their abilities but even at their very rare rank 5 powers they're not that threatening, especially to the truly evil and threatening groups. Their rank 5 powers relative to other supernaturals are about two level behind in terms of what they can do as well. They can gang up on a lone threat and come out on top but the second they go against anything with cohesion or synergy, they're beyond hosed.

Vigil hunters are a step up but Chronicles of Darkness is pretty different in terms of powers and supernatural threats to the world at large.

Lynx Winters
May 1, 2003

Borderlawns: The Treehouse of Pandora

Rank 5 powers in Reckoning were also mathematically impossible to get, and required GM fiat (and a derangement, I think?) to get something kind of cool.

RocknRollaAyatollah
Nov 26, 2008



Lipstick Apathy

Lynx Winters posted:

Rank 5 powers in Reckoning were also mathematically impossible to get, and required GM fiat (and a derangement, I think?) to get something kind of cool.

You had to make a deal with an "angel" or demon so GM fiat was a huge part of it. It was almost like they were saying, "Dumbass, why are you playing this game? This is what you get for thinking you could rise to relative mediocrity. Now go play a good game like Kindred of the East"

theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.



Hey folks, System Mastery is back again with two episodes in one day (three if you're into crowdfunding). First of all, we read and reviewed NightLife!

This is a fascinating game from 1991-92 that's a little bit White Wolf, a little bit Palladium, and a whole lot ridiculous. It's like a splatterpunk monster party in some of the best ways, while being a bit hampered by that early release (and some deeply clunky, definitely accidental racism).

And if that's not good enough, we finally showed up on the One Shot Podcast, where we played Triniton

Triniton is a fairly lightweight game system from Sweden or something, and we basically goofed around all over it. James is hosting, and we're joined by a third player, the man who created Jackie Chan Adventures, Leverage, and Jaime Reyes, John Rogers. That was unexpected. If you've wanted us to do live play, here's where we finally do. Don't worry, literally nothing from the cover made it in*, it's all robot koalas, gun salesmen, and keytar gags.

*I am realizing this is a lie since that green fishcat monster from the bottom right corner will be relevant in the next episode.

NGDBSS
Dec 30, 2009








Lynx Winters posted:

Rank 5 powers in Reckoning were also mathematically impossible to get, and required GM fiat (and a derangement, I think?) to get something kind of cool.
Wait, how does that work? I can understand something being stupid difficult to access because it requires a lot of questing and/or accumulated XP, but it being "mathematically impossible" to access is another level of game design :wtf:.

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.



Count Chocula posted:

I mean, different strokes, have fun playing what you play, but if we're talking about uncomfortable politics in games that's my 2 cents.

says the guy who also supported Beast "Oh yes Gamergate is actually right those nasty minorities are really monsters" game

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


NGDBSS posted:

Wait, how does that work? I can understand something being stupid difficult to access because it requires a lot of questing and/or accumulated XP, but it being "mathematically impossible" to access is another level of game design :wtf:.

It was intentionally so so that you would have to ask God to maybe let you have your superpower that also would be kind of disappointing even if you got it.

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007





Robindaybird posted:

says the guy who also supported Beast "Oh yes Gamergate is actually right those nasty minorities are really monsters" game

Please don't engage White Wolf Stymie.

Lynx Winters
May 1, 2003

Borderlawns: The Treehouse of Pandora

Hunters had three virtue tracks: Mercy, Vision, and Zeal. All went from 0 to 10. Buying a power used up points on the appropriate track, so you could only ever buy 10 points worth of powers for any one virtue. You also needed the previous power for a creed to get the next one. That means if you bought all Defender powers, which use the Zeal track, you could get the first four since the costs add up to 10. On the other hand, if you took the first three Defender powers and the first Avenger power (also Zeal), you could never buy the fourth Defender power because 1+2+3+1=7, leaving you with only three of the four Zeal points you'd need to get the fourth Defender power.

Since buying the first four powers for a single creed used all of your points in that virtue track, the game explicitly said you couldn't fit that 5th power in the same way, and the GM would have to come up with some way to decide whether you can get it or not.

Hipster Occultist
Aug 16, 2008

He's an ancient, obscure god. You probably haven't heard of him.




Night10194 posted:

There's a reason the primary question in Hunter is often "What gives you the right?"

On both sides.

This gun and the American Constitution! :clint:

The Lone Badger
Sep 24, 2007



Hipster Occultist posted:

This gun and the American Constitution! :clint:

Pretty sure that's a Compact.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



The Lone Badger posted:

Pretty sure that's a Compact.

Nah. One Compact is American big game hunters who have found that monsters are quite a bit more fun and challenging to hunt than wolves or bears, another is a union of blue-collar workers who aren't just blowing smoke when they say the new CEO is a bloodsucker.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



Cythereal posted:

Nah. One Compact is American big game hunters who have found that monsters are quite a bit more fun and challenging to hunt than wolves or bears, another is a union of blue-collar workers who aren't just blowing smoke when they say the new CEO is a bloodsucker.

In my Valkyrie game, I also invented Project Looking Glass, a Compact based out of the NSA. They've figured out how to record monsters on film, wiretap Towers, and run surveillance on the Hedge.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



Post is not edit.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Hipster Occultist posted:

This gun and the American Constitution! :clint:

"I am a duly licensed FBI Special Agent. Special Agent Francis York Morgan. Everyone calls me York." is the best Reason to Hunt but that's mostly because VASCU is great.

Followed shortly after by "Because this is OUR home." for the Union.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



Night10194 posted:

"I am a duly licensed FBI Special Agent. Special Agent Francis York Morgan. Everyone calls me York." is the best Reason to Hunt but that's mostly because VASCU is great.

Followed shortly after by "Because this is OUR home." for the Union.

My Valkyrie game interacted with the Union a couple of times. "No, seriously, my new boss was literally a bloodsucker."

unseenlibrarian
Jun 4, 2012

There's only one thing in the mountains that leaves a track like this. The creature of legend that roams the Timberline. My people named him Sasquatch. You call him... Bigfoot.

OTOH, the best concept pitch in the hunter corebook is "Cheiron Group janitor who got loaded up with implants due to a clerical error and got a sudden transfer to the monster-hunt division."

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


unseenlibrarian posted:

OTOH, the best concept pitch in the hunter corebook is "Cheiron Group janitor who got loaded up with implants due to a clerical error and got a sudden transfer to the monster-hunt division."

Well yeah but how is anyone going to beat that?

Man, I'd run that campaign.

E: Though to make it really work, you need to make the Cleaner he got mixed up with his new partner.

Night10194 fucked around with this message at 12:34 on Dec 20, 2016

Nuns with Guns
Jul 23, 2010

....?


Count Chocula posted:

I mean, different strokes, have fun playing what you play, but if we're talking about uncomfortable politics in games that's my 2 cents.

I get that your posting style includes inserting dark tidbits about ur own psyche into any thread you frequent, like so many Freudian breadcrumbs, but have you considered that therapy might be healthier for you?

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015


Dave Brookshaw posted:

That drink *Breath*.

Kindred, in Requiem, are the vampires as per modern horror fiction - they're intelligent, they have pretensions of humanity, they're not (by and large) ravening reanimated corpses.

The Strix are all the vampire legends the Kindred aren't, and they hate the Kindred.

Now I'm suddenly picturing hopping Kung-Fu owls, and owls that are just a floating head with intestines dangling along.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018



The Jiang-Shi are actually mentioned later as a minor vampiric Clan that has been showing up more often lately. No one is sure why.

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015


Mors Rattus posted:

The Jiang-Shi are actually mentioned later as a minor vampiric Clan that has been showing up more often lately. No one is sure why.

That's because everybody was kung-fu fighting.

Nuns with Guns
Jul 23, 2010

....?


My favorite hunter group are the sorority girls who banded together to stop vampires from feeding on their college campuses.

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG


RocknRollaAyatollah posted:

You had to make a deal with an "angel" or demon so GM fiat was a huge part of it. It was almost like they were saying, "Dumbass, why are you playing this game? This is what you get for thinking you could rise to relative mediocrity. Now go play a good game like Kindred of the East"
It's actually the exact opposite of that (other than the level of power involved); the angel/demon powers were completely different. The level five powers in the Core book were the ones you got from a combo of GM fiat, multiple derangements, and "breaking free" of the limiters put on your powers by The Messengers (to the tune of 5 permanent Willpower IIRC).

No, the rules for this weren't in the core book. They were in a splat that was (I think) one of the last released for the line, because of course.

ZeroCount
Aug 12, 2013




the sorry state of owod Hunter is basically a microcosm of oWoD's philosophy towards humanity in general. Humans don't matter, literally everything is controlled by fifteen or so different duelling conspiracies that control the world, every important human in history was actually some kind of monster, etc etc. And that's not including the wide swaths of human culture, civilisation or technology that would randomly get labelled as evil every now and then. Trying to play a Hunter marks you as a special kind of idiot. There are no humans in the World of Darkness worth a drat and more fool you if that happens to be your character concept.


nWoD feels much less suffocating.Nobody really knows who or what is in charge but it sure ain't the monster conspiracies. They're all down in the muck struggling to get by with the rest of us.

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.



Also didn't oHunter suffered heavily because it conceived as an aborted attempt to tie Exalted into WoD before somebody came to their senses realize that just wouldn't work?

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ZeroCount
Aug 12, 2013




It's weird that I don't feel this way about say, Exalted or Nobilis, other settings where normal humans are mostly irrelevant. I can't really explain it.

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