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Nuns with Guns
Jul 23, 2010

....?


Green Intern posted:

So I admit to skimming over the first few Polaris posts. Is infertility really a widespread crisis in-setting? Any hooks as to what is causing it?

Also reading the word Fertile so many times in a row feels uncomfortable.

1. Yeah, it's a global issue. 2. No one knows why, it seems. Maybe metaplot antics we will never know or understand? :france:

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wiegieman
Apr 22, 2010

Royalty is a continuous cutting motion




Nuns with Guns posted:

1. Yeah, it's a global issue. 2. No one knows why, it seems. Maybe metaplot antics we will never know or understand? :france:

Come on, with those character sheets? There will absolutely be a metaplot.

Tasoth
Dec 12, 2011


So is it actually possible to have 'Fremen Fedaykin' or 'Titan Pilot' as end game builds in SotDL? Because that's kind of fantastic if it is.

Asehujiko
Apr 6, 2011


Green Intern posted:

So I admit to skimming over the first few Polaris posts. Is infertility really a widespread crisis in-setting? Any hooks as to what is causing it?

Also reading the word Fertile so many times in a row feels uncomfortable.
None at all! The vague hints about the future is the closest the book will ever get to explaining anything and all of those are written as inscrutable lovecraftian forces beyond mortal understanding doing their thing instead of spaces left blank for the GM and the players to fill in. The sleazy feeling of the book so far mainly comes from the weird decision for the book to start off with 8 pages of the Hegemony and it's fascist rape prisons as it's first major block of fluff. Or even the inclusion of the Hegemony in general, really.

Luckily, the subject will only come up exactly once more after we finish the first chapter because after that it's 400 pages of non-stop crunch.

The one time it does come up is chargen where you can take "wanted by Hegemony rape prisons" as a disadvantage :eng99:

The second half of the Red League should be up soon.

Serf
May 5, 2011




wdarkk posted:

Oh wow Goblin Rogue Daredevil.

Um, well, until you said that I didn't realize what I was making, but yeah, that is pretty much exactly what Queegol is. If you were to use the Demon Lord's Companion, you could take the Mystic Expert Path for some kung fu badassness, and then at Master just take Martial Artist and you would have it all.


Tasoth posted:

So is it actually possible to have 'Fremen Fedaykin' or 'Titan Pilot' as end game builds in SotDL? Because that's kind of fantastic if it is.

I'll go ahead and say: this is absolutely possible, and the crazy things you can do with regards to character building in SotDL is one of the major reasons I love it.

As we get further along and Spradley gets more spells from the Battle tradition we'll start to see that Schwalb is obviously a fan of anime and the Book of Nine Swords.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


Night Horrors: Conquering Heroes


What is even going on on this cover, dude's pied pipering a bunch of people off a waterfall? But everyone on top of the cliff is wearing white shirts and most of them have ties, everyone falling into the pit is wearing more colorful clothing? And why is it called Conquering Heroes?

Wait.



poo poo.

I know I said that I wasn't going to review this because I, somewhat naively, thought that it would be bland and toothless with an eye towards them maybe changing things towards the better.

Instead we got a housebound hacker named Null Snyper who feeds by Swatting streamers. And that is somehow among the least objectionable parts of her character. This book is bad, amazingly bad. In my opinion it's even worse than the Beast Corebook.

The book opens up with a story written by Matt McFarland himself. In which a man interviews a small boy for what I presume is a special school, he's not a child psychiatrist(that's another character) and they don't really specify what he's being interviewed for.

quote:

“Gate.”

At least this kid has some vocabulary, thought Vince. That’ll make it go faster.

“Want to hear what happened to my dog?”

Vince put down his pen. “Sure.” He already knew, of course; it had been in the referral report. This kid had been bounced around in foster care for the past 18 months, and one of the families he’d lived with had a dog and a 20-something son with anger issues and a penchant for drinking. He’d run over the dog in the driveway and then passed out, and the foster mom had found the boy — Richard — trying to bury the poor thing in the backyard. Vince wasn’t sure of the particulars after that, but he knew Richard wasn’t with that family anymore, and the foster mom who’d come with him to the evaluation seemed like she had her head on straight.

“Arlow murdered it.”

Vince kept his poker face, but barely. He made a mental note to write that down, at least to ask the school psych. “Who’s Arlow?”

“I used to live with his mom.”

Past tense, complex sentence, possessive pronoun. Interesting he’s using ‘it’ to refer to the dog. “OK. And then what?” Vince felt weird about this; kids didn’t normally open up to him about this kind of thing. If they had the language skills to do it, they didn’t need him anyway.

“Arlow ran it over. With his car.” Richard didn’t seem sad. He didn’t even seem angry, really.

“That’s terrible.”

Richard nodded. “I loved Niko. He sat with me when I was scared.”

Change in pronoun to ‘he.’ Regular past tense, irregular past tense, complex sentence, relating past events, talking about feelings, what the hell am I even doing assessing this kid? “What made you feel scared?”

“Monsters.”

Vince paused. He wasn’t sure how far to take this, and he still needed to finish the drat test. He had two other kids to assess today, and Richard was pretty obviously going in the DNQ file. “Monsters aren’t really real, though.”

“Are too. Sometimes people turn into monsters when they get mad.”

Oh, hell. Please don’t let this turn into a call to DCFS. “Who does that? Who turns into a monster when they get mad?” Vince kept his voice low, friendly, and warm, and looked Richard in the eye. If the kid was being abused, it was better to hear about it now than later. Richard fixed his gaze, and Vince almost shuddered.

“Me.”

That night Vince has a nightmare where his dead mother comes to him and tells him to follow the Thunder.

The next day Vince decides to go to Richard's daycare and see if the kid is having behavioral issues, anything to get him admitted to the special school since he's sure the kid needs help. He finds out that Richard has already left and probably won't be back since he apparently cut another kid, except "They ain't found no knife." When he goes back to work and talks to Grace, the child psychiatrist, and we find out two things, first Richard is four, second the other child was obviously lying because his wounds weren't made by a knife but by CLAWS. Also the Richard is probably going to "DNQ" (Does not qualify) for any program at their special school.

At the meeting the following day Richard is the only one who argues to Qualify the kid, and the rest of his co-workers basically ridicule him.

quote:

He walked down the hall to the psych’s office and sorted the reports out by case manager. Donna, Jim, Mia, Beth…Grace. gently caress.

He stood by Grace’s desk, staring at the report, staring at the photos pinned to the cube wall, staring at her loving chair, willing it all to catch fire. gently caress her, he thought. She can’t see it. She doesn’t see it. This kid is going to hurt someone for real, and she can’t hear the thunder.

“Vince?”

He turned. Grace was standing there; he was blocking the entrance to her cube.

“Yeah. Just dropping off some reports.”

“Okay, thank you.” Polite. Neutral. Just like a goddamn psych.

Don’t say another word, thought Vince. Not another loving word. Just get out, get your coat, go home, walk the dog.

He stood aside, and Grace brushed by him to get into her cube. He turned to leave. Walked two steps. He was five feet from the door when she said it.

“I think you should have skipped the meeting.” She was sitting down, now, looking at her screen. Not even really talking to him.

“Yeah?” Vince glanced down to his left. He was standing by Beth’s cube. She had a geode paperweight sitting on her desk. He thought he remembered her saying her son had given it to her for her birthday.

“Yeah. It was kind of embarrassing, actually.” Typing. Not looking. Not communicating. Not paying attention. “He doesn’t qualify. You know he doesn’t.”

Vince picked up the geode. It had to weigh a solid three pounds. He turned. “Well, I think he does. I think we’ll be sorry for not keeping an eye on him.”

“Well, Vince, we can’t just qualify kids for services to keep an eye on them. If he gets to school and he can’t succeed, then we’ll—”

Vince brought the geode down on her head. He heard a distinct crack. She gasped, a wet, broken sound, but she couldn’t scream. He raised the geode again and brought it down. It glanced off exposed bone and drew a ragged stripe of flesh from her cheek, snapping the frame of her glasses. She fell out of her chair and tried to push herself up.

Vince crouched down next to her. “He qualifies,” he hissed. “I said he loving does. He’s going to hurt people.” He raised the geode again and brought it down on the base of her skull, near the brainstem, near the medulla oblongata. Something shifted under the rock as it landed, and Grace collapsed, eyes open, barely breathing, staring at nothing.

Vince stayed there, squatting next to her, until the raspy breathing stopped. He waited for someone to come running. No one did. The only people in the building were custodians, and they’d done their sweep of these offices already. He grabbed a garbage can and pulled the empty bag out, wrapped up the geode, and carried it back to his cube. His right hand was bruised and had a fleck of blood on it, but he was otherwise clean. He put the geode in his coat pocket, and walked out into the cold.

Thunder rumbled in the distance, and Vince counted the seconds. It was close. The storm was close. He tightened his grip around the stone.

So many storms, his mother had said. How many others would qualify for his services?

That’s why we do this work, he thought, starting up his car. Because someone has to. Because no one takes care of these kids.

He pulled out of the lot and turned right, following the thunder.


So yeah he just loving murders his co-worker out of the blue for saying that he's wrong and then goes off to presumably murder a 4 year old Beast.

McFarland has learned loving nothing.

Introduction

quote:

What makes a Hero in any time and age? Is it the impetus to take up sword and shield to defend those less capable? Is it the desire to right perceived wrongs, to drive back the terrors of the night? Some would say yes to both, yet the truth of the matter is more complex and often much dirtier than that. The desire to be known as a Hero is every bit as intoxicating as doing good, often leading someone to see things in blacks and whites, while the rest of the world exists in shades of gray. Everyone is the protagonist in their own story; everyone believes they are the hero, the savior, and the person doing the right thing, regardless of how far from the truth they really fall. Those Heroes who take it upon themselves to hunt Beasts are all of these things, and worse.

How then, does a Beast come to conquer such creatures? The fairytale version tells us of the creature lurking in its cave, terrorizing people until a hero comes to save the day. But these are not fairytales, and this is no way for a Beast to really live her life. Why should she wait until some Hero comes by to stalk and hunt her as though she is prey? Sometimes she does take the initiative, hunting Heroes before they can hunt her, but she must be careful of the Horror inside. She must balance the terrible hunger she feels with the need to survive. Because if she isn’t careful, she may find herself becoming a true terror, a Beast without reason or purpose, killing and living only to satiate her hunger.
There are absolutely no noble reasons why anyone would ever decide to hunt Beasts, nope, never. And Beasts have to be careful when hunting Heroes lest they become something worse stay exactly the same. Because McFarland is the only person in the world who thinks that All Beasts Are Good And Absent Of Fault, particularly since there's a Beast who's been a beast since the age of 2 or something, which isn't supposed to loving happen anymore. But we're in McFarland's world and the kickstarter no longer applies.

Themes and Mood

quote:

Two themes pervade this book; the first is that sometimes good people do terrible things because they think they are right, and the other is that sometimes terrible people use the expectations of others to get away with their terrible deeds. Heroes throw their followers at problems, caring only for the final outcome, destroying a Beast, and not for the many innocent lives they endanger. Beasts give in to their Hungers, giving up any pretense of providing a lesson in favor of embracing their Legends and Myths. Insatiable are selfish creatures driven wholly by the Hunger inside them, caring nothing for the havoc they wreak as they feed for prolonged periods in an area.
"Insatiables?" you ask "What are those?", why they're a brand new creation, something even stupider and worse than Beasts. We'll get into that later.

To Conquer

quote:

The concept behind this book is not to display Heroes who boldly go forth and conquer Beasts. While some of the Heroes examined here believe that this is their mission, most do so for selfish reasons. Instead, those who take on these monsters are the heroes and the creatures found within these pages are the ones who need conquering. Heroes and Insatiable alike prey upon supernatural creatures, seeking them out to kill them to satisfy either a bloodlust or a hunger they cannot satisfy through any other means. Heroes looking for their next power fix tend to lose any vestige of the heroic demeanor in which they protect innocent victims, and instead throw followers and sycophants into the clutches of the Beasts they hunt.
"Most Heroes Are Selfish And Bad" is the new party line. And they now hunt all supernatural creatures because we need everyone to know how bad they are.

As far as Insatiables...

quote:

Insatiable are also born of the Primordial Dream, but their existence predates that of Horrors. The Insatiable live in a deeper, more primal place within the Primordial Dream, allowing them to move about nearly unseen by both Heroes and Beasts alike, but also preventing them from really connecting to humanity the way Horrors can. They instead must hijack people with a connection to the Primordial Dream, but not those who are fully realized as either Heroes or Beasts. The process is spontaneous, as the Insatiable is constantly looking for a way to feed its Hunger, and jumps on any opportunity that presents itself.

quote:

The Insatiable are creatures from a time before man, a time before the dreams and fears of man filled the Primordial Dream. In this time, the terrors of the world were not fears born of legends, but instead were the very landscape of the earth. These terrors live on, even though they are no longer prevalent thoughts in the minds of dreamers. Some of the Children believe they are some kind of progenitor species, created and then discarded by the Dark Mother, but they themselves believe they come from an entirely different entity called the Primogenitor. These creatures capture and take over those with any connection to the Primordial Dream before they come to realization as either Beasts or Heroes. They have an insatiable hunger they constantly try to fulfill by devouring human and Beast prey alike. This chapter details mechanics and powers specific to Insatiable, including rules for taking over a Beast’s Lair, or the Beast herself.
Back of the Book Summary is that Insatiables are exactly like Beasts except even older and more inscrutable, and they're always 100% evil with no hope of redemption. If I didn't know any better I'd think this whole book was just one gigantic parody. Unfortunately Insatiables are the last thing the book covers, second are Beasts antagonists (Because they've undergone the merger, retreat, or incarnation), and first up are Heroes.

Next TIme: How to hunt Beasts when you're a Youtube Superstar. No, really.

Hostile V
May 30, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.



loving hell wow that first bit of fluff really sums up everything wrong with how Heroes are handled. There's some pretty decent Hunter-style characterization but then there's a giant wet fart followed by beating someone to death with a loving geode along with "well guess I'll just be stupid forever now". gently caress me.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

Tasoth posted:

So is it actually possible to have 'Fremen Fedaykin' or 'Titan Pilot' as end game builds in SotDL? Because that's kind of fantastic if it is.
Long live the fighters!

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015


Kurieg posted:

[New Beast stuff]

:frogsiren:

Asehujiko posted:

None at all! The vague hints about the future is the closest the book will ever get to explaining anything and all of those are written as inscrutable lovecraftian forces beyond mortal understanding doing their thing instead of spaces left blank for the GM and the players to fill in. The sleazy feeling of the book so far mainly comes from the weird decision for the book to start off with 8 pages of the Hegemony and it's fascist rape prisons as it's first major block of fluff. Or even the inclusion of the Hegemony in general, really.

But ya gotta have a hentai faction.

Wait, no. You don't. Ever.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


Hostile V posted:

loving hell wow that first bit of fluff really sums up everything wrong with how Heroes are handled. There's some pretty decent Hunter-style characterization but then there's a giant wet fart followed by beating someone to death with a loving geode along with "well guess I'll just be stupid forever now". gently caress me.

There was basically no reason for him to kill her besides the fact that she said he was wrong, she wasn't a beast, she didn't serve his hunt, and he wasn't using her to further his own legend. He just killed her in a rage and is now going off to kill a 4 year old with a geode in a plastic bag because his ghost mom said so.


This is apparently what BHM writes when he's off the leash.

We've barely hit the tip of the iceburg man, you're going to need a bigger siren.

Zereth
Jul 8, 2003




Kurieg posted:

There was basically no reason for him to kill her besides the fact that she said he was wrong, she wasn't a beast, she didn't serve his hunt, and he wasn't using her to further his own legend. He just killed her in a rage and is now going off to kill a 4 year old with a geode in a plastic bag because his ghost mom said so.


This is apparently what BHM writes when he's off the leash.

It seems like a reaction to people not finding Heroes unsympathetic/villainous enough for his tastes. Just have one beat a woman to death for no loving reason!

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


We're gonna need some more straw to make these antagonists.

Lots and lots of straw.

Asehujiko
Apr 6, 2011



Polaris RPG(2016)
Part 7, Book 1, Chapter 1: The World of the Deep, section 1.2: Civilizations of the Deep


Still with the League here but we're already halfway through, the Hegemony is uniquely long in terms of writing.

Territory
The league's core territory consists of a line of cliffside cities built into the underwater parts of the Andes mountains. The largest of these is the capital Nazca, which spreads out over a diameter of 30 kilometers, and has 6 floors in the ocean and 12 buried into the mountainside. The book considers these numbers very important you see(Nazca also has nine times the surface area of Keryss, which the book previously said was the largest city under the ocean. Don't throw numbers at readers if your math is garbage, book. Cities much larger than Keryss in a variety of ways will be a running theme throughout this chapter) Nazca is surrounded by hangars for the League's gigantic commercial fleets and also their only significant farming installation. Most other stations are located off the continental shelf and built more conventionally with above ground pressure vessels. The League hasn't developed the extensive tunnel network of the Hegemony, only connecting the main cities along the Andes. Recently, construction has started on tunnelling through the Andes towards the Hegemony with the goal of connecting to their tunnel system and establish a connection with Equinox on the far side. The league owns many mineral extraction sites, with the entire Peruvian trench turning out to be loaded with Cylast and tri-terranium. The League has little in the way of agriculture outside the Nazca metropolitan area and imports nearly all it's food from the Coral Republic.

Armed Forces
The League maintains a navy of old and outdated cruisers in various states of disrepair, most money being redirected to genetic research, which is compensated in part by their massive numbers. Mercenaries make up the bulk of of their forces, with the League only directly owning a small section of their fleet. Rather than committing their vulnerable cruisers, the League prefers swarm tactics and ambushes with many escorts and frigates. Their underwater infantry is mostly standard although they lack the Hegemony's many sea-floor based tanks, instead being supported by Tarantula and Manta fighter craft. Below ground and on the surface is where the League really shines, with their elite forces trained and equipped to be on par with the Hegemony, if not better. The League has very little domestic arms industry and imports mostly from other states, most recently placing an order for several ultra modern cruisers from the Coral Republic.

Personalities
-Khan Urik
The First Citizen and spokesman for the Parliament of the League. Currently 71 years of age and obsessed with finding a cure for humanity infertility. Doesn't consider the Hegemony inherently hostile but thinks they should be contained when they're feeling expansionist(the Hegemony has never not been expansionist for the entirety of their existence so I guess this is a polite way of saying he does hates them forever?). Currently hunting a pirate named Seyard the Damned, who his spies inform him has critical information on how to reverse the infertility condition.

-Veliador Viper
Urik's appointed heir. 31 year old and a member of the Cult of the Trident. Viper is a natural leader and strong of character so most of the League's citizen are ok with this. Another plus is that he's fertile and thus able to establish a dynasty, something the League considers important due to owing their continued existence to several Uriks. Some say he is not the pacifist his faith expects him to be but secretly a megalomaniac.

-Alma Terrack
The 60 year old leader of Cliastro, the League's largest mining company. Incredibly influential but suspected to be linked to several notorious pirates.

-Kaleed Gradest
The League's greatest scientist, leading the Renaissance research project studying the sterility crisis. Possessed of a practically superhuman intelligence, this 16 year old is the League's most heavily guarded individual, having been targeted by a great many kidnapping attempts. Dead end metaplot reference count: 9

-Olaf Faltor
The League's ambassador in Equinox. Born without eyes and with several other hideous deformities(the latter wasn't communicated to whoever drew his character art) but nevertheless well respected by all. A true diplomat, his ideal future would be to unite all of humanity. Despite his lack of eyes he can read people as no other, able to always tell truth from lies, his voice hypnotizes those who listen to it and it is whispered he possesses even greater gifts. Dead end metaplot reference count: 10

-Karl Edgesteel
The Great Admiral of the League, and permanently occupied with requesting a larger budget. Sorry bro, you're not clearly part of the metaplot like Kaleed or Olaf so you'll have to make do with what you have. Doesn't believe the Hegemony's official stance of non-aggression for a single second and is suspected of trying to engineer a diplomatic incident that would reveal their insincerity. Has the ear of the First Citizen and is often seen together with Urik.


Khan Urik. No idea what is going on with the edges here, it looks fine in the pdf.

Stations

Chiloe
Population: 650.000
Depth: -286m
Fertile population: 13%
Mutant population: 56%
Chiloe is actually a long line of smaller stations connected together along the edge of the Peru-Chile Trench where they extract geothermal energy. It also runs the energy stations along the Chile Ridge, hundreds of kilometers away. The Chiloe station's mutant population keeps growing, although nobody knows why and while they are safe from burrowers, they are constantly harassed by aquatic and even amphibious predators from the Andes mountains for no discernible reason. Chiloe is connected by tunnels to Cruz and Leis. Note that Cruz is located nowhere near the Andes where the previous page said the League's only major tunnels are.

Cruz
Population: 192.000
Depth: -456 m
Fertile population: 11%
Mutant population: 29%
Cruz is Oneral's twin city and virtually identical in all respects. This means that we can defer actually describing the station to later and leave this a useless stub entry! Lacking city description aside, Cruz has a issue with the Proteus infiltrating the populace. What's a Proteus? Good you ask, we'll get to that in approximately 450 pages when we get to the bestiary. Jumping ahead a bit, they appear to be oozes that can take the shape of those they devour. The station is currently on lockdown and all new arrivals are interrogated at length, suggesting the problem has more to do with spies than blob monsters. Cruz is linked to Chiloe and Oneral by tunnels. Oneral is also not located along the Andes.

Leis
Population: 880.000
Depth: -6.000 m
Fertile population: 16%
Mutant population: 28%
Leis is a major industrial city built into the sides of the Andes. It's underground wards are a constant battleground against the Burrowers but despite this, many commercial companies have their headquarters here. It is a dark and dreary city but it's inhabitants are hard workers. Located here as well are several access shafts leading to the surface, where most of the League's automated factories are located. For some reason the book didn't think those would be important to mention anywhere other than halfway through the list o' places. Leis is the largest transport tunnel hub in the Red League, connecting to Chiloe, Oneral and Nazca

Nazca
Population: 13 million
Depth: -2000 to -7.600 m
Fertile population: 12%
Mutant population: 30%
Nazca is built into the sunken sides of the Andes mountain range and spread out all the way to the far side of the Peru-Chile Trench, where a 30 km diameter structure has been built, surrounded by hangars and agricultural stations. The trench has an average depth of 8.000 meters and a maximum of 18.000 meters and it is where the world's richest veins of Cylast and tri-terranium are located. Oceanographer's note: The book never tells you but at some point during apocalypses one through three a great tectonic upheaval must've taken place because the depths given for all trenches are often completely out of whack. That or Tessier has confused feet and meters somewhere. Burrowers contest this whole region and special underground commandos are always fighting to keep them at bay but are hampered by poor and outdated equipment. Wait, I thought the book said the League has the best underground and surface troops just two pages ago. Polaris! :aaargh: Nazca is connected to Leis and Oneral by tunnels.

Oneral
Population: 160.00
Depth: -856 m
Fertile population: 12%
Mutant population: 12%
Oneral is built into the submerged remains of lsla San Félix, here misspelled San Felix. It is a gigantic industrial city and it's mines reach down to 10.000 meters. Like Leis, many League companies have headquarters there. The city's quality of life is low. Everything is grey, cold and badly repaired though the inhabitants are hospitable and greet outsiders with courtesy and warmth. Tunnels from Oneral go to it's twin city Cruz and Leis

Vrama
Population: 86.000
Fertile population: 10%
Mutant population: 23%
Depth: -2.050 m
Vrama's depth is listed after it's demographics, the only station in the book for which this is the case. Editing! It's a major industry and trade hub between the Red League and the Coral Republic. It operates several mobile energy stations that drift along the ridges and fracture zones in the area and is constantly under attack by predatory creatures like Chiloe

Next: The Polar Alliance

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008



Kurieg posted:

Night Horrors: Conquering Heroes

Zereth posted:

It seems like a reaction to people not finding Heroes unsympathetic/villainous enough for his tastes. Just have one beat a woman to death for no loving reason!
I honestly do not understand how someone can write this badly and this tone-deaf and still draw a salary.

Green Intern
Dec 29, 2008

Loon, Crazy and Laughable



Karl Edgesteel is a pretty great Reaper Player username.

The Sin of Onan
Oct 11, 2012

And below,
watched by eyes of steel
we dreamt


What is Vince supposed to be? A hero? A beast? An insatiable? I can't tell his character beyond "murder a woman with a rock for questioning me, and also my dead mum wants me to do something, hosed if I know what."

Also I strongly object to this narrative of "the hero just sends other people in to die while they sit back and jerk off about how great they are." Most heroes of myth do their poo poo themselves; if they have followers, they're usually either heroes in their own right or retainers whose job is to stand around holding the hero's cloak while he beats the dragon to death (and occasionally get killed or kidnapped for pathos/motivational purposes). Like, Herakles is sometimes a dick, but you can't say he doesn't get poo poo done.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


If heroes were Herakles, though, they might be an actual threat.

We can't have that.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018



you don't understand, we're flipping the script and showing how all those jocks heroes are actually pathetic losers

That Old Tree
Jun 23, 2012

nah




Hostile V posted:

loving hell wow that first bit of fluff really sums up everything wrong with how Heroes are handled. There's some pretty decent Hunter-style characterization but then there's a giant wet fart followed by beating someone to death with a loving geode along with "well guess I'll just be stupid forever now". gently caress me.

It's also poorly written, on top of everything else!

This fiction doesn't make heroes seem like antagonists that are worth my time at all, in any genre, let alone gothpunk personal horror. "Blargh, I'm crazy and murderous, THE END!!!" What a great story hook full of personal horror for my horrific storytelling story game of horror stories.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


The funny thing is ancient myths usually contained, within themselves, that the Hero was often kind of a dick and paid for it.

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008



Mors Rattus posted:

you don't understand, we're flipping the script and showing how all those jocks heroes are actually pathetic losers
Oh man, you just gave me the greatest idea!

What if...get this, right? What if...Captain America...was actually...a Nazi the whole time?

Eh?



Eh?


I know...mind loving blown, right?

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


The Sin of Onan posted:

What is Vince supposed to be? A hero? A beast? An insatiable? I can't tell his character beyond "murder a woman with a rock for questioning me, and also my dead mum wants me to do something, hosed if I know what."

Also I strongly object to this narrative of "the hero just sends other people in to die while they sit back and jerk off about how great they are." Most heroes of myth do their poo poo themselves; if they have followers, they're usually either heroes in their own right or retainers whose job is to stand around holding the hero's cloak while he beats the dragon to death (and occasionally get killed or kidnapped for pathos/motivational purposes). Like, Herakles is sometimes a dick, but you can't say he doesn't get poo poo done.

A hero, probably. He's sensing beasts in the primordial dream.

As for heroes this book seems dedicated to proving that actual Capital H Heroes are literal human garbage who are terrible people and will never ever be good unlike the Beasts who are pure and unsullied and past that point I can't read because the pages got really sticky. (You know except for the beasts who are assholes but that's because they've achieved their true calling and the Incarnation puts them above such human concerns)

The hilarious bit is that there are some Heroes who *are* actual threats, but that's because they've got mage powers, or completely new Hero gifts including the ability to eat souls, or have killed 6-7 beasts off screen. The rank 1 Heroes are still as weak and milquetoast as ever without their mob to do the work for them.


E:Actually there is one Antagonist Beast that isn't Incarnate, Rampant, or Unbound.


He's a politician.

Kurieg fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Jan 16, 2017

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



Night10194 posted:

The funny thing is ancient myths usually contained, within themselves, that the Hero was often kind of a dick and paid for it.

Especially in the Greek myths, which are one of the go-to inspirations for "hero fighting monsters." Almost every Greek hero's story ends with "and then the hero pissed off someone powerful in a moment of hubris [a god more often than not] and died/was punished for all eternity."

Hunt11
Jul 24, 2013



Grimey Drawer

Cythereal posted:

Especially in the Greek myths, which are one of the go-to inspirations for "hero fighting monsters." Almost every Greek hero's story ends with "and then the hero pissed off someone powerful in a moment of hubris [a god more often than not] and died/was punished for all eternity."

Or it was a big part of their story. Just look at Odysseus who in a moment of hubris ended up dooming his crew to die and himself to spend another ten years away from hell. Also going from Greek myths the closest you get to a hero sending others to go fight for him was Jason and that was because his crew was quite literally a dream team of heroes.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.


Cythereal posted:

Especially in the Greek myths, which are one of the go-to inspirations for "hero fighting monsters." Almost every Greek hero's story ends with "and then the hero pissed off someone powerful in a moment of hubris [a god more often than not] and died/was punished for all eternity."

Except Odysseus, who eventually got home.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
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2014-2018



MonsieurChoc posted:

Except Odysseus, who eventually got home.

Well, there is also a large hanging question as to whether most of the Odyssey even happened (in-universe, that is), as a large portion of the story is recounted by Odysseus to others.

Odysseus, comma, whose superpower is lying.

Ratoslov
Feb 15, 2012

Now prepare yourselves! You're the guests of honor at the Greatest Kung Fu Cannibal BBQ Ever!



Mors Rattus posted:

Odysseus, comma, whose superpower is lying.

I'd say his superpower was more general bastardry, and lying is merely one tool in his toolkit of being a weaselly jerk.

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.



MonsieurChoc posted:

Except Odysseus, who eventually got home.

Ten years later, and he still had to make another long trip so Poseidon will stop trying to murder him every time he wants to get his toes wet.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


MonsieurChoc posted:

Except Odysseus, who eventually got home.

"Haha! He has no idea who fooled him and blinded him! Hey rear end in a top hat, Odysseus is the guy who got you!" -A man making a terrible mistake.

JackMann
Aug 11, 2010

Secure. Contain. Protect.


Fallen Rib

Traditionally, Perseus is the one hero who was the "perfect" hero. Didn't succumb to hubris, served the gods faithfully, died of old age after ruling well for many years. He's the archetype against whom the other Greek heroes are ectypes.

Count Chocula
Dec 25, 2011

WE HAVE TO CONTROL OUR ENVIRONMENT
IF YOU SEE ME POSTING OUTSIDE OF THE AUSPOL THREAD PLEASE TELL ME THAT I'M MISSED AND TO START POSTING AGAIN


The closest I can think of to a traditional 'hero kills monsters and always wins' is Beowulf, who dies to a dragon that he knows will kill him. He's not that much of a jerk in the original poem, especially compared to the heroes in... every other myth.

I can't remember if there's a Trickster Hero archetype in Beast. They were usually the biggest assholes in myth.

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.



JackMann posted:

Traditionally, Perseus is the one hero who was the "perfect" hero. Didn't succumb to hubris, served the gods faithfully, died of old age after ruling well for many years. He's the archetype against whom the other Greek heroes are ectypes.

given Medusa's deal, but then again Perseus would have no idea what kind of poo poo the poor woman has been through.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.


Night10194 posted:

"Haha! He has no idea who fooled him and blinded him! Hey rear end in a top hat, Odysseus is the guy who got you!" -A man making a terrible mistake.

:allears:

He's my favorite of the greek heroes, ever since I saw the old miniseries as a kid. Also went to see a stage adaptation I really liked.

Barudak
May 7, 2007



MonsieurChoc posted:

Except Odysseus, who eventually got home.

This is 20 years after leaving home, spending nearly a decade in a soldier prison camp, then going on a horrific adventure where everyone dies and his loyal and extremely long lived dog dies upon his return. I mean, he's a real piece of work as far as people go, but the dude does do quite a bit of suffering.

Please ignore the long period of time sleeping with a woman that wasn't his wife in luxury on some gorgeous Greek island.


The scribe/hero/deity Kui Xing never faced a challenge he couldn't defeat, but his super power is being the god of standardized test-taking and was so ugly he had to be ascended straight to heaven so he could have his body changed into words and work remote since humans other couldn't bear to look at him so, uh, that might not be the most traditional of heroic characters.

wiegieman
Apr 22, 2010

Royalty is a continuous cutting motion




Count Chocula posted:

The closest I can think of to a traditional 'hero kills monsters and always wins' is Beowulf, who dies to a dragon that he knows will kill him. He's not that much of a jerk in the original poem, especially compared to the heroes in... every other myth.

I can't remember if there's a Trickster Hero archetype in Beast. They were usually the biggest assholes in myth.

As ever, there is a topical SMBC for this.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.



Look the dude was a successful warrior who was able to give plunder to all his followers and generally treated them fairly.

That was like, gold standard behavior for the most part.

Count Chocula
Dec 25, 2011

WE HAVE TO CONTROL OUR ENVIRONMENT
IF YOU SEE ME POSTING OUTSIDE OF THE AUSPOL THREAD PLEASE TELL ME THAT I'M MISSED AND TO START POSTING AGAIN


I have never read anything that read more like a videogame than Beowulf. Maybe it was the translation? I think it was the Tolkien one, and he did kick off the whole epic fantasy genre that spawned all these RPGs and games. But it was weird to be in a college English literature class reading about a guy killing monsters, getting upgraded loot, and then using that loot to kill more monsters.

No wonder every modern adaptation tries to change or subvert it.
I prefer Gilgamesh 'cause it's more existential.

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009




How did McFarland write Demon again? Did he, really?

The Sin of Onan
Oct 11, 2012

And below,
watched by eyes of steel
we dreamt


Count Chocula posted:

I have never read anything that read more like a videogame than Beowulf. Maybe it was the translation? I think it was the Tolkien one, and he did kick off the whole epic fantasy genre that spawned all these RPGs and games. But it was weird to be in a college English literature class reading about a guy killing monsters, getting upgraded loot, and then using that loot to kill more monsters.

No wonder every modern adaptation tries to change or subvert it.
I prefer Gilgamesh 'cause it's more existential.

Gilgamesh is good. It is also the only legend I know of to feature a man throwing a bull's arse at a goddess. But Mesopotamian myth is weird in general (see also; the myth where Inanna is so proud of either her sheepfold or her vulva - the words are the same in Sumerian - that she decides to show it to her father, who agrees that it's the best sheepfold/vulva he's ever seen, and then throws a party for it). Much comedy ensues.

quote:

Inanna spoke:
“What I tell you
Let the singer weave into song.
What I tell you,
Let it flow from ear to mouth,
Let it pass from old to young:
My vulva, the horn,
The Boat of Heaven,
Is full of eagerness like the young moon.
My untilled land lies fallow.
As for me, Inanna,
Who will plow my vulva?
Who will plow my high field?
Who will plow my wet ground?
As for me, the young woman,
Who will plow my vulva?
Who will station the ox there?
Who will plow my vulva?”

Dumuzi replied:
“Great Lady, the king will plow your vulva?
I, Dumuzi the King, will plow your vulva.”

Inanna:
“Then plow my vulva, man of my heart!
Plow my vulva!”

e: sorry, not father; great-uncle.

The Sin of Onan fucked around with this message at 09:25 on Jan 16, 2017

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Doresh
Jan 7, 2015


Kurieg posted:

We've barely hit the tip of the iceburg man, you're going to need a bigger siren.

I could scale the small one to 4k resolution, but I fear not even that is big enough for this.

The Sin of Onan posted:

Also I strongly object to this narrative of "the hero just sends other people in to die while they sit back and jerk off about how great they are." Most heroes of myth do their poo poo themselves; if they have followers, they're usually either heroes in their own right or retainers whose job is to stand around holding the hero's cloak while he beats the dragon to death (and occasionally get killed or kidnapped for pathos/motivational purposes). Like, Herakles is sometimes a dick, but you can't say he doesn't get poo poo done.

Herakles was a lazy dude. We just remember it that way because history is written by jocks. That's the "genius" of Beast.

Night10194 posted:

The funny thing is ancient myths usually contained, within themselves, that the Hero was often kind of a dick and paid for it.

The best part about Greek heroes is that just about everyone besides Odysseus has some nasty prophecy/destiny going on they can never avoid. You can slay all the nasty monsters you want, but if some oracle says you'll end up making out with your mother, you're screwed.
The only good thing you really get out of being a Greek hero is a place at Mt. Olympus, but only if you were a demigod to begin with. Though you would've probably gotten that anyways.

Doresh fucked around with this message at 10:37 on Jan 16, 2017

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