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AnEdgelord
Dec 12, 2016



Kavak posted:

How did McFarland write Demon again? Did he, really?

I'm wondering this myself, are we sure DaveB or Rose didn't ghost write it?

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Ominous Jazz
Jun 15, 2011

Big D is chillin' over here
Wasteland style


Count Chocula posted:

No wonder every modern adaptation tries to change or subvert it.
I prefer Gilgamesh 'cause it's more existential.

It's also explicitly gay, it loving rules

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

"Send in Boxbot!"



The Sin of Onan posted:

Gilgamesh is good. It is also the only legend I know of to feature a man throwing a bull's arse at a goddess. But Mesopotamian myth is weird in general (see also; the myth where Inanna is so proud of either her sheepfold or her vulva - the words are the same in Sumerian - that she decides to show it to her father, who agrees that it's the best sheepfold/vulva he's ever seen, and then throws a party for it). Much comedy ensues.

e: sorry, not father; great-uncle.

I find it makes a lot more sense in the context of Inanna being weapons-grade crazy and threatening to open the gates of the Underworld to unleash a zombie apocalypse whenever she feels even the least bit slighted.

:boom:: "Hey. Uncle Dumuzid! Look at my lady parts! Aren't they the best lady parts? I bet you couldn't find a vagina as perfect as mine anywhere in creation!"

:stonklol:: "Um, Inanna, this really isn't appropriate behav-"

:zombie:: *Gates of Hell begin to groan and strain under the weight of the ravening horde*

:stonklol:: "You know what, you're right! You have the best vagina in all the cosmos! Why, *I'd* touch it, and I'm your uncle! Let's throw it a party! Please don't destroy the world"

SirPhoebos
Dec 10, 2007

WELL THAT JUST HAPPENED!

I'm probably going to abandon my Book of Artifacts review soon (I still want to cover the magic item creation section) and I'm curious about the first edition of Cyberpunk (or Cyberpunk 2.0.1.3. as it's otherwise known). The only problem is that I can't find any copies-not even Drivethru seems to have it available.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


LordAbaddon posted:

I'm wondering this myself, are we sure DaveB or Rose didn't ghost write it?

Rose co-wrote the Demon Core book, but Matt was lead writer on most of the supplementary material and it's all very good.

AnEdgelord
Dec 12, 2016



Kurieg posted:

Rose co-wrote the Demon Core book, but Matt was lead writer on most of the supplementary material and it's all very good.

Thats what makes everything to do with Beast so confusing. How can the same man do both? Is this what happens when someone buys into their own hype?

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.



LordAbaddon posted:

Thats what makes everything to do with Beast so confusing. How can the same man do both? Is this what happens when someone buys into their own hype?

It can happen, and sometimes a good work is a fluke (i.e: Utena is good, everything else done by Ikuhara is awful) of an otherwise mediocre or bad writer.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


LordAbaddon posted:

Thats what makes everything to do with Beast so confusing. How can the same man do both? Is this what happens when someone buys into their own hype?

Some writers just can't kill their darlings, and some writers work well off of an established state. Demon is good, it's easy to make good things when the foundation you're building on is solid. Beast needs a lot of work and Matt needs to at least accept the reality that the harsh criticism might not be unfounded. I understand that they have kickstarter obligations to fulfill but I'm not looking forward to being the one man tasked with rubbing BHM's face in mess he keeps making.

It is worth noting that unlike Beast, Conquering Heroes has absolutely zero reviews on DTRPG, and the only comments on it are choice quotes from the character description of the Blind Man (Which is a thing I would thank everyone to not spoil, it needs to be experienced properly) so it seems other people are at least realizing that this isn't healthy.

Kurieg fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Jan 16, 2017

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009




I can only assume having to follow guidelines and rules that someone else had helped set out made things work.

Robindaybird posted:

It can happen, and sometimes a good work is a fluke (i.e: Utena is good, everything else done by Ikuhara is awful) of an otherwise mediocre or bad writer.

McFarland had done a lot of stuff before this that wasn't bad, right? I know writers often go overboard or wallow in self-indulgence when let off the handle, but the sheer plunge in quality is what's shocking people.

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.



Kavak posted:

I can only assume having to follow guidelines and rules that someone else had helped set out made things work.


McFarland had done a lot of stuff before this that wasn't bad, right? I know writers often go overboard or wallow in self-indulgence when let off the handle, but the sheer plunge in quality is what's shocking people.

Yea, some people really do need either editors or collaborators to reign them in - LKH's Anita Blake series went off the rails when she got successful enough to pick her own editor (who fawns over her and basically doesn't even touch the text), Kojima really does need someone to come in and trim the fat, etc, etc.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.


Beast: Dare you enter their Magical Realm?

vcvcvc12
Jun 9, 2013


I have this problem where i can't just let a terrible thing be terrible, so i've been thinking about Beast for a while now.

Does anyone else think the titular Beasts are kinda luddite-ish? Like moreso than any other NWoD sourcebook we've done? They're creatures that do a job that may have been necessary once but is now actively making things worse, they swear up and down that they're necessary, and their main antagonist's big plan is just to get rid of them. I dunno, I can't help but think that with a refocusing of the narrative and them being something other than "ordinary human who can scare people", it could work. I mean, it's a potentially sympathetic motivation?

Or maybe it couldn't and i'm just a dumb.

vcvcvc12 fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Jan 16, 2017

unseenlibrarian
Jun 4, 2012

There's only one thing in the mountains that leaves a track like this. The creature of legend that roams the Timberline. My people named him Sasquatch. You call him... Bigfoot.

Everyone comes up with a way to try to salvage Beast.

The problem is that Beast we've got is not really worth saving.

Double Plus Undead
Dec 24, 2010


Seriously this thread is littered with reworks of Beast in a desperate attempt to make it a good game. Let it go.

AnEdgelord
Dec 12, 2016



At this point all Beast deserves is a total rewrite from the ground up, and possibly being turned into hunter or mage antagonists.

vcvcvc12
Jun 9, 2013


Double Plus Undead posted:

Seriously this thread is littered with reworks of Beast in a desperate attempt to make it a good game. Let it go.

Yeah ok good point.

I still don't get how someone could be so incredibly tonedeaf as to make more Beast books. Did anyone actually buy into the idea that these kinds of characters could be interesting?

I just went to look at what other forums said about it and apparently the answer is yes. Wow. I mean i should expect that from the internet by now but still.

vcvcvc12 fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Jan 16, 2017

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


vcvcvc12 posted:

Yeah ok good point.

I still don't get how someone could be so incredibly tonedeaf as to make more Beast books. Did anyone actually buy into the idea that these kinds of characters could be interesting?

I just went to look at what other forums said about it and apparently the answer is yes. Wow.

I believe Beast actually sold pretty well.

AnEdgelord
Dec 12, 2016



Night10194 posted:

I believe Beast actually sold pretty well.

Thats extremely disappointing for humanity

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009




The Kickstarter petered out much faster than their other big ones, though. And like Kurieg said, this thing took a day to reach Bronze status on DTRPG, a unique achievement for an Onyx Path book. So it's still selling, just not at the numbers a good CoD game would.

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.



And I wonder how much of it is a misguided attempt for revised Changeling, Geist or other books people were more interested in (Geist had a great concept, just poor ideas on how you're actually suppose to play it) - like how Capcom tried to get people to buy unrelated games so they'd publish the ones people actually wanted.

I'm someone addicted to trying to rewrite bad things and Beast is impossible without scrapping everything but the name.

SirPhoebos
Dec 10, 2007

WELL THAT JUST HAPPENED!

Honestly, I don't see any aspect of Beast that makes it worth a rewrite. It's almost as bad as that Gypsies sourcebook, the one not-so-horrible thing being that the powers aren't literally drawn from negative stereotypes.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.


Robindaybird posted:

And I wonder how much of it is a misguided attempt for revised Changeling, Geist or other books people were more interested in (Geist had a great concept, just poor ideas on how you're actually suppose to play it) - like how Capcom tried to get people to buy unrelated games so they'd publish the ones people actually wanted.

I'm someone addicted to trying to rewrite bad things and Beast is impossible without scrapping everything but the name.

I'd rather have a new Street Fighter RPG.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


SirPhoebos posted:

Honestly, I don't see any aspect of Beast that makes it worth a rewrite. It's almost as bad as that Gypsies sourcebook, the one not-so-horrible thing being that the powers aren't literally drawn from negative stereotypes.

There aren't any. The idea of being a mythmaker whose job is actually really complicated, sympathetic, or weird and getting inserted into a gothic crazytown is a neat idea, but that's never actually been what Beast is. Beast has always been an irredeemable pile of poo poo about justified violence and wallowing in enjoying 'deserved' harm, which is awful.

Chernobyl Peace Prize
May 7, 2007

Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.



Night10194 posted:

There aren't any. The idea of being a mythmaker whose job is actually really complicated, sympathetic, or weird and getting inserted into a gothic crazytown is a neat idea, but that's never actually been what Beast is.
Also you can already do that with Changeling, a lot, and one of the groups (Autumn Court, especially the Scarecrow Ministry) explicitly do the "protect mortals + sustain yourself through fear" thing pretty dang well.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


I posted it elsewhere here or in the WoD thread, but my ideal game of that type would be that you're a muse. You're a dragon or sharktopus or whatever. Everyone sees you as human. In the day you live a normal life. You watch people. You *like* people. You inspire people. Kind of a reverse of Disquiet where your presence helps a community or location via your inspiration and the stories and dreams you bring about at night. And then one day, someone sees through the disguise, panics, and now they're coming after you because they think you eat people. You have powers, you have the script, and they're playing the Hero's role, which gives your misguided attacker a bunch of power over you. Now you have a choice to make. How do you deal with this? You've got the script, like I said, and you could break the story however you wanted, but being a genre savvy rear end in a top hat monster like the Beasts makes for being a bad story and the person you're up against maybe doesn't deserve that, anyway; this is the World of Darkness and they have no idea you're not a monster. So now you have to deal with the easy temptation to rewrite the hero as a strawman and destroy them, or find some better way to a better end and a new story for both of you.

Wouldn't fit in the WoD, wouldn't even be the kind of game you can run that many times, but someday I'd like to write that for somebody. Also not quite Changling since it escapes the abuse metaphor. My idea would be more of a cosmic employee than a terrified survivor.

Night10194 fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Jan 16, 2017

Daeren
Aug 17, 2009

YER MUSTACHE IS CROOKED


The only real springboard for a salvaged beast is also the one I've seen like fifteen times via independent sources by now, where Beasts are more like Grigori from Dragon's Dogma and exist to forge properly good and heroic people via testing them, and the win condition is when you get got by a worthy foe.

Of course, you'd have to burn down so much of Beast to get to that as your base premise that you're actively hurting your pitch by associating it with Beast as it actually exists. Believe me, I tried for months to rewrite both the mechanics and the fluff to make it happen, but it honestly just doesn't deserve the legitimacy bestowed by having someone put the effort in. The kindest thing you can do to Beast is poach the few mechanical innovations it made that were either good or a novel stab at an idea, and leave the rest behind.

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.



And seems like all the good ideas are covered by Better Angels

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


Night10194 posted:

I believe Beast actually sold pretty well.

A lot of Beast's numbers came from people who had already committed to buy it off the Kickstarter and what, are you going to not redeem the thing you already paid over retail for? Most of Beast's reviews are glowing and came from *before* the book came out, meaning it was entirely kickstarter backers. Conquering Heroes is probably a better metric for what people actually think of Beast.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Kurieg posted:

A lot of Beast's numbers came from people who had already committed to buy it off the Kickstarter and what, are you going to not redeem the thing you already paid over retail for? Most of Beast's reviews are glowing and came from *before* the book came out, meaning it was entirely kickstarter backers. Conquering Heroes is probably a better metric for what people actually think of Beast.

This is comforting and good to hear.

SirPhoebos
Dec 10, 2007

WELL THAT JUST HAPPENED!

Night10194 posted:

This is comforting and good to hear.

My expectations of other people took a huge hit from last year. I wouldn't hold my breath for anything.

Obligatum VII
May 5, 2014

Haunting you until no 8 arrives.

Daeren posted:

The only real springboard for a salvaged beast is also the one I've seen like fifteen times via independent sources by now, where Beasts are more like Grigori from Dragon's Dogma and exist to forge properly good and heroic people via testing them, and the win condition is when you get got by a worthy foe.

Of course, you'd have to burn down so much of Beast to get to that as your base premise that you're actively hurting your pitch by associating it with Beast as it actually exists. Believe me, I tried for months to rewrite both the mechanics and the fluff to make it happen, but it honestly just doesn't deserve the legitimacy bestowed by having someone put the effort in. The kindest thing you can do to Beast is poach the few mechanical innovations it made that were either good or a novel stab at an idea, and leave the rest behind.

Dragon's Dogma in the dragon's role as a P&P game is still a really rad concept that I hope someone does eventually. Though I think it would ultimately be best off in some other system than WoD, and not just to avoid association with Beast.

Simian_Prime
Nov 6, 2011

When they passed out body parts in the comics today, I got Cathy's nose and Dick Tracy's private parts.

The main problem with trying to "fix" Beast is that once you scrape away the offensive crap, you just don't have that compelling a game; just another boring nWoD/CofD/OP* rehash of Campbell monomyth, horror movie cliches, and a narrative that talks a big game about playing a-monster-but-not-really. It's for the same reason FATAL is unfixable; once you get past the juvenile stuff, it's just another boring fantasy heartbreaker with archaic rules.

At this point it's only fun for gawking at, and even that's starting to wear thin. "Oh look, on page XX the author compares CPS workers to the alt-right." *yawn*

*there must be some law where the number of acronyms a game line goes by is inversely proportionate to the quality of its product

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018



I'm gonna go to bat for Conquering Heroes - it's terrible in new and fascinating ways! Just trust me on this.

Lynx Winters
May 1, 2003

Borderlawns: The Treehouse of Pandora

Simian_Prime posted:

At this point it's only fun for gawking at, and even that's starting to wear thin. "Oh look, on page XX the author compares CPS workers to the alt-right." *yawn*

"starting to"

Crasical
Apr 22, 2014

GG!*
*GET GOOD


LordAbaddon posted:

At this point all Beast deserves is a total rewrite from the ground up, and possibly being turned into hunter or mage antagonists.

They're 'beasts of nightmare' with abuser overtones that warp the psychic landscape with the primordial dream, and create their own metaphysical boss lairs that need to be entered and the monster slain.

I feel like they're FANTASTIC Changeling antagonists.

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007





Crasical posted:


I feel like they're FANTASTIC Changeling antagonists.

"Tastiest topping for dogshit sundaes!"

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.



Crasical posted:

They're 'beasts of nightmare' with abuser overtones that warp the psychic landscape with the primordial dream, and create their own metaphysical boss lairs that need to be entered and the monster slain.

I feel like they're FANTASTIC Changeling antagonists.

Given they sympathize and agree with the True Fae to the point of handing Changelings over to them - they're already Changeling antagonists.

NutritiousSnack
Jul 12, 2011


Robindaybird posted:

It can happen, and sometimes a good work is a fluke (i.e: Utena is good, everything else done by Ikuhara is awful) of an otherwise mediocre or bad writer.

Sometimes great writers can create massive piles of poo poo not be aware of it, especially if the work in question reveals a character flaw. In Matt's case it's that he responds poorly to trolling, political arguments, and humanizing political opponents.

Night10194 posted:

I believe Beast actually sold pretty well.

It's the worst selling NWoD 2.0 game. But yeah the White Wolf people are zombies

NutritiousSnack fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Jan 17, 2017

AnEdgelord
Dec 12, 2016



Robindaybird posted:

Given they sympathize and agree with the True Fae to the point of handing Changelings over to them - they're already Changeling antagonists.

Whoah wait a minute, I knew that Beasts sympathized with the True Fae to an unhealthy degree but they actually capture and hand over Changelings to them?

Why does Macfarland have the audacity to pretend that Beast's are in anyway redeemable when they apparently hand over the rape victim stand-ins to their rapists so they can go BACK into their sex dungeon. Thats hosed up on enough levels that I can barely fathom.

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Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.



LordAbaddon posted:

Whoah wait a minute, I knew that Beasts sympathized with the True Fae to an unhealthy degree but they actually capture and hand over Changelings to them?

Why does Macfarland have the audacity to pretend that Beast's are in anyway redeemable when they apparently hand over the rape victim stand-ins to their rapists so they can go BACK into their sex dungeon. Thats hosed up on enough levels that I can barely fathom.

I can't remember if that was actually in text, or a conclusion I came to after reading it and seeing the anthology where a Beast tried to force a Humanized Promthean into becoming a Promthean again - but it's not too far fetched to believe they will hand Changelings over to True Fae base on things as written.

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