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SirPhoebos
Dec 10, 2007

WELL THAT JUST HAPPENED!

Selachian posted:

Know Your Role is actually a pretty good game for a d20 product. The big problem I always ran into is defining what a Savvy (i.e. Charisma-based) move is. If the People's Elbow is a Savvy move, does that mean any move can be Savvy if you tack on enough showing off?

Basically yes. It's been a long time since I've read KYR, but stuff like Hogan "hulking up" or Cena's 5 Moves of Doom would be Savvy moves. As for what a savvy heel would be, I'd say Goldust is a pretty good example.

quote:

If you want a genuinely questionable wrestling game, check out Kayfabe. It has some interesting ideas -- players are supposed to play both the writing staff of a wrestling show *and* the wrestlers themselves. But I can't see how it would work out in real play.

Now at this point you're roleplaying running a Pro-wrestling franchise. Most wrestling RPG's assume that everything is in character, although I would love to see one that just runs with this idea and apply it to all the silly character concepts (Undertaker is a literal zombie, Mr. Fujiyama has for real hypnotic powers, etc)

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Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

Wrestling nerds complain about "cool heels," but there have been tons of them, going all the way back to Gorgeous George and further. Ric Flair was both a cool heel and a "chickenshit heel" and Savvy works for both.

theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.



SirPhoebos posted:

Now at this point you're roleplaying running a Pro-wrestling franchise. Most wrestling RPG's assume that everything is in character, although I would love to see one that just runs with this idea and apply it to all the silly character concepts (Undertaker is a literal zombie, Mr. Fujiyama has for real hypnotic powers, etc)

I want a game where both versions of wrestling are true. The matches are choreographed and the stories are fake, but it's super important that they do a great job, because their power is derived from the adulation and screams of the masses, and it's also just the way the wrestlers make money in public. Outside the ring, they have to go forth and fight the shadow war the people can't know about. Vampires, zombies and worse. The only thing standing in the way of the monsters enslaving society is the wrestlers, and when they're out of the ring, they don't have to hold back! Yokozuna's got his earthquake stomps, the Rock is literally hard as stone and so on.

And then the second book drops and oh poo poo, the monsters made a good enough offer! Now the heels of the wrestling world are just as evil outside the ring! Can the heroes of the squared circle manage to maintain kayfabe in a ring with a foe that would happily kill them if the lights went down?

Selachian
Oct 9, 2012



SirPhoebos posted:

Basically yes. It's been a long time since I've read KYR, but stuff like Hogan "hulking up" or Cena's 5 Moves of Doom would be Savvy moves. As for what a savvy heel would be, I'd say Goldust is a pretty good example.

The thing is, most of the Savvy moves given in the book are cheating and taunts, so it's easy to make a Savvy-based heel. Making a Savvy face is a lot harder -- I've seen more than one argument over whether "basic move with extra showboating" counts as Savvy.

NutritiousSnack
Jul 12, 2011


Halloween Jack posted:

Wrestling nerds complain about "cool heels," but there have been tons of them, going all the way back to Gorgeous George and further. Ric Flair was both a cool heel and a "chickenshit heel" and Savvy works for both.

It's less "nerds" and bookers like JR who have selective memory or a certain philosophy on how to set up matches

NutritiousSnack
Jul 12, 2011


taichara posted:

Really now?

I don't consider pointing out how Beasts are horrific abusers -- and glorified for being so -- being a troll, or making a "political argument", or "humanizing a political opponent". But McFarland sure had no problem flipping the hell out and basically calling me and everyone else in those rpg.net threads MRAs and worse for daring to not toe his party line and accept Beasts as pure and justified. Ditto those of us who were horrified by the passage where upsetting players at the table was held up as a good thing.

None of that shitshow had anything to do with trolling, or politics.

I completely agree on all of this but this. All of these actions indicate Matt doesn't handle criticism when applied to a game were a LOT of his personal politics are attached. While it's not natural to have a mental breakdown like he does when someone like you points out how his work protrays the exact opposite of what he wants it to, it's far from unheard of.

taichara
May 9, 2013

c:\>erase c:\reality.sys copy a:\gigacity\*.* c:


NutritiousSnack posted:

I completely agree on all of this but this. All of these actions indicate Matt doesn't handle criticism when applied to a game were a LOT of his personal politics are attached. While it's not natural to have a mental breakdown like he does when someone like you points out how his work protrays the exact opposite of what he wants it to, it's far from unheard of.

I meant that it wasn't trolling or politics on my part, or that of the vast majority of the other posters (iirc someone did eat a threadban for actual trolling).

Now, I totally believe that McFarland needed and needs to pull his head out his arse where his own sociopolitical issues are concerned.

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008



theironjef posted:

I want a game where both versions of wrestling are true. The matches are choreographed and the stories are fake, but it's super important that they do a great job, because their power is derived from the adulation and screams of the masses, and it's also just the way the wrestlers make money in public. Outside the ring, they have to go forth and fight the shadow war the people can't know about. Vampires, zombies and worse. The only thing standing in the way of the monsters enslaving society is the wrestlers, and when they're out of the ring, they don't have to hold back! Yokozuna's got his earthquake stomps, the Rock is literally hard as stone and so on.
I'm pretty sure that was the idea of a WWE comic book series at some point.

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.




Grimey Drawer

That sounds like a dark reboot of Hulk Hogan's Rock 'n' Wrestling. I like it.

SirPhoebos
Dec 10, 2007

WELL THAT JUST HAPPENED!

Evil Mastermind posted:

I'm pretty sure that was the idea of a WWE comic book series at some point.

Also there was an ARPG that THQ was working on before it went under that was this premise too. Concept art included Vince McMahon wearing powered armor that could transform into a limo

Mr. Maltose
Feb 16, 2011

The Guffless Girlverine


theironjef posted:

I want a game where both versions of wrestling are true. The matches are choreographed and the stories are fake, but it's super important that they do a great job, because their power is derived from the adulation and screams of the masses, and it's also just the way the wrestlers make money in public. Outside the ring, they have to go forth and fight the shadow war the people can't know about. Vampires, zombies and worse. The only thing standing in the way of the monsters enslaving society is the wrestlers, and when they're out of the ring, they don't have to hold back! Yokozuna's got his earthquake stomps, the Rock is literally hard as stone and so on.

And then the second book drops and oh poo poo, the monsters made a good enough offer! Now the heels of the wrestling world are just as evil outside the ring! Can the heroes of the squared circle manage to maintain kayfabe in a ring with a foe that would happily kill them if the lights went down?

I would also like a Lucha Underground game, yes.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

There is definitely a Lucha game...Lucha Hero, I think it's called? Where you play movie luchadores. Like, I don't know if matches are even a part of it, but you fight vampires and werewolves and robots and Aztec mummies, like El Santo did in his real job.

SirPhoebos
Dec 10, 2007

WELL THAT JUST HAPPENED!

Halloween Jack posted:

There is definitely a Lucha game...Lucha Hero, I think it's called? Where you play movie luchadores. Like, I don't know if matches are even a part of it, but you fight vampires and werewolves and robots and Aztec mummies, like El Santo did in his real job.

Samson vs the Vampire Women is one of my favorite MST3K episodes and was a perfect send-off for TV's Frank.

It's too bad I don't trust Onyx Path to make Luchador: The Mask without making it terrible in some manner.

Comrade Koba
Jul 2, 2007



theironjef posted:

I'll look into wrestling games! Based on a perfunctory googling, it looks like the PBTA one is both too good and too new for our purposes, but I bet there's some terrible ones out there.

There was a WWF "Basic Adventure Game" in 1993, but I guess it's pretty hard to find nowadays. On the other hand, it's an early 90's game so it's pretty much bound to be System Mastery Material.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


NutritiousSnack posted:

I completely agree on all of this but this. All of these actions indicate Matt doesn't handle criticism when applied to a game were a LOT of his personal politics are attached. While it's not natural to have a mental breakdown like he does when someone like you points out how his work protrays the exact opposite of what he wants it to, it's far from unheard of.

Well, there's having a mental breakdown, and then there's going "Whoa there buddy you're starting to sound like my strawman antagonists."

Count Chocula
Dec 25, 2011

WE HAVE TO CONTROL OUR ENVIRONMENT
IF YOU SEE ME POSTING OUTSIDE OF THE AUSPOL THREAD PLEASE TELL ME THAT I'M MISSED AND TO START POSTING AGAIN


Halloween Jack posted:

There is definitely a Lucha game...Lucha Hero, I think it's called? Where you play movie luchadores. Like, I don't know if matches are even a part of it, but you fight vampires and werewolves and robots and Aztec mummies, like El Santo did in his real job.

Feng Shui had the Luchacabras, Luchadore Chupacabras.

Servetus
Apr 1, 2010


Halloween Jack posted:

There is definitely a Lucha game...Lucha Hero, I think it's called? Where you play movie luchadores. Like, I don't know if matches are even a part of it, but you fight vampires and werewolves and robots and Aztec mummies, like El Santo did in his real job.

I think it's Lucha Libre or Lucha Libre Hero. I heard it called the former when i played it at a con.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/62173/Lucha-Libre-Hero?filters=0_0_0_10010_0&

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015


Halloween Jack posted:

There is definitely a Lucha game...Lucha Hero, I think it's called? Where you play movie luchadores. Like, I don't know if matches are even a part of it, but you fight vampires and werewolves and robots and Aztec mummies, like El Santo did in his real job.

Silent Legions has a Lucha Libre class in its appendix. Now El Santo can suplex Not-Cthulhu.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

theironjef posted:

And then the second book drops and oh poo poo, the monsters made a good enough offer! Now the heels of the wrestling world are just as evil outside the ring! Can the heroes of the squared circle manage to maintain kayfabe in a ring with a foe that would happily kill them if the lights went down?
You don't, like, think this hasn't happened in real life, do you?

Okay, so you just posted XCrawl today. I swear I thought I remember you guys making fun of the dungeon cheerleaders in the podcast. I must be confusing you making fun of the Rave Drow from Urban Arcana with another review.


Hey buttholes: If you want to burn your brains out trying to fix a game, fix XCrawl instead of Beast. What are you gonna do, brother, when Umber Hulkamania runs wild on you???

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

"Send in Boxbot!"



Halloween Jack posted:

You don't, like, think this hasn't happened in real life, do you?

Okay, so you just posted XCrawl today. I swear I thought I remember you guys making fun of the dungeon cheerleaders in the podcast. I must be confusing you making fun of the Rave Drow from Urban Arcana with another review.


Hey buttholes: If you want to burn your brains out trying to fix a game, fix XCrawl instead of Beast. What are you gonna do, brother, when Umber Hulkamania runs wild on you???

My level 12 Monk of the 36 Chambers of Shaolin gonna drop the Stone Cold Stunning Fist on you, is what.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:



Grimey Drawer

I'd drop it on Shadowrun. Instead of an elaborate alternate history explaining why there are demihumans on Earth and all that, they just pop up and we stick them into Crawls. Instead of all those weird Roman Empire references, you have megacorps.

But with D&D 4e's system.

Maxwell Lord fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Jan 18, 2017

Mr. Maltose
Feb 16, 2011

The Guffless Girlverine


Halloween Jack posted:

Hey buttholes: If you want to burn your brains out trying to fix a game, fix XCrawl instead of Beast. What are you gonna do, brother, when Umber Hulkamania runs wild on you???

This is p. dumb because X-Crawl is the anti-Beast: It's the easiest thing in the world to fix because it's a simple but powerful through-line for a setting and then you staple whatever system to it. It's just that it got stapled to a very bad system.

Ratoslov
Feb 15, 2012

Now prepare yourselves! You're the guests of honor at the Greatest Kung Fu Cannibal BBQ Ever!



Skip the whole backstory stuff and make it delightfully incoherent.

EDIT: You could take X-Crawl one step further and instead of making it 'What if D&D was sports?', make it 'What if D&D was sports entertainment?' Complete with you having a script to play into/deviate from, monsters showing up for work drunk so you've gotta help them look good for the crowd, face-heel turns, the ever-present steel chair, etc.

Ratoslov fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Jan 18, 2017

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Mr. Maltose posted:

This is p. dumb because X-Crawl is the anti-Beast: It's the easiest thing in the world to fix because it's a simple but powerful through-line for a setting and then you staple whatever system to it. It's just that it got stapled to a very bad system.

d20 is the ruiner.

The Lone Badger
Sep 24, 2007



There are definitely good-but-wrong systems for Xcrawl. Anything narrative-based, for example.

AnEdgelord
Dec 12, 2016



What if we staple Xcrawl's fluff to Beast's crunch? Some of those atavism could be refluffed as wrestling moves.

Ratoslov
Feb 15, 2012

Now prepare yourselves! You're the guests of honor at the Greatest Kung Fu Cannibal BBQ Ever!



LordAbaddon posted:

What if we staple Xcrawl's fluff to Beast's crunch? Some of those atavism could be refluffed as wrestling moves.

That is the RPG they make you play in the 9th circle of hell.

AnEdgelord
Dec 12, 2016



Ratoslov posted:

That is the RPG they make you play in the 9th circle of hell.

I suppose they do get bored of playing FATAL all the time

Count Chocula
Dec 25, 2011

WE HAVE TO CONTROL OUR ENVIRONMENT
IF YOU SEE ME POSTING OUTSIDE OF THE AUSPOL THREAD PLEASE TELL ME THAT I'M MISSED AND TO START POSTING AGAIN


You could have a Beast who's a twisted wrestling nerd straight out of a Mountain Goats song, who's Lair forces whatever environment it's in to obey X Crawl or wrestling tropes.
Just like wrestling nerds try and shoehorn wrestling terms into every type of story. So they call The Masquerade 'kayfabe', heroes 'faces' and Beasts 'heels', and their job is to be the best heel?

See, I've never even watched wrestling and I know this stuff. The Beast just does this to all of reality. The evil Hero says 'wrestling isn't real, you idiot'.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


I mean "No Children" does basically sum up how I feel about Beast in a nutshell...

I am drowning
there is no sign of land
you are coming down with me
hand in unlovable hand
and I hope you die
I hope we both die

Kurieg fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Jan 18, 2017

Hostile V
May 30, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.



Kurieg posted:

I mean "No Children" does basically sum up how I feel about Beast in a nutshell...

I am drowning
there is no sign of land
you are coming down with me
hand in unlovable hand
and I hope you die
I hope we both die

The initial idea behind Heroes and how they were pitched: Michael Myers Resplendent https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlA1yyWVoGU

Actual execution of Heroes and how they were written: Lovecraft in Brooklyn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrHgZRGLgo0

Count Chocula
Dec 25, 2011

WE HAVE TO CONTROL OUR ENVIRONMENT
IF YOU SEE ME POSTING OUTSIDE OF THE AUSPOL THREAD PLEASE TELL ME THAT I'M MISSED AND TO START POSTING AGAIN


One of those songs is my current online handle.

Why isn't Trace Italian from Wolf in White Van an RPG you can buy?
I asked John Darnielle about RPGs and he said he games with the Apocalypse World guy.

Like I said, oWoD and Beast make sense to me. That Lair thing is so cool.
Isn't The Beast also a Vampire term? Combine that with the crossover thing and Beasts could tempt other splats to be more monstrous - telling vamps to give in to their hunger, werewolves to eat people, mages to go full Faust. And when they do it creates Hunters/Heroes, which are basically the same thing!
Maybe give the Beasts a righteous cause, make them Antifa or something.

Hostile V
May 30, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.



Count Chocula posted:

Isn't The Beast also a Vampire term? Combine that with the crossover thing and Beasts could tempt other splats to be more monstrous - telling vamps to give in to their hunger, werewolves to eat people, mages to go full Faust. And when they do it creates Hunters/Heroes, which are basically the same thing!
Maybe give the Beasts a righteous cause, make them Antifa or something.
1: Yes.
2: They already do.
3: No they're not.
4: Stop trying to fix Beast. You cannot fix Beast.

Daeren
Aug 17, 2009

YER MUSTACHE IS CROOKED


Count Chocula posted:

Isn't The Beast also a Vampire term? Combine that with the crossover thing and Beasts could tempt other splats to be more monstrous - telling vamps to give in to their hunger, werewolves to eat people, mages to go full Faust. And when they do it creates Hunters/Heroes, which are basically the same thing!
Maybe give the Beasts a righteous cause, make them Antifa or something.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Deg7VrpHbM

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009




Is Count Chocula White Wolf Stymie or is that somebody else?

Either way do not respond to him.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


Nah, he just still thinks that Beast is a game about punching up and wants to defend it to the ends of the earth, just like Bellum Maga.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

It's only a matter of time before Onyx Path releases a book about witches who sit on your birthday cake.

Mr. Maltose posted:

This is p. dumb because X-Crawl is the anti-Beast: It's the easiest thing in the world to fix because it's a simple but powerful through-line for a setting and then you staple whatever system to it. It's just that it got stapled to a very bad system.
XCrawl: Finally Not Pathfinder Edition is the perfect opportunity to make all dwarves guidos and all elves rednecks.

Obligatum VII
May 5, 2014

Haunting you until no 8 arrives.

Kurieg posted:

Nah, he just still thinks that Beast is a game about punching up and wants to defend it to the ends of the earth, just like Bellum Maga.

He is one of the most egregious contrarians I have ever seen. If people liked Beast, he'd be on the exact opposite side of the fence.

The Vosgian Beast
Aug 13, 2011

Business is slow

Beast is probably fixable

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SirPhoebos
Dec 10, 2007

WELL THAT JUST HAPPENED!

Kurieg posted:

Nah, he just still thinks that Beast is a game about punching up and wants to defend it to the ends of the earth, just like Bellum Maga.

Yeah but otoh he's also in favor of the God Machine. Go figure.

Besides,

Count Chocula posted:

See, I've never even watched wrestling
That just tears it. :frogout:

EDIT: To be fair to CC, at least he's on topic with his contrarian opinions and doesn't just hop into the thread and out of nowhere start yelling about why Elminster is totally not a Mary Sue.

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