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Robindaybird posted:It's amazing not one person working on the book sees anything wrong with Candy's write up. I copied most of Candy's writeup word for word from the book for exactly this reason. Because I was reasonably certain people wouldn't believe the pithy summary of "They blame a rape victim for being raped." even within the context of a Beast book.
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Jan 22, 2017 03:45
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Someone should unironically write up a conspiracy of hunters who gain their power from the legends they build around themselves while monster hunting and steadfastly maintain their lack of knowledge about Beast, no matter how mad the Beast fans get.
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Jan 22, 2017 03:48
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quote:The trouble is what they call "Wrong" is something they barely understand and can't really define. It's "Wrong" because it's different, because it goes against the familiar status quo. A Hero’s instincts tell him that the ripples upending his dreamscape when he sleeps are not supposed to be there. "The trouble is, you see, that if you do know Right from Wrong, you can't choose Wrong. You just can't do it and live. So.. if I was a bad witch I could make Mister Salzella's muscles turn against his bones and break them where he stood... if I was bad. I could do things inside his head, change the shape he thinks he is, and he'd be down on what had been his knees and begging to be turned into a frog... if I was bad. I could leave him with a mind like a scrambled egg, listening to colors and hearing smells...if I was bad. Oh yes." There was another sigh, deeper and more heartfelt. "But I can't do none of that stuff. That wouldn't be Right." She gave a deprecating little chuckle. And if Nanny Ogg had been listening, she would have resolved as follows: that no maddened cackle from Black Aliss of infamous memory, no evil little giggle from some crazed Vampyre whose morals were worse than his spelling, no side-splitting guffaw from the most inventive torturer, was quite so unnerving as a happy little chuckle from a Granny Weatherwax about to do what's best.” ― Terry Pratchett, Maskerade
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Jan 22, 2017 03:54
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“The good are innocent and create justice. The bad are guilty, which is why they invent mercy.” Granny Weatherwax would make a great Hunter.
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Jan 22, 2017 04:26
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“Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed.” - G.K. Chesterton
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Jan 22, 2017 04:30
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It just occurred to me that one of the reasons I find Beast so galling is it how it starts out reading like some parody of the objectivist concept of the übermensch. What with being a self-absorbed superbeing feeding on the misery of others. But then it doubles back around with "actually the Beast is right and really is being held back by the untermensch who are wrong!"
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Jan 22, 2017 04:46
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Nuns with Guns posted:It just occurred to me that one of the reasons I find Beast so galling is it how it starts out reading like some parody of the objectivist concept of the übermensch. What with being a self-absorbed superbeing feeding on the misery of others. But then it doubles back around with "actually the Beast is right and really is being held back by the untermensch who are wrong!" Fun fact! Famous White Wolf prehistory game Exalted was originally written by a Burke-style conservative who hated Randianism and wanted to encode a nuanced critique of that particular 'superior being' idea into a historically grounded setting. Which is pretty rad. Although personally I like Exalted and the Solars without the total doom-and-gloom all-heroes-fail assumptions of 1e, I do love that it's very intentionally not the case that just being super strong and skilled means you're doing the right thing at all. E: Esme Weatherwax as a Hunter would have Integrity 10. "Do you know which one you are?" "This one." Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 05:13 on Jan 22, 2017 |
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Jan 22, 2017 05:09
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Well, it's nice to see absolutely nobody at Onyx Path with any pull has absolutely any desire to stop this disgusting mess of a gameline or clean it up in any way. And there's people on other message boards I've seen talking about how great it is! *sigh*
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Jan 22, 2017 05:43
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gourdcaptain posted:Well, it's nice to see absolutely nobody at Onyx Path with any pull has absolutely any desire to stop this disgusting mess of a gameline or clean it up in any way. And there's people on other message boards I've seen talking about how great it is! *sigh* Here and 4chan of all places are the only places i've seen be critical of it at all.
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Jan 22, 2017 06:16
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On the plus side, Beast does succeed in being a good crossover splat - by being infinitely worse than everything else, it means a great set up for a crossover game is "Let's put aside our differences to beat the poo poo out of those loving Beasts!"
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Jan 22, 2017 06:19
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LordAbaddon posted:Here and 4chan of all places are the only places i've seen be critical of it at all. People were super-critical of it basically everywhere when the Kickstarter came out. If they seem more positive now, that's probably because most places are less aggressive about hate-reading things they don't like, so they just stopped talking about it. I see almost no Beast threads on RPGnet these days. (Although, there are a lot less World of Darkness threads in general, although I'm not sure if that's because of failing interest or because everything tends to combine into megathreads more often.)
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Jan 22, 2017 06:20
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RPGnet also seems to have a forum culture that simply shies away from difficult conversations. It's easy to call RaHoWa or WoD: Gypsies garbage, but a misguided attempt to poo poo on internet Nazis by an active moderator who can't be convinced that it was misguided is ignored like your stereotypical Thanksgiving racist uncle. Which is gross in its own way.
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Jan 22, 2017 06:48
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Angry Salami posted:On the plus side, Beast does succeed in being a good crossover splat - by being infinitely worse than everything else, it means a great set up for a crossover game is "Let's put aside our differences to beat the poo poo out of those loving Beasts!"
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Jan 22, 2017 07:05
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The best thing about how bad Beast is that Demon actually is a better 'playing an oppressed minority' game than Beast, and it does it entirely unintentionally by being spy fiction. As a Demon, you need to deliberately take on the trappings and culture of the majority to hide against your oppressors. Indeed, your ability to avoid them weakens if you start acting against what society says you are (your Cover). As a Demon, the hunters have the advantage of weapons and numbers and organizations, and have a sympathetic populace and the State on their side. In fact, most of your hunters are outright state-sanctioned. Compare to Beast, where your Heroes are on average weaker and can't escalate like Angels can. As a Demon, the only way to change this state of affairs is to attack the system, but by doing so you reveal your existence and paint a target on your back. Isn't it interesting that this is a far better metaphor for being a disliked minority than what Beast gives?
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Jan 22, 2017 08:20
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Joe Slowboat posted:Fun fact! Famous White Wolf prehistory game Exalted was originally written by a Burke-style conservative who hated Randianism and wanted to encode a nuanced critique of that particular 'superior being' idea into a historically grounded setting. Which is pretty rad. Didn't the Exalted author also really hate Qin Shi Huangdi, hence his Wraith: the Oblivion portrayal?
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Jan 22, 2017 08:33
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MonsieurChoc posted:Didn't the Exalted author also really hate Qin Shi Huangdi, hence his Wraith: the Oblivion portrayal? I mean, I don't blame him. Dude was a prick.
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Jan 22, 2017 08:45
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MJ12 posted:The best thing about how bad Beast is that Demon actually is a better 'playing an oppressed minority' game than Beast, and it does it entirely unintentionally by being spy fiction. I thought this was said by Demon co-developer Rose Bailey to be on purpose? MonsieurChoc posted:Didn't the Exalted author also really hate Qin Shi Huangdi, hence his Wraith: the Oblivion portrayal? The Emperor in Wraith was actually pretty badass as I recall. I thought Ghost Nobunaga invaded Ghost China and summarily bisected the Ghost Emperor before their armies, and then a terrifying dragon comically emerged from the lower half of the Emperor and swallowed Nobunaga in a single gulp. (Maybe I'm remembering this backwards?) I'm not sure Grabowski hated Qin Shi Huangdi any more than your typical historical monster, but rather the apologism of movies like Hero (and a lot of other Chinese media). While a pretty cool movie, it basically pushed the usual "hard men making hard decisions" people always fall back on any time they try to defend truly terrible people. Which, you know, is kind of one of the critiques of humanity that Exalted brought to the table when it was at its best. That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 09:59 on Jan 22, 2017 |
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Jan 22, 2017 09:53
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Kurieg posted:I copied most of Candy's writeup word for word from the book for exactly this reason. Because I was reasonably certain people wouldn't believe the pithy summary of "They blame a rape victim for being raped." even within the context of a Beast book. There aren't a whole lot of things that cause me to indulge in pettiness like"I hope the associated company will crash and burn spectacularly". Beast is one of those. wiegieman posted:Someone should unironically write up a conspiracy of hunters who gain their power from the legends they build around themselves while monster hunting and steadfastly maintain their lack of knowledge about Beast, no matter how mad the Beast fans get. I'd much prefer just coming up with stuff that replaces the and is incompatible with the Beast cosmology.
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Jan 22, 2017 10:30
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Strawman: the Ascribing is not a very good game.
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Jan 22, 2017 13:15
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That Old Tree posted:I thought this was said by Demon co-developer Rose Bailey to be on purpose? Yeah, but that revealed that the Emperor had been replaced by a Malfean centuries ago.
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Jan 22, 2017 13:43
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MJ12 posted:The best thing about how bad Beast is that Demon actually is a better 'playing an oppressed minority' game than Beast, and it does it entirely unintentionally by being spy fiction. Also, Promethean. Prometheans are perpetually on the move because reality itself hates them. Anywhere a Promethean settles really will start to become a wasteland and awful if not downright lethal for normal people to live in, and everyone will, sooner or later, notice the stranger in their community and react to them... badly. Promethean is a game about playing a social outcast learning to become part of society and learning what it means to be human.
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Jan 22, 2017 14:10
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Cythereal posted:Also, Promethean. Prometheans are perpetually on the move because reality itself hates them. Anywhere a Promethean settles really will start to become a wasteland and awful if not downright lethal for normal people to live in, and everyone will, sooner or later, notice the stranger in their community and react to them... badly. Promethean is a game about playing a social outcast learning to become part of society and learning what it means to be human. Which is why having a Beast run into Prometheans will end in tears for one of the two parties.
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Jan 22, 2017 14:15
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Every nWoD/OP splat has some conceptual overlap with Beast but takes it in a better, more compelling direction. That's a big problem with Beast as a splat. The only new territory it can cover is not shying away from being a horrific monster, while the other monsters consider that a bad ending. It's an entire game line for playing Eeeeevil PCs, and it hits all the problems you get from running an Eeeeevil campaign.
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Jan 22, 2017 16:15
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Except Beast is trying to convince you that you're totally a good guy and everyone who says otherwise is a hater. Now I need a bit of whimsy to wash that Beast taste out of my mouth... Super Secret Magical Girl Fan Splat posted:Power Stat: Kokoro Much better.
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Jan 22, 2017 18:01
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Kurieg posted:Which is why having a Beast run into Prometheans will end in tears for one of the two parties. Given the Beast and Promethean fiction pretty much reads like a deranged stalker trying to force a Gay/Bi or Trans person back into the closet because "Things were better". I also noticed the new book seem to have also drop the idea of other Supernaturals instantly loving Beasts
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Jan 22, 2017 19:23
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Every one of these WoD entries reinforces my belief that it is the most poorly managed and least fun gameline ever.
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Jan 22, 2017 19:28
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:Every one of these WoD entries reinforces my belief that it is the most poorly managed and least fun gameline ever. Well FATAL exists so i'm not sure about that. It can probably crack the top 20 though Edit: Be aware that this only applies if when you say "WoD" you mean "Beast" because Mage, Hunter, and Demon are 
AnEdgelord fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Jan 22, 2017 |
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Jan 22, 2017 19:36
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Yeah, World of Darkness is one of those things where you have to pick the parts you like and ignore the rest. It's always had some problematic bullshit going on regardless of the era, only the amount and egregriousness of the bullshit varies. I guess that's why something like Beast doesn't cause a real lashback. People who enjoy the WoD are already so used to shrugging off genetically superior gypsies or menses magic or furry inserts that Beast is only really unique in just how many problems are baked into the core. The only real rival I can think is Changeling: the Dreaming, but even its confused tone-deafness feels mild compared to Beast.
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Jan 22, 2017 19:49
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Vampire 2e and Demon are really cool! There's still a lot of cruft, though. But, eh, RPGs.
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Jan 22, 2017 19:50
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It's ironic that D&D-based games that was laughed at in the 90's as "kid's stuff" is now seen as the innovative force and has the most mass-market appeal(even if just for Millennial nostalgia's sake), and WoD, once the hip, edgy alternative in 90's RPG's, seems like a stodgy company still trying to relive its glory days while not recognizing the basic flaws in its mechanics and fiction.
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Jan 22, 2017 21:31
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Well the issue is that right now the "World of Darkness" is two entities. Onyx Path Publishing is creating the "new World of Darkness" gamelines, now known as Chronicles of Darkness, and outside of Beast (Which is one HELL of an outlier) their stuff has been pretty good so far. Meanwhile, Paradox Interactive has bought the rights to the Old world of Darkness, which is now the "One World of Darkness" and seem to see the stodgy out-of-touch 90's-ness as a feature, not a bug.
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Jan 22, 2017 21:38
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Simian_Prime posted:It's ironic that D&D-based games that was laughed at in the 90's as "kid's stuff" is now seen as the innovative force and has the most mass-market appeal(even if just for Millennial nostalgia's sake), and WoD, once the hip, edgy alternative in 90's RPG's, seems like a stodgy company still trying to relive its glory days while not recognizing the basic flaws in its mechanics and fiction. e: Yeah that too
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Jan 22, 2017 21:38
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Well, D&D is only just above abandoned for the amount of resources they get from Hasbro these days. The amount of full-time employees they have on the line itself isn't much different than a smaller company than Evil Hat or Palladium. Presumably they have more resources to throw at a book in terms of budget, artist contacts, and marketing, but D&D right now is largely living on massive name recognition and the hard work of its remaining employees (regardless of what you think of them or 5th), and the line is similar in that it seems to exist largely just to keep the IP active.
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Jan 22, 2017 21:57
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Kurieg posted:Well the issue is that right now the "World of Darkness" is two entities. Onyx Path Publishing is creating the "new World of Darkness" gamelines, now known as Chronicles of Darkness, and outside of Beast (Which is one HELL of an outlier) their stuff has been pretty good so far. Meanwhile, Paradox Interactive has bought the rights to the Old world of Darkness, which is now the "One World of Darkness" and seem to see the stodgy out-of-touch 90's-ness as a feature, not a bug. They belong to Paradox now? Man, a grand strategy game in which you play a vampire who slowly accumulates power and influence over the centuries through intrigue and backstabbing would be kinda rad.
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Jan 22, 2017 22:29
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Doresh posted:They belong to Paradox now? Man, a grand strategy game in which you play a vampire who slowly accumulates power and influence over the centuries through intrigue and backstabbing would be kinda rad. Their parent company. Paradox Development Studio is probably never going to let the WoD touch their games.
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Jan 22, 2017 22:31
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Paradox shunted the license over to Focus and now Cyanide(blood bowl 2, styx, a bad diabloclone called loki) is making a werewolf game.
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Jan 22, 2017 23:01
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Kurieg posted:Well the issue is that right now the "World of Darkness" is two entities. Onyx Path Publishing is creating the "new World of Darkness" gamelines, now known as Chronicles of Darkness, and outside of Beast (Which is one HELL of an outlier) their stuff has been pretty good so far. I can understand why you repressed it, but there's also Changing Breeds
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Jan 22, 2017 23:28
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Nuns with Guns posted:I can understand why you repressed it, but there's also Changing Breeds Which was published like a decade ago, long before White Wolf got bought out by anybody or restructured itself in to Onyx Path.
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Jan 22, 2017 23:40
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Beast is quickly becoming less a trainwreck and a 10 train pile up
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Jan 22, 2017 23:42
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Daeren posted:Which was published like a decade ago, long before White Wolf got bought out by anybody or restructured itself in to Onyx Path. I'm just saying the animal taint was in nWoD before long Beast
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Jan 22, 2017 23:43
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