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Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

IF YOU SEE ME SHITTING UP A THREAD ABOUT CRITICALLY ACCLAIMED MMORPG FINAL FANTASY XIV PLEASE REMIND ME THAT I QUIT THE GAME BECAUSE IT COULD NOT HANDLE MY LOFTY CRITICISMS OF VIOLENCE IN MEDIA

AND ALSO TO SHUT THE HELL UP

Barudak posted:

Having once suffered through part of Mortal Kombat Mytholgies: Sub-Zero I am obligated to inform you that Sub-Zero and his allies are Lin Kuei and not Ninjas.

Scorpion though, hes a filthy Ninja.

This is something that annoys both of them in MK10. :v: Sub-Zero is not a ninja. He is Chinese, and gets rather annoyed at everyone's habit of calling him a ninja.

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Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

To witness titanic events is always dangerous, usually painful, and often fatal.



Cythereal posted:

This is something that annoys both of them in MK10. :v: Sub-Zero is not a ninja. He is Chinese, and gets rather annoyed at everyone's habit of calling him a ninja.
Ohhhhhhhhhhh

Chinese ninja warrior

With your heart so... cold

Sub-Zero

Nuns with Guns
Jul 23, 2010

....?
Okay, I'm going to drag the Beast chat out some more because both the Hunter supplement and the Hero supplement are making me wonder things. Like... Beasts are supposed to be primordial entities that have been around since the dawn of humanity and only really die when they're killed off, right? And the books keep laying out pitches for groups and networks of them like they form respectably-sized communities in different areas. Obviously they're also meant to freely intermingle and party with the different splats who are all unconsciously compelled to like them. So, why do they also seem to play up Beasts as some big mystery, both to some Hunter groups and randomly to other monster splats? They have pretty explicit feeding patterns, so a bunch of them clustering in one place and turning the area into a fear-ridden hellhole should be a pretty clear beacon to anyone who wants to hunt them. Plus a lot of them don't seem like they care much about hiding how awful they are, you'd think one of the few factions/splats that aren't forced to tolerate them would go around systematically wiping out big hives...

Kellsterik
Mar 30, 2012
That's more just a broader Chronicles/World of Darkness thing. It's assumed by default that every supernatural type has only the barest knowledge of the other types, if any, even when that strains suspension of disbelief. It supports the developers' goal of keeping the types distinct and self-contained, I think. I always read that as a device to make the writer's job easier, not particularly an in-character truth of the setting that individual STs need to adhere to.

JackMann
Aug 11, 2010

Secure. Contain. Protect.
Fallen Rib
Which just makes the "Beasts are everyone's best buddy!" thing all the more baffling.

Also, reading the Union bit made me realize part of what bothers me so much about Beast. The justifications they use remind me a lot of the justifications pedophiles use, down to the victim blaming, abuse tactics, and the attempt to tie other people's objections towards their actions to actual oppression against gays and trans people.

bewilderment
Nov 22, 2007
man what



In Vampire the Requiem the 'Christian vampire' group is Lancea et Sanctum. They justify their existence and blood-drinking by saying that they're god's chosen monsters and are meant to be the wolves, keeping humanity, the sheep, on the straight and narrow and moral and whatnot. They generally have a code against harming people who "don't deserve it" but this is as nebulous as it needs to be for the game purposes.

The difference between the L&S and Beast's justification of 'teaching lessons' is that it's clear that L&S is an in-character justification that may or may not be true in order to help vampires cope with the reality of "how can I be a 'good person'/'good Christian' if I harm people by existing".

Meanwhile the whole Beast 'teaching lessons' thing is similar on its face, except the Beast corebook takes it as a given for the most part, instead of it being an in-character justification, even though there's no actual mechanical support for this being the case.

Mr. Maltose
Feb 16, 2011

The Guffless Girlverine
That's because the Wolves of God bit was actually designed for and not the worlds shittiest band-aid thrown on.

Ratoslov
Feb 15, 2012

Now prepare yourselves! You're the guests of honor at the Greatest Kung Fu Cannibal BBQ Ever!

The 'Beasts Teach Lessons' thing is really good for one thing, though, and that's inspiring awesome pre-murder one-liners for Hunters.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:

JackMann posted:

Also, reading the Union bit made me realize part of what bothers me so much about Beast. The justifications they use remind me a lot of the justifications pedophiles use, down to the victim blaming, abuse tactics, and the attempt to tie other people's objections towards their actions to actual oppression against gays and trans people.

Again, this was the huge and major problem with the original kickstarter copy. Beasts were abused and picked on for being "Different" when they were younger, but then they came into their powers and became the abusers. This was considered right and just, revenge for their childhood wrongs. Heroes meanwhile were abused by Beasts and rather than becoming abusers themselves, devoted themselves to stopping the abuse. This makes them worse than thirteen giga-Hitlers. It's such an insane interpretation of the abuse narrative that it sickens me that Matt wasn't able to see it. And it's even worse that there are some marginalized people out there who have internalized the narrative so hard that they buy into Beast's shtick whole hog.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.

bewilderment posted:

The next Chronicles of Darkness gameline is Deviant: The Renegade where you play humans who were experimented on or changed somehow, and then escaped and try to hide from, or get revenge on, the organisations that did this to them.
I wouldn't be surprised if The Merrick Institute is a bit of a teaser for that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SujWTm9D0H8

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!

Barudak posted:

Having once suffered through part of Mortal Kombat Mytholgies: Sub-Zero I am obligated to inform you that Sub-Zero and his allies are Lin Kuei and not Ninjas.

A counterpoint:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKAtUeWCfrE

Alien Rope Burn fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Feb 10, 2017

Desiden
Mar 13, 2016

Mindless self indulgence is SRS BIZNS

Kurieg posted:

Again, this was the huge and major problem with the original kickstarter copy. Beasts were abused and picked on for being "Different" when they were younger, but then they came into their powers and became the abusers. This was considered right and just, revenge for their childhood wrongs. Heroes meanwhile were abused by Beasts and rather than becoming abusers themselves, devoted themselves to stopping the abuse. This makes them worse than thirteen giga-Hitlers. It's such an insane interpretation of the abuse narrative that it sickens me that Matt wasn't able to see it. And it's even worse that there are some marginalized people out there who have internalized the narrative so hard that they buy into Beast's shtick whole hog.

While Beast is pretty uniquely terrible, superficial readings of empowerment narratives are sadly common. I forget if it was here or somewhere else on the intarwebs I mentioned it, but True Blood had a significant chunk of the fanbase who insisted the whole thing was a LGBT metaphor, because the writer said it was. Nevermind that if taken as a metaphor, then the message was essentially the wet dream of the religious right. Gay people in this coda are only using the agenda of equal rights to get close enough to gay-rape you, and are secretly run by a religious version of NAMBLA. But no, the writers said it was an empowerment story for gay people, so it is!

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

IF YOU SEE ME SHITTING UP A THREAD ABOUT CRITICALLY ACCLAIMED MMORPG FINAL FANTASY XIV PLEASE REMIND ME THAT I QUIT THE GAME BECAUSE IT COULD NOT HANDLE MY LOFTY CRITICISMS OF VIOLENCE IN MEDIA

AND ALSO TO SHUT THE HELL UP
If you really want an abuse-victims-empower-themselves story, Promethean is right over there. Or Changeling, or hell even Hunter.

Nuns with Guns
Jul 23, 2010

....?

Kellsterik posted:

That's more just a broader Chronicles/World of Darkness thing. It's assumed by default that every supernatural type has only the barest knowledge of the other types, if any, even when that strains suspension of disbelief. It supports the developers' goal of keeping the types distinct and self-contained, I think. I always read that as a device to make the writer's job easier, not particularly an in-character truth of the setting that individual STs need to adhere to.

Yeah, like, I can get that it doesn't scream "this is a 'World of Darkness'" if nothing about the monsters is mysterious and they have extensive social and historical links to one another. Switching between "BWUH? HUH!?" and the really on-point attacks some groups have against Beasts (like from the the working class "normals" of The Union) feels like having your cake and eating it, too.

But maybe that's just an unfortunate outgrowth of adding more and more monsters to a setting; it starts feeling a bit crowded if every dark alley really is occupied by something dangerous

Kurieg posted:

Technically that's a Rat.
if you don't get the joke

Actually, I've been looking at the playtest draft for this recently, but just looked like D&D 5e with doggies. Is it any good?

Green Intern
Dec 29, 2008

Loon, Crazy and Laughable

I heard that Pugmire (man what a bad name) was kind of boring?

JackMann
Aug 11, 2010

Secure. Contain. Protect.
Fallen Rib
Back when they first were talking about it, it was pretty much just a d20 supplement with dogs. Now I guess it's a d20 supplement with dogs and advantage/disadvantage? I guess we'll find out soon what it's like.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:
Mechanically it's somewhere between 5e and dungeon world. The classes are very open ended and advance entirely though feats (which you get every level), and equipment is slimmed down as only your weapon is really a mechanical object, what proficiency you have determines your armor class, it's just assumed you have it. Unfortunately they inherited the 5e rule where you have to choose between an asi or a feat, which is a question that always has a wrong answer, even more so when it's "do you want access to your next level of spells or more intelligence so you can actually hit with them?"

That said he tried to solve LFQW in am interesting way that I sort of like.

Also I like dogs and it's post apocalyptic fantasy with dogs that cast spells using the dark and eldritch power of your Apple watch.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

Nuns with Guns posted:

Yeah, like, I can get that it doesn't scream "this is a 'World of Darkness'" if nothing about the monsters is mysterious and they have extensive social and historical links to one another. Switching between "BWUH? HUH!?" and the really on-point attacks some groups have against Beasts (like from the the working class "normals" of The Union) feels like having your cake and eating it, too.

But maybe that's just an unfortunate outgrowth of adding more and more monsters to a setting; it starts feeling a bit crowded if every dark alley really is occupied by something dangerous


Actually, I've been looking at the playtest draft for this recently, but just looked like D&D 5e with doggies. Is it any good?

The better Hunter stuff makes it clear that most hunters can't and don't make fine distinctions between monsters that act similarly. The worse Hunter stuff is overly line-specific.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

IF YOU SEE ME SHITTING UP A THREAD ABOUT CRITICALLY ACCLAIMED MMORPG FINAL FANTASY XIV PLEASE REMIND ME THAT I QUIT THE GAME BECAUSE IT COULD NOT HANDLE MY LOFTY CRITICISMS OF VIOLENCE IN MEDIA

AND ALSO TO SHUT THE HELL UP

Mors Rattus posted:

The better Hunter stuff makes it clear that most hunters can't and don't make fine distinctions between monsters that act similarly. The worse Hunter stuff is overly line-specific.

For example, evil dream monsters? Could be Beasts, sure. Could be Changelings. Could be Mages. Could be Sin-Eaters. Could be something the DM cooked up that isn't an actual game line monster. Only a very specialized Hunter cadre would know - or particularly care - about the differences between all these different critters that prey on people in their dreams.

The Sin of Onan
Oct 11, 2012

And below,
watched by eyes of steel
we dreamt

Desiden posted:

While Beast is pretty uniquely terrible, superficial readings of empowerment narratives are sadly common. I forget if it was here or somewhere else on the intarwebs I mentioned it, but True Blood had a significant chunk of the fanbase who insisted the whole thing was a LGBT metaphor, because the writer said it was. Nevermind that if taken as a metaphor, then the message was essentially the wet dream of the religious right. Gay people in this coda are only using the agenda of equal rights to get close enough to gay-rape you, and are secretly run by a religious version of NAMBLA. But no, the writers said it was an empowerment story for gay people, so it is!

Yes, I was trying to explain the concept of Beast and why it's terrible to a friend who was wondering what I was writing, and True Blood was exactly the comparison she made. I know little about the show, but you and she make it sound pretty apt.

Count Chocula posted:

Yeah I dunno if this came out pre or post Stranger Things (I know the 'Dream Warrior' bit comes from a Nightmare on Elm Street movie) but I love the idea of playing teen escapees from MK Ultra/The Shop from Firestarter/the lab from Beyond the Black Rainbow/drat there's a ton of shady govt psychic labs in fiction.

It'd make a fun campaign. I'd dial down the horror though, and give them a sympathetic adult like the sherrif guy from Stranger Things. Just a bunch of teens, trying to survive.

The D&Dness of the party roles could be intentional if they're all gamers.

Tooth and Nail is not a week old by this point, so definitely post.

I agree the concept is fun. I don't know if it came across - maybe I should go back and rewrite that bit - but the problems I have with TMI's execution are basically "you have to build towards these roles with Merit dots, so your choice is either 'be good at one role and poo poo at the others' or 'be not great at some/all of the roles,' and I think that total lack of flexibility goes against a lot of the design concepts of NWoD," and "the way they've set things up, at any given time, two of the four roles will be doing nothing interesting." Point A and point B then feed off each other; since your TMI character's abilities are bought with likely-somewhat-scarce Merit dots, you can't excel in more than one role unless you're fairly high in experience, and that means you can't have the characters whose roles are doing nothing in a given moment switch to a different role that's relevant to the situation at hand.

Cythereal posted:

If you really want an abuse-victims-empower-themselves story, Promethean is right over there. Or Changeling, or hell even Hunter.

That's the part that puzzles me the most. We already have the NWoD game of being a supernatural abuse victim, or being unfairly shunned and persecuted by society. More, as you point out, than one. Even if it wasn't a piece of poo poo, Beast is pretending to fill a gap that really wasn't there.

Kurieg posted:

which is a question that always has a wrong answer, even more so when it's "do you want access to your next level of spells or more intelligence so you can actually hit with them?"

That said he tried to solve LFQW in am interesting way that I sort of like.

That sounds like a question with two wrong answers; be kept from learning cool high-powered spells or be unable to use the spells you learn.

I am a dumb: what's LFQW?

AweStriker
Oct 6, 2014

The Sin of Onan posted:


I am a dumb: what's LFQW?

"Linear Fighters, Quadratic Wizards", or the phenomenon where the rate at which wizards get new cool stuff continually increases whereas fighters just get bigger numbers.

megane
Jun 20, 2008



Ratoslov posted:

The 'Beasts Teach Lessons' thing is really good for one thing, though, and that's inspiring awesome pre-murder one-liners for Hunters.

:regd09: : "I-I was only trying to kill you to teach you a lesson!!"

:clint: : "Don't worry. I got the Cliff's Notes." (drops Beast off a cliff)

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:
Basically, casters have "Spell Points" in addition to their hit points, and casting a spell eats up a number of spell points equal to it's level. Your spell point pool is compratively small but you can use your stamina dice (5e's healing dice) Either to heal your hit point pool or spell point pool. This also makes it so that constitution is a highly desireable stat for casters and your wizard is going to be as beefy, if not more so, than your fighterdin.

They also got rid of iterative attacks and made it so cantrips don't scale, so it's more "How do you do damage" Rather than "How much theoretical damage can you do?" That said the game also tops out at level 10 so it doesn't really need iterative attacks since stuff hopefully won't scale that high.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

The monster-as-cautionary-tale was already done better by Legend Slashers, anyway.

'If you do <X>, the Man with the Rose/Nailhead/Scarred Woman/Jimmy Noteeth will get you' was kind of their thing, anyway.

...and explicitly described as still being a monstrous overreaction even when the thing they were triggered by was a bad thing to do.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:

megane posted:

:regd09: : "I-I was only trying to kill you to teach you a lesson!!"

:clint: : "Don't worry. I got the Cliff's Notes." (drops Beast off a cliff)

Mors Rattus posted:

The monster-as-cautionary-tale was already done better by Legend Slashers, anyway.

'If you do <X>, the Man with the Rose/Nailhead/Scarred Woman/Jimmy Noteeth will get you' was kind of their thing, anyway.

...and explicitly described as still being a monstrous overreaction even when the thing they were triggered by was a bad thing to do.
Just gonna quote myself from october here.

Kurieg posted:

Hunter: the Vigil

quote:

“If it bleeds, we can kill it,” describes the typical hunter’s view of Beasts. It’s a simplistic, reductive attitude, one designed to insulate them from the idea that they might be killing a thinking, feeling being. In itself, that’s not terribly unusual: any hunter who’s gone after a vampire or a witch has faced the conundrum. The difference is that Beasts know the script: their arguments are less, “perhaps it is you who is truly the monster,” than “what gives you the right to kill monsters?” For hunters used to self-justification and equivocation from their prey, that sort of reversal can prompt some soul-searching.
Except most Hunters would have an answer to that. "This gun", "God", or "Using the Power of Satan a Lucifuge has the right to kill monsters."

Instead of using Beasts as an antagonist in a Hunter chronicle though have you considered using Heroes?!!?!?!?!? They're the dark mirror to Hunters! They should make the Hunters ask hard questions!!!!!! Also Hunters very very rarely turn into Heroes, something about the "Hunter Response" supplanting the normal Hero reflex or something.

Also Beasts can't normally form kinships with Hunters unless they come from a bloodline like the Lucifuge, or are a slasher.

Beasts can form Kinships with Slashers.

I feel like I should just be keeping a tally of reasons why everyone in the Chronicles of Darkness should kill Beasts on sight.

The game seems to think that "NO U" is every Hunter's kryptonite and they'll immediately fall to their knees weeping the minute the Beast pulls out their wallet with a kid's photo in it.

Kurieg fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Feb 10, 2017

Desiden
Mar 13, 2016

Mindless self indulgence is SRS BIZNS
Given how everything else about why Beasts aren't unequivocally the bad guys for everything boils down to "writer fiat", I suppose "make hunters soul search in a way they don't with more ambiguous monsters" is fully within the setting dictated parameters of Beast.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


Rifts World Book 8: Japan Part 12: “At some point between the ages of 14 and 18 (the character may have performed some missions as a normal ninja before then), candidates with the right physical and psychological conditions are selected for juicer conversion.”

Character Classes

For some reason all the New Empire classes are relisted here, and then we get into the Republic of Japan classes.


”Oh, hey, didn’t see you there, we just pose like this all the time."

Cyberoid O.C.C.

This sounds more like a health condition. "Everybody knows cyberoids burn and itch, but our nanotech cream offers swift relief!"

These punks love some cyber, and really, I feel like they just called them cyberoids because cyberpunk was already a name of another game. They love computers and cybernetics and some spend time "on-line", organize into a "gang", and go get "jacked-up". (Quote marks are theirs.) Though many are just basically social groups, others get sucked in the world of the yakuza who will not be mentioned otherwise. Other slang that's thrown around without purpose:
  • Street Soldier is a cyberoid that handles illegal data or contraband.
  • Holding refers to holding contraband, running refers to delivering it.
  • Cyberoid Punks are cyberoids that live "on the edge" (once again, their quotation marks) and engage with the criminal underworld. They're also called Cyberoid Weasels or - hilariously - "Cy-Wees". I’m 98% sure cy-wees are also what you get when you have an malfunctioning bionic dick.
So, yeah, somebody at Palladium had a copy of Cyberpunk 2020 or Shadowrun open while writing this class, or a least a dog-eared copy of Neuromancer, all of which predates this by around a half-decade or more. As a class, well, they're like City Rats with slightly more skills and with a strange drawback that if they have an Intelligence under 12 their skill abilities are reduced. That's right, only 25% of characters rolled up will get to use its class to the fullest, and the City Rat O.C.C. is already one of my "three worst classes from the corebook", so... yeah. Being a Cyberoid is pretty crap. They're useful at hacking but hacking is a bit poo poo, with your chances going into the shitter if you try and hack corporate or government computers - you know, the kind you'd actually want to hack into?

They wanted cool cyberpunk hackers but don't want to give them any agency, whee. Palladium Books!


”I am too a real samurai! I’m Kakita Robaato of the Crane Clan!”

Cyber-Samurai
a.k.a. The "False" Samurai


We get a whole paragraph reminding us that samurai are special and ancient and traditiona. Well, some Republic cyberoids apparently have legit samurai ancestry and have decided modelling themselves after an oppressive warrior class is cool again. They use cybernetics, vibro-blades, explosive arrows, and motorcycles in place of traditional weapons, and some even obey the samurai code. Others are wannabes like the "cyber-ronin" who, rather than losing their master to become ronin, decide it's just more rad to be masterless to begin within. Of course, "real" samurai think these guys are scummy imitations and sometimes it devolves into dueling-

Wait, so what makes a "real" samurai? Reading back on the Traditional Samurai Warrior O.C.C., they get magic swords that only work for somebody who is a genuine noble warrior sort. It also implies that any samurai sword of sufficient quality works as well. So the only thing differentiating "true" samurai is a magic sword that confirms that, yes, they have the samurai spirit, and some additional training. So I guess they're upset that some don't have their magic badge of stabbing, even though there's really nothing preventing a cyber-samurai from getting anything a "true" samurai has other than their anti-tech snobbery.

As a class, they're partial cyborgs (you know, the crappy kind of cyborg) and get a choice of different cybernetic and bionic features. They can also learn the same samurai tricks true samurai can, further proving my point that ownership of a magic sword is not a great basis for a warrior caste. They get some more skills than regular cyborgs, and are.... kind of alright? I mean, they're not going to be as bad-rear end as a full-on cyborg but they at least will have some unique tricks.

Of course you only have a 42% chance of being able to play one, whereas anybody can play a combat cyborg. Game balance? This is verisimilitude!


”So, I’m going to drive at one hundred miles per hour, and then just stab them with this… what do you mean that’s a bad plan?”

Tech-Ninja O.C.C.

Oh, man, it's time for the ninja parade! Oh, you don't see them? Well, that's the ninja parade for you.

Naturally, the ninja never actually went away in modern pre-rifts Japan, they just forgot all their cool magic tricks and got technology instead. Naturally, this leads to the painfully predictable rivalry between the tech-ninja and traditional ninjas, as if “real” ninjas would honestly give a gently caress. It notes that most of the time they leave the black PJs behind and have some cover role instead, and these are supposed to be those that focus on infiltration, theft, and sabotage - assassination is generally left to enhanced ninja types like juicers and cyborgs. It even recommends that the ninja keep his role a secret from other PCs because ninja secrets. Sure, sure.

They can still pick up ninjutsu as a hand-to-hand style, but bizarrely are the only Republic ninja types that can learn it. They get cyber-armor like cyber-knights do, and some modest implants, and a fairly robust skill set focused on sneaking, hacking, and melee combat.

You have only about 17% chance to qualify to play as one of these guys.


You'll see the rising sun motif a lot in this art...

Ninja Juicer

Yes, this is the ninja-flavored version of the super-steroid warrior from the corebook. So, most of these are created for ninja clans by H-Brand and other shady corporations, since ninja are willing to die for the clan - or rather, are willing to brainwash certain "not overtly bright" members at a young age (14-18)... yeah, 15 year old juicer ninja assassins, slightly problematic... and train them in special meditation techniques that help extend their juicing lifespan (but not by much, like an extra year or so). Because of the cost involved with the process and training, they ironically aren't used as disposable assets unless they're nearing their "die by" date. It's noted a select few are allowed to detox and become ninja cyborgs, but most just die. H-Brand and Ichto also sometimes sell the ninja juicing process to those outside the ninja clans, but those are use the regular Juicer class.

Numbers-wise, they have reduced strength compared to normal juicers, but can hide the juicer jitteriness for a hour to a few hours through meditation... because meditation is magic... and get enhanced stealth and acrobatics. Of course, once their meditation might runs out, they can get revealed as a twitchy juicer, or-

Rifts World Book 8: Japan posted:

... a very manic individual, which can be strange under most circumstances in Japanese society).

:rolleyes:

Because it's totally normal in America, yeah? Also they're so sneaky they "will tend to startle and scare people around him", "which will make most civilians suspicious and afraid". Hokay. Unlike tech-ninja, they can't learn ninjutsu for no stated or apparent reason. I presume the answer is "game balance", but given that this game lets you play a giant phoenix-demigod that self-resurrects and can summon volcanoes, it's all pretty relative. They get a decent chunk of sneaky skills, and in a surprise, have no stat requirements - anybody can qualify! They do get a tracer implant, which seems a little problematic for ninja if somebody figures out the signal, but it's meant to leash those trying to run away, I suppose.


... a lot of rising suns.

Ninja Crazy

... is a dumb idea, but we get them anyway. Ninjas have embraced taking on mental implants that make one highly unstable, apparently. Unlike normal crazies, they can resist their growing insanity to an extent because of... wait for it...

:siren: MEDITATION :siren:

Yes, meditation, the catch-all cure-all that extends life, cures insanity, and makes your kitchen knives sharper than they've ever been! Wait, that last one was pyramid power, but that's a different Rifts book. They also have a tech-ninja trained in psychology assigned as a minder. Due to meditation and therapy, they have slightly better psionics to start... but don't get more as they level up, like normal crazies? It's not really clear if that’s intended or an oversight. They can control their insanity roughly for a week at a time, but the GM is supposed to roll secretly so that the crazy doesn't know when they're doing to crack. They get a pretty decent skill package as a hacker, saboteur, and assassin, but can't learn ninjutsu. Go figure. Like the juicer, they get a tracer chip to make sure their ninja bosses have their number. Oh, and you have a 16% chance to play one due to their strict Mental Endurance requirement.


”Well, the tail came free if you bought the arm, so…”

Ninja 'Borg

Really? Well, see, unlike normal cyborgs, which generally have absurd stealth penalties, these get special implants made by Ichto and H-Brand that make them more silent. Usually they're selected with those with physical impairments or weakness, and get VR training to make them into non-VR killers, then get made into cyborgs around age 18. A murderous teenager in a terminator body? Sounds like a perfect plan. In any case, they're most often used when heavy force is required in a mission.

They're full cyborgs, making them more powerful than cyber-samurai, and can cancel out the usual borg stealth penalties as long as they're basically not moving faster than a (normal) walking or jogging pace and don’t use heavy cyborg armor. They get a variety of gadgets and have to.... randomly roll to see if they really rad stuff like a bladed tail or an extra arm. They also get a special plasma "fire breath" weapon in the mouth that gives them a voice so deep they get a minor horror factor. "That voice... it's like Keith David... run!" While their skill package isn't fantastic, it's much better than the default cyborg package. And no, they can't learn ninjutsu, once again. About 38% chance to play the Cyrax or Sektor of your dreams.


”Techno-wizard? Oh, is that was I supposed to dress as for this picture? I thought we were doing ninja clowns. Sorry!"

Ninja Techno-Wizard O.C.C.

Discovered by H-Brand ninja trying to find a way to get revenge on mystic ninja (like you do), techno-wizardry is the exclusive province of ninja clans at the moment (and very rare, at that). Because of the high demand for their skills, making invisible magic ninja suits and flaming shuriken, they tend to be overworked and so some of the original ones are planning to leave their clan and escape their video game industryesque working conditions.

They're like regular techno-wizards, but get less spells and "Trying to learn spells elsewhere without the express consent of the clan is considered to be treason and punishable by death!" if that wasn't punishing enough. They get a mix of tech and sneaky skills, but not much in the way of optional picks. They also get cyber-armor, a few cybernetics, the ubiquitous tracer implant, and can get some basic techno-wizard enchantments (like pajamas of invisibility). Strict stat requirements mean only 5% of PCs will qualify!

And that's the last of the ninja. For the record, that means there are six different ninja classes in this book. Well, at least you could kit out an entire party as ninja without much overlap, even though we have precious little detail on the ninja clans of the Republic itself. I guess the book wants them to be a mystery.

Next: SAMASurai.

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015
I'm surprised there's no Glitter Ninja. Or Dog Ninja. Or Ninja Melter. Or Mind Ninja (which is different from the Ninja Melter).

megane posted:

:regd09: : "I-I was only trying to kill you to teach you a lesson!!"

:clint: : "Don't worry. I got the Cliff's Notes." (drops Beast off a cliff)

"You can't stop me! I... I have so many lessons to teach!!"

(And then the Beast turns into a villain for the Adam West Batman)

Kurieg posted:

They also got rid of iterative attacks and made it so cantrips don't scale, so it's more "How do you do damage" Rather than "How much theoretical damage can you do?" That said the game also tops out at level 10 so it doesn't really need iterative attacks since stuff hopefully won't scale that high.

"Tops out at level 10" seems to be the thing in the d20verse (13th Age, Shadow of the Demon Lord, Godbound...). Maybe an influence from E6?

DAD LOST MY IPOD
Feb 3, 2012

Fats Dominar is on the case


i really, really want someone to F and F slashers and the uber versions of them whose name I can't recall. i would if I owned the books.

also i am aware that i left TGMM by the wayside but i just moved across the ocean and am currently dealing with a death in the family so i'm low on spoons

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:

i really, really want someone to F and F slashers and the uber versions of them whose name I can't recall. i would if I owned the books.

also i am aware that i left TGMM by the wayside but i just moved across the ocean and am currently dealing with a death in the family so i'm low on spoons

Got you covered, holmes.

To Protect Flavor
Feb 24, 2016

DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:

i really, really want someone to F and F slashers and the uber versions of them whose name I can't recall. i would if I owned the books.


Didn't Mors do that one already?

edit: oops

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.


Grimey Drawer
Ninja crazies make perfect sense, since the purpose of the ninja is to flip out and kill people.

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015

Bieeardo posted:

Ninja crazies make perfect sense, since the purpose of the ninja is to flip out and kill people.

Only if you're with a couple dozen other ninja. Solo ninja are sneaky.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.
God drat it, reviewing WoD books is really pushing back the coverage of Immortal: the Invisible War 3rd edition.

SirPhoebos
Dec 10, 2007

WELL THAT JUST HAPPENED!

Alien Rope Burn posted:



Because it's totally normal in America, yeah? Also they're so sneaky they "will tend to startle and scare people around him", "which will make most civilians suspicious and afraid". Hokay. Unlike tech-ninja, they can't learn ninjutsu for no stated or apparent reason. I presume the answer is "game balance", but given that this game lets you play a giant phoenix-demigod that self-resurrects and can summon volcanoes, it's all pretty relative. They get a decent chunk of sneaky skills, and in a surprise, have no stat requirements - anybody can qualify! They do get a tracer implant, which seems a little problematic for ninja if somebody figures out the signal, but it's meant to leash those trying to run away, I suppose.

What book was that in?

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.
The thing about games like Beast is, you can play as a bad person who does bad things and lies about it to themselves or totally lacks self awarness! It's the core of the WoD. It's what I did as a Blood Dragon 'hero' for two campaigns in Warhams! (though admittedly 'I get off on people being impressed when I save their village and don't ask for any reward because the blood, killing, and admiration are all the pay I need' is quite a bit less problematic). The whole catch has always and will always be the stupid idea that after everything they do, the Beast is the good guy. I mean, hell, imagine you had a Hero who was totally only in it for the glory and the rush of killing dangerous monsters. But in the process of doing that, he stuck to fighting something that was a legitimate threat to everyone around him, rescued dozens of potential victims, etc. At that point, what the hell do his intentions matter if vanity is driving the guy to do something like kill Beasts? The narrative doesn't work from that direction because the monsters are so unambiguously harmful to everyone around them that the reasons for putting them down stop mattering, and what starts mattering is 'how much collateral damage do you accept', and again, now you're just playing Hunter.

Chernobyl Peace Prize
May 7, 2007

Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

Desiden posted:

Given how everything else about why Beasts aren't unequivocally the bad guys for everything boils down to "writer fiat", I suppose "make hunters soul search in a way they don't with more ambiguous monsters" is fully within the setting dictated parameters of Beast.
"Everybody keeps saying I should feel worse about this than I do, which is, not at all" would be kind of a funny approach to take with Hunters and Beasts. Though a better one is none at all, in fairness.

The Sin of Onan
Oct 11, 2012

And below,
watched by eyes of steel
we dreamt

Halloween Jack posted:

God drat it, reviewing WoD books is really pushing back the coverage of Immortal: the Invisible War 3rd edition.

Sorry :( If it helps, I'm somewhat less idle this weekend than I was over the week (work is being weird), so it might be a couple of days before the next Tooth and Nail part. There's probably two more parts left in it (or perhaps four; I'm not sure if I should do one big Compacts writeup or three smaller ones, one for each Compact. Any thoughts?).

Chernobyl Peace Prize
May 7, 2007

Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.

The Sin of Onan posted:

Sorry :( If it helps, I'm somewhat less idle this weekend than I was over the week (work is being weird), so it might be a couple of days before the next Tooth and Nail part. There's probably two more parts left in it (or perhaps four; I'm not sure if I should do one big Compacts writeup or three smaller ones, one for each Compact. Any thoughts?).
Small writeups = faster writeups for you = more frequent reading for us = Just Post

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Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!

Doresh posted:

I'm surprised there's no Glitter Ninja. Or Dog Ninja. Or Ninja Melter. Or Mind Ninja (which is different from the Ninja Melter).

We'll have new glitter boys later (for the third time, for those keeping track) but they aren't piloted my ninjas. Psionics don't get much of a showing outside of the Ninja Crazy, so no psylockes, for better or worse. Psionics in general rarely get a lot of love in Rifts compared to magic.

SirPhoebos posted:

What book was that in?

Rifts World Book 4: Africa. The Phoenixi are 10'+ bird men that get an average of 700-800 Potential Psychic Energy points and can cast river of lava (30' long by 5' wide by 5' deep multiplied by level) for 50 P.P.E. twice a round, since they get "all fire spells". And yes, you specifically can summon it right under an enemy, no saving throw, no dodge check, just now you're sinking in mega-damage lava. Another ridiculous thing I realize they can do is summon very minor fire elementals and thanks to their deep P.P.E. base, they can summon up an army of 50 fire elementals (costing 15 P.P.E. apiece) in just over 5 minutes of continuous casting. They aren't more than mooks, of course, but 4d6x50 is more than enough to melt down a glitter boy given the boom gun can only gun down one per attack and can't dodge. Or they can save a little power, summon up only a few dozen, then drop you in lava while fire serpents swarm your face. They're certainly on my top 10 most broken Rifts classes out there.

Edit: Oh yeah, and once every twelve hours unless they're reduced below -30 M.D.C. they can fully regenerate all damage. They have other powers too, like being able to close rifts or open dimensional portals. Little stuff like that.

After that the idea of a juicer with ninjitsu just feels quaint.

Alien Rope Burn fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Feb 10, 2017

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