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Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



Ratoslov posted:

Litheroy seems like the nicest Superior to deal with. Eli's a close second, but he's, y'know, insane even by Superior standards. Yves is niceish, but he's also cryptic, which I have mentioned I have a intense dislike of.

While I think the whole story of the time Andre banged Roy is cute, I do gotta wonder what circumstances it could possibly have occured in, given Litheroy's stated 'SMASH DEMON FACES' stance.

Litheroy reads to me like a guy who would press a giant red button labeled "DO NOT TOUCH: WILL DESTROY HEAVEN IF PRESSED" just to see what would happen. Have to imagine there's a full-time team of cherubim running damage control on him like there is for Gabriel.

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Rand Brittain
Mar 24, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

Litheroy is a great boss for a game but working for him would be absolute hell.

Ratoslov
Feb 15, 2012

Now prepare yourselves! You're the guests of honor at the Greatest Kung Fu Cannibal BBQ Ever!



Rand Brittain posted:

Litheroy is a great boss for a game but working for him would be absolute hell.

Pretty much every superior would be hellish to work for. Eli is an exception here, but that's because Eli is completely AWOL.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



Ratoslov posted:

Pretty much every superior would be hellish to work for. Eli is an exception here, but that's because Eli is completely AWOL.

Most of them seem pretty reasonable to me, especially if you go with the mindset that angels fundamentally are not human and don't think quite the same way we do. Even if not, most of them seem to be fairly reasonable bosses as long as you share their Word's idea of purpose. You're an angel, you've got a job to do.

Litheroy really strikes me as a guy who does far more harm than good even though he's ostensibly on heaven's side.

Zereth
Jul 8, 2003




Mors Rattus posted:

I am pretty sure that 'oh dear god I hate Lilim' is a common feeling among In Nomine fans.

Because seriously, guys, Lilim.

The game really, really wants you to buy into how special and amazing they are.
I feel like the only really interesting thing about them is that if they Redeem they... don't change at all. A reflection of how Malakim react to Dissonance exactly like demons do, and don't Fall.

I don't recall the books ever really going into this in any detail.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


Doresh posted:

So humans habe been around for almost a millenium, but gunpowder and probably other sorts of advanced chemicals are tools of the devil? This is yet another medieval fantasy setting eternally stuck in the same vague medieval period, isn't it?

Well, also bear in mind Araterre maintains a lot of its Renaissance-era technology (particularly in regards to sea travel) so it's not a complete wash. And just because they think they got rid of guns doesn't mean they actually did; there are probably still some floating around or secreted away, but using them carries risks.

GURPS Fantasy definitely has some issues with being a somewhat static world, but I suppose being yanked from one planet to another might retard the march of progress for awhile. It's certainly not as bad as many fantasy worlds where technological innovation stagnates for millennia or longer for no readily discernible reason.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Alien Rope Burn posted:

GURPS Fantasy definitely has some issues with being a somewhat static world, but I suppose being yanked from one planet to another might retard the march of progress for awhile. It's certainly not as bad as many fantasy worlds where technological innovation stagnates for millennia or longer for no readily discernible reason.

In D&D I recall seeing it was an intentional ploy of the Gods, but then the D&D Gods are a bunch of bloated parasites and hypocrites who deserve death at the hands of a glorious revolution. :ussr:

Madtrixr
Nov 27, 2010




Cythereal posted:

Litheroy reads to me like a guy who would press a giant red button labeled "DO NOT TOUCH: WILL DESTROY HEAVEN IF PRESSED" just to see what would happen. Have to imagine there's a full-time team of cherubim running damage control on him like there is for Gabriel.

Its not just that he wants to see what happens, he HAS to press it so he can tell others what happens if you press it, nevermind any possible consequences, or even lack of people who care. He's the guy who earnestly reviews the 55 gallon drum of lube on Amazon because The Truth Must Be Told.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



Night10194 posted:

In D&D I recall seeing it was an intentional ploy of the Gods, but then the D&D Gods are a bunch of bloated parasites and hypocrites who deserve death at the hands of a glorious revolution. :ussr:

To the contrary, in the Forgotten Realms gunpowder was a direct gift from the god of invention to his faithful and his clerics could wield an arquebus contrary to normal cleric weapon restrictions. It was a very recent thing, though, restricted to Gond's priesthood and the distant island nation of Lantan. Then 4E happened.

Rand Brittain
Mar 24, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

Cythereal posted:

Most of them seem pretty reasonable to me, especially if you go with the mindset that angels fundamentally are not human and don't think quite the same way we do.

Yeah, the game isn't always consistent about that, though.

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.




Grimey Drawer

Cythereal posted:

Or you could go Screwtape Letters with it and Lilim fill in as the bureaucracy and legal department of Hell. That could be Lilith's secret to staying alive in Hell: the Lilim are the glue of Hell's organization simply because they're about the only ones who can ensure the management and supply of Hell's legions actually gets done. They're not the glamorous succubi you normally hear about, but your average Lilim is the Hellish version of an office drone or truck driver.

I had a lot of fun with a succubus character who operated along those lines. She worked in Procurement, arranging for the acquisition of objects and concepts and delivery to agents working on potential Fausts. Sexual temptation? Not her department. Besides, anyone willing to give their soul away for a lay wasn't worth much on the market anyway.

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009




Cythereal posted:

To the contrary, in the Forgotten Realms gunpowder was a direct gift from the god of invention to his faithful and his clerics could wield an arquebus contrary to normal cleric weapon restrictions. It was a very recent thing, though, restricted to Gond's priesthood and the distant island nation of Lantan. Then 4E happened.

Gond was an exception to the rule in the Forgotten Realms- did in spread in 4th edition or did they destroy that along with the rest of the setting?

MadScientistWorking
Jun 23, 2010

"I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."


Kavak posted:

Gond was an exception to the rule in the Forgotten Realms- did in spread in 4th edition or did they destroy that along with the rest of the setting?
Gond was as dead as a doornail in 4E Forgotten Realms but weirdly enough the Black Powder stuff carried over with the Artificer of Gond which was more or less black powder explosive abilities.

Black August
Sep 28, 2003



Woah thread blew up.

Rand Brittain posted:

Yeah, the game isn't always consistent about that, though.

Yeah. It's on purpose, but it's not implemented well at all thanks to the schizophrenic writing.

The basic idea is that you follow a scale of humanity from top to bottom, Seraph to Grigori. Seraphim are just plain alien to deal with. Mercurians, who are one step above Grigori, are the easiest. Then you take Word into account and how that affects humanity, and how humanity affects the Word. Again, someone just post the Game Master's Guide after Superiors, because it explains so much of this nonsense.

In game, though, you're not meant to be dealing with your Superior. You'll usually be dealing with ranking Wordbound - unless you're specialists, well, why would the mailroom kids talk to the CEO? But yeah, Superiors are tricky and sticky to handle well in a setting.

Also yeah blah blah blah Bright Lilim are just Lilim, surely Malakim can Fall then, but that got buried under 190,000 pounds of people just playing Malakim like asshead D&D Paladins. Which is hilarious because the mechanics for Malakim barely make them useful for actually fighting demons. Ofanim are mechanically VASTLY better at slaughtering a shitload of demons. Just as hilariously as Lilim being awful working girls, Malakim are awful warriors way way better suited to helping keep contracts, settling disagreements, and doing rescue operations.

Rand Brittain
Mar 24, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

Black August posted:

In game, though, you're not meant to be dealing with your Superior. You'll usually be dealing with ranking Wordbound - unless you're specialists, well, why would the mailroom kids talk to the CEO? But yeah, Superiors are tricky and sticky to handle well in a setting.

That's why they have four books and five straight-to-digital products entirely about their personalities and opinions!

I laugh, bleakly, because I know exactly how it is.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



Black August posted:

Malakim are awful warriors way way better suited to helping keep contracts, settling disagreements, and doing rescue operations.

I'd almost think this is on purpose: being warriors is not what God created the Malakim for, they were supposed to be judges and adjudicators among men and angels but lost their way with the Fall, similar to Dominic.

That's something I think I'd like to note in my planned campaign when the PCs meet with or at least see Superiors: this is not what they were created to be, except maybe Yves, and certainly not what they or their Words were intended to do. Yves, I think, might even express a little long-suffering frustration about that: he knows what they were meant to be, what they still could be, but the only other person in all of creation that he can talk to who has the necessary concepts, much less the words to express them, is Kronos. Even when an angel sees the likes of Laurence, Novalis, or Jean, they're seeing something fundamentally broken and less than what it was intended to be.

Out of curiosity for my planning and thinking, can celestials with vessels drown or be restricted in the water? Thinking about giving all angels of the Sea a flat immunity to drowning and the crushing pressure of the ocean depths. Kind of necessary for an archangel of that Word and whose Tethers accordingly tend to be deep underwater.

Zereth
Jul 8, 2003




Malakim could presumably go work for a Demon Prince and get a new paint job like Lilim do with Archangels, but other than being able to go to heaven and other little details like that they're already mechanically demons, pretty much. Which seems to be the only real explanation for why they can't Fall to be had.

Cythereal posted:

I'd almost think this is on purpose: being warriors is not what God created the Malakim for, they were supposed to be judges and adjudicators among men and angels but lost their way with the Fall, similar to Dominic.
Didn't Malakim straight up not exist before the fall and a bunch of previously non-Malakim angels turned into them during the vents of the Fall?


EDIT: Say what WAS the deal with Malakim in the original french game?

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018



Malakim did not exist before the Fall. Uriel, David and the rest of the First Malakim looked at what Lucifer was doing and essentially went mad with rage, hulking out and warping into the Malakim and going ham on the Rebels until the battle ended, at which point they swear their Oaths to restrain their fury to a cold boil instead of constant murder.

unseenlibrarian
Jun 4, 2012

There's only one thing in the mountains that leaves a track like this. The creature of legend that roams the Timberline. My people named him Sasquatch. You call him... Bigfoot.

Cythereal posted:

To the contrary, in the Forgotten Realms gunpowder was a direct gift from the god of invention to his faithful and his clerics could wield an arquebus contrary to normal cleric weapon restrictions. It was a very recent thing, though, restricted to Gond's priesthood and the distant island nation of Lantan. Then 4E happened.

Forgotten Realm gods deserve the glorious maltheist revolution more than anyone else, thanks to the Wall of the Faithless. Which I think 4E also got rid of in favor of the god of the dead judging where non-believers should go based on what they were like in life.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013





The wall is also by itself why I'd argue no god save Kelemvor can actually qualify as good aligned in Faerun. He was the only guy who looked at the status quo and went "holy gently caress that's evil" and actually tried to do something about it.

Black August
Sep 28, 2003



Rand Brittain posted:

That's why they have four books and five straight-to-digital products entirely about their personalities and opinions!

I laugh, bleakly, because I know exactly how it is.

Like I said. Someone's baby. Cross people starving for their own little White Wolfish fanfiction playground with fringe-element nerds and an absolutely bizarre geoscape of fandom to writer relations and you end up with "Here's a game about angels and demons and the humans they fight ovDID I MENTION THAT ANDRE HAS LIKE 17 SEXUAL CONQUESTS AMONG THE ARCHANGELS??!?

Just pretend it was all written by some pissed off team of Media demons.

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009




Terrible Opinions posted:

The wall is also by itself why I'd argue no god save Kelemvor can actually qualify as good aligned in Faerun. He was the only guy who looked at the status quo and went "holy gently caress that's evil" and actually tried to do something about it.

Were any of the others in a real position portfolio-wise to do anything about it?

It's still a real pity that Obsidian and WOTC miscommunicated and you don't get to destroy that thing yourself in Mask of the Betrayer.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



Terrible Opinions posted:

The wall is also by itself why I'd argue no god save Kelemvor can actually qualify as good aligned in Faerun. He was the only guy who looked at the status quo and went "holy gently caress that's evil" and actually tried to do something about it.

Then got bitch slapped by Ao for it.

Also, the severity of the Wall varied dramatically from depiction to depiction. Most people are probably familiar with it from Mask of the Betrayer, but other Forgotten Realms material had said that only those who actively reject the gods end up in the Wall - the benevolent gods especially are merciful and take in the souls that have been judged by Kelemvor but didn't worship a god in life out of preference or simple ignorance. The Wall is the punishment for those who explicitly reject the gods, even those who simply never cared for religion in life get taken in by a god who matches the person's otherwise ethos in life.

Gann would have been Walled due to his explicit, knowing rejection of the gods according to this version, but Safiya would have been picked up by Oghma or Mystra.

Black August
Sep 28, 2003



Mors Rattus posted:

Malakim did not exist before the Fall. Uriel, David and the rest of the First Malakim looked at what Lucifer was doing and essentially went mad with rage, hulking out and warping into the Malakim and going ham on the Rebels until the battle ended, at which point they swear their Oaths to restrain their fury to a cold boil instead of constant murder.

Yup. In more simple terms, Uriel, the Seraph Archangel of Purity, saw Lucifer's bullshit and went Super Saiyan.

As for the adjudication thing, no, Malakim were meant to be the Big Bad Demon Slayers the whole time. But the mechanics do nothing to really support that. Malakim can't Fall, supposedly, and they suffer no Trauma, but nobody ever cares about or gives a poo poo for Trauma rules, and it's functionally useless as a demon hunter power in the base setting. A lot of Choir attunements ended up giving them an edge, and Laurence is balls-to-the-wall murder mode, but base Malakim just... should stand aside and let Ofanim trash the living dogshit out of things with their insane resonance and gigantic corporeal combat bonuses.

Of note, the original French version had no Choirs or Bands. Angels and Demons were Angels and Demons.

Wrestlepig
Feb 25, 2011

my mum says im cool



Toilet Rascal

Don't you eat it in the evil ending?

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.



The wall of the faithless was bar none the stupidest thing they did with the setting, in a setting full of stupid poo poo. The Mask of the Betrayer was a fantastic Nwn2 module, but it was pretty heinous, takes away the actually neat concept of having a good-aligned death god in the setting after a string of neutral and evil ones, and reduced the rest of the gods to various levels of parasite.

I get Ao is meant be representative of the GM, but given how many gently caress ups in FR is either because he's remote, or he chose to act in what seems to be the most dickish way possible, makes you wonder why the rest of the gods don't go "You gotta go."

Robindaybird fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Feb 7, 2016

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.




Grimey Drawer

The same gods who, kicked out of heaven for stealing AO's tablets of the not-ten-commandments, hosed up the world so vigorously that an entire character class was eradicated and AO put his foot down, declaring that henceforth, divine power was predicated on strength of worship. Prior to that, the fuckers left countless shades sitting around in the Grey Wastes waiting fruitlessly for their gods to come and shovel them off to their rewards.

wiegieman
Apr 22, 2010

Royalty is a continuous cutting motion




chaos rhames posted:

Don't you eat it in the evil ending?

You become the embodiment of eternal hunger and consume several gods until you get bored and leave for greener pastures. It's pretty metal.

Zereth
Jul 8, 2003




Robindaybird posted:

I get Ao is meant be representative of the GM, but given how many gently caress ups in FR is either because he's remote, or he chose to act in what seems to be the most dickish way possible, makes you wonder why the rest of the gods don't go "You gotta go."
Isn't Ao to the gods as the gods are to ordinary mortals?

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



The Forgotten Realms setting is a mess, suffice it to say, and Mask of the Betrayer picked one particular interpretation of it.

It's me, I'm the one who always sides with Kelemvor and got a warm fuzzy feeling when my paladin of Kelemvor got special dialogue with the big dude about how the Knight-Captain was his greatest mortal champion and that paradise awaits her at the death god's side - later, it's not yet time for her to leave the mortal world.

Zereth posted:

Isn't Ao to the gods as the gods are to ordinary mortals?

Yes. Ao only ever showed up in the Realms when gods hosed up big time, and he would commence beatings until order was restored.

Black August
Sep 28, 2003



Y'know there's a reason that mass furious violent deicide is a thing in pretty much every setting I run.

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009




Bieeardo posted:

The same gods who, kicked out of heaven for stealing AO's tablets of the not-ten-commandments, hosed up the world so vigorously that an entire character class was eradicated and AO put his foot down, declaring that henceforth, divine power was predicated on strength of worship. Prior to that, the fuckers left countless shades sitting around in the Grey Wastes waiting fruitlessly for their gods to come and shovel them off to their rewards.

Except for Helm, the one god Ao judged to be worthy of staying a god and smacking down all the assholes who tried to weasel their way back instead of having to prove it.

So of course they killed him off before the Spellplague in a situation everyone involved knew was stupid but went through with anyway. I'm going to Ctrl-Y Cyric when you meet him in Throne of Bhaal.

wiegieman posted:

You become the embodiment of eternal hunger and consume several gods until you get bored and leave for greener pastures. It's pretty metal.

You turn into the fantasy version of Darth Nihlus, it loving rules.

EDIT: ^^^ I have solemnly sworn to never make a D&D setting with more gods than I can count on my fingers.

Kavak fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Feb 7, 2016

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



Black August posted:

Y'know there's a reason that mass furious violent deicide is a thing in pretty much every setting I run.

Each to their own. I hold the complete opposite view, that submission to the cosmic order is a good thing.

I kinda hold Lilith as one of the biggest assholes of In Nomine and one of the two main people keeping the War going.

Black August
Sep 28, 2003



Cythereal posted:

Each to their own. I hold the complete opposite view, that submission to the cosmic order is a good thing.

I kinda hold Lilith as one of the biggest assholes of In Nomine and one of the two main people keeping the War going.

I was talking more about the Wall of the Faithless thing. As for In Nomine, I run it way more forgiving. God wants people to have free will, which includes angels even if they keep insisting they're some kind of mindless extension of divine will, backs off to let the song play out its own way, keeps a hand down and out for any demon willing to reach up. loving with humans always ends badly for everyone because the Symphony is violent and hateful of little winged fucks trying to poo poo up the Human Section of the whole song.

I just treat Lilith as someone who was victim of circumstance and decided to get REALLY loving mad, and now regrets the poo poo out of it all these years later, but what the hell can she do? Die horribly, that's about it. Plus, Balseraph is a hell of a drug.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Terrible Opinions posted:

The wall is also by itself why I'd argue no god save Kelemvor can actually qualify as good aligned in Faerun. He was the only guy who looked at the status quo and went "holy gently caress that's evil" and actually tried to do something about it.

I'm really looking forward to my 18th Century Invaded By D&D setting's heroes reaching Epic tier, discovering the Wall, and going 'You know what gently caress THIS.' and doing what Obsidian should've.

An Inquisitor, a musketeer, a kabbalist, and a chemist tearing down the order of cosmic psychopathy is going to be FUN TIMES.

Night10194 fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Feb 7, 2016

PantsOptional
Dec 27, 2012

All I wanna do is make you bounce

Black August posted:

Yup. In more simple terms, Uriel, the Seraph Archangel of Purity, saw Lucifer's bullshit and went Super Saiyan.

As for the adjudication thing, no, Malakim were meant to be the Big Bad Demon Slayers the whole time. But the mechanics do nothing to really support that. Malakim can't Fall, supposedly, and they suffer no Trauma, but nobody ever cares about or gives a poo poo for Trauma rules, and it's functionally useless as a demon hunter power in the base setting. A lot of Choir attunements ended up giving them an edge, and Laurence is balls-to-the-wall murder mode, but base Malakim just... should stand aside and let Ofanim trash the living dogshit out of things with their insane resonance and gigantic corporeal combat bonuses.

Of note, the original French version had no Choirs or Bands. Angels and Demons were Angels and Demons.

I'm curious as to what about the Ofanite resonance makes them so much better in combat. Aside from being able to dodge just about anything, they should be pretty good at thrown weapons but surely there are better weapons to use. I'm not doubting that they probably are too good at fighting - there's got to be a reason why the APG tries to redefine the relevant skills for the resonance, aside from the fact that by default Ofanim couldn't use their super motion powers to drive better.

Rand Brittain
Mar 24, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

Every time I read In Nomine I keep wanting to construct the story of how human Saints learn to pool their songs together to form an effective Superior and just start ignoring all the crazy Word-bound and form their own organization in Heaven. Maybe invite Lilith to join just to annoy everybody else.

I mean, what are the Archangels going to do? They don't exactly have the authority to toss them out of Heaven, or even really to order humans around who aren't their own Servitors.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


The way it works is basically AO is a true neutral rear end in a top hat who understands that Mortals need to exist, but can't fathom a reason to actually care about them. So he can't fathom why the lesser gods would care either, so he created a system where they have to care. The gods are powered by belief, and without belief they wither and die. And to ensure that the mortals would believe, he created the wall of he faithless. Where those who refused to believe would be punished for all eternity. The time of Troubles was AO enforcing the status quo.

Basically in any other setting AO would be Neutral Evil at best, and the entire checks and balances system of divinity that the Forgotten Realms has is one of the reasons I loathe the setting.

Their hidebound refusal to actually advance the setting in any meaningful way is the other. 4e tried with all it's heart but 5e bent over backwards to return to the status quo, even bringing Mystra back from the dead in the dumbest loving way possible after killing her off so hard that Magic broke.


Also I'm working on Book of the Wyrm still. should hopefully have an update in some form before I go to bed... just.. so much In Nomine to read..

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Why the hell would anyone bring back Mystara she is the worst.

Free Waukeen.

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Black August
Sep 28, 2003



PantsOptional posted:

I'm curious as to what about the Ofanite resonance makes them so much better in combat. Aside from being able to dodge just about anything, they should be pretty good at thrown weapons but surely there are better weapons to use. I'm not doubting that they probably are too good at fighting - there's got to be a reason why the APG tries to redefine the relevant skills for the resonance, aside from the fact that by default Ofanim couldn't use their super motion powers to drive better.

In Nomine combat is barebones. Ofanim have a gross advantage because of their speed and being able to boost so many physical skills, and Go Fast. Now, this doesn't give them the absolute advantage, since you really need proper Word attunements to roid out, but on base paper, Ofanim are superior demon slayers to Malakim.

Malakim don't get a bonus to damage or hit demons, no damage reduction against them, no way to banish them naturally, no special defense against their resonances, no way to shut down resonances, and they can't actually detect demons at all save on a CD 6 against a Balseraph which is situational in the extreme. But the text treats them as these endless living nightmares that all demons are TERRIFIED of meeting, even though they can't track you like a Cherub, chase you like an Ofanite, read you like an Elohite, or just drown you to death in a building-sized swarm of giant angry wasps like Kyriotates. They can just... tell if you didn't pay your bills last month, and if you shoot them in the head they wake up in Heaven in seconds instead of days/months/years/millenia.

Ofanim are beasts, Kyriotates shatter the game over their knee, and Mercurians have nothing to do with this but I hate them anyways because their resonance is the sloppiest most headachey poo poo you have ever seen as a GM.

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