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Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


Night10194 posted:

Why the hell would anyone bring back Mystara she is the worst.

Free Waukeen.

It's Mystra, Mystara is something completely different.

And because she's Ed Greenwood's personal wank fantasy, and that makes her important to all the nerds who demand that the Forgotten Realms stay eternal and pure.

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Ratoslov
Feb 15, 2012

Now prepare yourselves! You're the guests of honor at the Greatest Kung Fu Cannibal BBQ Ever!



Black August posted:

...or just drown you to death in a building-sized swarm of giant angry wasps like Kyriotates.

This is why I can't hate Jordi entirely. Sure, he's a waste of page count everywhere else, but nothing says awesome like killing demons with BEEEEEEESSSSSS!

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Kurieg posted:

It's Mystra, Mystara is something completely different.

And because she's Ed Greenwood's personal wank fantasy, and that makes her important to all the nerds who demand that the Forgotten Realms stay eternal and pure.

Right, Mystara is the cool place the awesome D&D arcade games happened, right?

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009




^^^ Right. It's the original "default" setting besides Greyhawk.

Kurieg posted:

Their hidebound refusal to actually advance the setting in any meaningful way is the other. 4e tried with all it's heart but 5e bent over backwards to return to the status quo, even bringing Mystra back from the dead in the dumbest loving way possible after killing her off so hard that Magic broke.

They reversed the status quo so hard Bhaal came back to life. How the gently caress did that even work?

Kurieg posted:

It's Mystra, Mystara is something completely different.

And because she's Ed Greenwood's personal wank fantasy, and that makes her important to all the nerds who demand that the Forgotten Realms stay eternal and pure.

Who he sleeps with his self-insert Elminster, who they ALSO resurrected.

Once Ed Greenwood dies, the first thing they should do is permanently kill that rear end in a top hat off or (My personal canon) have someone finally nail him to the wall for one of his countless sex crimes and lock him in Spellhold forever.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Goddamn, the D&D arcade games were cool. If D&D was more like those, it'd be way better. Princes in airships showing up to shoot Satan in the face with cannons while fighters do crazy devil may cry poo poo and wizards bonk people with sticks? Sign me up.

Black August
Sep 28, 2003



Ratoslov posted:

This is why I can't hate Jordi entirely. Sure, he's a waste of page count everywhere else, but nothing says awesome like killing demons with BEEEEEEESSSSSS!

Jordi is fun as HELL when you play him inverted. Which is to say, he doesn't like mankind, but tries to work hard with them to manage things and turn things around. Humans are animals! And drat it all, God is the leader of his hive, and he isn't a goddamn rebel. This is because he's determined that the reason for so much slaughter and spoilage of nature is THESE GODDAMN ANGELS AND DEMONS WILL NOT STOP loving WITH HUMAN HEADS, ALL THE drat TIME, GET OFF MY LAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWN

*millions of angry bee noises as angels and demons die in droves*

The idea is don't go wandering the wilds alone. You gonna die, demon. Angel? You dyin' too. Jordi don't give a poo poo, get the gently caress out. OUT. Go cry about it in the Council Meetings you meddlesome poo poo.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


Night10194 posted:

Right, Mystara is the cool place the awesome D&D arcade games happened, right?

Nah, that's Sigil. :colbert:

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009




Alien Rope Burn posted:

Nah, that's Sigil. :colbert:

Sigil was where the best RPG happened, not arcade game.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


Kavak posted:

They reversed the status quo so hard Bhaal came back to life. How the gently caress did that even work?

The last two Bhaalspawn finally killed eachother. What's dumb is that Myrkul came back with no explanation whatsoever.

At least Mystra was a Bear.


That loving Bear.

Black August
Sep 28, 2003



I was so mystified in later years when I finally decided to look at D&D and found it was nothing like the arcade games in terms of bombast and lunacy. Devil May Cry is exactly the right word and what I thought would go down.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Alien Rope Burn posted:

Nah, that's Sigil. :colbert:

My only real knowledge of Sigil is the stuff from Torment, and then a bunch of poo poo I filled in.

My players love visiting it as a bunch of European mercenaries.

PantsOptional
Dec 27, 2012

All I wanna do is make you bounce

Black August posted:

In Nomine combat is barebones. Ofanim have a gross advantage because of their speed and being able to boost so many physical skills, and Go Fast. Now, this doesn't give them the absolute advantage, since you really need proper Word attunements to roid out, but on base paper, Ofanim are superior demon slayers to Malakim.

Oh, man, I dug out my books to poke through them to see just how gross I could make an Ofanite, and two things struck me:

1) You can add your Acrobatics skill to Dodge against melee attacks to make it disgustingly hard to hit you even before their resonance comes in to play. Thinking back on it, I"m pretty sure I realized this when I made my last character and oh my god was it really fifteen years ago.

2) This loving book, man - it took me a good three or four minutes going back and forth over the combat section to find the one place that it mentions how initiative is determined, and it's in a "sidebar" on the last page of the combat section. Also there's apparently a random sidebar on the page before it that talks about Fate and Destiny for no loving reason.

Rand Brittain
Mar 24, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

Elminster is actually funny if you just play him as the king of all curmudgeons instead of the wizard who has all the levels of everything.

(If you read the old book for the Cult of the Dragon, you discover that there's at least one major evil group in the setting that exists largely because Elminster was a curmudgeon to their necro-master when they were supposed to be working together.)

Well, okay, he was also Nice Guying Mystra and two of her Chosen at the same time, being Svengali'd by a priest of Bane, and struggling to deal with how as Chosen of Mystra he possessed untold power and that if his control faltered for an instant innocent people would die. But Elminster's lack of bedside manner was a key player in the rise of Undead Dragon Avon.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
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2014-2018



Kyriotates of Animals have an amazingly terrifying attunement.

Every other Animals attunement is basically just 'uuuuh you get to be a dog.'

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009




Kurieg posted:

The last two Bhaalspawn finally killed eachother. What's dumb is that Myrkul came back with no explanation whatsoever.

At least Mystra was a Bear.

That loving Bear.

Is that the canon explanation? Because imposing a canon ending on Baldur's Gate is the thing I hate most about the Forgotten Realms setting.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Seriously, you want a good time, you drop some Germans and Czechs with magic powers they don't understand into Sigil and watch them bumble about trying to find a way home.

Black August
Sep 28, 2003



Mors Rattus posted:

Kyriotates of Animals have an amazingly terrifying attunement.

Every other Animals attunement is basically just 'uuuuh you get to be a dog.'

Borgstrom's favorite trick was to play a goofy Kyriotate of Animals whose favored manifestation was a swarm of giant funnel web spiders.

Talking with Borgstrom is also a hell of a drug.

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.



There's gods and some concepts I like from Forgotten Realms, and I admit I have a soft spot for the setting due to CRPGs - from the Gold Box games to Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights, but there's a lot of groanworthy poo poo.

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009




Robindaybird posted:

There's gods and some concepts I like from Forgotten Realms, and I admit I have a soft spot for the setting due to CRPGs - from the Gold Box games to Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights, but there's a lot of groanworthy poo poo.

Same. What are the groaner spots besides Greenwood's pet NPC's again?

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


Kavak posted:

Is that the canon explanation? Because imposing a canon ending on Baldur's Gate is the thing I hate most about the Forgotten Realms setting.

Yup!

quote:

The last known Bhaalspawn, Abdel Adrian, resisted the murderous impulses caused by his lineage and became a famed and beloved figure in the city of Baldur's Gate. Near the beginning of the era known as "The Sundering" another Bhaalspawn, Viekang, who was thought dead, attacked Adrian as he spoke to a crowd in the portion of town known as The Wide. The ultimate winner of the duel is unknown, although it matters not as the victor transformed into a massive, blood soaked creature and began a rampage which was only stopped when a group of adventurers new to Baldur's Gate defeated and killed the monstrosity.

Robindaybird posted:

There's gods and some concepts I like from Forgotten Realms, and I admit I have a soft spot for the setting due to CRPGs - from the Gold Box games to Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights, but there's a lot of groanworthy poo poo.

NWN and NWN2 are really my only exposure to the Forgotten Realms and I love Mask of the Betrayer for calling out the writers on their poo poo.

Rand Brittain
Mar 24, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

Kavak posted:

Same. What are the groaner spots besides Greenwood's pet NPC's again?

Honestly, my main impression from reading old Realms stuff is that they pretty much just paid Greenwood to publish his campaign notes, because there's a whole lot of pointless stuff in the old books. Like, Cult of the Dragon has full stats for Sammaster at four different points of his life.

My favorite bizarre thing is the Magister. Let me tell you a story!

Once, Mystra decided that knowledge of magic was in danger. Somebody might murder all the wizards, or blow up the world, and everybody's knowledge of the Art would be lost. How terrible!

So, she decided to name a very special wizard as the Magister. The Magister would be in charge of teaching the Art and safeguarding the knowledge of magic for everyone. She'd get all kinds of special powers, and when she died, Mystra would choose a new Magister. Or, if you killed the Magister, you'd become the new Magister!

Tell me, children, can you pick out the sentence where this turned into a terrible, awful idea?

Anyway, the book is filled to the brim with the history of Magisters who lived miserable, hunted lives*, hiding from the wizards determined to kill them and take their office. At no point does it ever show any awareness of how completely Mystra hosed up this whole business or how messed-up it all is.

*including one spectacular tavern brawl where twelve new Magisters were appointed in one night, causing Mystra to change the rules--so that the Magister got plot armor for six hours.

Black August
Sep 28, 2003



So is there a D&D setting where Wizards and Clerics and Gods are all just slaughtered the second an inkling of their existence arises, so the rest of the world can go about their fantasy nonsense in relative peace? Because reading all that is hilarious and tells me that every problem in those worlds comes from bad gods and worse wizards.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Clerics are, uh, not tolerated in Sigil.

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009





That adventure is even dumber than I thought it was.

Also Viekang surviving Throne of Bhaal means that the story is less like Highlander and I find that unacceptable.

quote:

NWN and NWN2 are really my only exposure to the Forgotten Realms and I love Mask of the Betrayer for calling out the writers on their poo poo.

That's what Obsidian does with any property licensed to them and I adore them for it.

I can recommend the Baldur's Gate series, although it needs mods even more than NWN does.

Night10194 posted:

Clerics are, uh, not tolerated in Sigil.

More like gods themselves- clerics are okay, except for Aoskar and the Lady of Pain.

Ao should take lessons from her- she fixes a problem in the balance of power in Sigil, it stays fixed.

Rand Brittain
Mar 24, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

Ao is basically the divine equivalent of the teacher who ignores bullying until a fight starts and somebody is bleeding, and then suspends everybody involved.

The Lady of Pain believes in actively encouraging good behavior. I mean, presumably she does.

The Lone Badger
Sep 24, 2007



Black August posted:

Because reading all that is hilarious and tells me that every problem in those worlds comes from bad gods and worse wizards.

Wizards are assholes. This is a universal truth across pretty much every setting that includes them.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


Black August posted:

So is there a D&D setting where Wizards and Clerics and Gods are all just slaughtered the second an inkling of their existence arises, so the rest of the world can go about their fantasy nonsense in relative peace? Because reading all that is hilarious and tells me that every problem in those worlds comes from bad gods and worse wizards.

Not really because a D&D Game without Clerics and Wizards isn't D&D.

Though you might like Eberron since the main religions are a militant fire-and-brimstone "the world will only know true peace once everyone worships like us" religion that doesn't actually have a god. And a more cosmopolitan pantheon that wields divine power but hasn't actually heard from their gods in ever. In fact, the gods aren't really too picky on that whole alignment thing.

Also wizards are respected for the power they wield but the guys who put magical power to mass produced and practical use are the ones who are celebrated. Yeah that's fantastic you can teleport yourself across the globe I MADE A LIGHTNING POWERED TRAIN AND AN AIRSHIP THAT RUNS ON ELEMENTAL FIRE!

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.




Grimey Drawer

Kavak posted:

Same. What are the groaner spots besides Greenwood's pet NPC's again?

That's most of it, because they're pretty much everywhere you look.

Rand Brittain posted:

Honestly, my main impression from reading old Realms stuff is that they pretty much just paid Greenwood to publish his campaign notes, because there's a whole lot of pointless stuff in the old books. Like, Cult of the Dragon has full stats for Sammaster at four different points of his life.

I think this is actually depressingly accurate. Even the original FR boxed set had pages of what were obviously campaign notes that involved characters that were never heard from again. One of the 3E books was loaded with weird sidebars like hitherto-unknown fairy trods, not to be confused with the networks of permanent gates littering the world, and even wasted space providing stats for 'boom shrooms', which originally saw light in a Dragon magazine from the mid Eighties.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


Don't forget the 3.5 book Faiths and Pantheons which can best be described as "Holy poo poo we've got too many deities guys I can't keep them straight." Including the complete Elvish, Drow, Dwarven, Halfling, Orc, Gnome, and Egyptian pantheons.

No I didn't misspeak. Somehow people from Earth-Egypt got transplanted into the Realms.
Yes it's incredibly racist.

Black August
Sep 28, 2003



goddamn, and here I thought In Nomine had too freaking many celestial powers mucking about

The Lone Badger
Sep 24, 2007



So a starting kyriotate of animals can handle up to 16 swarms of wasps. How much wasp is that in kg?

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


Black August posted:

goddamn, and here I thought In Nomine had too freaking many celestial powers mucking about

That's not even including the 50~ some 'human' gods that the other races still nonetheless worship.

4e killed off(or reduced in stature to the point that they're divine but no longer a real power) a very large number of them for simple bookkeeping reasons.

Black August
Sep 28, 2003



The Lone Badger posted:

So a starting kyriotate of animals can handle up to 16 swarms of wasps. How much wasp is that in kg?

In Nomine doesn't detail down to that level, suffice to say it's enough to gently caress up any situation the GM can conceive of.

I swear to God a remake of this game would have to drive Kyriotates extinct to make them reasonable. Demons are so much easier to run, hilariously. Their resonances make nice simple sense! Actually, I should post Furfur's original attunements here sometime. That was about the time Derek was checking out of sanity and writing stuff for the line.

Zereth
Jul 8, 2003




Alien Rope Burn posted:

Nah, that's Sigil. :colbert:
They made a D&D arcade game set in Sigil? :monocle: Link please.

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.




Grimey Drawer

Kurieg posted:

Don't forget the 3.5 book Faiths and Pantheons which can best be described as "Holy poo poo we've got too many deities guys I can't keep them straight." Including the complete Elvish, Drow, Dwarven, Halfling, Orc, Gnome, and Egyptian pantheons.

No I didn't misspeak. Somehow people from Earth-Egypt got transplanted into the Realms.
Yes it's incredibly racist.

Oh god, that. I remember there being two of those sorts of books for 2E, loaded with poorly balanced Specialty Priests and brand-loving-new gods to confuse your game with. Not that the Realms didn't have more than enough to begin with, and a fair number of those were borrowed from mythological or literary sources.

Speaking of racism, I need to dig up my copy of Day of Al'Akbar, just to confirm my vague memory of a mad bomber running around not-Agrabah, blowing up bazaars with delayed-blast fireballs.

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.



Bieeardo posted:

That's most of it, because they're pretty much everywhere you look.

Pretty much. I thought the Harpers were pretty silly as an organization, the way Lloth demands how drows need to act should've made the entire civilization collapse ages ago especially given everything else in the Underdark that would take advantage of that level of "gently caress you I got mine" and "Betray first!" that runs through the entire society.

I want to take some of the more fun gods (and admit a couple I like even if they're not exactly popular like Lathander), some concepts, and put them in a place that's less like someone's personal sandbox.

Robindaybird fucked around with this message at 06:39 on Feb 7, 2016

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009




Kurieg posted:

No I didn't misspeak. Somehow people from Earth-Egypt got transplanted into the Realms.
Yes it's incredibly racist.

I thought they just stole real gods like with Tyr, is it really done that racist? Do they actually talk about the Egyptian worshippers like their a different species, like the rest? Then again:

Bieeardo posted:

Speaking of racism, I need to dig up my copy of Day of Al'Akbar, just to confirm my vague memory of a mad bomber running around not-Agrabah, blowing up bazaars with delayed-blast fireballs.

:happyelf:

Robindaybird posted:

Pretty much. I thought the Harpers were pretty silly as an organization, the way Lloth demands how drows need to act should've made the entire civilization collapse ages ago especially given everything else in the Underdark that would take advantage of that level of "gently caress you I got mine" and "Betray first!" that runs through the entire society.

I want to take some of the more fun gods (and admit a couple I like even if they're not exactly popular like Lathander), some concepts, and put them in a place that's less like someone's personal sandbox.

Drow are the worst, especially because they spawned Drizzt. Also, what the gently caress are the Harpers supposed to do anyway?

wiegieman
Apr 22, 2010

Royalty is a continuous cutting motion




Night10194 posted:

Why the hell would anyone bring back Mystara she is the worst.

Free Waukeen.

They did, there was a party and everything.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018



Bieeardo posted:

Oh god, that. I remember there being two of those sorts of books for 2E, loaded with poorly balanced Specialty Priests and brand-loving-new gods to confuse your game with. Not that the Realms didn't have more than enough to begin with, and a fair number of those were borrowed from mythological or literary sources.

Speaking of racism, I need to dig up my copy of Day of Al'Akbar, just to confirm my vague memory of a mad bomber running around not-Agrabah, blowing up bazaars with delayed-blast fireballs.

The second was about DEMIGODS. Totally different.

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Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


Kavak posted:

I thought they just stole real gods like with Tyr, is it really done that racist? Do they actually talk about the Egyptian worshippers like their a different species, like the rest? Then again:

Did we mention that Ed Greenwood is scum yet?

quote:

Mulhorand is one of the Old Empires in eastern Faerūn. The Mulhorandi were brought to Toril from Earth by the Imaskar Empire looking for some manpower.

quote:

The populace of Mulhorand is primarily composed of humans of three primary ethnic factions: the Mulan, the Turami, and slaves from Thay known as Tethens. Other races proved hesitant to follow the Mulhorandi pantheon upon the nation's founding, and were exiled at that time; the non human population remains low as a result. Mulhorand utilizes a caste system with three social classes

quote:

The people of Mulhorand are arrogant individuals that consider themselves better than any rival nation. Law is paramount to the nation's citizens, and change is avoided whenever possible. The government is run by the clergies devoted to the deities of the Mulhorandi pantheon, with the church of Horus-Re being foremost in power. However, despite the peaceful existence these priests seek to create, the different priesthoods are plagued by infighting, bickering, and struggles. These conflicts occur both within their individual orders and against those of other faiths.

quote:

Turami had flat faces with mahogany skin tones. Their hair was curly, and they tended towards muscular and tall builds

quote:

Mulan are typically tall and thin with a sallow skin tone and brown or hazel eyes.
They stole Egyptians and stereotypical black people for slave labor and then said slaves created a new-egypt on Toril.

The writers of 4e said "oh gently caress no" and dropped a Continent on top of the whole thing, ending Mulhorondi rather definitively.

I'll give you three guesses what happened during the lead-in to Fifth Edition and none of them count.

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