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Black August
Sep 28, 2003



Cythereal posted:

I see Litheroy as being close to Falling because of how destructive to society his Word has made him: he has no concept of privacy, refuses to believe that anything is better left buried, and no social filter on what is and is not appropriate. He reads to me as profoundly autistic, and one act of misplaced faith away from being Outcast. Even if he comes back, I think it would be Alfred Nobel style: seeing the papers erroneously report his death by celebrating that the Merchant of Death is dead, which lead him to create the Nobel Prizes and seek a better way of being to the world.

You gotta understand, acting inhuman doesn't mean you're going to Fall. Litheroy, as a matter of fact, is being very healthy for an angel. He is incredibly devoted to Truth, embraces his nature and Word, and managed to confuse the poo poo out of a Demon Prince such that Dominic gave it a wave -- that's a TREMENDOUS amount of trust. Dissonance is going against your nature, and Litheroy is not acting against it in the least. Being Outcast happens for defying Heaven and doing dissonant poo poo. Litheroy is a sterling example of acting with your nature, even if that nature, to you, seems profoundly uncomfortable and insane. And it is, to many other people in Heaven, but that's the point. Heaven is full of elemental forces grating against one another, but they're all in it together to defeat Hell and let mankind move on their own.

That's not to say he isn't going to cause problems with his behavior, and maybe make some dire mistakes, but he's not at all acting dissonant or worthy of Outcasting or Falling. Litheroy is a Seraph's Seraph, but he's also pretty friendly and interested in mankind.

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Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

IF YOU SEE ME SHITTING UP A THREAD ABOUT CRITICALLY ACCLAIMED MMORPG FINAL FANTASY XIV PLEASE REMIND ME THAT I QUIT THE GAME BECAUSE IT COULD NOT HANDLE MY LOFTY CRITICISMS OF VIOLENCE IN MEDIA

AND ALSO TO SHUT THE HELL UP


Black August posted:

You gotta understand, acting inhuman doesn't mean you're going to Fall. Litheroy, as a matter of fact, is being very healthy for an angel. He is incredibly devoted to Truth, embraces his nature and Word, and managed to confuse the poo poo out of a Demon Prince such that Dominic gave it a wave -- that's a TREMENDOUS amount of trust. Dissonance is going against your nature, and Litheroy is not acting against it in the least. Being Outcast happens for defying Heaven and doing dissonant poo poo. Litheroy is a sterling example of acting with your nature, even if that nature, to you, seems profoundly uncomfortable and insane. And it is, to many other people in Heaven, but that's the point. Heaven is full of elemental forces grating against one another, but they're all in it together to defeat Hell and let mankind move on their own.

That's not to say he isn't going to cause problems with his behavior, and maybe make some dire mistakes, but he's not at all acting dissonant or worthy of Outcasting or Falling. Litheroy is a Seraph's Seraph, but he's also pretty friendly and interested in mankind.

My response would be that Litheroy is being woefully limited by being so dedicated to his Word, and I think my spin on things would say that he is still merely an angel - and will never be an archangel as long as he remains so narrowly defined by his Word. For good or ill, the other archangels have developed beyond the simple, literal meanings of their Words, but Litheroy has been devoured by his.

Black August
Sep 28, 2003



Cythereal posted:

My response would be that Litheroy is being woefully limited by being so dedicated to his Word, and I think my spin on things would say that he is still merely an angel - and will never be an archangel as long as he remains so narrowly defined by his Word. For good or ill, the other archangels have developed beyond the simple, literal meanings of their Words, but Litheroy has been devoured by his.

Well this is why in my settings he's still just a Wordbound and fills a more fun role by being a wandering prophet type. No harm in docking him down, and you can easily spin a game by saying that his ascension to Superior status was a mistake by the Council, in hindsight, but they were trying to play blind chessboxing and made the best decision they could - they were also all reeling from Raphael dying to end Legion, and desperate to plug up holes she left behind before Hell moved to crush them on that front. He's limited, but he also exists to counter Secrets - a lot of the strategy of Heaven and Hell is trying to keep each other in check by raising Superiors to oppose some on the other side. This doesn't work out every time.

But hey, if you want him Fallen, he makes a pretty good Demon Prince of Accusation.

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund


Black August posted:

Y'know there's a reason that mass furious violent deicide is a thing in pretty much every setting I run.

Have you ever tried playing in Glorantha? Because there the gods are jerks because of a whole load of reasons. That and you might be the actual jerks.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

IF YOU SEE ME SHITTING UP A THREAD ABOUT CRITICALLY ACCLAIMED MMORPG FINAL FANTASY XIV PLEASE REMIND ME THAT I QUIT THE GAME BECAUSE IT COULD NOT HANDLE MY LOFTY CRITICISMS OF VIOLENCE IN MEDIA

AND ALSO TO SHUT THE HELL UP


Black August posted:

Well this is why in my settings he's still just a Wordbound and fills a more fun role by being a wandering prophet type. No harm in docking him down, and you can easily spin a game by saying that his ascension to Superior status was a mistake by the Council, in hindsight, but they were trying to play blind chessboxing and made the best decision they could - they were also all reeling from Raphael dying to end Legion, and desperate to plug up holes she left behind before Hell moved to crush them on that front. He's limited, but he also exists to counter Secrets - a lot of the strategy of Heaven and Hell is trying to keep each other in check by raising Superiors to oppose some on the other side. This doesn't work out every time.

But hey, if you want him Fallen, he makes a pretty good Demon Prince of Accusation.

Eh, I think I'm just not going to use him at all. Mention him as a powerful lieutenant of Yves and a staunch opponent of Jean and my homebrew Leviathan, but say he spends most of his time as Yves' head reference librarian. Go to him and you'll always get the answers you need - if not the answers you want or intended to find.

Black August
Sep 28, 2003



Josef bugman posted:

Have you ever tried playing in Glorantha? Because there the gods are jerks because of a whole load of reasons. That and you might be the actual jerks.

Nah. D&D ain't never been my bag. It'll forever be That Weird Other Game which I just safari past to gawk at.



Hey you know what I forgot last night that I missed your post a few pages back and to respond. If you get PMs feel free to toss me one with your writeup. It's been YEARS for me so I'm not exactly in competitive shape for helping with stuff, but I'd gladly give it a read and ideas.

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund


Black August posted:

Nah. D&D ain't never been my bag. It'll forever be That Weird Other Game which I just safari past to gawk at.

It's not that strange, surely!

Black August
Sep 28, 2003



Having read back some stuff, had no idea so much was already covered, it's funny to see people's reactions to Kobal and Yves. Him being cryptic has always been a stickler for other people too thinking back, but it's always been explained as him doing his best to not interfere with the Symphony, because he knows so much that saying the wrong thing at the wrong time could drive a shitload of people into their Fate. Yves tries to have a delicate touch, same as his angels, because they're playing with the Symphonic equivalent of nitroglycerin, and it WILL explode if you shake it up too much. So he's not so much cryptic as he is trying to guard his words against creating Bad End timelines. But it comes across as annoying if you don't work it right. Yves works well if he's infrequent, and less cryptic sage, and more kindly old man who tries to encourage you with some advice, because he sees the BEST that you could be, and he desperately wants you to find that in yourself. I often used him without the players even knowing who he was, or at least not saying it outright. He's another better-for-NPCs Archangel.

Kobal on the other hand is a mess, especially mechanically with his terrible dissonance. Difficult and boring. And he does come across too often as a bad Joker knockoff. A lot of fan material expanded on him in much better ways, with the intent of most book writers being that he was once the role Fate filled. He used to oppose Yves, which is an insane diametric - the Minor-Major Worded Impudite opposing the most powerful Archangel in all of existence, by cheapening everything in life into a bitter hostile joke. Kobal is meant to come across as jaded, going through the motions, not actually giving a poo poo anymore, and getting increasingly likely to do something horrible to Hell and Heaven both just to get a rise out of them. He's really smart, really bored, and also really pathetic. His Servitors are best played as very smart people who simply frame all of their works through comedy meant to demean and hurt people. They want to take the bluster and piss out of the ultra-serious assholes on both sides, who have worked up all this War into something so deadly serious that it's strangled the life out of everything.

But because they're demons, they want to make sure it ends with everyone being miserable with them. Kobal is enraged that Kronos took over his special job, and he's way way way better at it than Kobal could ever be. There's also the option a lot of writers took to, where Kobal is sort of Hell's Everyman, mocking the Princes but also assuaging their egos in diplomatic ways by mocking other Princes with them, making sure they all hate each other more than they hate him in the end, so he has a lot of social acumen. He's also a subtle counter to Asmodeus, keeping him check from becoming too powerful and Hell-controlling.

Base Kobal is just kind of a wretched 90s style giggling psychopath though, yeah. Dull.

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund


Litheroys best feature is that he really gets on Kobols tits and annoys him. There is nothing more fun than that.

Black August
Sep 28, 2003



Josef bugman posted:

Litheroys best feature is that he really gets on Kobols tits and annoys him. There is nothing more fun than that.

Taking the piss out of Kobal and making sure he knows he's old hat like a washed up tryhard comedian is the best thing. Bully not so tough since etc etc. Granted, he is a legit good tool against Asmodeus. But also likely to do awful things just to spite people who bruise his increasingly fragile ego. That's what makes Demon Princes and Hell sort of scary, they're all a lot of hyper-abused self-loathing sociopaths with a hair trigger and the Forces to back it up until they get dogpiled.

I really tried to downplay that for my Hell game though, and put a much bigger focus on the mystic aspect of Hell and Heaven, which ended up being pretty popular with some writers who turned to focus on the same things. As written, In Nomine is honestly very dry and devoid of much theological mystery or wonder. Borgstrom tried to have it happen more with her David writeup, but even then compared to the rest of the material, it came across more as David being a weird floozy with cultish aspects instead of angels actually delving into holy mysteries and the unknowable unknown. It adds a lot of flavor to Hell when you try to contrast Princes who are very earthly and material, like the Shal-Mari bloc, against Princes who are more mystical and conceptual, or could be. Some amazing poo poo has been done with Saminga in that regard, which he direly needs considering his core book and semi-expanded writeup.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

IF YOU SEE ME SHITTING UP A THREAD ABOUT CRITICALLY ACCLAIMED MMORPG FINAL FANTASY XIV PLEASE REMIND ME THAT I QUIT THE GAME BECAUSE IT COULD NOT HANDLE MY LOFTY CRITICISMS OF VIOLENCE IN MEDIA

AND ALSO TO SHUT THE HELL UP


Black August posted:

Some amazing poo poo has been done with Saminga in that regard, which he direly needs considering his core book and semi-expanded writeup.

Or run with the idea that Lucifer deliberately keeps Death in the hands of a shallow idiot, and ask why that would be.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


Black August posted:

Nah. D&D ain't never been my bag. It'll forever be That Weird Other Game which I just safari past to gawk at.

Glorantha isn't D&D, it's a hell of a lot weirder.

Count Chocula
Dec 25, 2011

WE HAVE TO CONTROL OUR ENVIRONMENT
IF YOU SEE ME POSTING OUTSIDE OF THE AUSPOL THREAD PLEASE TELL ME THAT I'M MISSED AND TO START POSTING AGAIN


quote:

Shadow Island: Rival teams from UGN, FH and False Hearts have to work together when they figure out that the Ouroboros EX Renegade they're fighting over on a remote island is the island itself, and its out to get them. Imagine if The Thing absorbed an entire island.

This is another X-Men reference- it's this plot that kicked off the Chris Claremont run. The original X-Men disappear and Professor X assembles the team of Wolverine, Storm, etc to find them on a living island.

Black August
Sep 28, 2003



Cythereal posted:

Or run with the idea that Lucifer deliberately keeps Death in the hands of a shallow idiot, and ask why that would be.

There's been a lot of ideas about Saminga. His Word has killed his brain, he's merely pretending to be stupid, he's smart but so monomaniacal that he can't make use of it beyond genius works in the field of undead, Lucifer wants a simpleton in the role so he doesn't literally murder the world, the Archangel of Death is wrecking him with Word-friction, he's actually an Undead Celestial somehow which has messed him up, and one of my favorite recent ideas from a writer doing his own side project, Saminga is a simpleton, but because he's at peace with himself and his Word - his entire philosophy is 'This Too Shall Pass', and he enrages the other Princes and disturbs them because Saminga is utterly content with the idea that they're all going to die eventually, and there's nothing they can do about it save hasten the end. The War is pointless save that it helps to end existence, so him and his Servitors just quietly go about their work and aid each other in ways that seems almost heretical to other demons.

One of my own ideas for a game seed is that Saminga, of course, in all his idiot genius, manages to figure out a way to create undead who have Words, and has been doing so for a while, but nobody noticed until the players kick the plot off.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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The Archangel of Death, btw, is heavily implied to be a Grigori, which is why they aren't around.

Black August
Sep 28, 2003



Mors Rattus posted:

The Archangel of Death, btw, is heavily implied to be a Grigori, which is why they aren't around.

Yeah. It's something that was so little detailed and kept veiled for so long that even Beth couldn't talk about it, because there was a planned big Grigori book. Which never happened of course. Maybe one day. Probably not.

Death and Song being the two. Death presumably being Azreal, and Song is Miriam. The whole thing with the Grigori was a righteous goddamn mess, both in-setting and out of setting.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

IF YOU SEE ME SHITTING UP A THREAD ABOUT CRITICALLY ACCLAIMED MMORPG FINAL FANTASY XIV PLEASE REMIND ME THAT I QUIT THE GAME BECAUSE IT COULD NOT HANDLE MY LOFTY CRITICISMS OF VIOLENCE IN MEDIA

AND ALSO TO SHUT THE HELL UP


Eh. For my purposes, before this stuff about Saminga was posted, I'd assumed Azrael was killed by Lucifer during the Fall.

Black August
Sep 28, 2003



Cythereal posted:

Eh. For my purposes, before this stuff about Saminga was posted, I'd assumed Azrael was killed by Lucifer during the Fall.

Grigori didn't exist before the Fall. They came after when Lilith popped Hell open and Heaven went "Well gently caress me, we need some way to detect these assholes" and God went "ZOOPAH" and the Grigori came into existence as the 8th Choir, with the resonance to detect disturbances, and the dissonance for not responding to them.

Azrael's existence and fate is totally unknown, so you can do literally whatever you want with them conceptually. He's not even full canon, just semi-canon. Miriam is the only unofficially 'official' Grigori Archangel.

like I said big messy dumb headache

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015


Alien Rope Burn posted:

Glorantha isn't D&D, it's a hell of a lot weirder.

But did D&D ever let you play as Donald Duck?

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

IF YOU SEE ME SHITTING UP A THREAD ABOUT CRITICALLY ACCLAIMED MMORPG FINAL FANTASY XIV PLEASE REMIND ME THAT I QUIT THE GAME BECAUSE IT COULD NOT HANDLE MY LOFTY CRITICISMS OF VIOLENCE IN MEDIA

AND ALSO TO SHUT THE HELL UP


Black August posted:

Grigori didn't exist before the Fall. They came after when Lilith popped Hell open and Heaven went "Well gently caress me, we need some way to detect these assholes" and God went "ZOOPAH" and the Grigori came into existence as the 8th Choir, with the resonance to detect disturbances, and the dissonance for not responding to them.

Azrael's existence and fate is totally unknown, so you can do literally whatever you want with them conceptually. He's not even full canon, just semi-canon. Miriam is the only unofficially 'official' Grigori Archangel.

like I said big messy dumb headache

Thus my comment that that was something I'd thought before anything was posted about how Azrael actually is in this game. I'd thought Azrael had been a powerful archangel, then Lucifer killed him and made sure his Word was taken by an idiot that Lucifer could keep firmly under control.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


Doresh posted:

But did D&D ever let you play as Donald Duck?

I wasn't intending "weird" as a pejorative.

Black August
Sep 28, 2003



Cythereal posted:

Thus my comment that that was something I'd thought before anything was posted about how Azrael actually is in this game. I'd thought Azrael had been a powerful archangel, then Lucifer killed him and made sure his Word was taken by an idiot that Lucifer could keep firmly under control.

Ooohhhh. I get you now. Yeah, just, do whatever with Death, it's seriously like 7 streets over from canon.

EDIT: NEVERMIND it'll be seen later.

Black August fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Feb 7, 2016

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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Awwww, I was saving the Grand History for when I reviewed that.

Black August
Sep 28, 2003



Mors Rattus posted:

Awwww, I was saving the Grand History for when I reviewed that.

Oh, poo poo, I'm sorry. I wanted to give some context to all the other stuff going down and being discussed. Didn't mean to jump the gun on you. :(

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

IF YOU SEE ME SHITTING UP A THREAD ABOUT CRITICALLY ACCLAIMED MMORPG FINAL FANTASY XIV PLEASE REMIND ME THAT I QUIT THE GAME BECAUSE IT COULD NOT HANDLE MY LOFTY CRITICISMS OF VIOLENCE IN MEDIA

AND ALSO TO SHUT THE HELL UP


Black August posted:

Ooohhhh. I get you now. Yeah, just, do whatever with Death, it's seriously like 7 streets over from canon.

Ah. As it is, I upgraded and PM sent.

Black August
Sep 28, 2003



Cythereal posted:

Ah. As it is, I upgraded and PM sent.

Nice. I got a party to go mingle at, so I'll check it out when I get back.

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015


Alien Rope Burn posted:

I wasn't intending "weird" as a pejorative.

Then all is well.

Crasical
Apr 22, 2014

GG!*
*GET GOOD


Kurieg posted:

Isn't that the one where the Elminster fucks all of Mystra's clergy, then is turned into a woman and fucks them all again because only lesbian sex can teach you the true meaning of magic?

:stare: What

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:



Yeah that's a thing that happened in the "Elminster - The Making of a Mage" Novel.

And yes, it was written by Greenwood.

It's where we learn that Elminster is actually a fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard/archmage and is descended from royalty and is amazing and super special and all the women in the world want him.

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007





Kurieg posted:

Yeah that's a thing that happened in the "Elminster - The Making of a Mage" Novel.

And yes, it was written by Greenwood.

It's where we learn that Elminster is actually a fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard/archmage and is descended from royalty and is amazing and super special and all the women in the world want him.

wikipedia posted:

Ed Greenwood wrote Elminster: The Making of a Mage as a hardcover novel in just 16 days,
checks out

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


When you play in Forgotten Realms, remember that you're playing in Greenwood's self-insert fiction backyard.

Never forget.

Libertad!
Oct 30, 2013

You can have the last word, but I'll have the last laugh!

Kurieg posted:

The way it works is basically AO is a true neutral rear end in a top hat who understands that Mortals need to exist, but can't fathom a reason to actually care about them. So he can't fathom why the lesser gods would care either, so he created a system where they have to care. The gods are powered by belief, and without belief they wither and die. And to ensure that the mortals would believe, he created the wall of he faithless. Where those who refused to believe would be punished for all eternity. The time of Troubles was AO enforcing the status quo.

Basically in any other setting AO would be Neutral Evil at best, and the entire checks and balances system of divinity that the Forgotten Realms has is one of the reasons I loathe the setting.

Dragonlance gets criticized pretty heavily for the role the Gods played in the Cataclysm. Basically a Lawful Good empire of Bahamut/Paladine started doing horrible poo poo to the point of no return, so the entire pantheon agreed something must be done. They dropped a meteor on the empire's capital, sending a fair portion of the eastern continent under the sea, destroying its infrastructure in the outlying provinces, as well as retreating from the world and taking all divine magic with them.

What followed was three and a half centuries of chaos, famine, and war before the book series started up and the gods returned to the world as part of the plot.

Kurieg posted:

Uhhh, I have bad news.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Sundering_%28event%29


It's flagged with a giant [citation needed] tag but the 5e people have come home to roost.


Seriously Ao just invents a magic reset button and presses it and everything from 4e goes away except for Dragonborn and Tieflings because they're okay I guess sufficiently 80's for Ed Greenwood.

Serious question. Since 5th Edition is a return to earlier times both mechanics and setting wise, why didn't the writers just rewind the clock for the setting back to the Time of Troubles/Year of Wild Magic for 5th Edition?

Rand Brittain
Mar 24, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

Libertad! posted:

Dragonlance gets criticized pretty heavily for the role the Gods played in the Cataclysm. Basically a Lawful Good empire of Bahamut/Paladine started doing horrible poo poo to the point of no return, so the entire pantheon agreed something must be done. They dropped a meteor on the empire's capital, sending a fair portion of the eastern continent under the sea, destroying its infrastructure in the outlying provinces, as well as retreating from the world and taking all divine magic with them.

What followed was three and a half centuries of chaos, famine, and war before the book series started up and the gods returned to the world as part of the plot.


Serious question. Since 5th Edition is a return to earlier times both mechanics and setting wise, why didn't the writers just rewind the clock for the setting back to the Time of Troubles/Year of Wild Magic for 5th Edition?

Because that would make all the Drizzt novels for 4e non-canon, is the only reason I've been given.

Not that nerd franchises seem to need a reason for having overcomplicated excuses for their reboots.

unseenlibrarian
Jun 4, 2012

There's only one thing in the mountains that leaves a track like this. The creature of legend that roams the Timberline. My people named him Sasquatch. You call him... Bigfoot.

To be fair, in Dragonlance, the high priest/emperor of said 'lawful good empire' was literally praying for the power to smite all remaining evil in the land (After, you know, starting genocidal purges of everyone who worshiped neutral gods and everyone who thought this was a bad idea...) at the time the meteor hit, so it was like 70 percent poetic justice.

Libertad!
Oct 30, 2013

You can have the last word, but I'll have the last laugh!

unseenlibrarian posted:

To be fair, in Dragonlance, the high priest/emperor of said 'lawful good empire' was literally praying for the power to smite all remaining evil in the land at the time the meteor hit, so it was like 70 percent poetic justice.

Quote, although the effects of the Cataclysm were felt all over Ansalon and beyond the empire's boundaries, so it's the divine equivalent of using a hammer where a scalpel might be more appropriate.

Actually, now that I think about it, the Dragonlance gods seemed more like folks put into a bad situation, given that the loss of life of an ascendant Kingpriest would've been far greater. Compared to Ao seeing the Wall of the Faithless (which was a recent invention by an evil god, or so I read somewhere) and saying "you know what, let's keep it!" and explicitly making the system the way it is for no good reason.

The Dragonlance setting and the role the gods took can make for an interesting moral conundrum in comparison, although that doesn't tie so well into D&D alignment system.

Libertad! fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Feb 7, 2016

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Don't forget the Greyhawk/Generic gods let Asmodeous trick them and create Hell because they couldn't bear to watch the horrible torture they'd ordered carried out in their name, and so said 'Instead of stopping it, go do it somewhere we can't watch.'

Kill all D&D Gods.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


Basically 4e Forgotten Realms was them trying to pare down the setting cruft to make it easier for new players to jump in with absolutely no previous knowledge of the setting. They also took the opportunity to destroy or kill off a lot of problematic things in the setting. Unfortunately those are the things that FR grognards love.

Libertad! posted:

Serious question. Since 5th Edition is a return to earlier times both mechanics and setting wise, why didn't the writers just rewind the clock for the setting back to the Time of Troubles/Year of Wild Magic for 5th Edition?

Because Salvatore and Greenwood both wrote books and they'd have to retcon out and it's far more satisfying for them to have the in-setting god line itemize all the ways in which the people you hate are wrong.

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009




Kurieg posted:

Basically 4e Forgotten Realms was them trying to pare down the setting cruft to make it easier for new players to jump in with absolutely no previous knowledge of the setting. They also took the opportunity to destroy or kill off a lot of problematic things in the setting. Unfortunately those are the things that FR grognards love.

The Drow continued to exist, so they failed. Seriously I never even thought about how loving racist their standard origin is.

Night10194 posted:

Kill all D&D Gods.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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Superiors: Litheroy - To Tell The Truth

Litheroy's Abbey is in the south of the Eternal City, in an area roughly corresponding to where the Pool of Siloam laid in Jerusalem. The Abbey is a quiet place, subdued yet beautiful in its simplicity. It is a plain thing of granite, its gardens tended by angels and relievers of Revelation as well as those blessed souls drawn to it. There are many fountains and pools along the grounds, and the pathways are made of crushed green stone. A Zen garden was set up and is tended by a Japanese soul who lived in the Kamakura period of Japan. While many of those in Heaven have never heard of the Abbey, it is appereciated well by those who want a place for quiet contemplation. Even the Wind's angels respect the serenity, most of the time. The Abbey is run as a monastery out of respect for Christianity's role in the growth of Revelation as a Word and the role of monasteries in the rise of scholarship, research and knowledge. To Litheroy, the 14th century monks illuminating manuscripts did more for Revelation than almost anyone else. The Abbey reflects their tradition, and Litheory endorses use of the Abbey for worship in the ways of the monks.

There is one difference between the Abbey and the monasteries it is modeled on, however: there are no doors. Anywhere. Litheory does not believe in privacy as a practice. If Litheroy had anything so valuable it might be stolen even in Heaven, he will publically gift it to Laurence or Dominic. Litheroy is the Abbot, referred to as Father and wearing the proper robes while on the grounds. However, he is often absent, devoting his time to archaeology and study of humans. He is never far away, though - he can get back to the Abbey in an instant, and none could accuse him of abandoning his post.



The Eel Pool is an artifact in the Abbey, and like all inside, it has no guards or defenses - though it would be admittedly quite hard to steel. It is a reflecting pool, and for 1 Essence, a visitor can use it to show a window into any outdoor scene on Earth for half an hour. The view is always from a specific perspective, and changing that perspective takes another point of Essence. The pool only shows - it cannot be used to travel or communicate. Angels often use its part of the gardens to meditate on the Labyrinth and explain the metaphor to visitors. Many still treat the Labyrinth as the enemy of Revelation rather than a philosophy, but the angels keep trying. They allow anyone who wants to to use the Eel Pool, though those that disturb the gardens' serentiy iwll be asked to leave.

One of the greatest honors Litheroy can give is to commemorate a servant in the Chambers of Discovery. Each of these rooms contains replicas of the most significant revelations Earth has known since Litheroy's ascension. Many of them are archaeological in nature, decorated to memorialize the reclamation of human history from Oblivion, but there are other rooms - for example, the revelation of the Quran to Muhammad, or the gifting of the golden tablets to Joseph Smith, or the discovery of the DNA double-helix by Francis Crick, James Watson and Rosalind Franklin. Litheroy opposes Jean's policies, but he does recognize true revelation made by humans in any field. Some of the rooms mark locations that later became Tethers to Litheroy, and often their endpoints are in the appropriate Chamber.

Litheroy's angels are known above all for their humility and love of their Archangel. They are dedicated to their work, and their work is some of the hardest of any angel. They live in pursuit of truth, and they find it heartbreaking to be unable to reveal their nature to humans. Even moreso, it is hard to have faith in all they do. For Litheroy, it is easy. He is certain and has no doubts. His angels have to have faith in Litheroy...and he's not exactly shy about admitting when he doesn't know things. Despite the difficulty and the distance other angels keep from them and the need to take so much on faith while being devoted to that which can be verified, they maintain a humble serenity and quiet joy. It's not easy, but it's important - they know because Litheroy says so, and he never, ever lies.



One of Litheroy's first servants and most loyal is Chamuel, Angel of the Quest for the Holy Grail, Elohite Seeker and Master of Discovery. He has the special Rite of entertaining a child with any tale of the quest for the Holy Grail, and the special power to see at a glance if anyone has ever encountered the true Grail, whether they know it or not. For many years, he was quite active in the service of Revelation, using his analytical mind to find the truth behind superstitions and mysticism. All of that changed when he encountered the Grail during the war with Legion. He was part of a mixed group of angels, demons and Soldiers, pinned down by Legion's possessed forces and in danger of death. They hid in a ruined chapel, where they were amazed by the sight of the Grail. One demon was destroyed, but the others all ended up Redeeming, and all of the Hellsworn present turned to God. Even the angels were affected, and Chamuel discovered the mystery that would forever give him peace and yet also enthrall him. In the days that followed, he found himself comforted by the memories of the Grail and began to notice the impact it had on others. He studied the legends of the Grail among humans and was astounded by the power of these stories. He began to hunt for the Grail. Eventually, his attention to his work began to slip, and Litheroy noticed, asking what had changed. Chamuel explained his investigation and the hold it had on him, and so Litheroy decided Chamuel should follow his heart, and gave him the Seekr Distinction and, eventually, sponsored him for the Word of the Holy Grail. However, Chamuel explained to the Council that the calling of his heart was not the Grail, but the human quest for it, which he wanted to understand. He was more interested in what the Grail meant to them and their quests than the Grail itself, and so he was given the Word of the Quest for the Holy Grail, which he has held since. Today, he spends most of his time studying archaeologists, antiquities dealers and scholars who study the Grail. He also hunts out those who have found the Grail and observes how their experience changed them and how they inspire others. He still works to fight Hell and dispel secrets, but his first calling is always his quest.

Efion, Mercurian of Revelation, is a rather standard angel of Revelation. The first time she found herself caught between her duty and a lie, she chose to lie and became dissonant. Litheroy recalled her and had her work in the Abbey for four years under a Truthful Discord - not all that harsh in Heaven, at least. After this penance, she has recently been allowed to haead back to Earth, determined to prove her commitment and her worth. She is a scholar of literature, trained to interpert the truths within literature and to write engaging essays. She works in academic environments, hunting for secrets amond the students, though her lack of Role leaves her at the fringes rather than deep within the lives of her classmates. She accepts this as a challenge.

For outsiders, the monastic order of the Abbey seems to be just a metaphor giving meaning to the work of the angels. It is not. Litheroy has devised his own method of praising God and organized his work around the idea of a monastic order, and his angels are expected to be both devoted and scholarly. The act of study is a pious act, to them, and revealing God's Truth is sacred. The angels are expected to work at the duties of monks: prayer and labor, including copying and illuminating manuscripts, educating themselves and others, creating art that illuminates the truth, keeping and distributing historical documentation and doing missionary work on Earth. The Abeby is monastic, but part of Heaven, and these angels are expected to work with others, though they are often isolated by the distance other angels keep. They are frugal, but the Abbey is not specifically Catholic, and they take no vows of chastity, celibacy or poverty. Rather, they vow to seek truth, explore the Labyrinth, preserve knowledge, discover secrets and foil infernal plots. In Heaven, the angels of Revelation generally wear gray robes with bare heads, if they have heads. Gender is not important, however. LEaders of the order are those with Distinctions, who head up projects based on talent, skill and experience in the area. None has ever taken a vow of silence.



Litheroy is not unkind, but he lacks certain perspectives. He's trying to learn, but he just doesn't understand how his angels might become dissonant by his Word's conditions. After all, it only comes from lying, and none of them should willingly deceive anyone. As a result, he tends to grill dissonant angels, to tell if their dissonance was from their Choir or the Word. If it's Choir, he is saddened and concerned, and will usually assign them to Tether duty to work it off, where they should contemplate their failure. Often this punishment lasts twice as long as would be needed to work off the dissonance. If it is bad enough to cause Discord, he will recall the angel to the Abbey, where the Discord is clear to see, and the angel will be expected to explain the circumstance both to Litheroy and the Inquisition, then labor for a long period in Heaven on top of any sentence given by Judgment. Dissonance or Discord from the Word, however, stuns Litheroy. He can't accept it as anything but betryal, and he will remove signs of his favor for it - if the lie is bad enough, even Rites or attunements - and often remove the dissonance but inflict a Truthful Discord with level of however many notes of dissonance there were. He will require significant penance before he removes that. Litheroy really does not grasp the gray area his angels exist in and the fact that they can be caught between Heavenly Law and their dissonance condition. Because Litheroy's intolerance of this is well known, many of his angels prefer to avoid Heaven until they can cleanse themselves, or even lie about how they became dissonant...outside Litheroy's presence, that is. None would dare lie to him. Many Fallen Litherites start on this sort of downward spiral.

Fortunately, at least, Litheroy does not mind failed missions. All he cares about is that you did your best. He will be honest about his doubts over your abilities later, of course, and those who fail a lot will usually get assigned to busywork in the Abbey until Litheroy can find a job he thinks they are competent enough for. His rewards tend to be a pat on the back - he belivees the work is its own reward, and if you want something, he expects you to ask for it and tell him why you want it. If he doesn't think you deserve it, he'll say so and tell you what might change his mind. He's not stingy, and if he has the resources to indulge a favored angel's whim, he will. The ultimate rward, though, is to have your discovery or one you were involved in be commemorated in the Chambers of Discovery.



Many of Litheroy's angels can't meet his standards. Either you have the calling to absolute truth or you don't. If an angel finds an Archangel they could better serve, they must explain and justify their desire to Litheroy, once they're sure that Archangel will welcome them. If Litheroy feels they'll continue to puruse truth, he permits the transfer. He may even allow the angel to keep their Rites and attunements, though never Distinctions.

Litheroy believes deepyl that Redemption is the ultimate forswearing of the lies of Hell. He accepts the Redeemed as living proof of this, and he treats those that survive it with respect, as well as honoring those who perish in the attempt. Not many Redeemed serve him, however, even when he Redeems them. After the lies and deceptions of hell, it's hard for them to embrace Litheroy's truth. Further, he would not accept a Redeemed until after a full debriefing by Judgment. Those that leave the debriefing amenable to Litheroy's methods usually end up working for Judgment or Destiyn instead. The few who enter Litheroy's service are generally begun in the Abbey, to get used to the life.

Litheroy has managed, at least, to recruit many Soldiers. Most tend to be more at home in museums or colleges than fighting Hellsworn directly, but they are a great resource. Part of their value is existing within the Symphony and having a real human life - deeply valuable for angels with no Roles, like all Litherites. While only the Mercurians will admit it, and it would horrify Litheroy, it's also useful to have assistants that can lie for you...though they have to be told well away from the angels they're helping. Experienced Soldiers of REvelation understand this. Litheroy and his angels bond with servants in order to better understand them, though it always ends up changing the humans involved. The Mercurians grasp this, but it tends to be hard for other Choirs.





Seraphim of Revelation are the finest detectives in an organization made entirely of detectives. They are the greatest enemies of Secrets and the best at finding more unpleasant truths, as their attunement makes their resonance exceptionally reliable and powerful. They are some of the best in Heaven at finding the truth, and they take full advantage of it.

Next time: Choirs

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Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018



Superiors: Litheroy - The Final Revelation

Cherubim of Revelation were once the vanguard against Mariel. While she is gone, their ability to discover when someone is hiding their attuned makes them great soldiers against Alaemon today, especially when forcing the dmons of Secrets to become dissonant by revealing what they try to hide each day. They are often sent to fight Secrets and often know quite about about Alaemon's many Secret Societies.

Ofanim of Revelation are Litheroy's bloodhounds, who excel at pursuing his foes. They often work with Malakim to hunt out and destroy the enemies of Heaven, and they are some of the most frequent of Litheroy's angels to be requested by Laurence. They tend to spend less time studying humans than fighting demons.

Elohim of Revelation are the core of Revelation's scientists. They work as arachaeologists, anthropologists, sociologists and criminoligists, using their keen minds to fill in the blanks. They understand more than most that revealing a secret is only the start - learning why it was hidden can lead to far more discoveries. Their analytical nature allows them to be some of the few angels of Revelation that can cooperate with Lightning...but even so, they are Litherites, and they will reveal any secrets they are told.

Malakim of Revelation are Litheroy's warriors, who often serve alongside War or the Sword. They use their uncanny knack for recognizing foes to hunt out demons. They often work at this hunt with Ofanim, revealing truth at the point of a sword.



Kyriotates of Lightning tend to use their attunement for many purposes. Sure, they become expert trackers...but they also learn the territories of the animals they possess, giving them a great picture of an area, which can be quite useful in unfamiliar territory. Further, they are very good at finding lost children and items, and that can make humans trust them quite easily. Litheroy also values their ability to see from many perspectives.

Mercurians of Revelation are masters of exploring hte Labyrinth. They understand the human mind and can sense secrets easily, and they have great insight into humanity. The best of them can unravel the webs of deceit humans weave themselves into, leaving behind humans that understand each other a bit better. However, they also are most likely to become Dissonant or leave Litheroy's service thanks to their understanding of humans and the need to deceive.



There's a few hooks but none of them are very interesting.

The end!

Next up: GM's Guide, Corporeal Player's Guide, Liber Canticorum, Revelations 1: Night Music or Superiors: Asmodeus?

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