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Detective No. 27
Jun 7, 2006



I was far more annoyed that Sally Hawkins was killed in KoTM.

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CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013



Yeah but it really hammered in how much of an rear end in a top hat Kevin was.

We all think he’s cute!!! He is not! He’s a menace!

Vintersorg
Mar 3, 2004

PRESIDENT OF THE OFFICIAL BRENDAN FRASER FAN CLUB




Martman posted:

Well I convinced my friends to see it based on Juliette Binoche being in it, they were so pissed!!

Karloff
Mar 21, 2013



Cranston was at the peak of his popularity with Breaking Bad having just finished or been on its last season or so. Though I love Godzilla, a lot of my friends are very much disinterested and so Cranston was a major draw and it was probably a bummer that he died. I don't think it was a bad idea to kill him off creatively at all, but from a box office perspective I would guess that KOTMs drop from the first, in part, may have occurred due the lack of that draw. It is all anecdotal but I know that my friends who were keen to see the first due to Cranston, sat out the second entirely.

Tezcatlipoca
Sep 18, 2009


They were never going to be honest with the movie if all they wanted was more Breaking Bad. Those people usually have gently caress awful taste anyway.

Vintersorg
Mar 3, 2004

PRESIDENT OF THE OFFICIAL BRENDAN FRASER FAN CLUB




That's a pretty stupid thing to say.

Breaking Bad was quite good and is well regarded for many good reasons. Plus it gave us the wonderful Better Call Saul which I personally enjoy more.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



Tezcatlipoca posted:

That says more about you than American kaiju movies.

Thank you, I do have discerning taste don't I?

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


It would have been nice to have a kaiju movie where a top-tier character actor played Captain Ahab with a kaiju white whale. That's not what we got, and judging G14 on that basis isn't fair to it, but it's also not a coincidence that that's what people were expecting if you go back at look at how it was marketed.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



Tuxedo Catfish posted:

It would have been nice to have a kaiju movie where a top-tier character actor played Captain Ahab with a kaiju white whale. That's not what we got, and judging G14 on that basis isn't fair to it, but it's also not a coincidence that that's what people were expecting if you go back at look at how it was marketed.

They tried to do that with Sam Jackson in Skull Island but it was pretty lame

Vince MechMahon
Jan 1, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 6 days!


Uncle Boogeyman posted:

They tried to do that with Sam Jackson in Skull Island but it was pretty lame

Nope it was the best part of that movie. Love Viet Kong: Skull Island

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



Vince MechMahon posted:

Nope it was the best part of that movie.

low bar imo

Tezcatlipoca
Sep 18, 2009


Uncle Boogeyman posted:

Thank you, I do have discerning taste don't I?

No, it sounds like you are trying to make yourself sound more sophisticated than you are by saying ~*American*~ kaiju movies are bad. When you really just sound like a tiresome tool.

If you want to ignore them fine but that's fuckin dumb.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



Tezcatlipoca posted:

No, it sounds like you are trying to make yourself sound more sophisticated than you are by saying ~*American*~ kaiju movies are bad. When you really just sound like a tiresome tool.

If you want to ignore them fine but that's fuckin dumb.

I'm not opposed to the idea of an American Kaiju movie being good. I was very excited for King of the Monsters after that awesome trailer, but it kinda sucked, no?

I won't lie though, the idea that I'm trying to sound "sophisticated" by professing a love for movies where guys in big rubber lizard suits pound the crap out of each other is very fun.

Uncle Boogeyman fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Feb 27, 2021

Gatts
Jan 2, 2001

Goodnight Moon


Nap Ghost

A good American Kaiju movie is Ang Lee’s Hulk

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



Gatts posted:

A good American Kaiju movie is Ang Lee’s Hulk

I'm not sure I agree with this take but I respect it (I keep meaning to do an Ang Lee-a-thon, partially as an excuse to revisit this for the first time since 2003)

Asterite34
May 19, 2009




How do Ray Harryhausen movies like The Beast From 20,000 Fathoms, or Bert I Gordon giant superimposed bug movies like Tarantula! figure into the genre of "American Kaiju movies"? Because some of those were alright.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



Asterite34 posted:

How do Ray Harryhausen movies like The Beast From 20,000 Fathoms, or Bert I Gordon giant superimposed bug movies like Tarantula! figure into the genre of "American Kaiju movies"? Because some of those were alright.

I mentioned them upthread, I'm of two minds on it but there is definitely a clear lineage from Beast to Godzilla so the argument is certainly there to be made.

My fave Harryhausen is probably 20 Million Miles to Earth. The Ymir is real and strong and he's my friend.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


Uncle Boogeyman posted:

I mentioned them upthread, I'm of two minds on it but there is definitely a clear lineage from Beast to Godzilla so the argument is certainly there to be made.

My fave Harryhausen is probably 20 Million Miles to Earth. The Ymir is real and strong and he's my friend.

Beast is pretty much only good for the effects and nothing more. The short story is also one of the best kaiju prose anything in history, for the record. That thing *captures* what it means to be a kaiju story

but the movie proper is a slog for anything that isn't Rhedo.

It's still incredibly important and influential though- it effectively is why we have Godzilla, far more than even King Kong. While we wouldn't have Godzilla without King Kong, you could also say the same for the original Lost World- both had a near equal amount of impact, due to how separated they were. Beast, though, is directly responsible and a lot of Godzilla is born through taking what was there and making it better and nuanced.

20 Million Miles to Earth is up there for one of the best movies of the 50s so

Bert's stuff was largely based on the formula set up by THEM! which is the other Most Important (and also, just really drat good) kaiju movie of the 50s. THEM! and Gojira are basically top of the heap- and amazingly, both came out at the same time.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



Burkion posted:

Beast is pretty much only good for the effects and nothing more. The short story is also one of the best kaiju prose anything in history, for the record. That thing *captures* what it means to be a kaiju story

but the movie proper is a slog for anything that isn't Rhedo.

I disagree on this one, Beast from 20,000 Fathoms is fun! It Came From Beneath the Sea, now there’s a movie that’s only good for the Harryhausen effects and nothing else.

You’re definitely right about Ray Bradbury’s The Fog Horn though, every Kaiju fan should read that one.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


There are absolutely plenty of good American kaiju films. Gorgo is a US/UK coproduction, for example.

The issue is that, when people talk about 'kaiju movies', they're interchangeably talking about a genre, an aesthetic, a specific type of special effect (i.e. the specific mix of minatures and suitmation), the bare plot content, etc. Depending on what you actually mean by 'kaiju movie', you could plausibly argue that Shin Godzilla isn't one. But then what good is that?

Part of the issue is that "kaiju" is perceived as this exotic term, so "American kaiju" is almost an oxymoron that means 'American but not really American', and therefore excludes films like Jurassic Park. Kaiju tokusatsu films are literally just movies that use special effects to depict large monsters. The idea that there was some major difference in character between the 'Eastern' and Western' approaches is something of a historical illusion. It probably made a lot more sense in the 1950s - but it was never really true, given the level of continuity and cross-pollination.

Jurassic Park was massively influential in the genre, while also openly declaring itself a King Kong movie. Its sequel is a straight-up remake of The Lost World 1925, which featured a third-act brontosaurus rampage through London. And then, Spielberg's War Of The Worlds is very obviously a kaiju film. Some would argue 'mecha' because the cyborg tripods are technically piloted, but that's splitting hairs.

There's also just no clear line between a 'rogue animal' movie and a 'giant monster' movie. Lake Placid's massive crocodile isn't significantly different in size or behavior from the lake monster in Legend Of Dinosaurs And Monster Birds, for example. Moreover, War Of The Worlds 1953 proves that the only difference between a mech and a plane is legs.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.






Grimey Drawer

Uncle Boogeyman posted:

I disagree on this one, Beast from 20,000 Fathoms is fun! It Came From Beneath the Sea, now there’s a movie that’s only good for the Harryhausen effects and nothing else.

You’re definitely right about Ray Bradbury’s The Fog Horn though, every Kaiju fan should read that one.

It Came From Beneath The Sea does have a neat weird proto-feminist subplot.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



Maxwell Lord posted:

It Came From Beneath The Sea does have a neat weird proto-feminist subplot.

featuring Faith Domergue from This Island Earth!

still kind of a snooze though

Asterite34
May 19, 2009




I feel a cut-off point for a Kaiju is "Is it small enough that you, a single person, could shoot it with a somewhat conventional gun enough that it would die, barring other external factors?" If "no," it's a kaiju, notable for defying the collective power of civilization itself.

If "yes," it's more of a rogue animal movie, where it's just really unfortunate that it's in a situation where you can't just get the Army to shoot it.

Note that with this metric, Graboids from Tremors just barely don't count as a kaiju, because while they take a LOT of bullets to kill, two gun nuts in a basement managed to take one down once it wasn't under dirt. The Shark from Jaws is also presumably not immune to just being shot.

feedmyleg
Dec 25, 2004

EVERY FAIRY TALE NEEDS ITS HERO.



By that definition, an elephant is a kaiju.

Drakyn
Dec 26, 2012



Asterite34 posted:

The Shark from Jaws is also presumably not immune to just being shot.

Bullets don't penetrate water well

Martman
Nov 20, 2006

SEXY... defines my posts and my ride


Drakyn posted:

Bullets don't penetrate water well
Is the ocean a kaiju?

Asterite34
May 19, 2009




feedmyleg posted:

By that definition, an elephant is a kaiju.

Elephant Guns


Drakyn posted:

Bullets don't penetrate water well

External factor, like the Graboid being underground.

feedmyleg
Dec 25, 2004

EVERY FAIRY TALE NEEDS ITS HERO.



Asterite34 posted:

Elephant Guns

Ah yes, the somewhat convenientional elephant gun. Classically conventional in that it had to be invented to kill one particular animal because a conventional gun was not able.

But, I mean, whales are definitely kaiju in my book.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


and we're back to Moby Dick

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink


Martman posted:

Is the ocean a kaiju?

Not by default, but it doesn't take much to depict it as one.

Happy Noodle Boy
Jul 3, 2002



Tuxedo Catfish posted:

and we're back to Moby Dick

the original kaiju

Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


Happy Noodle Boy posted:

the original kaiju

Close, that's the Kraken

Asterite34
May 19, 2009




Happy Noodle Boy posted:

the original kaiju

Pretty sure Tiamat from the Enuma Elish gets that prize. Either that or one of the things Gilgamesh fights.

Mantis42
Jul 26, 2010



This discussion inspired me to make a chart:

Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


Mantis42 posted:

This discussion inspired me to make a chart:



Replace King Kong.

Kong has never resembled a real animal.

Put like

A whale or something on there

Mantis42
Jul 26, 2010



He resembles a gorilla

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.






Grimey Drawer

He's A Gorilla But Big, it's just our idea of a gorilla in 1933 was "hairy fanged manbeast"

Happy Noodle Boy
Jul 3, 2002



Mantis42 posted:

This discussion inspired me to make a chart:



This owns.

McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005







Mantis42 posted:

This discussion inspired me to make a chart:



Love it, love everything about it. This has also convinced me that, in order to be logically consistent with everything I've considered a kaiju before, I must consider myself Size Neutral, Form Rebel.

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brocked
Oct 25, 2005

All shall love me and despair!


Top middle could be the giant gila monster, top right should be Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man or the Blob

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