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FanaticalMilk
Mar 11, 2011




RoadCrewWorker posted:

Pity the training features are goddamn abysmal and there doesn't seem to be any ingame support besides raw movelist that have useless "sample combos" without any details on timing or positioning? Seems like 99% of the "info" in the game on even the most basic game mechanics is delivered exclusively via completely random and sparse loading screen "hints". Guess they really didn't expect anyone to come to the series that hadn't played every other game before it to bring their bnbs along, or - as i quickly did - just youtube all of that.

I don't know if this is the reason there's no great tutorial but Harada has always stated he doesn't like releasing frame data because he thinks it stifles player's creativity. Again, I don't think this completely excuses the barebones tutorial or lack of training options, but I do think there's something to be said for forcing players to figure out mechanics and interactions through play instead of number crunching outside of the game.

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AttackBacon
Nov 19, 2010
DEEP FRIED DIARRHEA



I may be making this up but I recall a Harada interview where he says they purposefully don't include in-depth tutorials, frame data, etc, because it would ruin the joy of discovery and that is something he feels is core to fighting games. I think he has a point in a way, but at the same time it's 2018 and let's just loving get over it already. That being said, your best bet is an outside resource like the Tekken Zaibatsu forums (http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forums/).

As for the game itself, I totally agree with what you are saying about the feel of it. Tekken is probably the best fighting game (that isn't like...Smash or something) to just pick up and start mashing in. It's very intuitive and things just tend to do what you'd think they should do, at least in my experience. It's got a ridiculous ceiling in terms of mechanical execution but the floor is really low for absolute beginners. Compared to stuff like QCF motions to access basic specials in SF or something.

dragon enthusiast
Jan 1, 2010


harada is 20 years too late in trying to stop people from figuring out and disseminating frame data across the world

RoadCrewWorker
Nov 19, 2007

camels aren't so great


But now instead of learning the stuff ingame i'm having to crunch through various wikis or 320p youtube video with widely varying notation, half of which is inconsistent or maybe even out of date with patches, if i'm even lucky enough to have input hints included. I'm not sure i'd call that feeling the wonder of discovery. Does he just want everyone to lab in the dark for months trying to reinvent the wheel? What does he thing he's making, an ARG?

inthesto posted:

You have to set the dummy to No Action -> Guard All to know if something is actually a combo
Is that the same as "block everything after first hit" except named horribly? And yeah the hit counter doesn't seem to make a distinction between "true" combos and escapable ones. Which also doesn't seems particularly helpful for players trying to figure that stuff out in the lab or a match.

Romes128
Dec 28, 2008




Fun Shoe

RoadCrewWorker posted:

But now instead of learning the stuff ingame i'm having to crunch through various wikis or 320p youtube video with widely varying notation, half of which is inconsistent or maybe even out of date with patches, if i'm even lucky enough to have input hints included. Does he just want everyone to lab in the dark for months trying to reinvent the wheel?

Is that the same as "block everything after first hit" except named horribly? And yeah the hit counter doesn't seem to make a distinction between "true" combos and escapable ones. Which also doesn't seems particularly helpful for players trying to figure that stuff out in the lab or a match.

it actually turns a different color if its not a real combo

FrameWhisperer on youtube does a decent job of character tutorials. Pick a character and look up a guide.,

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.



DLC Inc posted:

Had no idea about the Siegfried Dark Legacy "minigame," that owns. Yeah it'll probably almost never come up much like Shenron in DBZ but it's still really cool that the devs put stuff like that in the game, it shows a level of creativity and care in their product and in the offchance those things do appear in a close match, it's always loving cool.

It owns and reminds me of some of the awesome poo poo in the Fatal Fury games like Mai's super that you have to perform while taunting or how B. Jenet has that super move you can do as you just defend where she beats the opponent with her shoe.

ROFL Octopus
Jun 20, 2014

LET ME EXPLAIN



AttackBacon posted:

I was watching an aris youtube highlight and he said "I got those beats by infiltration" and I laughed because I am a terrible person but then I was sad. I always liked Infiltration but that poo poo is absolutely unacceptable.

The infiltration tale is rather interesting, going from rather disliked having seemingly come from out of nowhere and being rather bland, to being widely loved when his goofy personality could shine, to being hated because heís a domestic abuser with audio evidence.

Itís just one wild ride

RoadCrewWorker
Nov 19, 2007

camels aren't so great


Romes128 posted:

it actually turns a different color if its not a real combo

FrameWhisperer on youtube does a decent job of character tutorials. Pick a character and look up a guide.,
Cool thanks, will do

BattleTech
Jun 6, 2010

Is this easy mode?


Fun Shoe

RoadCrewWorker posted:

But now instead of learning the stuff ingame i'm having to crunch through various wikis or 320p youtube video with widely varying notation, half of which is inconsistent or maybe even out of date with patches, if i'm even lucky enough to have input hints included. I'm not sure i'd call that feeling the wonder of discovery. Does he just want everyone to lab in the dark for months trying to reinvent the wheel? What does he thing he's making, an ARG?

RIP Eliza's super easy infinite.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQuNjHpcIA8

teh_Broseph
Oct 21, 2010

THE LAST METROID IS IN
CATTIVITY. THE GALAXY
IS AT PEACE...

Lipstick Apathy

It drives me nuts that in The Greatest Fighting Game Tekken 7 if there's some funky looking move or string I can't figure out in match how to block/dodge/punish, the only way I know to do that is something like:

Already be recording the match with third party software
Play the video back
Go to training mode as the other character
Mash buttons or go through the 200+ movelist to find what the move is
Google the frame data
Reload training mode to switch characters
Record or move playback the dummy to the move
OK now like 15 minutes later I can take all of 30 seconds to see what my punish option is

And if I'm playing in the living room via Steam Link which is like half my playtime, then I guess I'd have to prop my phone up and be camera recording the match like we're still on Tekken 3.

Whoever mentioned not knowing what they're doing in SFV and just getting blown up or getting lucky landing some hits into combos..replays are your best friend! Learning some stuff is a billionty times easier in SFV cause you can just load up your replay, see what happened, see the inputs, and recreate the situation in training mode to see/practice how to handle it. Load up the reps and just see overall what happened, then look for specifics to hop in training mode a few minutes to see what's up with them. E.g. (I haven't played SFV in forever so pulling moves out of my rear end):
Play back a match watching it just like you would some random stream, maybe a somewhat close match that you felt suffocated in. First playback just look at the general flow, what'd the life bars look like, what kind of ranges did stuff happen, who was pushing who back to the wall, was the damage coming from pokes adding up or a few big combos.
Second playback, now you know some specifics to look for. Say on first playback you notice this Karin was constantly in your face hitting buttons. OK, looking at the animations and the inputs you see they kept doing jab jab fierce and clipping you maybe leading to a combo. Watching through you notice most of the round you did OK but that string kept getting you for a lot of damage.
Then load up training mode, record the dummy doing the jab jab fierce or whatever string. Check out the frame data, and hey maybe it turns out that fierce they ended with is -15 on block and you have a combo you can do off an 8 frame starter - practice blocking that string and hitting the punish combo, and boom get matched up against them and it's easy breezy.

Not always as fun as just mashing new match, but you can get awesome improvements by just watching a replay, finding one basic thing you were doing wrong (bad timing on meaty sweeps after a throw and whiffing, not knowing what button to hit to anti air jumpins, etc.), hammering it out a bit in training mode, then focus on that in your next few matches if you can. Maybe you get blown up, but hey if you got the timing right on those meaty sweeps then pat yourself on the back and go back to playing regular, knowing that's one mistake checked off the list that's now fixed in your muscle memory.

RoadCrewWorker
Nov 19, 2007

camels aren't so great


Yeah i'm coming from CF, a game that by default records any pvp match you play and let's you watch a slow motion frame by frame playback with precise input visualization for both players, even if you were just spectating in a player room. They even give you achievements for doing that to show you what a good idea it might be. I guess that's the kind of stuff i take for granted until it's missing.

Of course Tekken has (at least from my short experience so far) better netcode and an actual playerbase, so you know, ups and downs

Dracula Factory
Sep 7, 2007




Yeah Tekken could really use a replay feature, but at least on PC we have plenty of tools to record video. But even then you don't get enemy inputs.

In Training
Jun 28, 2008



It doesn't take that long to learn how to punish stuff in Tekken. It doesn't save replays but you go into training mode, make a dummy do whatever move it was and then try to punish it with different moves for a bit. It's not rocket science

teh_Broseph
Oct 21, 2010

THE LAST METROID IS IN
CATTIVITY. THE GALAXY
IS AT PEACE...

Lipstick Apathy

In Training posted:

It doesn't take that long to learn how to punish stuff in Tekken. It doesn't save replays but you go into training mode, make a dummy do whatever move it was and then try to punish it with different moves for a bit. It's not rocket science

Yeh that's the easy part, annoying part is getting from trying to remember exactly what the string looked like they were using to getting the dummy to do it, especially when new to the game. It's not rocket science, just way more work than all the other FGs where you hit replay and there it is with the input. Harada take that season 2 money and add replays pppllllssss

In Training
Jun 28, 2008



That's true, it should have built in replay like every FG ever at this point

ReVerve
Jul 13, 2001

Select and make your first pick.




Biscuit Hider

But how many drinks in does Shun Di have to be in before you start to really worry?

chumbler
Mar 28, 2010



Something I wish Tekken and Soul Calibur would have in training mode is a dynamic move list display like in the Bayonetta loading screens. So if you hit a particular button or direction and button a window displays the followups for it, and then the next step from that one and so on. Obviously it wouldn't be able to really cover links and juggles and such, but it would be more intuitive than scrolling through a list.

Maybe this exists and I've not found the option.

chumbler fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Oct 12, 2018

Brosnan
Nov 13, 2004

Christ, not this shit again.

Lipstick Apathy

teh_Broseph posted:

Already be recording the match with third party software
Play the video back
Go to training mode as the other character
Mash buttons or go through the 200+ movelist to find what the move is
Google the frame data

Helpful tip: if someone punches you with their right hand it's because they pressed the right punch button. I realize it would be nice if the game would shortcut all this for you but being vigilant and learning everyone's basic movesets over time is something that's going to benefit you in the long run anyway so it's a good habit to be in.

Also they don't invest a lot in tutorials because it turns out it's one of those features that everyone says they want but no one actually uses. Most new players want to just jump in and think they're better at video games than they are, so they bypass tutorials even if there's useful information in them. This is also why Tekken Tag 2 tried Fight Lab as a concept; the goal was to teach concepts in a way that's just veiled enough that scrubs won't be scared away by the word "tutorial," but it's a shitload of dev effort that can better be spent on other things.

RoadCrewWorker
Nov 19, 2007

camels aren't so great


I mean, i'm also jumping into game _7_ in the series (and that's just titled entries) fresh and got plenty of youtube lists, so i guess that dev time is better spent on making more swimsuits

also i've got all the pro tips i could ever need right here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw4gbmqQ3cM

RoadCrewWorker fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Oct 12, 2018

Poniard
Apr 3, 2011





I think someone in this very thread said something along the lines "fighting game tutorials are only there for veterans to tell people who would never use the tutorials how good the tutorials are"

b_d
Sep 10, 2017



i love tutorials and challenges

mostly challenges

anime was right
Jun 27, 2008

death is certain
keep yr cool


Poniard posted:

I think someone in this very thread said something along the lines "fighting game tutorials are only there for veterans to tell people who would never use the tutorials how good the tutorials are"

they're useful for mid level players getting used to a new style of game, but kind of pointless otherwise

Tales of Woe
Dec 17, 2004



Poniard posted:

I think someone in this very thread said something along the lines "fighting game tutorials are only there for veterans to tell people who would never use the tutorials how good the tutorials are"

even the 'good' ones like unist are good because they're thorough, not because they teach you how to improve at playing fighting games against real people which is where the actual barrier to entry is in fighting games

Real hurthling!
Sep 11, 2001






b_d posted:

i love tutorials and challenges

mostly challenges

Yah

dragon enthusiast
Jan 1, 2010


I still think that fg matchmaking should secretly throw brand new players against CPU ghosts if they can't find anybody near their skill level

Poniard
Apr 3, 2011





doesnt killer instinct do that

Ryoga
Sep 10, 2003
Eternally Lost

chumbler posted:

Something I wish Tekken and Soul Calibur would have in training mode is a dynamic move list display like in the Bayonetta loading screens. So if you hit a particular button or direction and button a window displays the followups for it, and then the next step from that one and so on. Obviously it wouldn't be able to really cover links and juggles and such, but it would be more intuitive than scrolling through a list.

Maybe this exists and I've not found the option.

Dead or alive definitely does this in some of their training modes.

Smoking Crow
Feb 13, 2012

*laughs at u*


chumbler posted:

Something I wish Tekken and Soul Calibur would have in training mode is a dynamic move list display like in the Bayonetta loading screens. So if you hit a particular button or direction and button a window displays the followups for it, and then the next step from that one and so on. Obviously it wouldn't be able to really cover links and juggles and such, but it would be more intuitive than scrolling through a list.

Maybe this exists and I've not found the option.

VF4 did that

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

dragon enthusiast posted:

I still think that fg matchmaking should secretly throw brand new players against CPU ghosts if they can't find anybody near their skill level

Poniard posted:

doesnt killer instinct do that

The problem is the tactics that'll enable you to prevail against a CPU won't be the same that'd help you against a human. In fact it's probably gonna encourage bad habits. Basically the CPU's following a script based on an instantaneous reading of your current state (and not your inputs like people tend to say. Inputs are a thoroughly useless thing to read compared to state) with no capacity for improvisation and you're trying to find the situations you can exploit, the ones for which the script calls for the wrong action. KI's shadows still fall into that category, only instead of being authored by some geek their scripts are automatically compiled from recordings of the couple dozen most recent matches from the shadowed player for the relevant matchup. This makes them seem more human and yeah, they'll pick up mannerisms like teabagging, but they're still following the "instantaneous reaction without improvisation" model, quite unlike human players. Basically mindgames are absent, because there's no mind to fight against, only shadows.

Poniard
Apr 3, 2011





Chev posted:

The problem is the tactics that'll enable you to prevail against a CPU won't be the same that'd help you against a human. In fact it's probably gonna encourage bad habits. Basically the CPU's following a script based on an instantaneous reading of your current state (and not your inputs like people tend to say. Inputs are a thoroughly useless thing to read compared to state) with no capacity for improvisation and you're trying to find the situations you can exploit, the ones for which the script calls for the wrong action. KI's shadows still fall into that category, only instead of being authored by some geek their scripts are automatically compiled from recordings of the couple dozen most recent matches from the shadowed player for the relevant matchup. This makes them seem more human and yeah, they'll pick up mannerisms like teabagging, but they're still following the "instantaneous reaction without improvisation" model, quite unlike human players. Basically mindgames are absent, because there's no mind to fight against, only shadows.

In Training
Jun 28, 2008



Quake Champions did that and it was loving annoying

Veib
Dec 10, 2007




Grimey Drawer

Brosnan posted:

Wow no love for the all time best idiotic "I'm playing a different game from you" character?

I loved vanilla Phoenix because at some point I realized playing bad characters sucks and isn't worth it so I took it to its logical conclusion and only play good characters these days, so I played Wolverine/Sentinel/Phoenix because I love Tokido

Veib fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Oct 13, 2018

PaletteSwappedNinja
Jun 3, 2008

One Nation, Under God.

TvC's giants were lame as hell but only one of them was good and he wasn't fun and neither was TvC.

Graphic
Sep 4, 2018

It's like Lenin said

Tekken should have a tutorial but eh, you can get all the basic concepts in an hour on YouTube. Not having frame-date in training mode is inexcusable though. That adventure of "discovery" for frame data falls on a handful of ultra nerds who then disseminate it to everyone else, so in the end all it does is make you really want two monitors, alt tabbing, or printing poo poo out like a cave man. Just put it in the game.

Smoking Crow posted:

VF4 did that

Best fighting game ever made. RIP VF

MechaX
Nov 19, 2011

"Let's be positive! Let's start a fire!"


PaletteSwappedNinja posted:

TvC's giants were lame as hell but only one of them was good and he wasn't fun and neither was TvC.

I really loved Tekkaman Blade and not much else from TvC, but Blade still made it worth it

Victory Position
Mar 15, 2004

Don't call me a hero.









PaletteSwappedNinja posted:

TvC's giants were lame as hell but only one of them was good and he wasn't fun and neither was TvC.

the only two actual cabs left at GameWorks Schaumburg are the ancient MVC2 cab (a living relic) and the dueling TvC cabs, but they're side-by-side

no, the SFIV dueling cabs don't count

In Training
Jun 28, 2008



I don't think any game has ever put frame data in their game except like, some poverty stuff I haven't played, or I think Injustice 2 has it.

fadam
Apr 23, 2008



I think SFV has it now.

Romes128
Dec 28, 2008




Fun Shoe

Graphic posted:

Tekken should have a tutorial but eh, you can get all the basic concepts in an hour on YouTube. Not having frame-date in training mode is inexcusable though. That adventure of "discovery" for frame data falls on a handful of ultra nerds who then disseminate it to everyone else, so in the end all it does is make you really want two monitors, alt tabbing, or printing poo poo out like a cave man. Just put it in the game.



there is tekkenbot which shows frame data in training mode. they update it pretty quickly whenever the game gets a patch.

but yeah it should really be part of the game.

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anime was right
Jun 27, 2008

death is certain
keep yr cool


i feel like you could make AI opponents more interesting if they reacted 15ish frames prior to your current state with like 5 frames subtracted/added (randomly, and erring towards 10ish frames the better the AI is) and then start scripting from there

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