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Big rear end On Fire posted:Seeing the actress as nurse Ratchet way before DS9 might have something to do with it but Kai Winn got under my skin more than Dukat. She's the goat of fake smiles. Louise Fletcher was an amazing actor with an almost supernatural ability to make viewers despise her onscreen. (In real life, she couldn't be more different -- the people she worked with had a tendency to gush about how friendly and considerate she always was.)
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Jul 11, 2024 14:19
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Kai Winn was a handful
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Jul 11, 2024 14:27
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* Breathes in * "My child"
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Jul 11, 2024 14:28
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Powered Descent posted:Louise Fletcher was an amazing actor with an almost supernatural ability to make viewers despise her onscreen. (In real life, she couldn't be more different -- the people she worked with had a tendency to gush about how friendly and considerate she always was.) Makes sense—if she’s naturally good at understanding people and making them feel at ease, then her development as an actor must have included figuring out how to tweak that in different directions to infuriate people as well.
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Jul 11, 2024 14:53
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Powered Descent posted:Louise Fletcher was an amazing actor with an almost supernatural ability to make viewers despise her onscreen. (In real life, she couldn't be more different -- the people she worked with had a tendency to gush about how friendly and considerate she always was.) She's really amazing. In 7x18, 'Til Death do us Part, despite the fact that Kai Winn has proven herself to be a despicable character, Fletcher makes her eminently pitiable as she is manipulated by the Pagh Wraiths and Dukat. And then, in 7x19, the whiplash: she learns that her visions came from the Pagh Wraiths, she runs to Kira for advice, and there's this scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJQqCQjfO2U "Step down? I don't understand. Why would I do that?" It's so sincere, in just a few seconds you go back to feeling nothing but contempt for her. (Although the scene shows a great manipulative side to Kira as well, look at that poo poo-eating grin as she tells Winn that stepping down is the right thing to do.)
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Jul 11, 2024 15:59
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Admiralty Flag posted:* Breathes in * ugh this
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Jul 11, 2024 16:05
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Kai Winn is the only fictional character I have ever hated. Not Gul Dukat, not Chuck McGill, not even Peggy Hill. I might dislike a character, but never hated them. Except for Kai Winn. Louise Fletcher was just. So. Good. at being a piece of poo poo. She was amazing.
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Jul 11, 2024 16:29
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Fletcher makes her eminently pitiable Even Fletcher couldn't make me pity Kai Winn. Also I don't see how "Honest and actually good useful advice" is particularly manipulative.
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Jul 11, 2024 19:17
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CainFortea posted:Even Fletcher couldn't make me pity Kai Winn. Because she's playing Kai Winn's game and using her own logic against her.
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Jul 11, 2024 20:04
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Because she's playing Kai Winn's game and using her own logic against her. Winn had, at that point, been proven to be a terrible Kai like dozens of times. This isn't using her own logic against her, this is a rational response. Edit: She was only even in that position because she was so powerfully jealous that the prophets would only talk to some human and not her.
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Jul 11, 2024 20:25
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My child. bombs a school
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Jul 11, 2024 20:27
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CainFortea posted:Winn had, at that point, been proven to be a terrible Kai like dozens of times. This isn't using her own logic against her, this is a rational response. She also prevented a possible golden age for Bajor because she wouldn't be needed as Kai anymore.
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Jul 11, 2024 21:06
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Thwarting the colonial ambitions of the wormhole aliens is a good plan, and shows she isn't just a mindless mouthpiece for the alien overlords.
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Jul 11, 2024 21:26
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Tunicate posted:Thwarting the colonial ambitions of the wormhole aliens is a good plan, and shows she isn't just a mindless mouthpiece for the alien overlords. To bad she accomplished that by throwing in her lot with the nazi slaver faction of the same aliens.
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Jul 11, 2024 21:38
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I don't think "colonial ambitions of wormhole aliens" is an actual thing though.
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Jul 11, 2024 21:39
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Mylan posted:To bad she accomplished that by throwing in her lot with the nazi slaver faction of the same aliens. All we know is that the pah wraiths were imprisoned without trial and are a different color than the other ones. Sounds like the mainline wormhole aliens are just racist. CainFortea posted:I don't think "colonial ambitions of wormhole aliens" is an actual thing though. They interfere with the politics of their client state, including the selection of high leadership, and were willing to puppeteer and rape Sisko's mom to increase the social and political control their dynasty had over Bajor.
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Jul 11, 2024 21:52
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Tunicate posted:They interfere with the politics of their client state, including the selection of high leadership, and were willing to puppeteer and rape Sisko's mom to increase the social and political control their dynasty had over Bajor. They don't even comprehend linear time. Bajor's religion is based on whatever weird intersections the aliens have with regular spacetime. It's not like they're deciding that Bajor should do X or Y things. And i'd say given the fact that they don't communicate with the high leadership, they're not really interfering with that now are they? Edit: oh wait you're doing the smg bit. CainFortea fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Jul 11, 2024 |
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Jul 11, 2024 22:05
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CainFortea posted:They don't even comprehend linear time. quote:Bajor's religion is based on whatever weird intersections the aliens have with regular spacetime. It's not like they're deciding that Bajor should do X or Y things. And i'd say given the fact that they don't communicate with the high leadership, they're not really interfering with that now are they? The wormhole aliens interfere, repeatedly, and often state their motives for doing so. Like when they brainwashed the leader of the ferengi to make him more palatable.
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Jul 11, 2024 22:23
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Thinking that the wormhole aliens must have clearly understood linear time because Ben explained it to them that one time seems precisely like the sort of wrong understanding that a thing like us would make about a thing like them Also I realize you can defend the usage but I think saying that they raped someone is a pretty edgy accusation and kind of diminishes the actual value of that term to describe human actions Those fuckera are alien
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Jul 11, 2024 22:35
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Rubber Chicken posted:Thinking that the wormhole aliens must have clearly understood linear time because Ben explained it to them that one time seems precisely like the sort of wrong understanding that a thing like us would make about a thing like them They are perfectly capable of understanding cause and effect, the evidence is all the times they cause things to bring about a desired effect, and say that they are doing it intentionally. Their motives and actions are very much explainable. They are explained onscreen on multiple occasions.
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Jul 11, 2024 22:39
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Tunicate posted:They are perfectly capable of understanding cause and effect, the evidence is all the times they cause things to bring about a desired effect, and say that they are doing it intentionally. Yeah I don’t know if this holds up to scrutiny but I like the idea that they perfectly understand linear time, they were just using faux-ignorance of it as a therapy exercise for Sisko to see that his wife was in the past, he is stuck there emotionally, and his anguish stems from that etc etc
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Jul 11, 2024 22:50
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just space kai winn and send the bajorans a "we're sorry that happened" gift basket
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Jul 11, 2024 23:21
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lol at Kai Opaka having to live on murder mutant planet for eternity
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Jul 11, 2024 23:40
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Endless Trash posted:Yeah I don’t know if this holds up to scrutiny but I like the idea that they perfectly understand linear time, they were just using faux-ignorance of it as a therapy exercise for Sisko to see that his wife was in the past, he is stuck there emotionally, and his anguish stems from that etc etc It doesn't really. That's kinda the whole deal with the wormhole aliens. They do whatever weird non-linear time thing they're doing, and the Bajorans take those actions and put their own concept of what is going on over it.
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Jul 11, 2024 23:40
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The prophets do seem to have an attachment to Bajor. More than just "that's where we store our criminals".
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Jul 11, 2024 23:46
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Facebook Aunt posted:The prophets do seem to have an attachment to Bajor. More than just "that's where we store our criminals". yea, they're neighbors
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Jul 11, 2024 23:47
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CainFortea posted:yea, they're neighbors They are “of Bajor” - possibly an earlier species that evolved there or maybe they became fond of the planet for some reason. I don’t think they’re as weirdly alien as they present themselves but yes obviously the Bajorans are overly mystical and woowoo about them
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Jul 11, 2024 23:49
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Tunicate posted:All we know is that the pah wraiths were imprisoned without trial and are a different color than the other ones. Sounds like the mainline wormhole aliens are just racist. I mean during the show I thought this and then was directly proven wrong. A Pah-Wraith directly murders Jadzia, and after they resurrect Dukat their plan is to burn the entire universe, soooOOOoooo
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Jul 11, 2024 23:50
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Endless Trash posted:They are “of Bajor” - possibly an earlier species that evolved there or maybe they became fond of the planet for some reason. I don’t think they’re as weirdly alien as they present themselves Pretty sure they just say that as Bajors like where they're PO box is if they need to put an address on a form or have something sent. Most places don't deliver to "random unknown wormhole" you see. You know, like if someone says they're "from" a town, but they actually live like half an hour out of it. It's just a convince thing. Edit: Do the Bajorans forward thier mail?
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Jul 12, 2024 00:16
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Aren't the Prophets just ascended Bajorans from the future whose ascended society reached across all time, always existing at all points in the past, present, and future? Thought that was kinda obvious.
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Jul 12, 2024 00:36
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mycomancy posted:Aren't the Prophets just ascended Bajorans from the future whose ascended society reached across all time, always existing at all points in the past, present, and future? Thought that was kinda obvious. Actually they’re gods
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Jul 12, 2024 00:37
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alexandriao posted:I mean during the show I thought this and then was directly proven wrong. A Pah-Wraith directly murders Jadzia, Jadzia had her hand in her gun and was drawing it when Dukat hit her with the energy beams. Afterwards, Dukat checks the vitals of the unconscious Jadazia, sees she's still living, and claims he didn't mean to harm her before beaming out. SInce Jadazia didn't immediately die, and the Dax symbiote survived (despite being the direct target of the energy beam), it seems likely that he was telling the truth and it was a botched attempt at a nonlethal takedown. If he had wanted Jadazia dead he had ample opportunity to finish the job before leaving.
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Jul 12, 2024 00:40
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Tunicate posted:Jadzia had her hand in her gun and was drawing it when Dukat hit her with the energy beams. Afterwards, Dukat checks the vitals of the unconscious Jadazia, sees she's still living, and claims he didn't mean to harm her before beaming out. Ok, now rationalize the one that possessed Keiko.
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Jul 12, 2024 00:49
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dr_rat posted:Pretty sure they just say that as Bajors like where they're PO box is if they need to put an address on a form or have something sent. Most places don't deliver to "random unknown wormhole" you see. Bajor is like an amazon delivery locker that you start using when the pahwraiths steal off your porch one too many times
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Jul 12, 2024 00:49
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mycomancy posted:Aren't the Prophets just ascended Bajorans from the future whose ascended society reached across all time, always existing at all points in the past, present, and future? Thought that was kinda obvious. 
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Jul 12, 2024 00:54
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Mylan posted:Ok, now rationalize the one that possessed Keiko. Keiko just did that on her own. But more seriously all that pah wraith did was attempt to attack the police and arrange a jailbreak for the other members of her race. Given the desperation involved in their struggle, and with the freedom of their whole race on the line, the Pah Wraiths tqke a surprising amount of care to try to avoid killing any humans or bajorans etc, even ones who are subordinates of the wormhole aliens who imprisoned them. I mean, the Pah Wraith could have just left Keiko, possessed OBrien, shot Keiko with Obrien's phaser to kill any witnesses, and done the modifications directly. Tunicate fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Jul 12, 2024 |
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Jul 12, 2024 00:57
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Mylan posted:Ok, now rationalize the one that possessed Keiko. Maybe possessing Keiko turned that one evil.
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Jul 12, 2024 00:58
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Mylan posted:Ok, now rationalize the one that possessed Keiko. It was tired of seeing Miles being so sad all the time and just wanted to help
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Jul 12, 2024 02:09
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i don't remember the pah wraiths having the same hangups about linear time that the prophets did
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Jul 12, 2024 02:15
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:i don't remember the pah wraiths having the same hangups about linear time that the prophets did Tue pah wraiths we never admit they don't understand something
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Jul 12, 2024 02:20
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