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Binary Badger
Oct 11, 2005

Trolling Link for a decade




Phison is a Taiwanese manufacturer who is probably not even remotely interested in providing any support to anyone other than direct hardware vendors.

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Geemer
Nov 4, 2010




I bought a Corsair Force MP510 960GB to put in the rest of the parts I also bought today.

What's this that I'm reading about NVMe drives needing you to turn off write cache flushing to get to full speed? Is it a return of the old really bad advice from when SATA SSDs were just starting to become usable or is there actually any merit to it?

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Geemer posted:

I bought a Corsair Force MP510 960GB to put in the rest of the parts I also bought today.

What's this that I'm reading about NVMe drives needing you to turn off write cache flushing to get to full speed? Is it a return of the old really bad advice from when SATA SSDs were just starting to become usable or is there actually any merit to it?

If you're running Win10, you need to do nothing and it'll take care of stuff itself.

Lambert
Apr 14, 2018
If you can read this, I'm posting in bad faith.


Fallen Rib

The only thing that's potentially advisable is installing the NVMe driver, but Corsair simply uses the generic one that comes with Windows. So no need to do anything.

Geemer
Nov 4, 2010




Cool, thanks. I figured as much, but asking in here seemed like a safe bet.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Geemer posted:

What's this that I'm reading about NVMe drives needing you to turn off write cache flushing to get to full speed? Is it a return of the old really bad advice from when SATA SSDs were just starting to become usable or is there actually any merit to it?

This is bad advice by the crowd who care about higher numbers on benchmarks. It does improve performance, but it can also corrupt your drive.

Write caching is good (it's why drives with no dram are worse). Cache flushing is a command that the OS sends to make sure a write happens ASAP; not every write operation gets an immediate cache flush*. Turning off cache flushing is dangerous on most devices, but some server grade SSDs have enough capacitors to finish writing their whole buffer in the event of power loss. On those drives turning off flushing is a safe way to boost speed.


*This is why in the past when people have pointed at some piece of software and said "look at the continuous writes it's doing, that will wear out SSDs" it's generally been a bunch of hooey. Most of those writes are not even leaving the OS buffers in main memory.

Rooted Vegetable
Jun 1, 2002



Folks, did I gently caress up? I ordered two Silicon Power A58s, one 512gb and one 256gb. The 512gb might become my unraid cache (primarily used to hold downloads during their first day before being moved to the array of spinning disks, and my dockered app's data, also some VM vhd usage), the 256gb will be used to recondition a laptop into a CloudReady Chromebook.

However, any and every drive has horror stories out there. Reading this thread though, I've seen they might contain generally disliked controllers?

Let me know quick as I can cancel the orders and hunt more.

redeyes
Sep 14, 2002
I LOVE THE WHITE STRIPES!

There is zero chance I would use either of those SSDs for a cache drive assuming that cache is important. I'd try and get a Samsung I think.

Rooted Vegetable
Jun 1, 2002



redeyes posted:

There is zero chance I would use either of those SSDs for a cache drive assuming that cache is important. I'd try and get a Samsung I think.

It's not outright vital stuff but I'd rather it didn't fail at a bad moment (convienence, not data loss reason).

I've switched that for the AData SU800 512gb.

EDIT: But could change back.

teagone
Jun 10, 2003

That was pretty intense, huh?

The 1TB Samsung QVO on Amazon right now for $$87.99 would be ok for just a storage drive, right?

BeastOfExmoor
Aug 19, 2003

I will be gone, but not forever.


teagone posted:

The 1TB Samsung QVO on Amazon right now for $$87.99 would be ok for just a storage drive, right?

It would be okay, but it's QLC SATA which will be slower than the Intel QLC NVMe 660P (if you have an NVMe slot free) or a TLC SATA drive (MX500, WD Blue, etc.). Both those other options can be found around the same price pretty frequently, although I'm not seeing something at this exact moment.

teagone
Jun 10, 2003

That was pretty intense, huh?

BeastOfExmoor posted:

It would be okay, but it's QLC SATA which will be slower than the Intel QLC NVMe 660P (if you have an NVMe slot free) or a TLC SATA drive (MX500, WD Blue, etc.). Both those other options can be found around the same price pretty frequently, although I'm not seeing something at this exact moment.

I'm looking to replace the 1TB spinner drive in my older gaming PC whose mainboard doesn't have any M.2 slots the SSD I'm looking to add would 100% only be used for game installs; already have an SSD OS drive.

Some Goon
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



teagone posted:

I'm looking to replace the 1TB spinner drive in my older gaming PC whose mainboard doesn't have any M.2 slots — the SSD I'm looking to add would 100% only be used for game installs; already have an SSD OS drive.

NVMe vs SATA is mostly academic for home use. Just go for it.

Geemer
Nov 4, 2010




Binary Badger posted:

Current Phison E12 drives are shipping with ECFM 22.4, a jump from 12.3.

Phison seems to be playing their cards close to their chest because literally no updaters for generic 22.x drives seem to be out in the wild, unlike with 12.x.

Mine (Crucial Force MP510) shipped with 22.5, for what it's worth.

ilkhan
Oct 7, 2004

IF I JUST LICK ENOUGH BOOT LEATHER, BIG DADDY TRUMP WILL SURELY LOVE ME

teagone posted:

I'm looking to replace the 1TB spinner drive in my older gaming PC whose mainboard doesn't have any M.2 slots — the SSD I'm looking to add would 100% only be used for game installs; already have an SSD OS drive.
If you have pci-e slots the adapter is about $15 on Amazon. Just to stay on current tech.

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

The new Inland Premium drives have a new sticker/heat spreader, so again, I'm wondering if 22.x means it's a new-build drive and incompatible with 12.x drives.

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


teagone posted:

I'm looking to replace the 1TB spinner drive in my older gaming PC whose mainboard doesn't have any M.2 slots the SSD I'm looking to add would 100% only be used for game installs; already have an SSD OS drive.

For game installs an 860 QVO is fine. Pretty much the only gaming situation where SATA vs NVMe makes a significant difference is when a game unpacks a huge file during initial loading, which is pretty much just Doom 2016, and only for that initial load. The biggest disadvantage of QLC is it's reduced write endurance, but Samsung seems to have decently overprovisioned because they warrant it for a decent load (360 TBW / 3-years) and running games isn't a very write-heavy application. An extra $10 for an Adata su800 would get you an extra 2 years of warranty, but the QVO should be just fine for what you want to use it for.

VostokProgram
Feb 20, 2014



DrDork posted:

Indeed, it's very much language dependant. If it's coded in C/C++, overflowing a signed int gets you straight into undefined behavior, which is...not great for firmware.

Which makes me wonder what the language of choice for firmware even is these days.

Still C and C++. Some hard drives are running an entire RTOS in their firmware

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001



Where is my Python based SSD firmware

Harik
Sep 9, 2001

From the hard streets of Moscow
First dog to touch the stars




Plaster Town Cop

VostokProgram posted:

Still C and C++. Some hard drives are running an entire RTOS in their firmware

There's some very slow movement towards embedded rust because of all these stupid fuckups that keep happening over and over and over, but I don't expect to see anything more than trivial adoption for a decade.

Protip: If you have any sort of counter start it 1 minute from overflow. Trust me on this, it's the only way to be sure everyone handles it correctly.


What's the current non-garbage controller lineup, phison E12, intel, samsung, micron?
E: nVME controllers I mean

Harik fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Dec 2, 2019

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

Harik posted:

What's the current non-garbage controller lineup, phison E12, intel, samsung, micron?

IDT PMC-Sierra Microsemi Microchip

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


Silicon Motion's sm2262 and sm2262en are pretty good, too (HP ex920/ex950, Adata sx8200/Gammix 11/sx8200 Pro, Mushkin Pilot/Pilot-E).

Stickman fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Dec 2, 2019

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

Nobody Cares




The E12 seems at first blush to Perform As Advertised™

Seamonster
Apr 30, 2007

IMMER SIEGREICH


got some SATAs here if anyone is interested. I will post SA-MART later tonight to keep things kosher. Both legendary drives, for different reasons of course.

1TB Samsung 850 PRO
2TB Micron 1100

EDIT: https://forums.somethingawful.com/s...hreadid=3905482

Only registered members can see post attachments!

Seamonster fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Dec 3, 2019

Sprite141
Feb 6, 2009

I should really just
learn to stop talking.


Ugh, not enough time in the evening yo look into which nvme my motherboard can use. Oh well, I can always pick up a 2tb samsung 860 evo. It's on sale a decent amount over at Amazon anyway.

And if I'm screwing myself by not getting an nvme, I can always return it before opening it up. I'm legit that tired right now. Not enough time before I pass out. Best case I got a new 2tb ssd, worst case I send it back. Granted my current 2tb hdd is failing, so sending it back seems like a bad decision.

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


Unless you have professional applications that work with very large files, the real-world difference between NVMe and a SATA drive is pretty tiny. And if you decide to upgrade to an NVMe later SATA M.2 -> 2.5" enclosures are cheap, as are SATA M.2 -> USB 3.0 enclosures!

WattsvilleBlues
Jan 25, 2005

Every demon wants his pound of flesh

Sabrent 1TB Rocket NVMe - good drive for £110?

Some Goon
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



WattsvilleBlues posted:

Sabrent 1TB Rocket NVMe - good drive for £110?

Not up on UK prices but assuming it's usually $ to £ on a 1 to 1 basis yes. It's a good drive. There are other equally good drives that are sometimes cheaper than the rocket but I can never remember which ones they are. Look at Stickman's posts in the part picking thread since he's the one who stays on top of all that. Wouldn't expect a hugely notable price difference though.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Oh. my. god.

Adata's new SU750 (and amazon-exclusive 760) are powered by a Realtek controller chip. Realtek


The SU800 and Adata's various NVMe drives have a general thumbs-up from this thread, but a realtek-powered SSD is something I would rate as the strongest possible stay away. Like it's got really bad performance anyways, but even as a cheap media-storage HD replacement drive I don't trust realtek not to gently caress things up. Especially on their first try.

Lambert
Apr 14, 2018
If you can read this, I'm posting in bad faith.


Fallen Rib

Realtek's lovely audio drivers that cause problems with regularity are punishment enough, they should stop it.

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


Klyith posted:

Oh. my. god.

Adata's new SU750 (and amazon-exclusive 760) are powered by a Realtek controller chip. Realtek


The SU800 and Adata's various NVMe drives have a general thumbs-up from this thread, but a realtek-powered SSD is something I would rate as the strongest possible stay away. Like it's got really bad performance anyways, but even as a cheap media-storage HD replacement drive I don't trust realtek not to gently caress things up. Especially on their first try.

They're also dram-less. While that's less important than it used to be, it'll need save a lot more than $5 to be worth it over the su800.

teagone
Jun 10, 2003

That was pretty intense, huh?

If the 1TB SU750 were like $50, I'd get it.

Xenomorph
Jun 13, 2001


OK, so I can definitely notice the shortcomings with the new Samsung 860 QVO drives. No benchmark app or stress test required.

I've been setting up a 1TB QVO for someone, and when copying data I'm seeing speeds drop to as low as 40 MB/sec when reading & writing for sustained periods. This is less than half the speed I'd usually get when copying from magnetic hard drives.

Going by AnandTech's site (which noticed that "performance drops significantly"), apparently the 1TB QVO drive is rated at just 80 MB/sec when its cache is full (the 2TB/4TB QVO drives are rated at 160MB/sec, the old 250/500GB EVO drives were rated at 300 MB/sec, and the 1/2/4TB EVO drives were rated at 500MB/sec.)

With regular Desktop usage, I guess the drive seems fine, as IOPS / small file performance is great (when everything fits in cache). It's just after using SSDs all these years, I didn't expect to see such a speed regression like this.

Lambert
Apr 14, 2018
If you can read this, I'm posting in bad faith.


Fallen Rib

QLC NAND is extremely slow, which you'll definitely notice whenever the cache is full. It's why really cheap 2 TB drives like the Intel 660p (70 GB cache) are only recommended as secondary game drives, not primary drives. QLC also has pretty bad endurance compared to TLC drives.

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


Xenomorph posted:

OK, so I can definitely notice the shortcomings with the new Samsung 860 QVO drives. No benchmark app or stress test required.

I've been setting up a 1TB QVO for someone, and when copying data I'm seeing speeds drop to as low as 40 MB/sec when reading & writing for sustained periods. This is less than half the speed I'd usually get when copying from magnetic hard drives.

Going by AnandTech's site (which noticed that "performance drops significantly"), apparently the 1TB QVO drive is rated at just 80 MB/sec when its cache is full (the 2TB/4TB QVO drives are rated at 160MB/sec, the old 250/500GB EVO drives were rated at 300 MB/sec, and the 1/2/4TB EVO drives were rated at 500MB/sec.)

With regular Desktop usage, I guess the drive seems fine, as IOPS / small file performance is great (when everything fits in cache). It's just after using SSDs all these years, I didn't expect to see such a speed regression like this.

This is true for all QLC drives - once the dynamic SLC cache is saturated they slow to hdd write speeds. The SLC cache is generally large enough that most people won't notice it outside of very large copy jobs, though - for the 860 QVO it starts at 42GB and bottoms out at 6GB (probably when the drive is >75% full, but I haven't found confirmation). Nearly every other usage scenario should be up with normal SATA speeds (or SATA+ in the case of the NVMe QLC drives).

Stickman fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Dec 6, 2019

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006

Just wear the fucking mask, Bob


Xenomorph posted:

OK, so I can definitely notice the shortcomings with the new Samsung 860 QVO drives. No benchmark app or stress test required.

I've been setting up a 1TB QVO for someone, and when copying data I'm seeing speeds drop to as low as 40 MB/sec when reading & writing for sustained periods. This is less than half the speed I'd usually get when copying from magnetic hard drives.

Going by AnandTech's site (which noticed that "performance drops significantly"), apparently the 1TB QVO drive is rated at just 80 MB/sec when its cache is full (the 2TB/4TB QVO drives are rated at 160MB/sec, the old 250/500GB EVO drives were rated at 300 MB/sec, and the 1/2/4TB EVO drives were rated at 500MB/sec.)

With regular Desktop usage, I guess the drive seems fine, as IOPS / small file performance is great (when everything fits in cache). It's just after using SSDs all these years, I didn't expect to see such a speed regression like this.
When I was at Best Buy picking up my 860 EVO, there was a dude and his son in there picking up parts to build a PC. We were waiting for an employee to open up the display case so we could get our drives, and he he grabbed the QVO...I told him he'd regret that one and he got an EVO like me

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Stickman posted:

This is true for all QLC drives - once the dynamic SLC cache is saturated they slow to hdd write speeds. The SLC cache is generally large enough that most people won't notice it outside of very large copy jobs, though - for the 860 QVO it starts at 42GB and bottoms out at 6GB (probably when the drive is >75% full, but I haven't found confirmation). Nearly every other usage scenario should be up with normal SATA speeds (or SATA+ in the case of the NVMe QLC drives).

Sustained writes to fill up most of a drive with an image clone or something like that during system setup is probably the worst case for a home desktop user with a QLC drive. Like, I'd guess when it drops to 40mb/s it's not only filled the SLC cache but also written enough data that the drive needs to downsize the SLC zone, so it has to evict bits from SLC to QLC. Or maybe just had a moment when the drive thought it had time to start re-writing cached data. So it's splitting that 80mb/s QLC write speed between your new copy and the drive's own internal copies.

But yeah most any other time you'd stay inside the cache, or be downloading a game where the internet is the bottleneck.


Anyways,

Xenomorph posted:

It's just after using SSDs all these years, I didn't expect to see such a speed regression like this.
yup there's a reason the QVO never gets any recommendations around here. The 660p 2TB does, but that's because a) at 2TB the SLC cache is pretty huge and b) they actually discount it somewhat proportional to the QLC:TLC ratio. QVOs are stupidly overpriced and never worth it.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Bob Morales posted:

When I was at Best Buy picking up my 860 EVO, there was a dude and his son in there picking up parts to build a PC. We were waiting for an employee to open up the display case so we could get our drives, and he he grabbed the QVO...I told him he'd regret that one and he got an EVO like me

Sadly you both missed the galaxy brain option: a WD Blue or corsair MX500.

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006

Just wear the fucking mask, Bob


Klyith posted:

Sadly you both missed the galaxy brain option: a WD Blue or corsair MX500.

The blue was the same price

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Seamonster
Apr 30, 2007

IMMER SIEGREICH


Klyith posted:

yup there's a reason the QVO never gets any recommendations around here. The 660p 2TB does, but that's because a) at 2TB the SLC cache is pretty huge and b) they actually discount it somewhat proportional to the QLC:TLC ratio. QVOs are stupidly overpriced and never worth it.

Between a 2TB sabrent and a 2TB 660p I am happy to report that all SATA cables have been permanently evicted from my case. It is a strange sight seeing no hard drive cages and nothing in the 2.5'' caddies. TBF the SATA cables themselves weren't so bad - it was the drat power power connectors and trying to angle them into place.

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