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Some Goon
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



Not unless there's something really weird going on. I haven't worked with a WD Black personally but I can't fathom why they would be any different.

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Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new wallpaper tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

The plot thickens!

Bios can definitely see the drive and shows it as a viable boot option but it isn't appearing in windows: https://imgur.com/a/d2owz2d

e: ahahaha okay it's all done. WD just hide the fact that their internal drives come unformatted or partitioned and you need to do that in Windows. Because they have space to write 'we recommend a professional installation' but not 'btw you need to format this thing and windows won't prompt you'.

e2: thank you everyone for your guidance.

Alchenar fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Mar 5, 2020

Some Goon
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



Alchenar posted:

The plot thickens!

Bios can definitely see the drive and shows it as a viable boot option but it isn't appearing in windows: https://imgur.com/a/d2owz2d

Open up Disk Management and see if it shows up there, it probably just needs formatted / initialized.

Dogen
May 5, 2002

Bury my body down by the highwayside, so that my old evil spirit can get a Greyhound bus and ride


Ah, we’ve all been there.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Alchenar posted:

e: ahahaha okay it's all done. WD just hide the fact that their internal drives come unformatted or partitioned and you need to do that in Windows.

this is true of pretty much all internal drives, for future reference

makere
Jan 13, 2012


I totally understand the confusion and self-doubt as my first M.2 drive was DOA. Most frustrating thing ever to debug.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new wallpaper tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

Klyith posted:

this is true of pretty much all internal drives, for future reference

Oh yeah, but I build once every 4-5 years so this is a lesson I'm pretty sure I learn and then forget every time. It's just irritating that in 2020 Windows will still happily detect a new drive but not prompt the user in any way to do what's necessary to activate it.

e: and also the general experience of stepping away from building for 5 years and then coming back. You find that some things have taken giant leaps forwards, and then other things will just not work until you push a button somewhere hidden deep in windows.

Alchenar fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Mar 5, 2020

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Alchenar posted:

Oh yeah, but I build once every 4-5 years so this is a lesson I'm pretty sure I learn and then forget every time. It's just irritating that in 2020 Windows will still happily detect a new drive but not prompt the user in any way to do what's necessary to activate it.

e: and also the general experience of stepping away from building for 5 years and then coming back. You find that some things have taken giant leaps forwards, and then other things will just not work until you push a button somewhere hidden deep in windows.

It is extremely dumb that when you put in an uninitialized USB stick windows asks if you want to format it, but a new blank drive connected by sata or nvme is met by complete silence.

refleks
Nov 21, 2006




Any benefit from having both M.2 drives in a PC be of the same manufacturer? I have a 520GB 960 EVO already as boot drive, and I want to buy another 2TB M.2 for picture editing and was just gonna buy a WD Blue

Some Goon
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



refleks posted:

Any benefit from having both M.2 drives in a PC be of the same manufacturer? I have a 520GB 960 EVO already as boot drive, and I want to buy another 2TB M.2 for picture editing and was just gonna buy a WD Blue

Nope, go for it.

refleks
Nov 21, 2006




Any reason to get M.2 vs. 2.5 SSD. Prices are the same here

repiv
Aug 13, 2009



College Slice

refleks posted:

Any reason to get M.2 vs. 2.5 SSD. Prices are the same here

Depends on the type of M.2 drive - SATA M.2 drives are functionally equivalent to 2.5" SATA drives, just in a different form factor, but NVME M.2 drives can be significantly faster.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

M.2 has no wires and keeps everything cleaner inside your case, so that alone is a reason to go for it if prices are the same. There are no downsides to M.2 vs SATA, honestly, other than motherboards only supporting one or two M.2 slots these days.

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


repiv posted:

Depends on the type of M.2 drive - SATA M.2 drives are functionally equivalent to 2.5" SATA drives, just in a different form factor, but NVME M.2 drives can be significantly faster.

I’d also add that “can be significant faster” means faster for very specific workloads. While saturated sequential i/o is potentially several times faster, in most real workloads the performance gain is nothing or just a few percent. Games loading doesn’t really get a noticeable boost.

It’s worth checking your typical tasks to see if any of them benefit from NVMe - if not, then it’s really not worth paying a premium over SATA.

repiv
Aug 13, 2009



College Slice

Stickman posted:

I’d also add that “can be significant faster” means faster for very specific workloads. While saturated sequential i/o is potentially several times faster, in most real workloads the performance gain is nothing or just a few percent. Games loading doesn’t really get a noticeable boost.

It’s worth checking your typical tasks to see if any of them benefit from NVMe - if not, then it’s really not worth paying a premium over SATA.

That's true of today, but ~500MB/sec SATA drives are probably going to show their age in a few years with the new consoles pushing games to design around >2.4GB/sec storage.

YMMV depending on whether you're putting games on the drive and how long you intend to use it though. SATA is absolutely fine for less intensive bulk data storage.

orcane
Jun 13, 2012



Fun Shoe

Nothing stops people from upgrading to something like 4 TB NVMe SSDs in a few years if they become a necessity.

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


repiv posted:

That's true of today, but ~500MB/sec SATA drives are probably going to show their age in a few years with the new consoles pushing games to design around >2.4GB/sec storage.

YMMV depending on whether you're putting games on the drive and how long you intend to use it though. SATA is absolutely fine for less intensive bulk data storage.

Today’s NVMe drives will still have all the same performance restrictions that that keep that extra performance from being utilized by games, though. Or do you think that games specifically designed around the new consoles will also be able to take advantage of existing PC NVMes?

E: And those look like soldered PCIe 4.0 NVMe drives, which are currently ridiculously expensive in PC space.

Stickman fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Mar 18, 2020

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Stickman posted:

Today’s NVMe drives will still have all the same performance restrictions that that keep that extra performance from being utilized by games, though. Or do you think that games specifically designed around the new consoles will also be able to take advantage of existing PC NVMes?

No, that's not what's happening at all. Today's NVMe drives don't have any performance restrictions as far as games are concerned. The thing that stops them from improving over SATA drives with games is that for tasks where the storage system has measurable impact (level/world loads mostly), speed is being capped by processing the data rather than reading it. The CPU is too slow for the NVMe drive. If next-gen games get re-engineered based on NVMe performance and can actually use it, that will almost certainly be the same on PC.

OTOH whether consoles that have NVMe speed will actually use all that bandwidth and make SATA SSDs obsolete for games is an open question and I rather doubt it'll happen any time soon. There are reasons besides storage limitations for why Spiderman doesn't fly through the city at 100 miles per hour.



also re: m.2 drives not having wires, this makes no difference to anything in your PC but assembly and aesthetic. wires inside your case do not change temperature or performance.

Klyith fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Mar 18, 2020

Some Goon
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



Yes, but having 2 fewer cables, especially when one is a bigass PSU cable, is super nifty when building, and I barely even attempt cable management.

KingKapalone
Dec 20, 2005
1/16 Native American + 1/2 Hungarian = Totally Badass

Think I might want a new drive for my birthday since I'm running low on space after much cleanup.

Should I look at 1TB NVMe? Are there a few I should consider and at what prices? r/buildapcsales doesn't look to have any super deals right now.

GRINDCORE MEGGIDO
Feb 28, 1985


The thought of running SATA drives in a super tiny ITX case is making my eyes bulge. Gross.

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


Klyith posted:

No, that's not what's happening at all. Today's NVMe drives don't have any performance restrictions as far as games are concerned. The thing that stops them from improving over SATA drives with games is that for tasks where the storage system has measurable impact (level/world loads mostly), speed is being capped by processing the data rather than reading it. The CPU is too slow for the NVMe drive. If next-gen games get re-engineered based on NVMe performance and can actually use it, that will almost certainly be the same on PC.

OTOH whether consoles that have NVMe speed will actually use all that bandwidth and make SATA SSDs obsolete for games is an open question and I rather doubt it'll happen any time soon. There are reasons besides storage limitations for why Spiderman doesn't fly through the city at 100 miles per hour.

That makes sense - the domains where NVMe speed approach SATA are 4k random read and mixed i/o, which I suppose aren't very common in games.

refleks
Nov 21, 2006




Sorry, should have been more specific. I was just talking about WD Blue M.2 vs. 2.5". They're both SATA so no difference.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

Klyith posted:

also re: m.2 drives not having wires, this makes no difference to anything in your PC but assembly and aesthetic. wires inside your case do not change temperature or performance.

Would cut down on the number of times someone comes in the thread for support and walks away with a 'bad SATA cable' resolution though!

Some Goon
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



refleks posted:

Sorry, should have been more specific. I was just talking about WD Blue M.2 vs. 2.5". They're both SATA so no difference.

M.2 means you have two less cables to deal with, but you have to gently caress with the tiny-rear end M.2 screw, and you have 1 less free M.2 slot if you ever think you're going to fill them all up and they all support NVMe, some motherboards don't in every slot.

That's the long and the short of the differences. They're the same drive (probably) with different physical connectors.

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


Also SATA M.2 -> 2.5” SATA enclosures are only $10 if you choose M.2 and want the slot for something else later.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Don't look at me-
I'm ugly in the morning
When the headaches gone
The sun is not.
Forgot to turn the alarm
On - on




Pillbug

Stickman posted:

Also SATA M.2 -> 2.5” SATA enclosures are only $10 if you choose M.2 and want the slot for something else later.

I’ve gotten really good speeds off of the external enclosures I have for NVMe drives. They make for great externals, they’re teeny so they take up no space in a laptop bag.

refleks
Nov 21, 2006




ItBreathes posted:

M.2 means you have two less cables to deal with, but you have to gently caress with the tiny-rear end M.2 screw, and you have 1 less free M.2 slot if you ever think you're going to fill them all up and they all support NVMe, some motherboards don't in every slot.

That's the long and the short of the differences. They're the same drive (probably) with different physical connectors.

Yeah I know. I just can't remember where I put the last M.2 screw for my motherboard - kinda the only reason I'm not just going for that for ease of install. I don't care about the cables, already have 2 spinners attached to the computer...

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

I haate those m.2 screws so much for SATA I would just go with the 2.5” version. You can just slap some double sided or velcro tape on it and plonk it on the side of a case etc.

refleks
Nov 21, 2006




Agreed, and then I realized I most likely threw my sata cables the same place as the M.2 screw so I guess I'm gonna go Indiana Jonesing for them before I order...

Geemer
Nov 4, 2010




I always put the unused m.2 screws in the unused standoff in the motherboard. Why would you store them anywhere else?

refleks
Nov 21, 2006




Because I'm a loving idiot

Geemer
Nov 4, 2010




It wasn't really meant as a dig against you, but more against motherboard manufacturers in general. Sure, stick an extra screw in the little baggie in the box, but just put the freaking things in the standoffs.

This whole fastening mechanism is so poorly thought out from a customer experience point of view, it's just kind of embarrassing. I don't care if it was originally thought out to be just for notebooks and was never supposed to be used by consumers at large. These teensy screws are almost as bad as using proprietary designs in how hard it is to get replacements.

refleks
Nov 21, 2006




I know

Don't understand why it isn't a clasping mechanism like everything else on the boards.

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

Some motherboards (supermicros but usually the more workstationy ones) have a clever plastic clip thing where a plug on a short attachment slots in to retain the m.2, it’s very clever and makes installing them super easy and I wish all manufacturers would adopt something like that.


DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

refleks posted:

I know

Don't understand why it isn't a clasping mechanism like everything else on the boards.

Because they have different possible lengths, I'd imagine. Still, you'd think they could do a metal clip-along-the-side thing like with SODIMMs. It's not like it needs all that much retention force to keep the things in there.

Lambert
Apr 14, 2018
If you can read this, I'm posting in bad faith.


Fallen Rib

priznat posted:

Some motherboards (supermicros but usually the more workstationy ones) have a clever plastic clip thing where a plug on a short attachment slots in to retain the m.2, it’s very clever and makes installing them super easy and I wish all manufacturers would adopt something like that.




Lenovo Thinkcentre PCs have a plastic clip as well.

Some Goon
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



Do they really need held in at the furthest point? Like, it's more rigid, but you shouldn't be putting pressure on them anyways. Just put a latching push pin to line up with the nearest hole.

Probably significantly more expensive though, possibly even costing a cent or two each.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


ItBreathes posted:

Do they really need held in at the furthest point? Like, it's more rigid, but you shouldn't be putting pressure on them anyways. Just put a latching push pin to line up with the nearest hole.

They don't need to be for a desktop, but M.2 wasn't really intended as a desktop spec. The standard inherited the connector from Mini PCIe. It was designed first for laptops and other systems where small size is important and replacing the drive is rare if ever. Being securely fastened down is important, Mini PCIe used 1 or 2 screws on the end for retention, so that's what they stuck with.

I think originally U.2 was intended to be the form factor for new super-fast desktop drives, but M.2 sticks were available first at consumer prices (made for ultrabooks). People started putting M.2 drives in their desktops using the pcie passive adapter cards and the rest is history.



Also m.2 isn't that hard to deal with if you just stop being lazy and pull your PC out onto a table, remove the GPU or whatever else is in the way, and take some extra time to do it right. And I don't even know what to tell the people who lost their screws. Organize your life and put things away in a place where they won't get lost. Clean your gooncave! Get off my lawn!

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priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

At work we mount dozens and dozens of m.2s to either aic or u.2 adapters on nice flat clean bench surfaces and we stillhave the occasional screw that slips in someone’s fingers, bounces once, and is gone after a fruitless search of the floor. This wouldn’t be a big deal if manufacturers would include a spare or two but they never do.

Sure we could improve the protocol to prevent screw escapes but it seems like such a dumb thing to have to do.

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