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ChiralCondensate
Nov 13, 2007

what is that man doing to his colour palette?


Grimey Drawer

priznat posted:

At work we mount dozens and dozens of m.2s to either aic or u.2 adapters on nice flat clean bench surfaces and we stillhave the occasional screw that slips in someone’s fingers, bounces once, and is gone after a fruitless search of the floor. This wouldn’t be a big deal if manufacturers would include a spare or two but they never do.

Sure we could improve the protocol to prevent screw escapes but it seems like such a dumb thing to have to do.
I fumble + lose even the drat case screws so I try to put down a white sheet when I monkey with things.

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Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


ifixit kits have nice strong magnets that hold on to even crappy screws quite well, as long as they aren't totally non-magnetic

just sayin'

Some Goon
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



When I helped my buddy build his computer we thought we were up poo poo creek for a good while because the screw was hiding very well amongst the paperwork. And, while this is partially the fault of my less than ideal case, getting the thing lined up was difficult. At least put something to close off the hole so it'll stay overtop.

Fair point about portables though.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Just use some double-sided foam tape like you would on a 2.5"! Works fine!

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


priznat posted:

Some motherboards (supermicros but usually the more workstationy ones) have a clever plastic clip thing where a plug on a short attachment slots in to retain the m.2, it’s very clever and makes installing them super easy and I wish all manufacturers would adopt something like that.




Oh man, these are awesome. Apparently no one is selling them stateside. I'm kind of tempted to see what it would cost to source 500 and sell them on Amazon.

Some Goon
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



DrDork posted:

Just use some double-sided foam tape like you would on a 2.5"! Works fine!

Lol, you think I use tape?



E: Sorry, its hard to tell how big things are when phoneposting.

Some Goon fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Mar 19, 2020

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001



My SSD is literally just free hanging in my case pointing vertical supported entirely by the strength and rigidity of the SATA power cable

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

Klyith posted:

They don't need to be for a desktop, but M.2 wasn't really intended as a desktop spec. The standard inherited the connector from Mini PCIe. It was designed first for laptops and other systems where small size is important and replacing the drive is rare if ever. Being securely fastened down is important, Mini PCIe used 1 or 2 screws on the end for retention, so that's what they stuck with.

I think originally U.2 was intended to be the form factor for new super-fast desktop drives, but M.2 sticks were available first at consumer prices (made for ultrabooks). People started putting M.2 drives in their desktops using the pcie passive adapter cards and the rest is history.



Also m.2 isn't that hard to deal with if you just stop being lazy and pull your PC out onto a table, remove the GPU or whatever else is in the way, and take some extra time to do it right. And I don't even know what to tell the people who lost their screws. Organize your life and put things away in a place where they won't get lost. Clean your gooncave! Get off my lawn!

Yeah but when that tiny rear end screw gets stripped during a swap I'm still pretty hosed.

GRINDCORE MEGGIDO
Feb 28, 1985


isndl posted:

Yeah but when that tiny rear end screw gets stripped during a swap I'm still pretty hosed.

Just loose finger tight them with the smallest driver that fits. You won't strip them unless the threads are boned.

FRINGE
May 23, 2003
title stolen for lf posting


isndl posted:

Yeah but when that tiny rear end screw gets stripped during a swap I'm still pretty hosed.

If you put enough pressure on that to strip it you may as well just use a hammer and a nail on the mobo and be done with it.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

Nah, I'm trying to install my own bigger SSD and the factory over-tightened while installing theirs.

refleks
Nov 21, 2006




Klyith posted:

They don't need to be for a desktop, but M.2 wasn't really intended as a desktop spec. The standard inherited the connector from Mini PCIe. It was designed first for laptops and other systems where small size is important and replacing the drive is rare if ever. Being securely fastened down is important, Mini PCIe used 1 or 2 screws on the end for retention, so that's what they stuck with.

I think originally U.2 was intended to be the form factor for new super-fast desktop drives, but M.2 sticks were available first at consumer prices (made for ultrabooks). People started putting M.2 drives in their desktops using the pcie passive adapter cards and the rest is history.



Also m.2 isn't that hard to deal with if you just stop being lazy and pull your PC out onto a table, remove the GPU or whatever else is in the way, and take some extra time to do it right. And I don't even know what to tell the people who lost their screws. Organize your life and put things away in a place where they won't get lost. Clean your gooncave! Get off my lawn!

Joke's on you, I remembered I was very careful about putting everything not used in the build back in the corresponding boxes.

(That I then put the boxes, in a very big box that is currently sitting at the veeery bottom of my basement storage unit with 12 other boxes piled on top is another story)

I found a sata cable in my drawer-of-cables, so 2.5" SATA Drive it is!

Palladium
May 8, 2012


I nabbed a cheapo Maxtor Z1 960GB SATA3 that reads at 9500 IOPS on 4K QD1, which is 95% performance of a MX500 but at 68% of the price here in Singapore. This makes my 6th SSD since 2013.

KingKapalone
Dec 20, 2005
1/16 Native American + 1/2 Hungarian = Totally Badass

How's this for $135 before tax? https://www.newegg.com/western-digi...N82E16820250110

The WD store has a 10% discount for first time newsletter sign up. Should I just wait for a $100 drive that doesn't have all this crazy performance I won't need for gaming?

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


KingKapalone posted:

How's this for $135 before tax? https://www.newegg.com/western-digi...N82E16820250110

The WD store has a 10% discount for first time newsletter sign up. Should I just wait for a $100 drive that doesn't have all this crazy performance I won't need for gaming?

Why wait? The adata SU800 1TB is on sale for $100 right now.

($135 is a good price for that WD drive though if you're enticed by NVMe. It's now possible that games will take more advantage of NVMe speed with new consoles having them. I'm somewhat doubtful it'll work out like that in reality, but MS and Sony are certainly hyping it up.)

Klyith fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Mar 23, 2020

KingKapalone
Dec 20, 2005
1/16 Native American + 1/2 Hungarian = Totally Badass

Klyith posted:

Why wait? The adata SU800 1TB is on sale for $100 right now.

($135 is a good price for that WD drive though if you're enticed by NVMe. It's now possible that games will take more advantage of NVMe speed with new consoles having them. I'm somewhat doubtful it'll work out like that in reality, but MS and Sony are certainly hyping it up.)

Are there NVMe drives that are $100? The form factor alone is one thing I'm interested in since I already have two SATA SSDs in here plus a 3.5".

The Electronaut
May 10, 2009


KingKapalone posted:

Are there NVMe drives that are $100? The form factor alone is one thing I'm interested in since I already have two SATA SSDs in here plus a 3.5".

Since late last year m.2 nvme 1tb drops have been around that price point off and on through sales on a regular basis. Actual fixed at 100 pricing, I haven't seen. A quick skim of Newegg shows that regular pricing for nvme drives at 120.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


KingKapalone posted:

Are there NVMe drives that are $100? The form factor alone is one thing I'm interested in since I already have two SATA SSDs in here plus a 3.5".

Nah. There are sata M.2 drives like this wd blue for $110, but the savings over the nvme drive are getting even smaller.

You can find cheaper NVMe drives on off-brands like Microcenter's Inland. The HP EX920 is a good drive but it seems to have jumped up in price / sold out. But prices seem to be climbing right now so I'd just get something now if you need it.

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006

Just wear the fucking mask, Bob


Apparently this qualifies as a slick deal right now:

500GB Western Digital WD BLACK SN750 NVMe M.2 2280 @Newegg $67

You could get 1TB Sabrent NVMe drives for $90 a few weeks ago

Some Goon
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



I paid $140 for an inland Premium late January, when they had been $110 two weeks prior. I'm sure corona doesn't help but SSD prices were already spiking.

Endymion FRS MK1
Oct 28, 2011



I'm still kicking myself for not buying a 2TB Inland Premium for $200 around New Years

KingKapalone
Dec 20, 2005
1/16 Native American + 1/2 Hungarian = Totally Badass

Klyith posted:

Nah. There are sata M.2 drives like this wd blue for $110, but the savings over the nvme drive are getting even smaller.

You can find cheaper NVMe drives on off-brands like Microcenter's Inland. The HP EX920 is a good drive but it seems to have jumped up in price / sold out. But prices seem to be climbing right now so I'd just get something now if you need it.

Seems like the SN750 at $135 would be the best option. I guess I could save $5 and get this but it's QLC if that matters https://smile.amazon.com/Sabrent-Ro...B/dp/B07ZZYWTBP

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


KingKapalone posted:

Seems like the SN750 at $135 would be the best option. I guess I could save $5 and get this but it's QLC if that matters https://smile.amazon.com/Sabrent-Ro...B/dp/B07ZZYWTBP

For $5 definitely not worth it. In general I'd rather have a sata drive than a QLC NVMe.

KingKapalone
Dec 20, 2005
1/16 Native American + 1/2 Hungarian = Totally Badass

Klyith posted:

For $5 definitely not worth it. In general I'd rather have a sata drive than a QLC NVMe.

Looking at the reviews for the cheaper Blue SN550, it looks faster in games. I don't really do any file transfers from my main drive since I have a 3TB data drive and a NAS for that. Should I just go with that then?

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


KingKapalone posted:

Looking at the reviews for the cheaper Blue SN550, it looks faster in games. I don't really do any file transfers from my main drive since I have a 3TB data drive and a NAS for that. Should I just go with that then?

The Blue SN550 is the same thing as a SN750 but without DRAM and 4 io channels rather than 8. Any test that showed the SN550 as being faster than the SN750 is probably a flawed test -- for example not running the test enough times to find the error bars. (Games are particularly bad for this because they can have different times if you delete and reinstall them, meaning that a thorough test is a laborious process. This is why many of the top-tier sites that do the most scientific testing don't even do game loading comparisons anymore.)


As for whether you should get the SN550, it's fine but I'd rather have a drive with DRAM cache as an OS drive.

FRINGE
May 23, 2003
title stolen for lf posting


Wrong thread, but related price issues, with world unemployment skyrocketing, why aren't video card prices coming down?

Bitcoin is done, and the 20xx cards are not new tech.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Because AMD still can't get their poo poo in order long enough to pose an actual challenge to NVidia except in specific market segments. Don't expect NVidia to relax pricing until that changes.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


A million people just bought new PCs to work from home, and the global supply chain is more than a bit hosed up at the moment.

If you need new PC hardware now, you should get it now because things will probably get worse in the US before they get better. If you don't need a thing and just want a new video card to play doom eternal at ultra settings instead of high, maybe consider waiting until the end of the year. If you are buying stuff just because a pandemic is disrupting supply chains and you want it just in case, you're an idiot.

KingKapalone
Dec 20, 2005
1/16 Native American + 1/2 Hungarian = Totally Badass

Klyith posted:

The Blue SN550 is the same thing as a SN750 but without DRAM and 4 io channels rather than 8. Any test that showed the SN550 as being faster than the SN750 is probably a flawed test -- for example not running the test enough times to find the error bars. (Games are particularly bad for this because they can have different times if you delete and reinstall them, meaning that a thorough test is a laborious process. This is why many of the top-tier sites that do the most scientific testing don't even do game loading comparisons anymore.)


As for whether you should get the SN550, it's fine but I'd rather have a drive with DRAM cache as an OS drive.

Would my Samsung 850 EVO SATA drive be better suited for an OS drive and then just use the SN550 as a game drive?

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


KingKapalone posted:

Would my Samsung 850 EVO SATA drive be better suited for an OS drive and then just use the SN550 as a game drive?

Honestly, the other way around. NVMe actually offers a decent boost to boot-up time and the current difference to games is tiny to non-existent (and you’ll still have plenty of space left on the SN550).

On the other hand, unless you’re restarting all the time there’s really not going to be much of a difference either way. If you already have you’re OS installed on the 850, leaving it that way would be fine!

FRINGE
May 23, 2003
title stolen for lf posting


Klyith posted:

A million people just bought new PCs to work from home, and the global supply chain is more than a bit hosed up at the moment.

If you need new PC hardware now, you should get it now because things will probably get worse in the US before they get better. If you don't need a thing and just want a new video card to play doom eternal at ultra settings instead of high, maybe consider waiting until the end of the year. If you are buying stuff just because a pandemic is disrupting supply chains and you want it just in case, you're an idiot.

Im using a used 1050 right now, I had been planning on upgrading for months ... and here we are.

Cygni
Nov 12, 2005

raring to post



Yes yes, I know its a Linus video, but still a pretty enjoyable video with some dorks trying to tell the difference between identical systems with PCIe Gen 3 NVME, Gen 4 NVME, and Sata without benchmarking.

You prolly can guess the outcome, but I wont spoil it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DKLA7w9eeA

Drives used:

Sata - WD Blue
Gen3 - Corsair MP300
Gen4 - Corsair MP600

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001



Curious as to what Sony actually did to make their SSD so fast or if it's pure cherry picked synthetic benchmarks with some tweaks in the stack to handwave why it's accurate

Stickman
Feb 1, 2004

much, much larger than your hat, but not as large as the moon
-DNA


Maybe should have done that video before he stuck a $400 4.0 NVMe in his $2K build recommendation, with a 2070 Super...

Stickman fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Apr 2, 2020

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

WhyteRyce posted:

Curious as to what Sony actually did to make their SSD so fast or if it's pure cherry picked synthetic benchmarks with some tweaks in the stack to handwave why it's accurate

If you mean for the upcoming PS5, it's kinda both: they've added a hardware decompression chip to the SSD, and will be distributing games as pre-packaged compressed blobs. The numbers they're quoting are the effective decompressed output speeds of reading those compressed blobs (eg, say it can do 4Gb/s native read but gets a 2:1 compression ratio, they'll call that 8Gb/s because that's what's ending up being dumped into RAM). Write speeds should be much lower and more like what we'd expect from a normal NVMe drive, and same for reading anything that's not one of the compressed blobs.

Frankly, it's a real clever way to get a ton more read performance out of the system.

repiv
Aug 13, 2009



College Slice

DrDork posted:

If you mean for the upcoming PS5, it's kinda both: they've added a hardware decompression chip to the SSD, and will be distributing games as pre-packaged compressed blobs.

The decompressor is actually part of the SoC, which pushes performance even higher because the output side isn't bottlenecked by PCIe4.

Sony is claiming 8-9GB/sec typical output after decompression but apparently the theoretical limit is 22GB/sec on trivially compressible data.

oohhboy
Jun 8, 2013


What was old is made new again. Decompressing to get more bandwidth has been around forever. How else would you get a remotely tolerable loading time off a HDD especially on consoles. Putting it in hardware is new as it is normally done with the CPU which on consoles is always garbage that chokes.

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006

Just wear the fucking mask, Bob


Didn't sandforce do compression with their SSD controllers

repiv
Aug 13, 2009



College Slice

Bob Morales posted:

Didn't sandforce do compression with their SSD controllers

They did, but doing it their way means the controller also has to handle compressing the data on-the-fly which is only practical with very simple compression codecs, and you only gain bandwidth, not storage space from the compression. If the data is already compressed, as game data usually is to save space, you gain nothing because the controller can't compress it any more. Plus the decompressed bandwidth is still bottlenecked by SATA/PCIe.

The new consoles require developers to compress their games with the hardware codec ahead-of-time so they can use very strong compressors - the Kraken codec the PS5 uses is nearly as strong as LZMA/7zip.

repiv fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Apr 2, 2020

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Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


repiv posted:

and you only gain bandwidth, not storage space from the compression

The drive didn't give any extra space to the user... but since the flash inside generally had less space actually used than the listed capacity, it was an advantage for stuff like write speed & amplification. It was a pretty decent bonus back before OSes supported trim commands. Rapidly became pointless as drives got bigger and controllers got more sophisticated though.


repiv posted:

The new consoles require developers to compress their games with the hardware codec ahead-of-time so they can use very strong compressors - the Kraken codec the PS5 uses is nearly as strong as LZMA/7zip.

Hmmm, sounds like patching could be a lot worse though. You'd either have to download full blobs which would suck for people with caps, or decompress and recompress locally.

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