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Some Goon
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



More SD than SSD, but we don't have a removable media thread. My 3DS's SD card isn't recognized by it, nor my laptop's integrated reader, nor my external reader. It was a microcenter special and thus cheap as hell, but its only like 3 months old. The contacts are a little worn but they don't look dead to me and I gave it an iso and q-tip rubdown, nor have I ever seen an edge contact go completely. Before I write it off entirely, is there anything to try to see if I can recover it?

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endlessmonotony
Nov 4, 2009


There is a 3DS thread.

Also, no. There's literally nothing left to do to get that thing back to "working". Probably some tricks if you really want to copy off the data, but it's not staying alive long.

Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?


Klyith posted:

If you want a bigger drive & to replace the HDD, good 1tb sata drives are the WD Blue 3d or crucial MX500.

Any reason to go with one over the other?

codo27
Apr 21, 2008

"I dont fully understand football contracts but you can just be outright cut if you're shit right? With no penalties? Hockey needs that."

I Am Marc Bergevin IRL


Price? The crucial is what we use at work so it cant be any good

Cygni
Nov 12, 2005

raring to post



I've used both, they are both great for home use and you really won't be able to tell any difference between the two. Both are SATA, both have DRAM, both have solid controller firmwares (WD uses a Marvell controller and the Crucial uses the ubiquitous SMI), and both use established NAND. If you need a home use SATA SSD, they are the ones you should be buying.

I'm slightly partial to the Crucial, but wouldn't pay more than a few dollars more for it.

sean10mm
Jun 29, 2005

Only dead doggos
follow the stream.



Right now it looks like the few PCIe 4.0 M.2 SSDs out there really aren't worth the markup and basically just score better on some synthetic benchmarks.

Is there an expectation that at some point PCIe 4.0 drives will have a real-world speed advantage over 3.0 as the technology matures and better controllers are developed? Or is it likely to just be jerking off for the foreseeable future?

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

For the foreseeable future it's 75% jerk-off material for home users. There's real applications in datacenters and whatnot, but it's not gonna do all that much to help you load Word appreciably faster.

The 25% where it might actually matter is next-gen games. With the XBox targeting a ~5.5 Gbps drive and the PS5 being able to do some operations as fast as 9 GBps, having a PCIe 4.0 SSD that can hit >5 Gbps may provide some advantage over current ~3 Gbps drives. But that's entirely speculative right now.

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006

Just wear the fucking mask, Bob


Rinkles posted:

Any reason to go with one over the other?

Anandtech said:

quote:

The Western Digital WD Blue 3D/SanDisk Ultra 3D is almost as fast as the MX500 and almost as cheap, so it's a good product to keep an eye on

apropos man
Sep 5, 2016

You get a hundred and forty one thousand years and you're out in eight!

I have a similar question to the points being raised in the couple of posts above this one...


I've been running 2x WD Reds in RAID mirror for what seems like a long time now. They're in my main server, running ZoL (ZFS on Linux) and I distinctly remember buying the most recent one when I first moved into the flat I lived in before the house I just moved into. So that was two house-moves ago which would make the youngest one about 5 years old.

So I have a mirror pair of NAS drives (only 1TB drives. I dunno if you could actually call 1TB a NAS drive these days). Neither of them have any obvious SMART errors and they seem to e healthy enough, in a server that's running 24/7.

Recently I've been hovering around the 900GB mark on the mirror and I've been dying for a respectable brand of 2TB 2.5" SATA SSD to come down in price enough, so that I can go fully SSD and forget about spinning rust forever. I'm talking about using a pair of Crucial MX500, ADATA SU800 or WD Blue like the ones mentioned above. That would double my storage and, by the time I ever have to think about putting in a new array, we'd be looking at 4TB SSD's for £100 or whatever. If my oldest WD Red is about 6/7 years old, I don't see why I can't make a pair of quality SSD's last about 10 years as storage devices.
(a pair of Samsung would be equally as good, but not when we know around these parts that you can get something that's 98% as good as a Samsung for 75% of the price)

Yesterday I was browsing eBay and saw an ad for the 2TB WD Blue for £180 and I had an eBay coupon for 5% off that was due to expire yesterday. That would make it £171. I know this is still not in bargain territory, but we're still talking about something I expect to last me close to a decade and I still don't know what coronavirus is going to do to the market over the next year.

Readers, if you've made it this far, you will understand that I was getting excited about ditching spinning rust at this point. I looked at the sellers feedback and it looks fine. He's even got a few more 2TB WD Blue SSD's in his history. I then went back to his advert and there was not just one, but TWO! There were TWO drives still on sale, out of a batch of ten! At this point I feel that the gods of fuckybumbooboo had aligned and were nodding at me sagely. while encircling me from above.

I bought the 2 drives for £342 and if I'll give them a good check to see if they're legit before RAID'ing them up. Like I say, seems like a genuine seller though.

I've had a snooze since then and when I woke up an hour ago I started thinking about doing some server maintenance with my new drives this weekend and started feeling quite giddy with anticipation.

Then a thought popped into my head: why don't I just look online for a 3rd drive, even if I have to pay more like £200 for it, and put all 3 drives in a RAIDZ? That would give me a capacity of roughly 3.5TB instead of the 2TB another mirror would give me?

So I've been up in the middle of the night, looking for another WD Blue SATA SSD for around full price and I've seen a 2TB MX500 instead, which is one of the drives I'd originally considered.

----

If there anything reckless about mixing 'n matching 2 WD Blue 2.5" SATA 2TB drives with a single 2TB MX500 in RAIDZ and expecting to get normal wear rates and typical failure times?

I'm thinking "no, it should be OK, because all of the high-end consumer drives (860Evo, MX500, SU800, WD Blue) are roughly the same performance. But then I am aware that there are gonna be a helluva lot of transactions occuring over a 10-year period, so maybe it's not such a good idea.

apropos man fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Jun 30, 2020

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


apropos man posted:

If there anything reckless about mixing 'n matching 2 WD Blue 2.5" SATA 2TB drives with a single 2TB MX500 in RAIDZ and expecting to get normal wear rates and typical failure times?

TLC consumer SSDs have far more write endurance than you are likely to use up. If I'm understanding RaidZ correctly, you should have about the same write wear across all drives. And if ZFS does regular maintenance checking to make sure data is good, that should be almost all reads. Data read has negligible effect on lifespan.

WD Blues and MX500s are extremely similar in performance so mixing and matching should be fine. They might be a tiny bit different in actual drive space, but software raid is good for that.

apropos man
Sep 5, 2016

You get a hundred and forty one thousand years and you're out in eight!

I'm glad you've confirmed my suspicions. I think buying an extra drive and having 3.5TB of SSD with a one drive redundancy will serve me well for years. I will also be keeping snapshots and doing scrubs and backups, of course.

ZFS seems to automatically create a fixed slice of block storage when you run a command to create a three-way RAIDZ. Here's what it did when I created a RAIDZ on some 250GB Samsung 850Evo's the other week:

code:



[root@stib ~]$ lsblk 
NAME           MAJ:MIN RM   SIZE RO TYPE  MOUNTPOINT FSTYPE      UUID
sda              8:0    0 232.9G  0 disk                                                                                                                
sda1           8:1    0 232.9G  0 part             zfs_member 
sda9           8:9    0     8M  0 part                                                             
sdb              8:16   0 232.9G  0 disk                                                                                                                
sdb1           8:17   0 232.9G  0 part             zfs_member  
sdb9           8:25   0     8M  0 part                                                        
sdc              8:32   0 232.9G  0 disk                                                                                                                
sdc1           8:33   0 232.9G  0 part             zfs_member 
sdc9           8:41   0     8M  0 part                                             

So it has automatically left 8M off at the end of each drive. It must have decided on the correct length to use for storage on each drive (maybe soething to do with block alignment?). [ I had to butcher the output of lsblk command, there, to remove special characters, but you get what I mean.]

code:
[root@stib ~]$ zfs list
NAME                      USED  AVAIL     REFER  MOUNTPOINT
Z1pool850s                416G  33.1G     30.6K  /Z1pool850s
Z1pool850s/store          387G  33.1G      209G  /mnt/Triple_850Evos/store
Z1pool850s/store_remote  28.5G  33.1G     28.5G  /mnt/Triple_850Evos/store_remote
^ I get around 450G with my old 3x250GB Samsung's


I wonder if the fact that I'm gonna probably go with the MX500 I saw last night and I will have three very similar performing drives in the array mackes a difference? I'm gonna do that anyway. It seems like the right thing to do, to prevent IO waits etc.

apropos man fucked around with this message at 06:49 on Jun 30, 2020

TITTIEKISSER69
Mar 19, 2005

I'M JUST HERE TO KISS TITTIESS AND WIN FOOTBALL GAMES!
(AND GET EVERYBODY FIRED)


How are the Samsung QVO drives? Here's their 1TB on sale for $100 via Amazon: https://www.bradsdeals.com/p/454443...424549&d=070120

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


TITTIEKISSER69 posted:

How are the Samsung QVO drives? Here's their 1TB on sale for $100 via Amazon: https://www.bradsdeals.com/p/454443...424549&d=070120

You can get 1TB TLC drives for $100 on sales. The adata SU800 was $99 at newegg a week ago, WD blue and MX500s are frequently just a hair over $100.

In general, there is zero reason to buy a QVO when it's not sold for any sort of discount over TLC drives.



VVVV edit: yeah all undelete / file recovery software has been somewhere between dicey to nearly unusable with SSDs since nearly the beginning. Even back before TRIM, the garbage collection meant that deleted data had a much shorter half-life than HDDs.

Klyith fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Jul 1, 2020

Fabulousity
Dec 29, 2008





Nap Ghost

Another weird moment brought to you by 2020: Microsoft essentially updates and makes available a new Undelete utility but in a true monkey paw wish fashion the utility is utterly useless with modern SSDs because of how they handle data deletion.

quote:

After some more frustrated digging, it dawned on us that our VM's C drive was stored on a ZFS pool which was itself living on a set of SSDs—and that perhaps the TRIM functionality of those disks was shredding our data faster than we could recover it. In order to test this hypothesis, we created a new backing file on a second, rust-based pool, fed it to our VM as a separate X drive, and tried again.

After deleting our third sacrificial JPG from the new X drive using DEL on the command line, we tried winfr again—and this time, it worked perfectly; our freshly deleted JPG showed up in all its glory on the "USB" drive mounted as F, just as we'd requested.

There are a couple of important lessons to be learned here. The more obvious one is that most people likely can't benefit from winfr (or other undelete applications) at all—the vast majority of modern systems store C on an SSD with TRIM functionality available.



On the magnetic side of things they also found SMR disks can mess with the process by making it take unusually long amounts of time to recover files versus CMR drives.

Fame Douglas
Nov 20, 2013

RELY NOT ON MY HONOR!!! FOR WHEN I OFFER MY WORD OF BOND, I TAKE NOT THAT VOW TO HEART!! CASUALLY, I BRING SHAME TO MY HOUSEHOLD AND RUIN TO THOSE WHO RELY ON MY COMMITMENT, BY SHIRKING MY AVOWED DUTY

Fabulousity posted:

On the magnetic side of things they also found SMR disks can mess with the process by making it take unusually long amounts of time to recover files versus CMR drives.

And that's even before you're trying to undelete something!

Palladium
May 8, 2012


TITTIEKISSER69 posted:

How are the Samsung QVO drives? Here's their 1TB on sale for $100 via Amazon: https://www.bradsdeals.com/p/454443...424549&d=070120

Forget $100, its godawful even at $80. QVO is an idiot tax through and through.

In Anandtech's own words: "The 1TB QVOs (both old and new) are prone to write latencies that are worse than the 5400RPM hard drive."
https://www.anandtech.com/show/1588...qlc-refreshed/3

Palladium fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Jul 2, 2020

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Palladium posted:

In Anandtech's own words: "The 1TB QVOs (both old and new) are prone to write latencies that are worse than the 5400RPM hard drive."
https://www.anandtech.com/show/1588...qlc-refreshed/3

That's very much a worst case. Running through the SLC buffer and then still having sustained random write is not a scenario most users, even enthusiasts, will encounter frequently. Or at all.

I don't disagree that QLC is generally worth avoiding, but mostly that's just due to the price difference being so negligible. If 2TB QLC drives were being sold for $165 -- which would be scaled to the 4/3rds QLC advantage -- then the possible downsides would be worth living with. At that point you have 2TB and can keep a nice healthy SLC buffer with some free space.

For ten bucks discount? Nah.

Chikimiki
May 14, 2009


Seems that QLC drives are in the awkward middle ground between faster, slightly more expensive TLC drives and slower but cheaper HDDs.
I guess if you really have an aversion to spinning rust why not... But unless those drives are heavily discounted they are not worth it.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Chikimiki posted:

Seems that QLC drives are in the awkward middle ground between faster, slightly more expensive TLC drives and slower but cheaper HDDs.
I guess if you really have an aversion to spinning rust why not... But unless those drives are heavily discounted they are not worth it.

Read the whole article rather than the cherry-picked sentence that Palladium quoted.

quote:

So it should come as no surprise that the strengths and weaknesses of the 870 QVO fall in different areas that are typical for entry-level drives. The most acute performance problems occur when the drive is asked to write more data than can fit in its SLC cache, and then the abysmal write performance of QLC NAND is laid bare. By contrast, many entry-level DRAMless SSDs that use TLC NAND have decent sustained write performance, and most tend to suffer worst on random IO workloads.

Overall, it's hard to say whether the 870 QVO offers a better performance profile than other typical entry-level SATA SSDs. Its best-case performance is better but its worst case performance is worse. The 870 QVO does have the advantage that its weaknesses are a bit more predictable, since they almost all stem from the poor write speed of QLC NAND. DRAMless SSDs can be quite variable, as shown by the pair included in this review.

QLC drives are not at all some half-step to HDDs. First, all of the downsides of QLC are on write performance. Desktop users care about read performance for 99% of their use. As long as you're reading, QLC drives are the same as TLC.

Second, as long as your data fits in the SLC cache the write performance is excellent. How often do you write 50-100 GB at a time? And installing steam games doesn't count: anything downloaded from the internet is slower enough that even the QLC can keep up. For me that's not never, but it's pretty rare.

However, the potential downsides do exist and I'd personally prefer a QLC drive as a secondary drive, for game installs and such. In that type of job they're as good as any other SSD. (And I don't want to pay Samsung prices for it. Crucial's BX500 is now QLC on 1 & 2TB sizes, and is appropriately cheap.)

Cygni
Nov 12, 2005

raring to post



The problem for QLC is quality TLC+dram drives with neither trade off exist in the same price range. For example, at the all important 1TB size, a bottom of the barrel dramless TLC drive is $90, an 860 QVO is $110, and a WD Blue (TLC+dram) is $115. Unless you are really penny pinching, I would get the Blue and never think about it again.

At the moment, QLC doesn’t start making a compelling argument to me until you get to the 4TB range (or 2TB for NVMe), where the SLC cache is so big so as to be functionally an SLC drive to most users, and the price and density advantage start to make a meaningful difference.

Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?


Is there a simple way to tell whether a mother board is SATA 2 or 3 if windows won't boot (hence the need for a new drive)? This is a ~6 year old desktop PC.

Also, am I correct that the cable doesn't matter when it comes to SATA versions?

Rexxed
May 1, 2010

Dis is amazing!
I gotta try dis!



Rinkles posted:

Is there a simple way to tell whether a mother board is SATA 2 or 3 if windows won't boot (hence the need for a new drive)? This is a ~6 year old desktop PC.

Also, am I correct that the cable doesn't matter when it comes to SATA versions?

The easiest way is probably to look up the model of the motherboard and see what ports it shipped with. If it's 6 years old it's likely all SATA 3. SATA 2 and 3 are back and forwards compatible so it shouldn't prevent booting. You can also boot off a live USB drive of some flavor of linux. The cable shouldn't matter, sata 2 and 3 cables are functionally identical, the difference is the locking clip:
https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/...st-all-the-same

Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?


Rexxed posted:

You can also boot off a live USB drive of some flavor of linux.

Yeah I used Puppy to recover data.

Palladium
May 8, 2012


Rinkles posted:

Is there a simple way to tell whether a mother board is SATA 2 or 3 if windows won't boot (hence the need for a new drive)? This is a ~6 year old desktop PC.

Also, am I correct that the cable doesn't matter when it comes to SATA versions?

Unless the particular port, cable or drive is inherently faulty, the cable or port doesn't matter.

I suggest you connect the drive on a new cable to another unused port to rule out a faulty port, then check whether the BIOS is able to detect the drive.

ThermoPhysical
Dec 26, 2007





Anyone know what a good m.2 SSD would be? I need to replace one a friend gave me and I dunno what a good one would be.

https://www.newegg.com/western-digi...N82E16820250109

I'm thinking about this one, maybe?

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006

Just wear the fucking mask, Bob


ThermoPhysical posted:

Anyone know what a good m.2 SSD would be? I need to replace one a friend gave me and I dunno what a good one would be.

https://www.newegg.com/western-digi...N82E16820250109

I'm thinking about this one, maybe?

That’s a good drive

ThermoPhysical
Dec 26, 2007





Bob Morales posted:

That’s a good drive

Recently found out that I'd need the drive sooner rather than later and I'm not sure how fast Newegg would ship.

https://www.amazon.com/Blue-SN550-5.../dp/B07YFF3JCN/

Is this one good too?

EDIT: It'd just be to store personal data, it wouldn't be for OS stuff.

ThermoPhysical fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Jul 5, 2020

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006

Just wear the fucking mask, Bob


ThermoPhysical posted:

Recently found out that I'd need the drive sooner rather than later and I'm not sure how fast Newegg would ship.

https://www.amazon.com/Blue-SN550-5.../dp/B07YFF3JCN/

Is this one good too?

EDIT: It'd just be to store personal data, it wouldn't be for OS stuff.

Yea that's also a good one.

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006

Just wear the fucking mask, Bob


I think I have a 1TB Silicon Power, 1TB EVO 860, and 512GB EVO 860 somewhere, that I bought to play around with a homelab and never ended up really using. Then the two I end up using all the time ended up being a 120GB PNY and 480GB Sandisk

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


ThermoPhysical posted:

Recently found out that I'd need the drive sooner rather than later and I'm not sure how fast Newegg would ship.

https://www.amazon.com/Blue-SN550-5.../dp/B07YFF3JCN/

Is this one good too?

EDIT: It'd just be to store personal data, it wouldn't be for OS stuff.

If this is a secondary drive for data storage you'd be fine with a QLC drive (Intel 660p, Crucial P1).

ThermoPhysical
Dec 26, 2007





Klyith posted:

If this is a secondary drive for data storage you'd be fine with a QLC drive (Intel 660p, Crucial P1).

I would grab a Crucial P1 (just looked em up and the 500GB is a bit less than the WD Blue) but I need it by at least Wednesday and the WD is delivered tomorrow with Amazon's One Day ship.

Though I will keep an eye on these if I need another drive. Thank you!

codo27
Apr 21, 2008

"I dont fully understand football contracts but you can just be outright cut if you're shit right? With no penalties? Hockey needs that."

I Am Marc Bergevin IRL


ADATA dropped off my replacement SSD on the 30th...still ain't left LA! Wtf is that. Thing gotta come to the very opposite corner of the continent

Subjunctive
Sep 12, 2006

careful now


codo27 posted:

ADATA dropped off my replacement SSD on the 30th...still ain't left LA! Wtf is that. Thing gotta come to the very opposite corner of the continent

Might just be a missing update in the system. In the past few months I’ve had a lot of packages look like they were still sitting in some hub until they teleported to my city and got scanned for delivery.

codo27
Apr 21, 2008

"I dont fully understand football contracts but you can just be outright cut if you're shit right? With no penalties? Hockey needs that."

I Am Marc Bergevin IRL


But there's been a bunch of updates. It's nonsensical really

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

90% of all tracked shipments are sane, fairly accurate, and correctly report more or less how and when you'd expect a package to go from point A to point B and then eventually to your doorstep.

The other 10% are dropped down an oubliette, enter the Upsidedown, are routed through several fantastic realms that may or may not involve Narnia and your grim-dark locale of choice. How long they spend down there is unknown even to the package itself, for these fantastic realms are also of a difference space-time. Due to this, if and when they eventually pop out and teleport to your door, you may find that they have actually arrived before they left (common in the case of Dell packages), or potentially were never shipped in the first place (Etsy, and sometimes Lenovo).

My personal favorite was a steamer trunk a friend of mine tried to ship to himself from San Diego to Afghanistan. After 4 months of no one being able to track or locate it, it showed up at his wife's house in North Carolina, emblazoned with import stamps from South Korea, Vietnam, and Panama. When asked about it, the shipper insisted it was in Kyrgyzstan and that they had no hubs in Panama to begin with.

Quaint Quail Quilt
Jun 19, 2006



So would my ROG Crosshair VIII Hero
Mobo support having Windows/Linux on a m.2 nvme as a primary boot drive, or do you put your games and apps on it and boot off an SSD?

From the Mobo manual:
For 3rd Gen AMD Ryzen™ Processors, the M.2_1 supports PCIe 4.0 x4 and SATA
modes M key design and type 2242/2260/2280 storage devices.
I have a Ryzen Zen 2 3700x

Does that mean pretty much any m.2 nvme is good? I mean I'll check first, but it's pretty standard now right?

I'm reading pcie4 compatibility still gives negligible performance for the price point? But watch the console developments.

Go TLC instead of QLC if you don't mind paying a fuzz more?

Quaint Quail Quilt fucked around with this message at 14:19 on Jul 13, 2020

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Quaint Quail Quilt posted:

So would my ROG Crosshair VIII Hero
Mobo support having Windows/Linux on a m.2 nvme as a primary boot drive, or do you put your games and apps on it and boot of an SSD?

From the Mobo manual:
For 3rd Gen AMD Ryzen™ Processors, the M.2_1 supports PCIe 4.0 x4 and SATA
modes M key design and type 2242/2260/2280 storage devices.
I have a Ryzen Zen 2 3700x

Does that mean pretty much any m.2 nvme is good? I mean I'll check first, but it's pretty standard now right?

I'm reading pcie4 compatibility still gives negligible performance for the price point? But watch the console developments.

Go TLC instead of QLC if you don't mind paying a fuzz more?

Yeah, the industry has pretty much settled on the 2280 format as being the "normal desktop" size. Some laptops and other real small format applications can only support the shorter ones, but unless something specifically says otherwise, 2280 is the default these days. And since PCIe 4.0 is backwards compatible, you can grab even the very newest NVMe drives that do like 5GB/s if you wanted.

TLC > QLC unless you're buying a gently caress-off huge QLC (2TB or more).

codo27
Apr 21, 2008

"I dont fully understand football contracts but you can just be outright cut if you're shit right? With no penalties? Hockey needs that."

I Am Marc Bergevin IRL


There are 22110 as well, my board supports them but from a quick search I did on pcpp it looks like they are mainly for enterprise use

There should be a QVL for them as well just like memory but I doubt its as picky

Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?


Sorry for the non technical post, but this is my first SSD and man are these things tiny and lightweight compared to a hard drive, and I'm not even talking about nvme.

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Geemer
Nov 4, 2010




Rinkles posted:

Sorry for the non technical post, but this is my first SSD and man are these things tiny and lightweight compared to a hard drive, and I'm not even talking about nvme.

Most of the 2.5" ones aren't even filled halfway, they're often just an empty plastic or metal shell for mounting in standard slots with a small PCB in there that does all the magic.

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