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Agony Aunt posted:
Elite is a game that I honestly think doesn't count as an MMO, and I mean that as a compliment. I mostly play it as single player, and the multiplayer features are there to kind of enhance the existing experience. That said, if they did actually add some real MMO-esque features on top of what the game already has? In-game fleets and craftable stations, things for big groups to actually squabble over beyond "Do more missions to get your name on the station boards." Yeah I think it would be amazing. But that's because it holds up well as a SP title, if you're into space trading and bounty hunting. The core works, which means the MMO portion would work, if it really had one.
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Dec 31, 2018 16:28
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I only play Elite in VR and I don;t think it even count as a game, it's an experience, like I load it up, go 'oooohhhh' at an ice asteroid ring then log out. Topical joke: Elite is like a British restaurant, loving huge menus but nothing you like the look of
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Dec 31, 2018 16:38
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peter gabriel posted:UK food, here's the hard hitting truth: There are British food stores here, where my wife goes crazy at Christmas, spending hundreds of dollars on stuff on sweets and poo poo. I like my Whispas but not where it is triple the British price! However, there is nothing - I mean nothing - like British Cadburys chocolate. Canadian Cadburys is waxy with a funny taste. And American chocolate is just ... Also our local Walmart sells British food like Heinz Tomato soup, Ambrosia Rice Pudding and Tunnocks Snowballs. Don't know if their buyer is a Brit, but it is reasonably priced compared to the British food stores. Growler is a container holding 1.8L of beer. Or an iceberg off the coast of Newfoundland.
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Dec 31, 2018 16:39
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Sarsapariller posted:Elite is a game that I honestly think doesn't count as an MMO, and I mean that as a compliment. I mostly play it as single player, and the multiplayer features are there to kind of enhance the existing experience. That said, if they did actually add some real MMO-esque features on top of what the game already has? In-game fleets and craftable stations, things for big groups to actually squabble over beyond "Do more missions to get your name on the station boards." Yeah I think it would be amazing. But that's because it holds up well as a SP title, if you're into space trading and bounty hunting. The core works, which means the MMO portion would work, if it really had one. I'm seeing more and more jobs in the stations and such that require groups to do. Like delivering 5500 units of X to station Y. Or destroy 120 ships from Y faction. In fact I'm seeing more and more of these than I am of the smaller solo missions. Maybe i'm in the wrong systems, but it seems to be getting harder to find SP stuff where I am (Nu Tauri). But as you said, that's the extent of it.
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Dec 31, 2018 16:39
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Sarsapariller posted:I completely agree with you that this is the problem with current MMO's but you're still thinking like a current-gen MMO developer. Describe the game you want, then? I think I'm missing the point. In order for multiplayer and persistence to have non single player meaning there needs to be some sort of interaction between players. I don't see how this can mean everyone "wins" without devolving into single player crap you are deriding. And for wins and losses to have long term meaning, this means players who lose a lot will over time become less "good" in the game than ones who win. Unless you have Warframe / Fortnight / DOTA / whatever. Warframe fails this test because the interactions are "meaningless" after the round is over. if you take out the round simulations you basically just have progress quest. EvilMerlin posted:I'm seeing more and more jobs in the stations and such that require groups to do. Like delivering 5500 units of X to station Y. Or destroy 120 ships from Y faction. In fact I'm seeing more and more of these than I am of the smaller solo missions. Maybe i'm in the wrong systems, but it seems to be getting harder to find SP stuff where I am (Nu Tauri). But as you said, that's the extent of it. Shut up grown ups are talking.
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Dec 31, 2018 16:39
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peter gabriel posted:I only play Elite in VR and I don;t think it even count as a game, it's an experience, like I load it up, go 'oooohhhh' at an ice asteroid ring then log out. Star Citizen is like an Art Gallery cafeteria. Lots of nice paintings and very expensive coffee.
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Dec 31, 2018 16:41
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Scruffpuff posted:I will allow a better man than I to explain why MMOs are made this way: The uberclass is definitely a symptom of MMO's with the giant grind-wall, but I think you're looking at sandboxes kind of exclusively here. My experience with them is limited but I mean, comparatively, no sandbox is even close to as big monetarily as the big four (GW2/WoW/FFXIV/ESO) so I'm not sure it's a fair thing to say that the uberclass is what makes MMO's succeed- maybe it's what lets sandboxes persist, because the people who got there first don't want to move on to a game where they'd have to re-earn that advantage? I can't think of a single counterexample sandbox that doesn't have the giant grind wall, though, so it's hard to say. Of course when you break it apart the actual advantage in basically every sandbox MMO lies with whoever has the horde of guys. It has nothing to do with what you've earned as an individual, and everything to do with how many dumb assholes you can get to do your mining/ratting/crafting. This libertarian ideal of the self-made super player at the top of sperg mountain with his hand crafted adamantium armor is complete bullshit- it's always a horde of naked Chinese players, or goons. Which is probably why Citizens get so pissed when they are reminded of that. They really want to believe that SC is going to be the MMO that finally, finally allows Malcom Reynolds to earn his Serenity and then cruise around in it until the end of time. But what's actually going to happen is that the first time he lands on a planet, 600 coked-up Reavers are going to swarm into his ship and paint the walls with him. Sarsapariller fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Dec 31, 2018 |
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Dec 31, 2018 16:44
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EvilMerlin posted:I'm seeing more and more jobs in the stations and such that require groups to do. Like delivering 5500 units of X to station Y. Or destroy 120 ships from Y faction. In fact I'm seeing more and more of these than I am of the smaller solo missions. Maybe i'm in the wrong systems, but it seems to be getting harder to find SP stuff where I am (Nu Tauri). But as you said, that's the extent of it. This is Elite's advanced AI pleading with you for the love of god try to make friends
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Dec 31, 2018 16:49
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Dogeh posted:
I always laugh when I go through the international aisle at Meijer. Heinz sells cans of Spotted Dick. Guess it would go good with a growler maybe?
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Dec 31, 2018 16:53
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C-Bangin' it 
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Colostomy Bag posted:I always laugh when I go through the international aisle at Meijer. Heinz sells cans of Spotted Dick. Guess it would go good with a growler maybe? I've got a house in France and there is a British shop in the village, it's amazing because small villages in France have a tiny selection of shops with insanely fresh food that is wonderful and cheap and then there is this odd shop festooned with Union Jacks selling bottles of Ketchup for like 6 Euros  To make it weirder the next village over has an English couple who opened a fish and chip shop and they get queues round the building every time they open. Spotted Dick and custard is the food of gods
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Dec 31, 2018 16:57
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We just celebrated New Years over this side of the planet. Here's to another year of good laughs. There's always more; its always verse.
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Dec 31, 2018 16:57
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Beet Wagon posted:Bonus: King Kroket getting jumped for pointing this out the crazy's turning on the longterm backers is never not funny to me, because I can just imagine the realization they're having that it's always been like this, that they were part of the problem or maybe they don't and go on to crowdfund another mess
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Dec 31, 2018 16:58
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peter gabriel posted:UK food, here's the hard hitting truth: I'm glad you're okay
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Dec 31, 2018 16:58
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tuo posted:I'm glad you're okay I really am thank you  Just massively busy, which is great and all, my son's birthday is xmas day too so it's double madness, I've just got a couple of hours downtime before going out for New Years Eve, just realised how much I missed it here, have a great night all
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Dec 31, 2018 17:02
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SoftNum posted:Shut up grown ups are talking. Eat a steaming pile of poo poo.
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Dec 31, 2018 17:02
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peter gabriel posted:This is Elite's advanced AI pleading with you for the love of god try to make friends If that is advanced AI, Star Citizen has already won.
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Dec 31, 2018 17:02
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SoftNum posted:Describe the game you want, then? I think I'm missing the point. In order for multiplayer and persistence to have non single player meaning there needs to be some sort of interaction between players. I don't see how this can mean everyone "wins" without devolving into single player crap you are deriding. And for wins and losses to have long term meaning, this means players who lose a lot will over time become less "good" in the game than ones who win. Unless you have Warframe / Fortnight / DOTA / whatever. Warframe fails this test because the interactions are "meaningless" after the round is over. if you take out the round simulations you basically just have progress quest. Let's look at a completely different game system for a minute. Let's talk about a D&D campaign. You've got one guy building the world, and running a group of players through it. The players have their abilities defined by numbers, and some of those numbers go up, but they don't win if the game ends and they have the biggest numbers in the land. They win by completing the story, or maybe the story bores them so they spend three game sessions building a weird magical mafia and eventually try to extort the King and become his grand council of evil viziers. At no point in the story does a single one of them grind anything unless it is off-screen. Why can't a video game replicate this? Thirty years ago, it was because games simply could not be flexible enough to accommodate the dungeon master position. They had to account for every state the game could end up in, every action the player could take. Games these days are still doing the same thing but it's completely artificial. There is no reason in 2018 that we couldn't have an MMO with multiple parties of 4 or 5 fantasy players being lead around the world by other players tasked as invisible DM's, who were given the power to control and voice NPC's, set up dungeon challenges, and even reshape the world a bit. Are there tons of mechanical and social challenges with the game I just described? Of course! Any time you give players more freedom, you're going to run into those, but they can be solved. The problem is that MMO's aren't even trying.
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Dec 31, 2018 17:03
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EvilMerlin posted:If that is advanced AI, Star Citizen has already won. Could you expand on that, I know I have just been zinged but am unsure as to how
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Dec 31, 2018 17:05
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Beet Wagon posted:
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Dec 31, 2018 17:06
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peter gabriel posted:I've got a house in France and there is a British shop in the village, it's amazing because small villages in France have a tiny selection of shops with insanely fresh food that is wonderful and cheap and then there is this odd shop festooned with Union Jacks selling bottles of Ketchup for like 6 Euros Is there a pizzeria that has pineapple?
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Dec 31, 2018 17:08
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Colostomy Bag posted:Is there a pizzeria that has pineapple? You gotta draw the line somewhere man. You can buy pineapple there but not pizza 
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Dec 31, 2018 17:09
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EvilMerlin posted:If that is advanced AI, Star Citizen has already won. 
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Dec 31, 2018 17:11
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Dec 31, 2018 17:15
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peter gabriel posted:You gotta draw the line somewhere man. Heh. Few nights ago my daughter had a couple friends over to help with her moving back in from her dorm. So I think to feed them pizza is the easiest answer for dinner. Now of course one has to use an optimization equation involving calculus to make everyone happy with their likes/dislikes. My daughter said..."Haley likes pineapple." I cut her off and said that poo poo ain't going to happen in this house.
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Dec 31, 2018 17:17
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Sarsapariller posted:Let's look at a completely different game system for a minute. Let's talk about a D&D campaign. You've got one guy building the world, and running a group of players through it. The players have their abilities defined by numbers, and some of those numbers go up, but they don't win if the game ends and they have the biggest numbers in the land. They win by completing the story, or maybe the story bores them so they spend three game sessions building a weird magical mafia and eventually try to extort the King and become his grand council of evil viziers. At no point in the story does a single one of them grind anything unless it is off-screen. Neverwinter Nights and NWN 2 kinda flopped. I kinda see why. Cooperative improv storytelling is _hard_. And not everyone is smart enough to enjoy doing it. And I feel like the ones who ARE will just all jump on discord and play Everyone is John. If you have a DM who is storytelling with the players, what purpose is the game engine solving for you that something like roll20 doesn't provide? You ALSO have issues that decent DMs are hard to come by, and probably don't want to be forced / coerced into running games for people not of their own choosing (without paying them).\ and if you take the DM out of the equation you don't have anything different from what WoW / FF14 / etc. do.
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Dec 31, 2018 17:18
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SoftNum posted:Describe the game you want, then? I think I'm getting off track because I keep writing these manifesto-like paragraphs so I'm going to close this out and then stop derailing the thread about it, but if I boil it down I want MMO's to do the following: * Stop with the artificial number systems. Make games that reflect the actions the player is performing. Have your magic system rely on actual words and gestures instead of being a level 20 wizard. Have your player with a sword learn the weak spots on enemies and when to block in order to not get stomped instead of sword skill number plus random dice number. * Stop with grind barriers to fun. Gamers are not retarded, and if your game is actually good they do not need an 80 level intro before they begin to play it. Start at the fun part, and let them expand horizontally (or, horror, expand socially) as they play. * Build games that are fun to play for a single player. If the core loops of your game are lovely and tedious for one person, only lovely/tedious people will stick with it. Understand that no matter how great and big and huge your group mechanics are, the vast majority of player time is going to be spent doing stuff alone if you allow them the possibility. If you make a game that requires 5 accounts to play, motherfuckers are going to make 5 accounts and play with 4 bots. It's just going to happen. Figure out how to make it fun to be alone and then build on top of that. * Let players control your game space. This is very scary because deep down we all kind of hate gamers and know that they suck, but the best experiences are the ones that players create with each other. Let the demand for swords of bear slaying come because real people want bear asses, and they want bear asses because some market exploiter thinks there's going to be a bitter bear-rear end famine in three months and he's stocking up. That is fine. Let some random rear end in a top hat be the mayor of your pretend fantasy city of Fucksburg, let them make stupid laws about where the fantasy pets are allowed to poop. It'll be fine. Pay for decent moderation and trust your player base to self regulate. * Stop building your game around the loving cash shop. You need to make money, that's great. Make it by making the game really fun, and then selling inconsequential poo poo, or by having some kind of in-game currency conversion and pull an arbitrage fee from it. These problems have been solved a dozen times over. If you even think about artificially boosting grind and then selling grind-reducing potions, gently caress you forever. * Stop making games with permadeath and item loss and it takes 40 hours to get anywhere. If you do this the endgame will be dominated by a nude horde. Have a loving plan for this or don't put in this rule set. Understand that getting 40 fully armored people in your dumbass grindfest is a thousand times harder than getting 100 naked level 1's with clubs. * Stop loving lying to consumers. Do not put out fake trailers, do not have pre-sales that you don't deliver on. Don't release your game at 2AM under cover of night and then scuttle away, leaving it to fail. Make a product you are interested in supporting or gently caress off forever.
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Dec 31, 2018 17:24
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Sarsapariller posted:I think I'm getting off track because I keep writing these manifesto-like paragraphs so I'm going to close this out and then stop derailing the thread about it, but if I boil it down I want MMO's to do the following: What is your New Years resolution?
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Dec 31, 2018 17:28
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EvilMerlin posted:Eat a steaming pile of poo poo. You know, you were starting to do so well with the dog pics. We forgive and forget (mostly).
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Dec 31, 2018 17:30
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Sarsapariller posted:I think I'm getting off track because I keep writing these manifesto-like paragraphs so I'm going to close this out and then stop derailing the thread about it. This is better than wanking off about Elite and how it's bad cause space legs and you hate games being affordable.
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Dec 31, 2018 17:32
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SoftNum posted:Neverwinter Nights and NWN 2 kinda flopped. You're missing my point here- I threw out a random example to show the possibilities that MMO's are overlooking. It is not the one true game I want, it's just an example of thinking outside the ruleset that defines current MMO development. Of course it has enormous problems, it was an off-the-cuff example. But let's imagine a perfect world where it actually was pulled off well, because we're comparing "Idea in your head" to "The best in the current genre" here. Let's imagine that you solved the problem of getting enough people who wanted to RP as the storytellers, and you solved the problems inherent in a world with multiple storylines running for all kinds of player groups simultaneously. Doesn't that sound fun and interesting? I think it'd kick rear end. NWN was hugely intriguing to me when it was first announced, and then it launched and kind of fell flat on its rear end because it was very technically incompetent and the SP game was a very weird crossbreed of Diablo live action with Baldur's Gate style turn based rules, and it didn't work at all. But a competent game that broke the rules could be amazing. Okay now really done for real, breaking my keyboard over my knee
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Dec 31, 2018 17:35
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Sarsapariller posted:I completely agree with you that this is the problem with current MMO's but you're still thinking like a current-gen MMO developer. You might be on to something there.
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Dec 31, 2018 17:35
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Colostomy Bag posted:What is your New Years resolution? To buy more jpegs
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Dec 31, 2018 17:35
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Dec 31, 2018 17:37
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Sarsapariller posted:To buy more jpegs Godspeed.
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Dec 31, 2018 17:42
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Razorfist: "did I miss a loving meeting folks? Are you allowed to skate past 'nothing it's wrong go back to sleep everything's fine right' to 'we secured alternate funding and are delaying the game to 2020' without once admitting you hosed up in the interim?" Beet Wagon posted:
Literally the post I had in my mind before the thread was [deleted] 'The project got: money, money, a few features, and that's it! Best year EVAR!'
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Dec 31, 2018 17:44
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Colostomy Bag posted:Godspeed. Hate to quote myself but it should have been Godspend.
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Dec 31, 2018 17:56
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Agony Aunt posted:Oh god... you don't mean.... I fully appreciate you linking this, because it sent my wife off on a YouTube archaeological expedition so now I'm sitting here listening to "Hot Lunch" from the speakers behind me.
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Dec 31, 2018 18:08
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peter gabriel posted:I've got a house in France and there is a British shop in the village, it's amazing because small villages in France have a tiny selection of shops with insanely fresh food that is wonderful and cheap and then there is this odd shop festooned with Union Jacks selling bottles of Ketchup for like 6 Euros A fish and chip shop in Florida would make a mint, but the daft fuckers would open it on i-drive for the tourists, not the massive population of ex-pats. I’ll take a picture of the British aisle at Publix, because it’s hilarious to see your culture, and i use the word loosely, distilled to a bunch of products. Introduced the missus to treacle pudding and custard. Winner.
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Dec 31, 2018 18:08
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Colostomy Bag posted:Heh. Few nights ago my daughter had a couple friends over to help with her moving back in from her dorm. So I think to feed them pizza is the easiest answer for dinner. Now of course one has to use an optimization equation involving calculus to make everyone happy with their likes/dislikes. My daughter said..."Haley likes pineapple." I cut her off and said that poo poo ain't going to happen in this house. Monster. Pineapple is a perfectly viable lifestyle choice.
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Dec 31, 2018 18:12
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Sarsapariller posted:I think I'm getting off track because I keep writing these manifesto-like paragraphs so I'm going to close this out and then stop derailing the thread about it, but if I boil it down I want MMO's to do the following: A game built to these specifications would have a bunch of people at launch and then very shortly have like five. Also quote:Gamers are not retarded This subforum is a giant neon sign that says "YOU'RE WRONG".
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Dec 31, 2018 18:15
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