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Popete
Oct 6, 2009

This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs



Grimey Drawer

Tetraptous posted:

Our AEW will provide plenty of warning; there's no need to preemptively launch all of our fighters at once. Our Grippens can cruise from one of the mission airports to the other in about 10 minutes, if I counted right in the scenario. I say launch a couple armed for A/A just before the first transport takes off and station them near Nyingchi. If more than a couple bogies appear, we scramble more. After the transports perform their missions, a 2 ship of Grippens with Paveways goes the the bridge and bombs from high altitude, using one bomb at a time until the bridge is confirmed destroyed, since the likely threats seem to be limited to low altitude SAMs.

I like this plan. Consider it my vote.

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simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!



Allow me to present Plan P for your consideration:



Launch 1x Gripen with AA Patrol loadout, followed immediately by AEW plane, from Banks, gain altitude towards Ayu
Ensure area clear of airborne threats before India launches transports

A2A Gripen goes ahead to partway along B

Launch 2x Gripen with Paveway and Iris-T loadout, to be overhead when Indian transports depart Ayu

AEW stays back under Indian SAM cover (I know they won't shoot first but sounds like they'll react if a hostile launches at us or our clients)

Our 2 bomber Gripens stay with transports, A2A Gripen stays a fair distance ahead so it can drive off any threat that appears before it gets in range of our convoy

A2A Gripen loiters above Perch (the airbase) until transports get close

All 3 Grippens stay over Perch while MSF transports get in the air

MSF transports to be escorted south ASAP by A2A Gripen who stays slightly behind and West. If the transports can be convinced to fly more Easterly, so as not to re-fly over the same terrain twice, we should do that

As late as possible, the two bomber Gripens head off along C to their target (Carp). They should stay on Perch as long as they can (as fuel allows, leaving enough to complete the mission: with a reserve), so as to give the MSF transports as much time as possible to be close to home when we blow the bridge.
>> if poo poo goes down while they're still on Perch, of course they should assist the convoy

Bomber Gripens should be high and fast (but making sure they have enough fuel to cheese it after dropping). By high, I mean above likely SAM and AAA altitudes but still having good acciracy with our laser guided bomb, and ability to identify bridge as destroyed.
>>One bomber Gripen should be a minute or two ahead of the other. The rear Gripen will react to Air threats while the front one bombs. If the first bomb run is unsuccessful, the second Gripen will also try, hence the couple of minutes gap. If not, save the bomb for another day.


I know borders don't mean much any more, but once bridge is confirmed destroyed, both bomber Gripens are to run away very fast, along a route they didn't enter by. In essence they're running for the nearest borders but it's also in the direction away from Tibet so that's good too.

Air to Air Gripen to head along F and then remain on station above Eel, as time allows, after MSF transports are safely on the ground at Ayu. It will react to any *imminent* threats but the policy for ALL Gripens should be to run under SAM cover first, turn and fight only if running isn't a viable option.

All 3 Gripens meet at Eel then fly together back to Banks, again choosing to run rather than fight if they have to choose.

Note:
I'm still not clear on loadouts. We should pack the cheaper paveways. I'm guessing one doesn't need to lase the target while the other bombs or anything.
I also don't understand when the loadout says "paveway, short range, heavy" vs "short range, light" etc.

Questions for discussion:
What's a good Air to air loadout?
Do we have enough fuel (see mileage on Google map, bear in mind going fast and climbing fast use a lot more fuel)?
I also have no idea about loiter radius etc
Can we keep our Gripen radar on passive? According to Davin's Air Search Circles below we should have lots of warning
How far back do we keep the AEW? And how close do we let enemy aircraft get before we turn it around? Bear in mind that if we expect enemy aircraft to launch and leave, the missile will have a long flight time after it launches where we can turn back - but if the AEW is far from friendly SAMs (not so here) or air support then the incoming fighter can run us down as it flies far faster

simplefish fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Apr 2, 2017

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!



Tetraptous posted:

Our AEW will provide plenty of warning; there's no need to preemptively launch all of our fighters at once. Our Grippens can cruise from one of the mission airports to the other in about 10 minutes, if I counted right in the scenario. I say launch a couple armed for A/A just before the first transport takes off and station them near Nyingchi. If more than a couple bogies appear, we scramble more. After the transports perform their missions, a 2 ship of Grippens with Paveways goes the the bridge and bombs from high altitude, using one bomb at a time until the bridge is confirmed destroyed, since the likely threats seem to be limited to low altitude SAMs.

Yeah pretty much this is what I wrote but in more detail with a map

Patrocclesiastes
Apr 30, 2009


I think we would benefit from graphical representation of variable and nonvariable costs, along with profits, profit margins and some risk analysis.

But otherwise, looking at the current situation, I would think that having AWACS up in the sky loitering would give us the edge for possible intruders. We really dont want to use slow moving planes with dumb munitions on the bridge, especially if its contested air space, two gripens with paveways is a good solution, with one backing the other up in case something goes wrong.

For the escort, I would task two gripens with A2A loadout and have one on alert back at space.

Q_res
Oct 29, 2005

Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto.


Yeah I like simplefish's plan, with the minor caveat of having a second escort. As for A2A loadout, if we have to choose between 2 Meteors and 4 IRIS-Ts then I'd have one plane with each loadout. In a perfect world I'd want each plane carrying 2 of each but that wasn't an option iirc.

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!



Thanks, I thought about a second escort but we actively aren't expecting air interdiction. Still, I wouldn't argue too hard against one, unless it turned us from profit to loss or something drastic

Nothingtoseehere
Nov 11, 2010



Another escort will cost us 6K per hour: chump change in the grand scheme of things.

Unimpressed
Feb 13, 2013



I like simplefish's plan, it's got cool arrows and bullet points and everything else that makes plans great.

Now, enough with the contractions, let's get this baby out.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012



Grimey Drawer

simplefish posted:

Awesome, thanks for the clarification.

So the available loadouts are the ones you posted with ranges above, right?

Correct.

ManifunkDestiny posted:

How confident are we that the C17 will meet its departure time? Given your earlier description of their departing airport, sounds like a bit of a madhouse, and I'd hate for our escort to run out of fuel before MSF gets skyborne.

The Indian Air Force runs a tight operation and will launch right on time.

Crazycryodude posted:

Is this a pretty standard rate for PMC's? We're getting paid 6 million for like 30 minutes worth of work. I mean, I'm not complaining, but can we always expect this kind of return?

I actually think it's a low rate. We provide not only protection but a certain moral elasticity in regard to options. What the UN or Indian Air Force can't do directly, we can. In addition the total price to replace those transports is a shitload of money, add in two planes of Doctors Without Borders and whammo, it's priceless.

Our risk in the endeavor has to be tempered with the benefit. There's not a merc in the world who is going in against impossible odds. (Plus it wouldn't be fun) Though, once we get into the groove of this, things will get more dangerous. Making smart choices in regard to mission will insure asset life. The missions will not be impossible, though bad choices in regard to route or altitude can run from no losses to all Gripens down. Air combat is brutal and fast.

Stago Lego
Sep 3, 2011


I like simplefish's plan. Except that I would use the SK60's for the bridge strike. Use those frame's in a low threath enviroment while we stil can!

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!



The problem with the SK-60s is that they are exactly what MANPADS was designed to counter, and we expect to encounter those. They'll be worth their weight in gold though when we can send in the Gripens to knock out ADS first and we need to lay a shitload of HE on the target

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012



Grimey Drawer

Stago Lego posted:

I like simplefish's plan. Except that I would use the SK60's for the bridge strike. Use those frame's in a low threath enviroment while we stil can!

I added a "cheap" option to each package so we could get everyone who wants a plane into a plane, even if it's just your name on a pixel-plane. It's cool if you want to use, or not use, them, but I'd like everyone to have something to cheer for.

To be honest the interest is higher than I thought so I'll see what ole Jack can wrangle up in regards to some low dollar aircraft. Goons gotta fly!

Bacarruda
Mar 30, 2011

Mutiny!?! More like "reinterpreted orders"

Given that we don't know much about the threat environment and given that we want to make a good first impression, I think we should go for maximum effort on this mission. All Gripens, all day.

I'm skeptical that aerial rockets will be able to hit or destroy the bridge. We need precision weapons for that job. So, we send in two Gripens at about 10,000-15,000 feet and have them each drop a laser guided bomb on the bridge (with a extra bomb each that they can use).

This plan has a very high chance of success. It gives us good situational awareness. It lets us hammer our target with heavy firepower.



1. Launch two fighters and the AEW&C. The fighters fly a racetrack at 20,000-30,000 feet between the two airfields. They orbit at high altitude. The AEW&C flys a smaller racetrack about 200km further south. The AEW&C can vector the fighters onto targets if the transports or our strike aircraft are threatened.

2. Transports take off.

3. Once the C-17s take off and are 30 minutes into their flight, have the strike aircraft take off.

4. Strike aircraft hit bridge and RTB.

5. Transports land.

6. CAP and AEW&C land.

My plan involves us sortieing 5 aircraft in three flights.

"Strike 1"
Aircraft and Loadout
Two JAS 39 Gripen strike fighters, each with:
x2 IRIS-T short-range air-to-air missiles
x2 GBU-12D/B laser-guide bombs
x1 Litening III targeting pod

Mission
Primary: Bomb the bridge
Secondary: If fired on by ground forces, destroy enemy forces in vicinity of the bridge, prioritizing AAA and SAMs
Tertiary: Engage air targets to protect Eyeball and/or the transports

"High CAP"
Aircraft and Loadout
Two JAS 39 Gripen strike fighters, each with:
x4 IRIS-T short-range air-to-air missiles
x2 300-gal drop tanks

Mission
Primary: Protect the transport aircraft, protecting them from airborne threats
Secondary: Protect the strike aricraft
Tertiary: Protect the AEW&C aircraft

"Eyeball"
Aircraft
One Saab S100B AEW&C

Mission
Primary: Locate air targets and vector High CAP onto targets (and the transports away from them).

Bacarruda fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Apr 3, 2017

JcDent
May 13, 2013

Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!


Can CMANO simulate a rogue Gripen pilot spotting a TLA MANPAD section and going GUNS GUNS GUNS while ranting something about dead corgies and bootleg dog food*?

*Pilot is racist enough to not know the difference between Chinese and Tibetans.

CBJamo
Jul 15, 2012


I like Bacarruda's plan, with just a couple small changes. The AEW&C should orbit over our field. There's no reason to put it in any more risk than necessary, and it's radar easily sees the entire engagement area with a nice buffer. I'd also suggest a slight change in timing, it would be safer if the C-17s were at least on their way back before Strike 1 launches.

PS. Please add me to the pilot roster, call sign chucklefuck.

Cathode Raymond
Dec 30, 2015

My antenna is telling me that you're probably wrong about this.


Soiled Meat

JcDent posted:

Can CMANO simulate a rogue Gripen pilot spotting a TLA MANPAD section and going GUNS GUNS GUNS while ranting something about dead corgies and bootleg dog food*?

*Pilot is racist enough to not know the difference between Chinese and Tibetans.

Excuse you, but I am Guns Guns Guns, and I am not racist. However there is a non-zero chance that I hallucinate that any given civilian might be a threat to one or more corgies in which case I would take the appropriate action to prevent harm to corgie-kind. I would expect you to do the same.

Also everyone talking about profit margins, do keep in mind that we should be willing to reduce our margins or even eat a small loss on our very first mission if it means making a good impression and reducing the chance of an unexpected disaster.

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?




You know, you raise an excellent point. But do we want to have this reputation? I propose that we vote on whether or not we are as a group, a budget, affordable mid-market or luxury brand of PMC to help guide our overall strategy. This will help us direct spending, mission selection choices and room for error.

Crazycryodude
Aug 15, 2015

Lets get our X tons of Duranium back!

....Is that still a valid thing to jingoistically blow out of proportion?











We're a high-end PMC with a sterling reputation that you can trust to get the job done, and get it done right. Also the last people you'd expect to be running an eco-terror division under the table.

Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 15:32 on Apr 2, 2017

Stago Lego
Sep 3, 2011


Yooper posted:

I added a "cheap" option to each package so we could get everyone who wants a plane into a plane, even if it's just your name on a pixel-plane. It's cool if you want to use, or not use, them, but I'd like everyone to have something to cheer for.

To be honest the interest is higher than I thought so I'll see what ole Jack can wrangle up in regards to some low dollar aircraft. Goons gotta fly!

I was hoping this would be the case.

Anyway because of this and because I do not expect MANPADS to be that effective against high and fast planes, I think we should give the SK60's a change.

As for our imago I think affordable mid market might be the most interesting.

JcDent
May 13, 2013

Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!


Affordable mid market might mean Mercenaries and planes bombing technicals to dirt in Bumfuck, Africa. Those assholes would never expect a Gripen to paste anything that threatens our SK60s!

Nothingtoseehere
Nov 11, 2010



We are a High-end PMC. Means we can be the enemy in more modern day action games.

Also Plan Barrucuda is good, just make sure our strike craft launch once we're doing the southbound escort, not the northbound, in case of potential retaliation.

Nothingtoseehere fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Apr 2, 2017

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



Yooper posted:

I added a "cheap" option to each package so we could get everyone who wants a plane into a plane, even if it's just your name on a pixel-plane. It's cool if you want to use, or not use, them, but I'd like everyone to have something to cheer for.

To be honest the interest is higher than I thought so I'll see what ole Jack can wrangle up in regards to some low dollar aircraft. Goons gotta fly!

Is there a list of aircraft available with prices next to them from CMANO?

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012



Grimey Drawer


This is great for how you guys can explain a mission idea to me. I've got a Mission Post coming later on to show you the tools I have at my disposal to arrange missions.


JcDent posted:

Can CMANO simulate a rogue Gripen pilot spotting a TLA MANPAD section and going GUNS GUNS GUNS while ranting something about dead corgies and bootleg dog food*?

*Pilot is racist enough to not know the difference between Chinese and Tibetans.

I can do manual attacks with the planes as long as it has the weapons. Or a generic AsuW Ground Patrol will kill anything it finds in a zone.


chitoryu12 posted:

Is there a list of aircraft available with prices next to them from CMANO?

Nope! Just a lot of Googling on my part. There is a surprising amount of information online in regards to prices and operating expenses, at least for semi modern stuff. If you want to fly a 1950's era Angolan cardboard fighter plane then I might have to guess a bit. For that matter if you find pricing info for something you're interested in just post it. It can't be any worse than Panther V. Sherman chat.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012



Grimey Drawer



CMANO has a ton of options for us to specify missions. Sometimes when you know exactly what you want you can set a very specific path. Other times you might want something more flexible. The engine allows for both.

  • Boundary Area Missions
  • Target List Missions
  • Support Missions
  • Manual Path and Control

Boundary Area Missions



You define a set of boundary points and then attach it to a mission. Useful for covering an area with an AAW (anti air) patrol, asw (anti-sub) patrol, or even AsuW (anti-surface)patrol. The reference points can be fixed or set relative to a moving object like another plane or boat.



We have a variety of mission types. Strike and Patrol is what it sounds like. Support is a line or path to be followed by AWACS or fuelers. Note you can set a support mission then create a AAW patrol around the tankers using a relative reference point. Ferry moves units from one airport to another.



Here is our choices for strike missions. A strike mission requires a target list. We can attach escorts to a strike mission.



The patrol offers a bit more. We need to be careful just setting a patrol without boundaries as planes can do dumb things like follow a contact through a line of SAM's. These can be useful for covering an area and killing stuff there. Escorts can be assigned where applicable.



The support mission has no options here. If it's a tanker it just hangs out. Awacs do the same. Notice we can define a start and end time for missions. This is helpful to stagger operations. If you set missions too closely everyone will try to launch at once and gently caress up your time schedule.



This is the meat of the mission editor. You can define tons of variables ranging from altitude at the patrol zone, speed, sensors, whether they'll leave the area, or whether they use active sensors. If in doubt I'll what seems sensible.

Disclaimer : I'm not a air combat expert. So if I set a patrol height that is dumb, please let me know. Nothing in the game will tell me otherwise.



Our rules of engagement are wide and varied. This also covers how to handle low fuel, and what to do when you run out of bombs (but not bullets).



We also set our emissions here. Want radar off? This is the spot.



This is some reference points that are set relative to a Barracks. Kind of a lame example as the barracks probably won't move. But you get the idea.



IMPORTANT NO NAVIGATION ZONE

We can tell the planes where not to go. We can set a zone and the aircraft won't go there. Very important in the case of SAM's or such. Or maybe we have a mission zone to avoid. If we don't set this our planes may chase after a high flying seagull, right over a dozen high end SAM systems.



EXCLUSION ZONES

This is an exclusion zone. Also very important. We won't know what poo poo is until our sensors can resolve it. But we'll probably know it's something because the radar will pick it up. Setting this line acts as a tripwire. Anything that crosses it can be marked as hostile (or whatever) and our poo poo will kill it.



Finally we have manual paths. I can launch a plane, or group, and tell them exactly where to go, how fast, at what altitude, using a certain EMCON, with certain rules. The auto patrol can sometimes do dumb things so I like to use a combination of the two. Manual path to follow the route I like then I'll let them do patrol things once they get there.

Bacarudda's and Simplefish's posts on mission specifics are great and exactly what I'm looking for to define the missions. I'll give it a bit more time for everyone to hash out ideas and then see what sort of mission is decided upon.

At that point I'll set the paths and zones, give you guys a screenshot of it, then if approved I'll run it!

Bacarruda
Mar 30, 2011

Mutiny!?! More like "reinterpreted orders"

CBJamo posted:

I like Bacarruda's plan, with just a couple small changes. The AEW&C should orbit over our field. There's no reason to put it in any more risk than necessary, and it's radar easily sees the entire engagement area with a nice buffer. I'd also suggest a slight change in timing, it would be safer if the C-17s were at least on their way back before Strike 1 launches.

PS. Please add me to the pilot roster, call sign chucklefuck.

Those changes work for me.

JcDent posted:

Can CMANO simulate a rogue Gripen pilot spotting a TLA MANPAD section and going GUNS GUNS GUNS while ranting something about dead corgies and bootleg dog food*?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQAmvKMGUko

Crazycryodude
Aug 15, 2015

Lets get our X tons of Duranium back!

....Is that still a valid thing to jingoistically blow out of proportion?











Endorsing Bacarruda's plan.

Also, I feel like we're gonna hear a lot of Dos Gringos in this thread

Cathode Raymond
Dec 30, 2015

My antenna is telling me that you're probably wrong about this.


Soiled Meat

Crazycryodude posted:

Endorsing Bacarruda's plan.

Tythas
Oct 3, 2013

Never felt at home in reality
Always hiding behind avatars




Crazycryodude posted:

Endorsing Bacarruda's plan.

LostCosmonaut
Feb 15, 2014



Crazycryodude posted:

Endorsing Bacarruda's plan.

not an emptyquote

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012



Grimey Drawer



We have two mission plans put forth so far.

1. Operation simplefish

2. Operation Bacarudda

Please choose one item from the seafood bar.

Tythas
Oct 3, 2013

Never felt at home in reality
Always hiding behind avatars




Voting Operation Baracudda

Dandywalken
Feb 11, 2014

I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation. I actually named my daughter after the Pink ranger and will provide proof if challenged.


Tythas posted:

Voting Operation Baracudda

Same.

Good Dumplings
Mar 29, 2011

Excuse my worthless shitposting because all I can ever hope to accomplish in life is to rot away the braincells of strangers on the internet with my irredeemable retardation.


I can't pronounce Bacarudda

CirclMastr
Jul 4, 2010



It's time for Plan Bacarudda

Davin Valkri
Apr 8, 2011

Maybe you're weighing the moral pros and cons but let me assure you that OH MY GOD
SHOOT ME IN THE GODDAMNED FACE
WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?!


Four is better than three, so Plan Bacarudda for me. I volunteer to be one of the bridge strike crew!

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?




I too volunteer to be bridge strike crew on Plan Bacarudda. However I also recommend our rules of engagement prevent us from firing without full positive visual ID, no BVR poo poo here.

Davin Valkri
Apr 8, 2011

Maybe you're weighing the moral pros and cons but let me assure you that OH MY GOD
SHOOT ME IN THE GODDAMNED FACE
WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?!


HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:

I too volunteer to be bridge strike crew on Plan Bacarudda. However I also recommend our rules of engagement prevent us from firing without full positive visual ID, no BVR poo poo here.

We're going up with IRIS-Ts, Herp-derp. They're IR missiles, so they're more or less WVR by default.

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?




I knew that. I was testing you.

Jimmy4400nav
Apr 1, 2011

Ambassador to Moonlandia


I support Plan Bacarudda

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Slaan
Mar 16, 2009

I GAIN POWER FROM EATING PEOPLE, JUST ASSUME I'M ALWAYS VOTING TO EAT PEOPLE



Nap Ghost

Both have way too many aircraft up for this simple mission, but Plan Barracuda is the better of the two I guess.

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