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surf rock
Aug 12, 2007



AlternateNu posted:

I think a lot of people (somewhat ironically) took at face value that Homura's feelings for Madoka were good and just because they were the main characters and "it can't be wrong to love someone, right?" Except by that point in Homura's cycles, it pretty clearly mutated into an unhealthy obsession. Madoka wasn't a person anymore. She was a goal, and by "sacrificing" herself, Madoka snatched Homura's prize away from her. IMO, Rebellion was a logical extension of those feelings. Without Madoka being there as something she could continue to latch onto, Homura just spiraled into what you see at the end. And fittingly (or not), the time looping that gave Madoka the power to break universal laws to ascend also ensured Homura was able to break them right back. Except, she never actually grew up or healed from her ordeal. It would've been different if she had her memory wiped along with the rest of the universe, but well...

I'm just sad we're probably never going to get an animated continuation because I would love to see how the revived characters deal with the clusterfuck she created.

Reading this and sitting on it a little more, I think that's a fair and plausible reading of her character in the show, and that it's not insane where the movie went with her. But I don't think it's the only reasonable interpretation, and it wasn't mine. The show ends with her talking about fighting to protect Madoka's dream, seemingly having made peace with what happened. Trying to continue on someone's legacy is a super normal thing to do when you lose someone you love, so it made sense for that to be her reaction. Maybe the writer was forced to add that rather than leave her finale more open-ended since it was the finale, but that's the show we got and it's all I can go off as a viewer as to where her character's headspace was at.

I would feel much better about the movie if it wasn't the end of the story, but... apparently it is? So, even if it's a reasonable character beat for Homura, ending the story there is a real downer. Madoka has been pulled from happy godhood and is suffering an epic identity crisis with universes and poo poo appearing, Homura has gone insane and is already talking about Madoka becoming her enemy before possibly committing suicide, Sayaka is also furious about what happened before getting memory-wiped (indicating that she wasn't upset about how her life had turned out before). If this was the launching point for more story, that would be rough but a potentially amazing setup. But that's it. My concern with the show when I started understanding how it was subversive was that it was just going to be misery porn, and I was so thankful that the show was more than that. But that's what the last twist felt like to me.

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Larryb
Oct 5, 2010



Apparently there was going to be another Madoka movie but it got shelved a long while back and probably isnít coming out at this point.

There is Magia Record though which is decent but thatís less of a sequel and more of an alternate universe that features some old characters and concepts along with several brand new ones.

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

"すやぁ~じゃなくて!"



surf rock posted:

Reading this and sitting on it a little more, I think that's a fair and plausible reading of her character in the show, and that it's not insane where the movie went with her. But I don't think it's the only reasonable interpretation, and it wasn't mine. The show ends with her talking about fighting to protect Madoka's dream, seemingly having made peace with what happened. Trying to continue on someone's legacy is a super normal thing to do when you lose someone you love, so it made sense for that to be her reaction. Maybe the writer was forced to add that rather than leave her finale more open-ended since it was the finale, but that's the show we got and it's all I can go off as a viewer as to where her character's headspace was at.

I would feel much better about the movie if it wasn't the end of the story, but... apparently it is? So, even if it's a reasonable character beat for Homura, ending the story there is a real downer. Madoka has been pulled from happy godhood and is suffering an epic identity crisis with universes and poo poo appearing, Homura has gone insane and is already talking about Madoka becoming her enemy before possibly committing suicide, Sayaka is also furious about what happened before getting memory-wiped (indicating that she wasn't upset about how her life had turned out before). If this was the launching point for more story, that would be rough but a potentially amazing setup. But that's it. My concern with the show when I started understanding how it was subversive was that it was just going to be misery porn, and I was so thankful that the show was more than that. But that's what the last twist felt like to me.


And this is why Rebellion is considered one of the most divisive continuations ever for an anime series.

Motto
Aug 3, 2013



Aoki Ume's art owns.

SatoshiMiwa
May 6, 2007



The true final Madoka movie has the girls moving into Hidamari apartments

ConanThe3rd
Mar 27, 2009


The True Madoka sequel is every series Aoi Yuki stars in.
And it's also why Symphogear is the best Madoka series as Hibiki (ne; Punch Madoka) rejects both God and Divinity largely by singing her throat out whilst punching the poo poo out of the two concepts .

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


rebellion's ending is way happier than the tv series' and im not kidding, and it absolutely doesnt need to be followed up on

like what would a sequel be? urobuchi joked about them flying to kyubey's planet to beat up the incubators and a bunch of people thought he was serious and desperately want that, and i just cant parse that desire at all. how would that be good

PhysicsFrenzy
May 30, 2011

cats can have little a sunglasses, as a treat

It's been a while since I watched Rebellion, but even if I can get on board with it being the logical conclusion to Homura's obsession (I'm not a fan of the turn for reasons already given, but I can appreciate that it can work and isn't nonsense) I remember feeling like it didn't do Madoka herself justice, well before the ending. There was some scene in a park that just felt so thoroughly out of character to me that everything that came after was a hard sell.

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

"すやぁ~じゃなくて!"



If nothing else, Rebellion gave us a whole lot of new footage to help make Madoka one of the most immanently AMV-able anime ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBeEt7HMpzc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yAjcM88Bdc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcAVh8hN-j4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnSaBI1U_24

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010



Off the subject, apparently Tokyo Mew Mew is getting a remake of sorts:

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2021-02-02/tokyo-mew-mew-new-anime-announces-5-main-cast-members/.169068

Speaking of which, is the original series any good?

Elephant Parade
Jan 20, 2018



(rebellion spoilers ahead)

The lyrics and visuals of Rebellion's ED give us a look into what Homura's world looks like in the long term, so I think it's deeply important context if we're going to talk about the ending:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgiNwzfNGcc

Contrary to the rest of the ending, the ED is actually pretty uplifting. Beyond the soft tone, you have verses like

quote:

Let us play some more until we are called
Let us repeat our days like a flower reborn
which suggest that Homura's world is a space where, for the first time in an eternity, Madoka and the rest can just have fun and chill out. Obviously it isn't a perfect worldóa few bits of the song get at the issue of whether Homura has effectively just frozen everyone in place... but then another lyric talks about "flying towards the true end", which goes against that. And at the end of the animation, Madoka and Homura join hands and run into the distance. Taking the ED into account, Rebellion's ending lands on the hopeful side of melancholy, at least for me.

surf rock posted:

Reading this and sitting on it a little more, I think that's a fair and plausible reading of her character in the show, and that it's not insane where the movie went with her. But I don't think it's the only reasonable interpretation, and it wasn't mine. The show ends with her talking about fighting to protect Madoka's dream, seemingly having made peace with what happened. Trying to continue on someone's legacy is a super normal thing to do when you lose someone you love, so it made sense for that to be her reaction. Maybe the writer was forced to add that rather than leave her finale more open-ended since it was the finale, but that's the show we got and it's all I can go off as a viewer as to where her character's headspace was at.

I would feel much better about the movie if it wasn't the end of the story, but... apparently it is? So, even if it's a reasonable character beat for Homura, ending the story there is a real downer. Madoka has been pulled from happy godhood and is suffering an epic identity crisis with universes and poo poo appearing, Homura has gone insane and is already talking about Madoka becoming her enemy before possibly committing suicide, Sayaka is also furious about what happened before getting memory-wiped (indicating that she wasn't upset about how her life had turned out before). If this was the launching point for more story, that would be rough but a potentially amazing setup. But that's it. My concern with the show when I started understanding how it was subversive was that it was just going to be misery porn, and I was so thankful that the show was more than that. But that's what the last twist felt like to me.

Madoka's godhood isn't exactly happy, going by her character song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__q9fsZa5vk

quote:

Saying "see you later", whilst waving my hand
Forcing a smile, yet I'm feeling lonely
She's obviously willing to become a god if that's what it takes to break the cycle of tragedy, but she isn't actually happy, just pretending to be. And then as the song describes all these mundanities,

quote:

People climb up the pedestrian bridge whilst carrying their bicycles
Someone gossiping at the convenience store
Sounds of faraway horns at the crossing traffic lights
and the sounds of strangers laughing together
you get the sense that she really, really misses all these things she's no longer a part ofóshe misses being human. So Madoka really might be happier as a (fake) human than as a goddess, just as Homura believes.

Dexanth
Dec 4, 2003

The last thing an ice cream cone ever sees


^^ I adore everything I have learned from this post and it honestly fits with what I'm about to spill.

Aurora posted:

rebellion rules

100% top tier opinion here, rebellion is amazing

surf rock posted:

I would feel much better about the movie if it wasn't the end of the story, but... apparently it is? So, even if it's a reasonable character beat for Homura, ending the story there is a real downer. Madoka has been pulled from happy godhood and is suffering an epic identity crisis with universes and poo poo appearing, Homura has gone insane and is already talking about Madoka becoming her enemy before possibly committing suicide, Sayaka is also furious about what happened before getting memory-wiped (indicating that she wasn't upset about how her life had turned out before). If this was the launching point for more story, that would be rough but a potentially amazing setup. But that's it. My concern with the show when I started understanding how it was subversive was that it was just going to be misery porn, and I was so thankful that the show was more than that. But that's what the last twist felt like to me.[/spoiler]

Endorph posted:

rebellion's ending is way happier than the tv series' and im not kidding, and it absolutely doesnt need to be followed up on

like what would a sequel be? urobuchi joked about them flying to kyubey's planet to beat up the incubators and a bunch of people thought he was serious and desperately want that, and i just cant parse that desire at all. how would that be good

So, like...throwing this all in spoilers cause I will do a lot of speculation here. Basically I love the worldbuilding in Madoka and so have spent a stupid amount of time thinking about 'what seems likely to happen next?' post Rebellion.

Rebellion/Series Only Spoilers : There's a few things you can pull from the ending and basically everything we know about Homura until now. One, she has insanely high willpower and survival instincts; no matter what she does, nobody else ever survives the loops. Two, she doesn't give a single poo poo about Kyuubey; she doesn't really hate him, because she gets how...well, alien they are. But she sure as gently caress hates what they are willing to unleash. Three, she doesn't think that it's fair that after everything, all of her suffering to save Madoka...she saves her without saving her; Madoka is lost to the world and denied the chance to simply -live- which is what Homura's wish was about.

Then Rebellion happens. Kyuubey literally have captured her & crafted a Homura torture-scape to use her as bait. This only happens because Homura told Kyuubey about Witches and thus made them realize that her story was true and they could bring Witches back. This is arguably one time Kyuubey act sort human - they get greedy and chase 'more efficient' rather than 'stable but inefficient'. Point is, by the time Madoka & co teleport in, Homura is already part-witchy.

So like, girl's endured a shitton of psychological trauma - literal years worth of seeing her best friend die or suffer a fate worse than death, over and over again - and then finds out oh hey, thanks to her big mouth Kyuubey is using her as bait in an effort to capture Madoka and undo everything Madoka cares about. So, you know, Homura lets herself break, goes Homulily, magical things happen and we get to THAT scene.

Everyone focuses on how it's bad/wrong that Homura did it, and like, yes, that is true. But...the thing is, at this point Kyuubey now know Madoka exists. They are an alien morality that has clearly shown they care only about the increased efficiency - if witches are possible they want witches because they are paperclip optimizers in a way. They aren't going to stop trying to capture her, they're going to do to every magical girl they can what they just did to Homura. Homura is smart enough to see all of this, and so it all hinges on 'Would Kyuubey ever be able to capture Madoka, or can she keep thwarting them literally forever, because if they win once its all over'.

If you believe Madoka will never lose, what Homura does is just bad. If you believe Kyuubey /can/ win, then they will eventually win, and so what Homura does is necessary, because when she rewrites the universe it's heavily implied she uses Kyuubey as the dump for all that negative emotional energy instead of having witches. Sayaka asks her if she's going to destroy the universe, and she says something like 'Maybe, after all the Wraiths are gone'...but the whole point of Wraiths is to serve as the replacement for Witches to allow the energy harvesting to continue so the universe doesn't die. So you can arguably read that as Homura telling Sayaka 'Haha, hell no I'm not' just in a...Homura way of doing it.

Homura's universe has one goal : To allow Madoka to live a normal life. That's really it; and while I suppose it's possible she holds them in stasis forever, I suspect her actual goal is, well...let them grow up and just live. Eventually, they grow old, she lets Madoka remember everything and then they become immortal Goddess-Lesbians keeping the universe safe together.


After this point I'm speculating about post-rebellion stuff that involves spoilers from the Madoka Concept Movie from back at Madogatari 2015. So, now we go into 'What comes next?' And this is where the concept movie heavily hints in what would come next, if they ever do Madoka Movie 4 - There's a pair of lines that mean roughly 'These days, there are a lot of cats' 'There's a lot of dead ones as well'. It's a small leap to go 'Cats / Dead Cats' = Kyuubey. And, well, it would make sense - if in Homuverse she is dumping all that witch energy into Kyuubey...she's trying to dump a river into a reservoir. Eventually the reservoir will fill up and overflow.

So Homura's universe is probably unstable, because whereas Madoka as the Law of Cycles is able to handle infinite despair just fine, Kyuubey can't. Which is going to lead to Homuverse breaking down, and Madoka 4 would be about the breakdown of it. If it's meant to be the final series-ender, I totally headcanon it as Homura accepting Madoka must re-ascend, but then going with her, willingly allowing herself to be erased from the universe as well so that Madoka doesn't have to be alone.


But like, also, assuming Urobochi's involved, I readily recognize it could go absolutely anywhere.

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010



I forget, was/is Urobochi involved with the Magia Record anime at all?

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

"すやぁ~じゃなくて!"



Larryb posted:

I forget, was/is Urobochi involved with the Magia Record anime at all?

Technically the whole Magica Quartet (including Urobochi) were involved in the development of the moba. But the anime was written and directed by gekidan INU CURRY's Doroinu (a.k.a. Anai Yousuke).

Omnicrom
Aug 3, 2007
Snorlax Afficionado




Dexanth posted:

If it's meant to be the final series-ender, I totally headcanon it as Homura accepting Madoka must re-ascend, but then going with her, willingly allowing herself to be erased from the universe as well so that Madoka doesn't have to be alone.

I'm glad I'm not the only person who got to an ending like that from Rebellion.

My personal headcanon has always been that the final shot of the series took place AFTER Rebellion. Homura wielding a witch-like power standing with Madoka against the Wraiths. Devil and God standing united to keep the world turning.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Larryb posted:

I forget, was/is Urobochi involved with the Magia Record anime at all?

urobuchi was not involved with the anime at all. his involvement with the mobage is minimal, though he was involved. iirc he's stated outright that he has no desire to revisit madoka himself so hes happy to let other people do stuff with it?

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010



Off the subject, apparently both Grace and Dream are getting a movie exclusive form in the upcoming Healin Good film (on top of the exclusive form Nodoka was already confirmed to be getting in said movie):





Larryb fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Feb 4, 2021

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010



And if anyone missed it the first Tropical Rouge trailer is out:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=GoMZuz-0hAY

Dexanth
Dec 4, 2003

The last thing an ice cream cone ever sees


Omnicrom posted:

I'm glad I'm not the only person who got to an ending like that from Rebellion.

My personal headcanon has always been that the final shot of the series took place AFTER Rebellion. Homura wielding a witch-like power standing with Madoka against the Wraiths. Devil and God standing united to keep the world turning.


The series did seem to be going for kind of a theme of like...'Growing up means leaving childhood behind' in a way, so yea, it ending with both of them 'growing up' like that just feels fitting.

blossommirage
Nov 7, 2012



Looks cute!! Don't really get Smile vibes from that trailer, but it'll probably be fun.

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010



blossommirage posted:

Looks cute!! Don't really get Smile vibes from that trailer, but it'll probably be fun.

Maybe not full Smile but it definitely feels a bit more lighthearted to me (which is fine given everything last year). I already like Laura and she hasnít even said a word yet (I donít know if trailer shots ever wind up getting cut but that scene of her popping out of the sewer better be in the first episode)

Ascot Crab and Pineapple Tree Monster look fun as well, Iím guessing the rest of the villains will be similarly aquatic themed (the main antagonist is apparently a literal sea witch after all).

Larryb fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Feb 5, 2021

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010



Speaking of trailers, hereís a new one for the Healin Good movie:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=PSyIWg4NET8

Any idea who the second voice in the Tropical Rouge part of the trailer beside Manatsu is?

Larryb fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Feb 5, 2021

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010



As for the latest Healin Good: That was a wild episode. Queen Teatine saved Latte, created a barrier around the town to protect it from the King infecting the world, and then we got a great fight of one on four with Shindoine. It took two finishers to do her in, but it ended with Asumi taking a bit of infection into herself so she could get close to the king. In effect, she became a vaccine.

At this rate, I wonder if weíre going to wind up with a season where there are no survivors among the villain cast for the first time in a long while.

Also, another Tropical Rouge preview:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=3GlB2sjzBlo

Larryb fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Feb 7, 2021

Justin_Brett
Oct 23, 2012

GAMERDOME put down LOSER

That double tap they gave her was completely savage. I approve!

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010



drat, between Nodoka physically and verbally beating Daruizen into submission last week and the savage double tapping of Shindoine this time around (not to mention Asumi obliterating Batetemoda back during her debut), these girls might be one of the most hardcore teams weíve had in a while. I approve

The writers definitely seem to be bringing their A game to this final arc, hope it keeps up for the remaining episodes.

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010



Also if some early scans of the Tropical Rouge manga are to be taken at face value it seems like Laura plans to use the Precure as a stepping stone in her bid to become queen, which is an interesting angle for a mentor character to take if nothing else.

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010



From a recent staff interview in Animage Magazine we have a few interesting tidbits regarding Healin Good:

-The hiatus really did impact the production, mostly concerning Hinata's development.

-Everything that happened in episode 42 regarding Nodoka and Daruizen was planned from the start



Larryb fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Feb 10, 2021

surf rock
Aug 12, 2007



I don't know if Kill la Kill counts as magical girl anime, but there are transformation sequences so I feel like it does at least a little bit. Anyway, the recommendation thread told me not to bother watching it and they were right to do so, it's very ehhhh compared to the classics I've been churning through otherwise. But it does have one killer feature: Madoka's voice actor absolutely crushing a very strange role. It's maybe the only redeeming feature of the show in my opinion, but it's been enough to pull me through five episodes.

PhysicsFrenzy
May 30, 2011

cats can have little a sunglasses, as a treat

surf rock posted:

I don't know if Kill la Kill counts as magical girl anime, but there are transformation sequences so I feel like it does at least a little bit. Anyway, the recommendation thread told me not to bother watching it and they were right to do so, it's very ehhhh compared to the classics I've been churning through otherwise. But it does have one killer feature: Madoka's voice actor absolutely crushing a very strange role. It's maybe the only redeeming feature of the show in my opinion, but it's been enough to pull me through five episodes.

Kill la Kill picked up for me around episode 6, so hopefully it's a little more enjoyable for you going forward!

Yuuki Aoi is amazing in pretty much everything she does. Her range is incredible.

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010



PhysicsFrenzy posted:

Kill la Kill picked up for me around episode 6, so hopefully it's a little more enjoyable for you going forward!

Yuuki Aoi is amazing in pretty much everything she does. Her range is incredible.

Agreed, sheís up there with MAO and Megumi Hayashibara as far as my favorite Japanese actresses go (though her role in My Hero Academia is kind of a waste of her talents in my opinion since her character has minimal importance to the plot but she still does her best)

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo_JTf5D6WM

i love aoi yuuki in fate/grand order

surf rock
Aug 12, 2007



Oh, sorry, this is awkward; I was referring to the English dub voice actor, Christine Marie Cabanos. I thought that Madoka was kind of a blank-slate character, but hearing the same voice actor play someone with a Looney Tunes level of zaniness like Mako Mankanshoku has been a delight.

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010



Off the subject, I heard there was an earthquake in Japan today (or at least recently). Out of curiosity, how bad was it and will any Toei productions (or those of other companies for that matter) be affected at all by it?

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Larryb posted:

Off the subject, I heard there was an earthquake in Japan today (or at least recently). Out of curiosity, how bad was it and will any Toei productions (or those of other companies for that matter) be affected at all by it?
it was 7.3, so a pretty standard one. japan tends to get one or two like it a year and they slow down daily life for a few days and a few individuals break some expensive plates or something but there's usually no, or few, reported fatalities. It's a noteworthy occurrence but I don't think toei should be affected.

Endorph fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Feb 13, 2021

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010



Endorph posted:

it was 7.3, so a pretty standard one. japan tends to get one or two like it a year and they slow down daily life for a few days and a few individuals break some expensive plates or something but there's usually no, or few, reported fatalities. It's a noteworthy occurrence but I don't think toei should be affected.

Gotcha, and from what I hear it was pretty far from Tokyo anyway and there was no tsunami

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010



Anyway, on to the penultimate Healin Good:

That was a pretty good finale. Went about how you'd expect, but the music and animation on the final fight was fantastic. Looks like the town figured out their identities in the end, and the animals and Asumi had to return to the Healing Garden, at least for the time being. Despite the hiatus, Healin' Good ultimately turned out pretty good overall. Though we still have one more episode left to go.

SatoshiMiwa
May 6, 2007



Show was mostly okay but the fact it dodged the Daruizen land mine and had Nodoka call out his bull poo poo pulled it to the good side I think.

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010



Thereís still one more episode left and the show was a bit hit or miss overall in my opinion but it definitely pulled itself together by the end (and yeah, Iím glad they didnít even attempt to give Daruizen some kind of last minute redemption). A pity most of Hinataís development reportedly wound up getting cut due to the hiatus though.

Itís also a nice change of pace that this is the first series in a while to flat out dispose of its entire villain cast.

Tropical Rouge is looking good as well so far so Iím definitely looking forward to that.

Julias
Jun 24, 2012



It was a very middle of the road season for me. Definitely a step up from how bland Star Twinkle was, but I didn't care for the mascot characters or the extra precure this season, and yeah the hiatus likely affected the original plans for the season in ways we may never know. But I'm very much looking forward to the new season, and hope it'll be rather funny and gorgeous.

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Larryb
Oct 5, 2010



Julias posted:

It was a very middle of the road season for me. Definitely a step up from how bland Star Twinkle was, but I didn't care for the mascot characters or the extra precure this season, and yeah the hiatus likely affected the original plans for the season in ways we may never know. But I'm very much looking forward to the new season, and hope it'll be rather funny and gorgeous.

From the trailers so far it looks like both of those are true (which is fine by me, we could use something light after everything last year).

As for Healin Good, I posted some scans of a recent staff interview a little bit above that talk about how the hiatus affected the series (mostly Hinata lost a couple focus episodes and they decided because of said hiatus that it wasnít worth redeeming the Byogens at all). Not sure why those episodes were worth cutting and a LITERAL CLIPSHOW wasnít but whatever.

Nodokaís final decision regarding Daruizen in episode 42 was apparently planned from the start though (which is good to hear).

But yeah, while itís probably not going to be one of my favorites the show had its moments and I liked a lot of the characters. It also at least had a decent ending in my opinion (unless they somehow screw it up in the epilogue next week but Iím giving them the benefit of the doubt at the moment).

That aside, I kind of liked how they handled the identity reveal (with the whole town just pretending not to know while still giving them special treatment)

Larryb fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Feb 14, 2021

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