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Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!

Eh, so long the console generations don't last like 10 years again and PC gaming is the victim again by things being held back due to multiplatform poo poo. I mean, on the CPU front, things like IPC improvements have been slowing down for a while now, still current quadcores beat the consoles silly, and trend is going towards more than four cores, via Ryzen and also Intel's Coffee Lake. On the GPU side, dies are getting bigger and bigger and continue bring significant improvements due to easy parallelization.

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NewFatMike
Jun 11, 2015



If Raven Ridge can deliver 1080p60+Freesync at medium settings for current AAA titles, I'll be happy as a clam. Medium now is a lot nicer than it used to be, and that'll probably be really good for getting more folks on PC. What would that run, like $300 with a monitor and an HDD?

Destiny 2 as a demo, I really want to get my friends on PC for it because it'll support 21:9, but everyone wants to play it on the PS4 they already have. It makes me sad.

fishmech
Jul 16, 2006

by VideoGames


Salad Prong

eames posted:

If Destiny 2 is any indication then consoles are becoming CPU bottlenecked which would explain why the game is locked to 30 fps at any resolution (correct me if I'm wrong).
Guess that's what happens when you bump up the GPU performance and neglect the CPU during the mid-cycle refreshes. Scorpio is also based on Jaguar with a clockspeed bump so same story there.
We'll have to wait for Zen APUs to see another meaningful improvement. (PS5 next year?)


The good thing to come out of this for the PC is that multithreading will be more important than ever.

The Scorpio project has a major increase in GPU compute units as well as their speed, unlike the Ps4 Pro that mainly upclocked the CPU/GPU and precisely doubled the GPU compute units.

eames
May 9, 2009



fishmech posted:

The Scorpio project has a major increase in GPU compute units as well as their speed, unlike the Ps4 Pro that mainly upclocked the CPU/GPU and precisely doubled the GPU compute units.

Yes, that's what I wrote. Destiny 2 info from the devs suggests that GPU focused improvements don't cut it anymore.
PS4 Pro has eight Jaguar cores at 2.1 Ghz, Scorpio will have eight Jaguar cores at ~2.3 Ghz.

The closest benchmark result for a console Jaguar CPU I could find is this:

http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compar...R3/3922vsm10020

The lowly quadcore Ryzen 5 1400 is roughly three times as fast single threaded and twice as fast in multithreaded applications compared to the octocore console CPUs (the Athlon 5350 is a 2.1 Ghz quadcore and I'm assuming perfect 2x scaling for this example).
You can compare multicore results to an overclocked 1800X if you need a laugh. it is 5x the performance of console CPUs

Console CPUs are terrible but it didn't matter until they lifted the GPU bottleneck with this useless VR-driven "almost-4K" mid-cycle refresh, as SwissArmyDruid mentioned.

eames fucked around with this message at 18:05 on May 21, 2017

VostokProgram
Feb 20, 2014



Are Jaguar cores based on bulldozer? Everyone thinks that consoles have "8" cores, but if they're actually terrible CMT cores then a quad core ryzen would an upgrade. But I'm sure most people would be confused about why the core count "downgraded"

repiv
Aug 13, 2009



VostokProgram posted:

Are Jaguar cores based on bulldozer? Everyone thinks that consoles have "8" cores, but if they're actually terrible CMT cores then a quad core ryzen would an upgrade. But I'm sure most people would be confused about why the core count "downgraded"

Nah, Jaguar is a separate architecture with "real" cores. They're just not very fast cores.

eames
May 9, 2009



speaking of real cores, a potential whitehaven benchmark just surfaced



VostokProgram posted:

Are Jaguar cores based on bulldozer? Everyone thinks that consoles have "8" cores, but if they're actually terrible CMT cores then a quad core ryzen would an upgrade. But I'm sure most people would be confused about why the core count "downgraded"

if we're talking pure CPU performance then a dual core 3.4 Ghz Ryzen with HT would be an upgrade over the PS4 Pro

eames fucked around with this message at 18:08 on May 21, 2017

Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!

Interesting. If the frequencies shown there is what the CPU ran at, instead of nominal while they were actually turboing, bumping the Whitehaven to 4GHz would mean near perfect linear scaling. Which seems doubtful, unless they've improved the interconnect speeds. Which means that the 8C's handicap makes the difference for the scaling to appear linear.

So anyway, are there any significant teething issues with Ryzen, that haven't been fixed yet with BIOS updates?

Arzachel
May 12, 2012


NewFatMike posted:

If Raven Ridge can deliver 1080p60+Freesync at medium settings for current AAA titles, I'll be happy as a clam. Medium now is a lot nicer than it used to be, and that'll probably be really good for getting more folks on PC. What would that run, like $300 with a monitor and an HDD?

Pitcairn performance would be nice, but even with DDR4 and TBR I don't think they'll get rid of the memory bottleneck entirely.

repiv
Aug 13, 2009



eames posted:

speaking of real cores, a potential whitehaven benchmark just surfaced

https://videocardz.com/69717/threadrippers-fake-score

SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



Combat Pretzel posted:

Interesting. If the frequencies shown there is what the CPU ran at, instead of nominal while they were actually turboing, bumping the Whitehaven to 4GHz would mean near perfect linear scaling. Which seems doubtful, unless they've improved the interconnect speeds. Which means that the 8C's handicap makes the difference for the scaling to appear linear.

So anyway, are there any significant teething issues with Ryzen, that haven't been fixed yet with BIOS updates?

One mainstream problem, and one fringe problem:

The mainstream: Memory timings continue to be an issue. Because of how the chip architecture is, Ryzen responds very well to higher-clocked RAM. However, as time as gone on, AMD has released firmware updates to the motherboard manufacturers that have improved them over time. There is a major AGESA update expected by the end of this month that will greatly improve memory compatibility. For best results, though, you are generally still looking at memory that uses Samsung B-die, and only two of the largest sticks that you can find.

The fringe: IOMMU groupings are not set up correctly for GPU passthrough to VMs. This is correctable with an ACS patch for Linux. Here's hoping it's correctable by software or firmware and doesn't require a hardware fix. If none of that made any sense to you, don't worry about it. =P

But this may be how AMD does their market differentiation between the mainstream and HEDT parts, we just don't know yet. But having that 1800X 8C/16T part got people excited about having a machine well-suited to this application, even if the actual number of available PCIe lanes was just barely enough to allow this. I, for one, am hoping to move to Linux full-time, with a Windows VM running on top of it to service those last few things that need Windows and I don't have a choice for.

eames
May 9, 2009



SwissArmyDruid posted:

The fringe: IOMMU groupings are not set up correctly for GPU passthrough to VMs. This is correctable with an ACS patch for Linux. Here's hoping it's correctable by software or firmware and doesn't require a hardware fix. If none of that made any sense to you, don't worry about it. =P

I, for one, am hoping to move to Linux full-time, with a Windows VM running on top of it to service those last few things that need Windows and I don't have a choice for.

Sadly there's another KVM related bug with NPT (nested page tables). I don't know the details but enabling it (default) causes degraded graphic performance, disabling it fixes the GPU performance but causes random stutters and reduced CPU performance.

https://www.redhat.com/archives/vfi...l/msg00020.html

I'm currently running Linux on bare metal and Windows in a VM. Ryzen would be perfect if it wasn't for these virtualization bugs.

PerrineClostermann
Dec 15, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


Has GPU passthrough gotten good enough to play games in a Windows VM reliably? My friend keeps insisting it's still got bad bugs in general

SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



Epic suck.

Well, AMD are under super-hyper-mega-ultra-crunch time to get ready for Computex.

On a scale of increasing amounts of suckitude, here's hoping:

* Their priorities are being consumed by having to get the new poo poo ready for when Computex begins on the 30th of May
* they can figure out what's wrong
* they don't have to hardware rev to fix things
* that these issues stem from how AMD intends to segment between mainstream and HEDT.

eames
May 9, 2009



PerrineClostermann posted:

Has GPU passthrough gotten good enough to play games in a Windows VM reliably? My friend keeps insisting it's still got bad bugs in general

Once it's up and running it's stable in my experience. Getting there can be a challenge. Performance inside the VM is indistinguishable from bare metal on my little quadcore Haswell Xeon/GTX1060.

SwissArmyDruid posted:

Epic suck.

Well, AMD are under super-hyper-mega-ultra-crunch time to get ready for Computex.

On a scale of increasing amounts of suckitude, here's hoping:

* Their priorities are being consumed by having to get the new poo poo ready for when Computex begins on the 30th of May
* they can figure out what's wrong
* they don't have to hardware rev to fix things
* that these issues stem from how AMD intends to segment between mainstream and HEDT.

reddit ama posted:

DON WOLIGROSKI: This is something I've personally started to look at recently as a pet project. I'm playing with VM-Ware on my Ryzen system at home because, really, Ryzen's highly-threaded CPUs bring a lot of virtualization potential to the table in price segments where it hasn't been before. The sub-$300 segment has been limited to 4-thread processors on the Intel side, while Ryzen 5 ratchets that up to 12 threads. Boom.

Having said that, we're in launch mode right now, and virtualization isn't a top priority at the moment. We're laser focused on making the platform as fast as we can in the near future. I anticipate we'll look harder at virtualization as time goes on.

eames fucked around with this message at 21:40 on May 21, 2017

Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!

I did the GPU passthrough stuff a while ago. Worked just fine. However I refused to run the Linux desktop on a secondary poo poo GPU, so I ran either Xorg or Windows on my fat GPU (games and all). Given all the sing and dance, I might as well just have dual booted.

SamDabbers
May 26, 2003



Ryzen 7 + X370 + Dual GPU would make for a sweet no-compromise multiseat setup though. It'd be the talk of the LAN party

Munkeymon
Aug 14, 2003

Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.





So the GPU passthrough issues do affect people using discreet graphics or no?

Also, people still do LAN parties?!

Subjunctive
Sep 12, 2006

careful now


Boiled Water posted:

Ah yes the mid tier card the Titan Z, X, XP.

They release their middle cards first, then later release the x50, Ti, Titan.

NihilismNow
Aug 31, 2003


Munkeymon posted:

So the GPU passthrough issues do affect people using discreet graphics or no?

On ESXi 6 about a year ago it was still spotty. Some games run near native speed, other games crash or have weird performance issues, warthunder would run fine until ANY water was visible and then it was 10fps time.

EmpyreanFlux
Mar 1, 2013

The AUDACITY! The IMPUDENCE! The unabated NERVE!


eames posted:

Yes, that's what I wrote. Destiny 2 info from the devs suggests that GPU focused improvements don't cut it anymore.
PS4 Pro has eight Jaguar cores at 2.1 Ghz, Scorpio will have eight Jaguar cores at ~2.3 Ghz.

The closest benchmark result for a console Jaguar CPU I could find is this:

http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compar...R3/3922vsm10020

The lowly quadcore Ryzen 5 1400 is roughly three times as fast single threaded and twice as fast in multithreaded applications compared to the octocore console CPUs (the Athlon 5350 is a 2.1 Ghz quadcore and I'm assuming perfect 2x scaling for this example).
You can compare multicore results to an overclocked 1800X if you need a laugh. it is 5x the performance of console CPUs

Console CPUs are terrible but it didn't matter until they lifted the GPU bottleneck with this useless VR-driven "almost-4K" mid-cycle refresh, as SwissArmyDruid mentioned.

Ryzen is apparently related to the cat cores or at least began it's design stages as "make cat cores better". I'm still flummoxed on why the Scorpio went with Jaguar, and not Puma+ or even the rumored Basilisk if they were going have an issue with Zen cores. It's not even like Zen would be particularly throttled in performance here, they could easily do 8 cores at 2.5Ghz or 4 cores at 3.0Ghz and still be inside the overclocked Jaguar core thermal envelope, Zens just that much better of a design.

fishmech
Jul 16, 2006

by VideoGames


Salad Prong

FaustianQ posted:

Ryzen is apparently related to the cat cores or at least began it's design stages as "make cat cores better". I'm still flummoxed on why the Scorpio went with Jaguar, and not Puma+ or even the rumored Basilisk if they were going have an issue with Zen cores. It's not even like Zen would be particularly throttled in performance here, they could easily do 8 cores at 2.5Ghz or 4 cores at 3.0Ghz and still be inside the overclocked Jaguar core thermal envelope, Zens just that much better of a design.

The hardware had to be finalized either the end of last year or beginning of this year, in order to ramp up production of the actual hardware and have working devkits available for the game developers. An architecture that isn't out yet certainly wouldn't work, and Puma/Puma+ simply might not have been judged a worthwhile change compared to the option Microsoft actually took, of customizing Jaguar cores further.

eames
May 9, 2009







(not my screenshot but isn't fake, I checked their instagram)

eames fucked around with this message at 20:52 on May 22, 2017

SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



If it ain't Raven Ridge, I literally do not loving care.

Furthermore, Dell seems to have hit the price/performance apex with the Dell 7000 Gaming this year. For $1000 USD, I get a Kaby Lake i5 + 1050Ti + 1080p IPS display and that will last until the next console hardware generation.

Whatever Asus is showing, it needs to be at least that performance level on a APU, and it needs to be interesting, or cheaper, or whatever.

SwissArmyDruid fucked around with this message at 22:49 on May 22, 2017

NewFatMike
Jun 11, 2015



Think we'd be able to get 1050 performance out of an APU? RX 560 is having a tough time getting there, but if AMD can supplant their lowest level graphics cards with APUs, then the Polaris refresh makes a little more sense.

Twerk from Home
Jan 17, 2009

This avatar brought to you by the 'save our dead gay forums' foundation.


NewFatMike posted:

Think we'd be able to get 1050 performance out of an APU? RX 560 is having a tough time getting there, but if AMD can supplant their lowest level graphics cards with APUs, then the Polaris refresh makes a little more sense.

No way. The 1050 / 1050 Ti are really efficient GPUs and still have a 75W TDP. I don't see integrated graphics keeping up with nVidia's current-generation high efficiency GPU when they have at most 50W to play with for the GPU-part alone, and that's being generous.

wargames
Mar 16, 2008

official yospos cat censor


isn't the 1050s built by samsung not tmsc?

Palladium
May 8, 2012


wargames posted:

isn't the 1050s built by samsung not tmsc?

"If somebody else is getting much better results using the same process, of course we must blame the process."

Arzachel
May 12, 2012


Why the hell are you even talking about the 1050, leaked specs say it's pretty much a RX460*0.6 and if the arch delivers, we might even see it come close to that and not get choked to poo poo by memory bandwidth.

Truga
May 4, 2014




Lipstick Apathy

Arzachel posted:

choked to poo poo by memory bandwidth.

Yeah, does this thing feature HBM? If not, then it's poo poo.

New Zealand can eat me
Aug 29, 2008



Is the new geometry pipeline/draw stream binning rasterizer stuff only for Vega or does that also apply to the APUs?

Arzachel
May 12, 2012


Truga posted:

Yeah, does this thing feature HBM? If not, then it's poo poo.

Nope but

New Zealand can eat me posted:

Is the new geometry pipeline/draw stream binning rasterizer stuff only for Vega or does that also apply to the APUs?

Raven Ridge is using Vega tech so all the features should be included. That along with DDR4 *should* be enough.

Misc
Sep 19, 2008



Raven Ridge is no good to me without some goddamn mITX boards

New Zealand can eat me
Aug 29, 2008



Arzachel posted:

Raven Ridge is using Vega tech so all the features should be included. That along with DDR4 *should* be enough.

Even if the DDR4 is using 1.35v for DOCP, that will still be ~0.15 less than GDDR5 (which is typically >1.5v right?). Does that result in a direct translation to ~10% less overall power usage?

That by itself would take you from 75W to 67.5W, I don't see 50W as being an unreasonable target.



Can't remember if anyone mentioned this but: http://ryzen.online is really nice. Just pick which board you have, and it will email you a notification when they push new files. I used a unique address when I signed up, and have not received any other spam/messages yet either, which is sadly a pleasant surprise. Unfortunately it's only for ASUS and GIGABYTE, but still very nice.

ASUS has been going nuts updating all of their QVL lists, I'm assuming this is in preparation for AGESA 1.0.0.6 and the new memory dividers?

A few companies have already pushed out beta updates that only have the incoming new memory dividers up to 4000mhz, early forum posts seem promising. It's not clear if the new AGESA is also present, but if it is, they forgot to update the version string. The last time this happened we had official/stable releases the next day.

NewFatMike
Jun 11, 2015



Arzachel posted:

Why the hell are you even talking about the 1050, leaked specs say it's pretty much a RX460*0.6 and if the arch delivers, we might even see it come close to that and not get choked to poo poo by memory bandwidth.

Because checking the leaked specs on my phone is

Also genuinely thought there was HBM on die, apparently Google thinks I love outdated WCCFTech articles.

barnold
Dec 16, 2011

...but i didnt finish




Holy poo poo. People weren't kidding about how well Ryzen handles multithreaded tasks. Just churned out what would have been a 7-8 hour Premiere render on my old i5-3570k in less than 90 minutes. It finished so fast, I actually thought the render had crashed when I checked the screen and didn't see a progress bar.

MaxxBot
Oct 6, 2003

you could have clapped

you should have clapped!!


Misc posted:

Raven Ridge is no good to me without some goddamn mITX boards

Yeah I'd really like to see mITX and even some mSTX boards, you could make a really tiny gaming system with an APU and board like this.

http://www.asrock.com/mb/intel/H110M-STX/

SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



Currently down on Asrock. I'm still loving waiting on that loving Z270M-STX board with the MXM slot they showed off in Taipei at the beginning of this year.

loving let me use this loving M2000M I've got, you jackholes!

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


FaustianQ posted:

Ryzen is apparently related to the cat cores or at least began it's design stages as "make cat cores better".
It's almost comical how much bulldozer->jaguar-> repeats the path of netburst->yonah->Core

FaustianQ posted:

I'm still flummoxed on why the Scorpio went with Jaguar, and not Puma+ or even the rumored Basilisk if they were going have an issue with Zen cores. It's not even like Zen would be particularly throttled in performance here, they could easily do 8 cores at 2.5Ghz or 4 cores at 3.0Ghz and still be inside the overclocked Jaguar core thermal envelope, Zens just that much better of a design.

Besides time constraints as fishmech said, there's lots more up-front money for the design costs there, especially if there's anything semi-custom in the Jaguar cores (it wouldn't be at all surprising to have some DRM features added to a console). GPU seems sufficiently abstracted in the current consoles that it's just a drop-in replacement. Plus, more CPU is harder for game devs to take advantage of in ways that are 100% compatible with the old console. They don't want games having different feature sets on the different models.

So a scorpio with a better CPU would kinda only use it to do 60FPS on a title which would otherwise be CPU-limited to 30 despite the new GPU. Nice, but not worth the cost.

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SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



Been thinking about what I said, and I think that in the end, i5 + 1050 ti in a Raven Ridge APU is way too high a bar. Maybe with Zen2 + Navi, but right now, no.

I still maintain that the Dell 7000 Gaming series is _the_ place to be as far as a gaming laptop is concerned, with that perfect intersection of size, power, screen, and battery life, where if you bumped any one of the component parts any larger, the rest of the system would hold it back? And I do not think that AMD can hit that with a single chip.

The best that AMD can do with Raven Ridge, I think, is if you were to plot the above system on a radar chart, and then an AMD APU-based system plotted on top of it, the APU-based system should occupy the same profile, but proportionally smaller, and commensurately cheaper, down around the $750-$800 retail mark.

SwissArmyDruid fucked around with this message at 01:16 on May 24, 2017

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