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peramene
Oct 13, 2015

Just peramene.


I like how my demonstrations were all pretty simple because I was trying to show how quickly you could pull that poo poo off and you have this.. super cypher from mars poo poo.

You are an endless delight.

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EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


I mostly wanted an example of a kind of breadcrumb that met both criteria, if yours does that then you're safe!

sephiRoth IRA
Jun 13, 2007

"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality."

-Carl Sagan


EccoRaven posted:

by obvious I mean it's not hidden (to prevent you from sneaking in a bunch of fake breadcrumbs), and by unbreakable I mean coding it in such a way that one cannot reasonably think it's anything but what you are trying to do.

something like a rough and dirty vigenere cipher, or even just a sentence with a letter shift.

like let's say I'm a tracker and I'm planning on targeting pera tonight, I could go:


ueukkytsvjortsyibuhgy


...which, if you consider the letters of a standard QWERTY keyboard and cut it in half between the G and H, and every letter to the left half gets shifted to the right by one, and on the right half shifted to the left by one, it should (barring a mistake) spell:


iwilltrackperatonight


You are all creative people I am sure you can come up with your own code.

How does this solve anything? Someone could breadcrumb and then just lie. It's real easy to lie on the internet.

peramene
Oct 13, 2015

Just peramene.


areyoucontagious posted:

It's real easy to lie on the internet.

This post comes with a peramene seal of approval.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


areyoucontagious posted:

How does this solve anything? Someone could breadcrumb and then just lie. It's real easy to lie on the internet.

say I made the breadcrumb I did

the next day I say "I tracked AYC to the kill!"

you say "decode your breadcrumb."

I say "no, I refuse."

you vote me.


or, I say "sure um, see it spells 'iwilltrackayctonight"

you say "no it doesn't. it spells 'iwilltrackperatonight'."

you vote me.


or I say "oh I forgot to make a breadcrumb that was just gibberish"

you vote me.


it's not really possible to lie about a breadcrumb. what one could do is make multiple, but that's why I asked for only one and to make it really obvious where it is (but impossible for scum to crack).

I suppose someone could have their one breadcrumb somehow spell out two or three separate options; I'm worried pera's might have done that, for instance. But it'd be pretty clever of them, and either way it's just to shore up what they claim tomorrow rather than act as proof in and of itself.

peramene
Oct 13, 2015

Just peramene.


It just occurred to me that I've already copclaimed. I'm an idiot. gently caress cyphers.

Flip the coin with me, BK: I'm taking a stab at checking my sanity tonight. We both know it's useless bothering to confirm the innos. I'm literally going to flip a coin.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


please don't do that. please decide on whom you want to investigate and please say it in a breadcrumb.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


the efficacy of breadcrumbing is small since if pera and PMush are scum together they'll coordinate their breadcrumb but it's still better than not.

peramene
Oct 13, 2015

Just peramene.


peramene posted:

That's an interesting way to characterize my posting. One can hardly blame me for hitting Quid - without a vote, I reiterate - based on his earlier posting. I would wager that he gets it and can handle day one pressure. Now maybe he and I have a bit of in-speak that doesn't mean anything to you, but Quid understands and since I'm talking to Quid, that's what's up.

The quoted post above isn't scummy, it's just rude for no reason. But as typical as that is for you, the remainder of your argument with Quid - what's the point of sending him on a fetch quest?

It really isn't. Please stop telling us - but more importantly, me - how to play. Please.

The efficacy is zero. The only thing it could conceivably do is allow you to come out with your as-yet-unclaimed PR with a crafted result. That's it.

I don't understand what in the world builds up the temerity inside of you to present a categorically flawed system as useful for any other reason.

Should that have less padding? Your system is easily beaten and it's bullshit that you've twice insisted but now are backing off of it. I won't let you say it's going to work and it's going to reveal facts when it just isn't.

Not doing what you tell me, especially after you've just said that you'll vote someone for disobeying? That's better.

I encourage anyone who has a scrap of faith that they can build an unbeatable, uncrackable coded breadcrumb that couldn't possibly somehow otherwise be twisted to say multiple things to give it a try.

It is so much more important to me to defy your request just on the off-chance, right? Juuust on the off-chance.

I'm flipping a coin, and I'm coming back with a useless result. Spoiler alert, any result I'm coming back with is going to be useless to everybody else.

Pretending otherwise would be farcical in the extreme.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


it's silly but it literally doesn't hurt anyone to do it and it could potentially help solve the logic puzzle.

I'm assuming that post is your breadcrumb though, which violates the "it should be obvious" part but if you're going to throw a tantrum about it then whatever.

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?


EccoRaven posted:

You are all creative people I am sure you can come up with your own code.
Ecco.

Ecco.

You wanna yell at someone for poor town play? That is literally against basically every standard version of the mafia rules we've had for the past several years. You might as well ask us all to quote our role PMs. You are going WAY too far in trying to force this. I understand how important this is to you. I get it.

But what the gently caress Ecco.

Hang on, I'm catching up.

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?


This plan is stupid and arguing about whether it'll work or not is missing the forest for the trees.

Ecco, please respond to my posts from this morning instead of trying to invent a brilliant gambit to prove how clever you are for solving a flipless game.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


yeah I think it's PMush and pera. I don't know why PMush claimed jailor unnecessarily but it just makes more sense than BK hard-bussing his buddy (or trying to perform the kill tonight instead of his partner AA/AYC).

their play all game has been erratic. PMush has, repeatedly, tried to get us to rush a vote (first on me day 2, then on BK yesterday and today). Pera's cop claim felt completely ad hoc; she's relying strongly on her "breadcrumb" which was literally just her saying during the content game in the first hours of day 1 "I would investigate PMush if I were a cop" (alongside who she'd kill as a vig and protect as a doc). That she brings it up at all as "proof" of her claim is suspicious; you mean to tell me that after all of Day 1, who she wanted to investigate never once changed? She decided who she would investigate within the first hours of the day and locked it in??

It's just nonsense.


Conversely nothing BK has done stands out as extraordinarily scummy. The worst he's done is not be around a lot, which is crappy, but that's not scummy in and of itself. When he's around he's posting his thoughts and been fairly reasonable. It's true that BK didn't consider that AYC was the kill target last night; PMush is right that it's weird he jumped to "the scum withheld the kill." But it's not as damning to me as the rest of PMush and pera's behavior.

I could very easily be wrong. I could easily see it being BK. Maybe he's alone and he did a nonsense bus on Quidnose for no reason, or maybe AYC/AA is his buddy (AYC is more likely than AA; AA has tried to shift the vote to BK/me, while AYC seems to be leaning on the PP Squad) and for some reason they had BK try to do the kill.

hm.

Actually yeah if BK has a buddy still living it's AYC. Neat.

peramene
Oct 13, 2015

Just peramene.


EccoRaven posted:

it's silly but it literally doesn't hurt anyone to do it and it could potentially help solve the logic puzzle.

I'm assuming that post is your breadcrumb though, which violates the "it should be obvious" part but if you're going to throw a tantrum about it then whatever.

No, I will not allow you to mischaracterize that post as being my breadcrumb. It is not. I am not.

I am going to do exactly what I have said I am going to do, and it will not impact anyone else's game.

And no, not whatever. You've made a blatantly false statement and this is not a tantrum.

You've seen me throw a tantrum. This is bewilderment that you are honestly presenting this as feasible or meaningful.

Watch. Here's what I would do.

iamgoingtocop <-- I already know that I can reliably matriculate these characters into any given code. That gives me the ability to appear earnest when I present one of my three prepared keywords.

PMush Perfect posted:

That is literally against basically every standard version of the mafia rules we've had for the past several years.

gently caress the rules.

All you have to do is find a way to parse, say: wm, zedk, and hwtd along with the USELESS leadup phrase into a second cypher that obfuscates them enough - convenient as hell that there's only a two character difference between all possible crumbs -- 'pera' 'ayc' 'aa' 'ecco' 'mush' even 'pmush'

EASY. Yeah, it'd take an hour. I'd do it. So would you. Have to keep the keycodes secret, and that's the part that changes. The longer it gets, the more cyphers available to gently caress with.

"Poor town play." gently caress off. You pushing this is scummy as poo poo. Why are you so attached to it?

preview edit AND THERE IT IS

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


PMush Perfect posted:

You wanna yell at someone for poor town play? That is literally against basically every standard version of the mafia rules we've had for the past several years. You might as well ask us all to quote our role PMs. You are going WAY too far in trying to force this. I understand how important this is to you. I get it.
nah.

computerized codes are bad because they are unbreakable except by machines. there was a brief phase early in mafia where people would fullclaim using a computer algorithm website to encrypt their claim, and then everyone posts their encrypted keys afterwards. it was deemed unfair to scum.

there is no rule about handmade breadcrumbs. "I will track pera" but with a simple keyboard shift is not only totally legal but should probably become standard form once someone has claimed. It's functionally no different than having the first letter of each sentence spell something. There's nothing to stop you from lying within your breadcrumb, all a breadcrumb does is just say "I didn't make this up on the spot right now; at worst I made it up on the spot when I first made the breadcrumb."

that you and pera have both kicked such a fuss about it (while at the same time encouraging us to rush to vote BK) is very troubling.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


peramene posted:

"Poor town play." gently caress off. You pushing this is scummy as poo poo. Why are you so attached to it?
how is it scummy.

at worst you make a breadcrumb and then tomorrow you show it and say the result and then we're exactly in the same position we would have been in the universe where you never breadcrumbed.

at best it reveals some kind of inconsistency that helps explain the logic problem.

you're both putting up a fight to something that at worst has no effect on the game. it's so strange.

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?


Ecco, if we lose this game because you get loving modkilled, I swear to god.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


PMush Perfect posted:

Ecco, if we lose this game because you get loving modkilled, I swear to god.

the worst that'll happen is kashuno says "knock it off."

you're being really, really paranoid about this. literally, the worst thing that'll happen (if you encrypt it well enough) is we're in exactly the same position as if you hadn't breadcrumbed it.

this isn't saying "share your role PM," this is something so incredibly flipping minor.

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?


gently caress, you know what? Fine.

If I'm right about Quid and we're 5/1 with BK, then being 4/1 with BK isn't that much different. We win tomorrow or you dig your heels in even deeper and we lose what should have been an easy game.

And if we're 4/2, Quid really did town hammer, and BK has a scumbuddy, then we'll go 3/2 tomorrow, pera will probably have another cop result that you won't believe, and we'll be in lylo with nothing to show for it but a dead townie.

This strategy actually makes more sense if I'm right than if I'm wrong. So, yeah, sure, let's do it.

##unvote

But, real talk, Ecco? This is a choice powered by salt and spite. Looking back at this game, I'll be able to say "We had this in the bag, and Ecco threw it away on stupid gambits". And if we lose this, if that does happen, I think I'm going to need to stop playing Mafia with you for a while because I am IRL mad at you right now and I don't trust myself to not drag that into future games.

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?


How do you vote no-vote without using the L word. I don't wanna be stuck tearing my hair out for another two days.

peramene
Oct 13, 2015

Just peramene.


EccoRaven posted:

their play all game has been erratic. PMush has, repeatedly, tried to get us to rush a vote (first on me day 2, then on BK yesterday and today). Pera's cop claim felt completely ad hoc; she's relying strongly on her "breadcrumb" which was literally just her saying during the content game in the first hours of day 1 "I would investigate PMush if I were a cop" (alongside who she'd kill as a vig and protect as a doc). That she brings it up at all as "proof" of her claim is suspicious; you mean to tell me that after all of Day 1, who she wanted to investigate never once changed? She decided who she would investigate within the first hours of the day and locked it in??

It's just nonsense.

Once again, you are completely mischaracterizing what I've said, how I've said it, and what my intentions were. I decided who I would investigate the second I got my role PM.

"You mean to tell me that after all of Day 1, who he wanted to vote never once changed? He decided who he would vote within the first hours of the day BEFORE a "jokevote" you REPEATEDLY insisted I was taking more seriously than it merited while I was earnestly loving casing Quid. You can rattle chains about how I'm being manic and my posting is illegible and sit on your high horse all you want, it doesn't change the fact that you came into this game expecting to be in charge, have continued to do so, and I *love* the idea of a cypher-scandal and it didn't even occur to me at the time as I went to tell you why it wasn't going to be effective; the reason I love them is because they're so easy to convince people that you have sincere cypher and then slip the lie in. I love liars and lying. It is one of my favorite things about you.

oh god drat it

peramene
Oct 13, 2015

Just peramene.


PMush Perfect posted:

How do you vote no-vote without using the L word. I don't wanna be stuck tearing my hair out for another two days.

YOU JUST DON'T VOTE WE LITERALLY DID IT YESTERDAY

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?


Oh, by the way, one last thing

You know who keeps throwing people in jail but they break out anyways? You know who kind of has that as their entire thing?

PMush Perfect posted:

I am not the Batman


Superheroes.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


PMush Perfect posted:

Looking back at this game, I'll be able to say "We had this in the bag, and Ecco threw it away on stupid gambits". And if we lose this, if that does happen, I think I'm going to need to stop playing Mafia with you for a while because I am IRL mad at you right now and I don't trust myself to not drag that into future games.

this is a very weird reaction.

the game isn't "in the bag." We have no reason to believe you over BK. There is no smoking gun. BK didn't address the possibility that scum tried to kill AYC; you didn't address the possibility that scum tried to kill me. You spent all of day 1 shitposting and making a nonsense case. You spent days 2 and 3 trying to rush votes against me and BK.

Yes, if you're town, to you this game is solved. But we have no reason to believe you over anyone else. You've not played in such a way as to make your claim inherently credible, and there's very good reasons to think you and pera are the scum doing a weird gambit. That I haven't voted for either of you yet is more a sign that I'm still not sure who to believe.

But despite that, I'm just one person! None of you need my vote for anything. If you really, really are sure it's BK, then get AYC and AA to vote for him. Those two plus you and pera makes 4. Then you'll have your hammer and you get to win the game and rub it in my face!

And finally none of this will inherently result from you breadcrumbing who you'll jail tonight. It's so completely bizarre that you're talking about this like I'm throwing the game away because I asked you to write a sentence of coded gibberish!

sephiRoth IRA
Jun 13, 2007

"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality."

-Carl Sagan


PMush Perfect posted:

Oh, by the way, one last thing

You know who keeps throwing people in jail but they break out anyways? You know who kind of has that as their entire thing?

Superheroes.

Wow. Really? You're claiming your joke post was an elaborate jailer breadcrumb?

That's something to consider.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


PMush Perfect posted:

Oh, by the way, one last thing

You know who keeps throwing people in jail but they break out anyways? You know who kind of has that as their entire thing?

Superheroes.

why didn't you post this sooner? (waiting an entire game day + to post this, if it was intended as a breadcrumb, takes away the credibility and makes it feel ad hoc.)

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?


EccoRaven posted:

why didn't you post this sooner? (waiting an entire game day + to post this, if it was intended as a breadcrumb, takes away the credibility and makes it feel ad hoc.)
Because I realized after-the-fact that someone could have twisted it into "look at this fake claim that could mean anything from bulletproof to watcher". If we're for some reason now seriously considering that I am scum who withheld the night kill because ~*~*~*~*reasons*~*~*~*~ then there is no reason for me to care if any of you believe me any more anyways.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


peramene posted:

You can rattle chains about how I'm being manic and my posting is illegible and sit on your high horse all you want, it doesn't change the fact that you came into this game expecting to be in charge, have continued to do so

I'm a bossy person. This is a team game. You're whining that I'm not immediately believing you and PMush when you two have not tried very hard to convince me (or the rest of us) that you're on the up-and-up, or that BK is a bad guy. You're both throwing fits right now because I asked something incredibly minor of the two of you.

Please step outside yourselves for a second and realize how ridiculous you're both being.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


PMush Perfect posted:

Because I realized after-the-fact that someone could have twisted it into "look at this fake claim that could mean anything from bulletproof to watcher". If we're for some reason now seriously considering that I am scum who withheld the night kill because ~*~*~*~*reasons*~*~*~*~ then there is no reason for me to care if any of you believe me any more anyways.

we're seriously considering all possibilities because that's what townies do. We're seriously considering all possibilities because there isn't anything obvious about what's happened so far. To external observers it could easily go either way. It could easily be you two who are lying scum, just as it could easily be BK. There's good reasons for either belief. So we have to consider everything because if we consider everything maybe eventually it won't become an actual coin flip.

I'm sorry you're having a bad time.

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?


jbnwfsznbebuzpvfddpcvubsftujmmuifcftudipjdfgpsxipupkbjm

peramene
Oct 13, 2015

Just peramene.



Only just caught this.

I think we understand one another a lot better, now.

It is scummy to go "everybody do this, it'll work and be PERFECT, no no, do it, do it or WE'LL VOTE YOU" and then when someone points out that the system doesn't work, is pointless, doesn't change a god drat thing.

Just wanna know. Have you posted one? A Y/N will do for me.

areyoucontagious posted:

Wow. Really? You're claiming your joke post was an elaborate jailer breadcrumb?

That's something to consider.

this is my alleged scumbuddy. please help. i still don't even believe she's a jailer and I have no idea why she's lying but she's so deep into it she can't loving back out now, it's ridiculous. this whole day is ridiculous.

I'm leaving my vote where it is, because it's WIFOM as hell to remove it, and with two innos w/ four in my heart, I'm still inclined to trust my results. If BK wants to breadcode who he's going to doc before he either does or he withholds tonight's kill I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW YOU COULD loving DO THAT I encourage him to do it. If you don't want to lynch him, cool. I'll flip a coin. Maybe somebody'll die. If you wanna lynch somebody else, cool. I won't self-hammer because I am actually here and invested and playing.

EccoRaven posted:

I'm a bossy person. This is a team game. You're whining that I'm not immediately believing you and PMush when you two have not tried very hard to convince me (or the rest of us) that you're on the up-and-up, or that BK is a bad guy. You're both throwing fits right now because I asked something incredibly minor of the two of you.

Please step outside yourselves for a second and realize how ridiculous you're both being.

I threw a fit earlier. This hasn't been a fit or whining, you've ignored every criticism I've leveled against you not just today but this entire day, and you didn't ask. I don't expect you to immediately believe me, which is why I've sat here for hours trying to communicate with you in full sight.

EccoRaven posted:

I'm sorry you're having a bad time.

Again? Really?

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


pmush posted:

was that honestly so difficult? the world hasn't ended, the game didn't suddenly collapse in on itself.

now if I recall correctly you're convinced it's BK. Convince me to trust you, or convince me that it's definitely BK over you. Helpful hint: if BK isn't alone, AYC is his buddy.

peramene
Oct 13, 2015

Just peramene.


PMush Perfect posted:

jbnwfsznbebuzpvfddpcvubsftujmmuifcftudipjdfgpsxipupkbjm

please tell me you at least didn't include "iamgoingtojail"

sephiRoth IRA
Jun 13, 2007

"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality."

-Carl Sagan


PMush Perfect posted:

jbnwfsznbebuzpvfddpcvubsftujmmuifcftudipjdfgpsxipupkbjm

Weak poo poo. Make it harder next time. Also this is why it's stupid to b breadcrumb like this

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


peramene posted:

It is scummy to go "everybody do this, it'll work and be PERFECT, no no, do it, do it or WE'LL VOTE YOU" and then when someone points out that the system doesn't work, is pointless, doesn't change a god drat thing.

how is it scummy. there is a cost-benefit analysis here, and the cost is essentially non-existent but the benefit is potentially game-winning. how is it scummy rather than, to you, annoying or obnoxious? even if it can be easily gamed.

peramene posted:

I threw a fit earlier. This hasn't been a fit or whining, you've ignored every criticism I've leveled against you not just today but this entire day, and you didn't ask. I don't expect you to immediately believe me, which is why I've sat here for hours trying to communicate with you in full sight.
if you've been trying to convince me it's BK instead of PMush you're doing a very bad job of it, heads up. you spent yesterday convinced (for no reason) Quid was town and I was scum. what have you actually done today to convince me BK is scum?

Have you completely 180'd and now think Quidnose was scum? You said yesterday you believed he was town. You said yesterday you... it was unclear but it seemed like you always thought he was town, which is why you didn't hammer him? Or you thought he was scum but then getting TOWN on Pmush made you think quid was town too?

It's all very unclear pera where you actually stand, where you have stood, and why you believe what you do.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


areyoucontagious posted:

Weak poo poo. Make it harder next time. Also this is why it's stupid to b breadcrumb like this

why are you busy breaking other people's breadcrumbs?

sephiRoth IRA
Jun 13, 2007

"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality."

-Carl Sagan


EccoRaven posted:

why are you busy breaking other people's breadcrumbs?

Because everything else that's been posted today is useless bickering. And honestly why wouldn't you do that? Is there some code if mafia honor?

sephiRoth IRA
Jun 13, 2007

"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality."

-Carl Sagan


EccoRaven posted:

why are you busy breaking other people's breadcrumbs?

Also come the gently caress on, "breaking" makes it sound like it took more than 30 seconds

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


areyoucontagious posted:

Because everything else that's been posted today is useless bickering. And honestly why wouldn't you do that? Is there some code if mafia honor?

I have zero interest in breaking people's breadcrumbs ahead of time. the only people who would be interested are scum so they can coordinate their actions ahead of time.

neat.

areyoucontagious posted:

Also come the gently caress on, "breaking" makes it sound like it took more than 30 seconds

I have spent 0 seconds trying to figure out PMush's breadcrumb because it doesn't matter until tomorrow.

this is really problematic!

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peramene
Oct 13, 2015

Just peramene.


EccoRaven posted:

was that honestly so difficult? the world hasn't ended, the game didn't suddenly collapse in on itself.

now if I recall correctly you're convinced it's BK. Convince me to trust you, or convince me that it's definitely BK over you. Helpful hint: if BK isn't alone, AYC is his buddy.

Do your best to throw a case at AYC, someone we all know is loving town! That'll really convince him to vote with you!

areyoucontagious posted:

Weak poo poo. Make it harder next time. Also this is why it's stupid to b breadcrumb like this

this is me waving my loving arms, this might even be me throwing a fit

I'm gonna go throw a fit somewhere else.

Thank you for taking the time, AYC. I was afraid I'd have to and I just don't have the brain for it.

of course - we have two days. so, y'know.

can't believe i wasted a day trying to do what you did in less than 20. namaste and good loving night.

I might just take tomorrow off. Leaving my vote where it is, no reason to move it.

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