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Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




LIVE AMMO COSPLAY posted:

90s entertainment pretended racism and sexism were over while also revelling in awful poo poo and broke a lot of brains.

That's it, yeah. Kinda same in the 00s. There's a lot of contradictions that ended up exploding in the 10s.

Though oddly enough I think the 90s actually had more open acknowledgement of class and material issues than the 00s did.

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Megillah Gorilla
Sep 22, 2003

One Potato to rule them all,
One Potato to find them,
One Potato to bring them all
And in the darkness bind them.





Bread Liar

LIVE AMMO COSPLAY posted:

90s entertainment pretended racism and sexism were over while also revelling in awful poo poo and broke a lot of brains.

South Park.txt

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



Thank you. Yes this is the one.

Ghost Leviathan posted:

Though oddly enough I think the 90s actually had more open acknowledgement of class and material issues than the 00s did.
I actually get that impression too, although it's hard to think of concrete examples. Some time in the 00s it became deeply unfashionable and even borderline taboo to be acknowledge that loads of people are born poor and die poor and that's just their lot in life.

Megillah Gorilla posted:

South Park.txt
The era of irony poisoning. No wonder Gen-Z's big cultural rebellion was literally "gently caress you, we're unapologetically sincere."

LIVE AMMO COSPLAY
Feb 3, 2006



Megillah Gorilla posted:

South Park.txt

It's ironically funny that Cartman starts a character who is "unfairly" accused of hate crimes and now he's an open racist who loves Hitler and race war.

FreudianSlippers
Apr 12, 2010

Shooting and Fucking
are the same thing!



Wasn't Cartman supposed to be a modern Archie Bunker?

LIVE AMMO COSPLAY
Feb 3, 2006



FreudianSlippers posted:

Wasn't Cartman supposed to be a modern Archie Bunker?

Depends what season you're talking about. I always thought he's supposed to be one of those people who "hates everyone equally."

Ambitious Spider
Feb 13, 2012





Lipstick Apathy


reminds me of:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ7mJFNkLAU

which tw for sexual assault

the_steve
Nov 9, 2005

We're always hiring!



FreudianSlippers posted:

Wasn't Cartman supposed to be a modern Archie Bunker?

At first, yeah. That was supposed to be his schtick early on, but then he got ramped up to full on Nazi and I don't think they bothered dialing him back until they started turning Mr. Garrison into Trump and let him be the blatant Nazi instead.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Cartman's still a huge piece of poo poo, he just changes up his act just often enough to get away with it.

DACK FAYDEN
Feb 25, 2013

Bear Witness

Toshimo posted:

If you have Cee Lo's pipes, you run with that poo poo.
speaking of people who didn't age well, sadly

letthereberock
Sep 4, 2004



mind the walrus posted:

Thank you. Yes this is the one.

I actually get that impression too, although it's hard to think of concrete examples. Some time in the 00s it became deeply unfashionable and even borderline taboo to be acknowledge that loads of people are born poor and die poor and that's just their lot in life.

The era of irony poisoning. No wonder Gen-Z's big cultural rebellion was literally "gently caress you, we're unapologetically sincere."

Yeah looking back, roughly 2000-2005 was a really dark time culturally where it really seemed like the right was ascendant and a lot of pop culture was catering to that, to an extent that would seem almost unthinkable today. The nationalism/jingoism coming from 9/11 was certainly part of it, but not the entire story.

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

NHP advocate.


letthereberock posted:

Yeah looking back, roughly 2000-2005 was a really dark time culturally where it really seemed like the right was ascendant and a lot of pop culture was catering to that, to an extent that would seem almost unthinkable today. The nationalism/jingoism coming from 9/11 was certainly part of it, but not the entire story.

I mean a lot of it was just swallowed up and became part of culture in general. How many Calls of Duty are we on now, for instance?

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



LIVE AMMO COSPLAY posted:

Depends what season you're talking about. I always thought he's supposed to be one of those people who "hates everyone equally."

They were all originally meant to be typical kids of the kind you knew at school. Stan is the normal kid with the odd parents; Kyle is the kid that you get told is different because of his religion or race or whatever but there's really nothing different about him that a kid can see; Kenny is the poor kid who you're friends with because he knows all the dirty jokes (and when you're a bit older, can steal his parents' cigarettes and his older brother's porn); and Cartman is the rear end in a top hat kid that everyone hates but he always has the best toys and video games and he'll let you play with him if you're his "friend". They've mostly stuck to those tropes, except Cartman got cranked up to 27 because the writers think it's funny to see exactly how bad he can be and still have it vaguely believable that the others will still hang out with him.

Mooseontheloose
May 13, 2003
crazy people don't like me :(

Vandar posted:

That song isn't nearly as bad as people act like it is.

Didn't MTV and VH1 basically took a giant dump on it in the late 90s and 2000s by people too cool for it?

I mean it the nature of pop culture I guess. This was popular? Oh well actually it sucks now because we as a culture are too sophisticated/want real music crowd.

I admit, as someone who liked some nerdy/pop acts in the late 90s, I am highly influenced by the douciness that is late 90s nu-metal act and radio stations like WAAF that were liked by the literally worst people in my hometown.

Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this


letthereberock posted:

Yeah looking back, roughly 2000-2005 was a really dark time culturally where it really seemed like the right was ascendant and a lot of pop culture was catering to that, to an extent that would seem almost unthinkable today. The nationalism/jingoism coming from 9/11 was certainly part of it, but not the entire story.

Something that stands out to me was a kind of edgy contrarianism in response to the (percieved) sincere, do-good atmosphere of the 90s. I was the perfect age for this era and stuff like Family Guy felt incredibly refreshing at the time because it was a rejection of what seemed like a lot of very forced, artificial narratives about cultural harmony, which is probably why a lot of the humor is via parody of media format. The 90s had a lot of (what we thought of as) very formulaic diversity, like the classic example of the group of kids in a textbook photo where one is black, one is asian, one is hispanic, one is white, and one is in a wheelchair. In the moment, it felt like we were pushing back against the artficiality (something like "everything's great, so if I say these nasty things, you can't get offended, because it's not actually hurting anyone, and if you do get offended, then you're admitting that you failed"), but in retrospect it was also just a handy frame for bullying and racism, which is what we've all kind of figured out in the past decade and change.

Captain Monkey
Aug 23, 2007



Magic Hate Ball posted:

Something that stands out to me was a kind of edgy contrarianism in response to the (percieved) sincere, do-good atmosphere of the 90s. I was the perfect age for this era and stuff like Family Guy felt incredibly refreshing at the time because it was a rejection of what seemed like a lot of very forced, artificial narratives about cultural harmony, which is probably why a lot of the humor is via parody of media format. The 90s had a lot of (what we thought of as) very formulaic diversity, like the classic example of the group of kids in a textbook photo where one is black, one is asian, one is hispanic, one is white, and one is in a wheelchair. In the moment, it felt like we were pushing back against the artficiality (something like "everything's great, so if I say these nasty things, you can't get offended, because it's not actually hurting anyone, and if you do get offended, then you're admitting that you failed"), but in retrospect it was also just a handy frame for bullying and racism, which is what we've all kind of figured out in the past decade and change.

I think this is basically the arc of a lot of forums posters yeah. Myself included.

Mr Interweb
Aug 25, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!


letthereberock posted:

Yeah looking back, roughly 2000-2005 was a really dark time culturally where it really seemed like the right was ascendant and a lot of pop culture was catering to that, to an extent that would seem almost unthinkable today. The nationalism/jingoism coming from 9/11 was certainly part of it, but not the entire story.

honestly, i think is pretty accurate. i was looking back on those years (and the latter half of the 00s) with nostalgia goggles mainly cause i wasn't "political" back then, and since i didn't see a bunch of rightwing shitheads repeatedly tell me that juniper lee was feminist propaganda, i figured the Right didn't have as much of an imprint in media as they do now. in one sense, i guess this is probably a good thing in that gamergate probably didn't create a unique or long lasting impact as i thought, and that we just keep cycling through the same poo poo over and over again.

Disproportionation
Feb 20, 2011

Oh god it's the Clone Saga all over again.


Josef bugman posted:

I mean a lot of it was just swallowed up and became part of culture in general. How many Calls of Duty are we on now, for instance?

It's interesting to look at call of duty and how its general tone changed when it moved from a series about ww2 into a more contemporary setting and iirc that's because most of the people they would interview for research on the latter were still employed by the military, so they were less likely to offer a more nuanced account of their experiences.

bobjr
Oct 16, 2012

Roose is loose.



We have call of duty games now with levels that are just Benghazi with the names changed.

PhazonLink
Jul 17, 2010


rip Sean Smith/ vilerat. sure is weird how regressives stopped trying to get justice for him and the three other dude after 2016.

also didnt Michael Bay make a Mr Ben Ghazi movie in 2016 and it aged like spoiled milk even when the it was just a 2014/15 announcement?

The United States
Jul 18, 2004

Please grab the extinguisher


Melman v2

letthereberock posted:

Yeah looking back, roughly 2000-2005 was a really dark time culturally where it really seemed like the right was ascendant and a lot of pop culture was catering to that, to an extent that would seem almost unthinkable today. The nationalism/jingoism coming from 9/11 was certainly part of it, but not the entire story.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/4aymnq/how-a-flurry-of-flash-games-on-newgrounds-captured-the-grief-and-anger-of-911

https://medium.com/mammon-machine-zeal/ultraviolent-flash-games-after-9-11-b416b836f28e

Alexander Hamilton
Dec 29, 2008


I get annoyed when I watch an old western and it turns out that the protagonist is a former Confederate soldier. I end up cheering for the villain most of the time. The Outlaw Josey Wales is the most recent example but there are a lot of Westerns that show Confederates in a sympathetic light. Pretty weird!

Srice
Sep 11, 2011



Alexander Hamilton posted:

I get annoyed when I watch an old western and it turns out that the protagonist is a former Confederate soldier. I end up cheering for the villain most of the time. The Outlaw Josey Wales is the most recent example but there are a lot of Westerns that show Confederates in a sympathetic light. Pretty weird!

It even dates back to the silent era. For example The General was broadly based on a real story but made its hero part of the Confederacy instead of the Union.

Jezebel
Sep 6, 2004

Skal!



Speaking of inappropriate 80s "it's not sexual assault when it's a 16yr old boy! High five man!"...

Yall may have discussed this already but to celebrate my med school graduation, my friend and I got high last night and started watching Doogie Howser, MD. I think it may be the most inappropriate show I've EVER seen on TV.

https://youtu.be/dl8_HL-Pf9c

Both first two episodes involve 16yr old Doogie being sexually assaulted by adult women. There's a scene where Doogie and his father hitting on the same adult doctor.... While their mom/wife is right there listening. Basically every single scene is appalling. Not to mention the "16yr old doctor" Air Bud aspect. It ran for FOUR SEASONS.

That the previous generation thought this was acceptable should disqualify them from everything.

Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

Patron Fae
of
Broken Software


I loved this poo poo out of Doogie Howser, but to be fair, I was 8 when it started airing and a lot of it flew over my head.

Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

Patron Fae
of
Broken Software


Also, Doogie Howser came from David E. Kelley, of Picket Fences fame. :P

Mr Interweb
Aug 25, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!


saw an episode of gunsmoke a while back and the lovable, slow witted deputy was sympathetic to the confederacy

Fantastic Foreskin
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



The southern affiliates won't air it if you make them look like the bad guy.

LITERALLY A BIRD
Sep 27, 2008

I knew you were trouble
when you flew in




:catstare: :catstare: :catstare:

Phy
Jun 27, 2008





Fun Shoe

Alexander Hamilton posted:

I get annoyed when I watch an old western and it turns out that the protagonist is a former Confederate soldier. I end up cheering for the villain most of the time. The Outlaw Josey Wales is the most recent example but there are a lot of Westerns that show Confederates in a sympathetic light. Pretty weird!

I don't think it's weird, per se, in that I understand how post-war the slave states managed to spin their treachery with the lost cause lie, but it is kinda gross!

I was thinking about how Mal Reynolds in Firefly is coded as a former Confed, and now I wonder if that could have eventually tied into how half of known space in that show is supposed to be Chinese but there wasn't a single Asian on his ship

Asterite34
May 19, 2009




Alexander Hamilton posted:

I get annoyed when I watch an old western and it turns out that the protagonist is a former Confederate soldier. I end up cheering for the villain most of the time. The Outlaw Josey Wales is the most recent example but there are a lot of Westerns that show Confederates in a sympathetic light. Pretty weird!

God, I remember an episode of The Rifleman that had Chuck Conners try and teach his son tolerance and acceptance by hiring on a shell-shocked former Confederate soldier as a farmhand, and I think even defended him from a posse of former Unionists hunting him down to settle some score. Because nothing engenders tolerance than giving aid to Confederates! :downs:

I mean, I guess it depicted the guy more in a "man broken by a war he didn't believe in that will haunt him forever" kinda way instead of being some noble hero, but still, weird mixed message.

Veotax
May 16, 2006




bobjr posted:

We have call of duty games now with levels that are just Benghazi with the names changed.

There are also Call of Duty games where they take war crimes committed by the US and say "actually the Russians did this"

Casnorf
Jun 14, 2002

Never drive a car when you're a fish

Asterite34 posted:

God, I remember an episode of The Rifleman that had Chuck Conners try and teach his son tolerance and acceptance by hiring on a shell-shocked former Confederate soldier as a farmhand, and I think even defended him from a posse of former Unionists hunting him down to settle some score. Because nothing engenders tolerance than giving aid to Confederates! :downs:

I mean, I guess it depicted the guy more in a "man broken by a war he didn't believe in that will haunt him forever" kinda way instead of being some noble hero, but still, weird mixed message.

you uh

jjack229
Feb 14, 2008
Articulate your needs. I'm here to listen.


What the hell is this? I remember it being a show when I was a kid, but nothing specific. This is terrible.

hard counter
Jan 2, 2015





Alexander Hamilton posted:

I get annoyed when I watch an old western and it turns out that the protagonist is a former Confederate soldier. I end up cheering for the villain most of the time. The Outlaw Josey Wales is the most recent example but there are a lot of Westerns that show Confederates in a sympathetic light. Pretty weird!

as a quick background, historically there's a difference between first wave confederates, the idiots who joined the sedition immediately because they agreed with its wretched, underlying principles, and second wave confederates, dudes who, for their part, just wanted to stay out of the war when it started but were dragged into it when it came to their doorstep when their communities were either getting shelled by direct union attacks or raided during foraging parties by regular forces, OR irregular forces that were vaguely pro-union (there were essentially bands of lawless roving 'bushwackers' on both sides who used civil war as an excuse to loot and/or kill their neighbours in horrible, horrible acts of irregular warfare, some acts were so vile it would led many historians to describe many of those guerrilla leaders as pure psychopaths...now, i'm summarizing heaps of history quick and dirty, but there was certainly some awful, historical internecine conflict that left lasting scars in the psyches of the involved)

iirc josey wales as depicted in the film was definitely second wave, being provoked into joining a separate, guerrilla army of bushwackers who would target pro-union jayhawkers (a particular band of irregular 'border ruffians' who did the raids, as in the film) and their regular military support, after one of those irregular forces slaughtered his family at the start of the film - despite what one may assume from the premise, josey wales is still depicted as having significant moral failings he must overcome, he's not a 'good' confederate sympathizer, the film rejects that notion

i'm mentioning this because, in particular, the outlaw josey wales is taken as a classic example of the revisionist western genre, a genre that subverts and criticizes americana as seen in more typical westerns, by giving strong roles to women, people of colour, depicting native americans and their culture in a positive light, while also suggesting the lead protagonist may possess more of a morally ambiguous, anti-heroic nature that blurs right & wrong more than storytellers typically like, with the cumulative effect of ultimately criticizing american society and its values, and by taking the vaguely pro-confederate josey wales down this journey, the film is considered to have deeply engaged with that criticism of americana (at least for its era, i'm sure there's nothing groundbreaking about it now in 2021)

Asterite34
May 19, 2009





Okay yeah the episode probably treated the subject matter with more nuance and deftness than I'm giving it credit for here, it's been a million years since I saw that episode on cable and the current topic half-jogged the hazy recollection.

Torquemada
Oct 21, 2010

Drei Gläser


Shane is pretty egregious in this regard, Wilson (the black hat) is a Yankee whose worst insult is calling “Stonewall Jackson, Lee and all the rest of them rebs” trash.

Casnorf
Jun 14, 2002

Never drive a car when you're a fish

Asterite34 posted:

Okay yeah the episode probably treated the subject matter with more nuance and deftness than I'm giving it credit for here, it's been a million years since I saw that episode on cable and the current topic half-jogged the hazy recollection.
It was more your casual dehumanization, whether the episode handled it adeptly or not.

Grem
Mar 29, 2004

It's how her species communicates



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9ctmLwBWW0

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Asterite34
May 19, 2009




Casnorf posted:

It was more your casual dehumanization, whether the episode handled it adeptly or not.

...good point, especially when we're talking about something specifically about NOT dehumanizing people, even your former enemies, and my kinda breezy summary was in poor taste.

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