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  • Locked thread
2 penny bottle imp
Jun 11, 2008

I KNOW WHAT YOU DID LAST SCUMMER

this is a stickup posted:

I'm sorry that you're incapable of meta analysis because you haven't read those games, but you can go back and read other games, or not, and you don't have to take my word for it. I'm not going to turn my brain off and pretend meta doesn't exist.

Quickly flipping through yoir posts this game, something like 10-12 referenced past games. Thats about 15% of all your posts, and it's about half of your posts that aren't just fluff.

Poor logic aside (scrambling to find references that meet your agenda, whatever it is), this kind of insular meta play can't be good for longevity of the format.

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votefinder
Jul 6, 2010

scoop scoop


Votecount for Day 3

Mr. F! (4): got some chores tonight, The Ninth Layer, derp, yronic heroism, The Ninth Layer, 2 penny bottle imp, 2 penny bottle imp, 2 penny bottle imp, 2 penny bottle imp, The Ninth Layer
derp (3): Mr. F!, flerp, DivineCoffeeBinge
yronic heroism (2): this is a stickup, 2 penny bottle imp

Not Voting (0):

With 9 alive, it's 5 votes to execute. The current deadline is September 11th, 2017 at 8 p.m. CDT -- that's in about 42 minutes.

Mr. F!
Sep 21, 2016


2 penny bottle imp posted:

Quickly flipping through yoir posts this game, something like 10-12 referenced past games. Thats about 15% of all your posts, and it's about half of your posts that aren't just fluff.

Poor logic aside (scrambling to find references that meet your agenda, whatever it is), this kind of insular meta play can't be good for longevity of the format.

I agree with this which is why, I personally, think meta is a bunch of baloney, but to some people it helps inform their reads.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


While meta shouldn't be ignored - indeed pretty much can't be ignored - it's important, IMHO, to recognize its limitations. A lot of tone or style in posts stems from responses to other posters; a different mix of players in a game will generally tend to change the style of a poster's responses to them.

Meta can make for good supportive evidence, but it shouldn't be the foundation of a case, is what I'm saying; if your case depends on meta analysis to make sense then it's not a particularly good case and you should probably take a step back and examine your own biases.

(said the guy who hasn't played Mafia for years and so has no meta to examine)

2 penny bottle imp
Jun 11, 2008

I KNOW WHAT YOU DID LAST SCUMMER

Alright sorry Mr F any final thoughts before I throw the hammer? I think we've gone as far as we can Day3.

sentimental snail
Nov 22, 2007

DID YOU SEE MY
PEYOTE QUEEN?


derp's claim bothers me more than mr f's, but I still think mr f is the objectively correct choice. if mr f isn't scum, I'll deal with derp tonight. ##vote mr f

as to the unexplained kill, rather than sk, I feel it's more likely this game that we've got scum with more than one killing ability, probably a poison or one off. due to my own role, I suppose could also buy kash being a lover.

2 penny bottle imp posted:

Quickly flipping through yoir posts this game, something like 10-12 referenced past games. Thats about 15% of all your posts, and it's about half of your posts that aren't just fluff.

Poor logic aside (scrambling to find references that meet your agenda, whatever it is), this kind of insular meta play can't be good for longevity of the format.

as I've said, I haven't had strong opinions about anyone all game. I'm usually a pretty aggressive player and will not hesitate to attack on all fronts if I feel many people are scummy. I don't feel that way this game.

disagree with the second part because meta is typically a small part of scum hunting.

you neglect to mention that the large majority of my posts this game are talking about one person, and one specific type of post. some one asked for proof, I provided it because I knew exactly where to look. I remember those things happening in those games, and it's very simple to get to them through votefinder. I don't need proof for myself.

Mr. F! posted:

I agree with this which is why, I personally, think meta is a bunch of baloney, but to some people it helps inform their reads.

you watched me catch your scum mate with meta d1 in the very game I just brought up

Mr. F!
Sep 21, 2016




Somberbrero
Feb 14, 2009

The Pit Awaits


Votecount for Day 3

Mr. F! (5): got some chores tonight, The Ninth Layer, derp, yronic heroism, The Ninth Layer, 2 penny bottle imp, 2 penny bottle imp, 2 penny bottle imp, 2 penny bottle imp, The Ninth Layer, this is a stickup
derp (3): Mr. F!, flerp, DivineCoffeeBinge
yronic heroism (1): this is a stickup, 2 penny bottle imp, this is a stickup

Not Voting (0):

With 9 alive, it's 5 votes to execute. The current deadline is September 11th, 2017 at 8 p.m. CDT -- that's in about 27 minutes.

An unseasonable chill sweeps through the town, as if in retribution for Lychford turning away a Prince of the Winter Court. What discussion is had that week takes place in pubs, coffee shops, and by the fireside, and the talk grows as heated as any flame.

A recluse, even among witches, Mildred is rarely seen outside her home, even as the accusations against her grow. Her old bones simply can't take the dreadful chill. As one by one her coven rejects her, she is left with little choice. Before the week is out, there is a small 'for sale' sign on her lawn, as she leaves Lychford for parts unknown. The house never sells, but those who look through the window sometimes swear that they can see a single eye rotating endlessly upon the windowsill.


Mr. F!, Mildred Huggins, Lychford Watcher was run out of town day three!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoXBmlWMIVg
Keep looking, keep looking for somewhere to be,
Well, you're wasting your time, they not stupid like he is.
Meanwhile leaves are still falling, you're too blind to see.


actions please! 24 hours at the most, but sooner is better.

Somberbrero
Feb 14, 2009

The Pit Awaits


The news runs through Lychford like a live current. The lead Tesco spokesperson was found dead by the side of the road. Quickly though, shock turned to outrage as even a casual examination of his documents revealed a huge numbers of bribes made to local government officials, council members, and influential parties in the Lychford area. So great was the outcry that the fact that he was found fully exsanguinated was hardly mentioned.

derp, Yusef Jordan, Tesco Godfather was found drained of blood night three!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EgtZuhhiyI
No one understands
No one knows my plan
Why the dancing, shouting
Why the shrieks of pain
The lovely music
Why the smell of burning autumn leaves


Across town, a man wakes up for the first time in months. He looks around his empty home, coming to slowly realize that his dreams were true. His wife was gone, many months now. She had seemed so real in his dreams, he could remember her touch as if it were still on him. And the cat... no, he'd never had a cat, had he? Then why did he remember one?

Hitting him all at once, it's too much. He doesn't even bother locking the front door, Jerry simply gets in the lorry and drives. He drives very far, and we do not see him again. The cat did exist though, and we can only presume it grew to haunt Jerry's dreams, if Jerry could dream at all anymore. For now though, the cat-thing scratched and howled at a rune-bound lockbox at the bottom of Lake Lychford.


flerp, The Cat Thatís Actually a Monster Mind Controlling Jerry Gargis The Councilmember, Monster-Aligned Ninja relocated out of Lychford night three!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bntot9LAY08
And who by brave assent, who by accident,
Who in solitude, who in this mirror,
Who by his lady's command, who by his own hand,
Who in mortal chains, who in power,
And who shall I say is calling?






Votecount for Day 4



Not Voting (6): 2 penny bottle imp, DivineCoffeeBinge, got some chores tonight, The Ninth Layer, this is a stickup, yronic heroism

With 6 alive, it's 4 votes to execute. The current deadline is September 13th, 2017 at 8 p.m. CDT -- that's in about 1 day, 21 hours.

sentimental snail
Nov 22, 2007

DID YOU SEE MY
PEYOTE QUEEN?


so I guess it was flam+flerp and derp+imp

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


In a fit of nostalgia I went and looked back through old Mafia games I was in (thanks Votefinder for keeping track of that stuff!).

TNL and RF/Opop were players in my very first game of Mafia. That was six fuckin' years ago. I just thought that was neat.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


Also Somberbrero ran a game of Tontine that was super-fun, maybe that was the game that made me think of Kashuno as a Bad Person since he cruelly betrayed me in that game

got some chores tonight
Feb 18, 2012

honk honk whats for lunch...


hm

2 penny bottle imp
Jun 11, 2008

I KNOW WHAT YOU DID LAST SCUMMER

So basically Im wrong about everything. Nice, nice.

2 penny bottle imp
Jun 11, 2008

I KNOW WHAT YOU DID LAST SCUMMER

Oh ya so Derp told me in mason chats (and alluded in here) that he got "secret info" that flamander was scum and TNL was town.

Why would he do that unless TNL was scum? Because Flamander flipped scum, so why else give up a scumbuddy except for a long con to protect another?

## vote TNL

got some chores tonight
Feb 18, 2012

honk honk whats for lunch...


2 penny bottle imp posted:

Oh ya so Derp told me in mason chats (and alluded in here) that he got "secret info" that flamander was scum and TNL was town.

Why would he do that unless TNL was scum? Because Flamander flipped scum, so why else give up a scumbuddy except for a long con to protect another?

## vote TNL

flam and derp were on different scum teams

got some chores tonight
Feb 18, 2012

honk honk whats for lunch...


or derp was an sk

got some chores tonight
Feb 18, 2012

honk honk whats for lunch...


2 penny bottle imp posted:

Oh ya so Derp told me in mason chats (and alluded in here) that he got "secret info" that flamander was scum and TNL was town.

Why would he do that unless TNL was scum? Because Flamander flipped scum, so why else give up a scumbuddy except for a long con to protect another?

## vote TNL

can you provide full details about your role

2 penny bottle imp
Jun 11, 2008

I KNOW WHAT YOU DID LAST SCUMMER


Ahhh, okay I missed the monster vs tesco thing. I assumed Godfather implied + goons, but I guess that's not a 100% reliable meta assumption.

I am just an unconfirmed town mason. I had to pick someone to recruit N0, and I recruited Derp early because of his Doc claim. I'd like to say I was impartial and skeptical of him the whole time, but I see now I was blinded by my early choice to recruit him.

Derp you sunofabitch you lied to me!

2 penny bottle imp
Jun 11, 2008

I KNOW WHAT YOU DID LAST SCUMMER

PS ## unvote until I can think about this TNL thing.

sentimental snail
Nov 22, 2007

DID YOU SEE MY
PEYOTE QUEEN?


2 penny bottle imp posted:

Ahhh, okay I missed the monster vs tesco thing. I assumed Godfather implied + goons, but I guess that's not a 100% reliable meta assumption.

in this scenario, that goon would be you, the person who has out of thread contact with the non town godfather, and is also posting forced awkward things like this



2 penny bottle imp posted:

I'd like to say I was impartial and skeptical of him the whole time, but I see now I was blinded by my early choice to recruit him.

Derp you sunofabitch you lied to me!

sentimental snail
Nov 22, 2007

DID YOU SEE MY
PEYOTE QUEEN?


you're right that it doesn't necessarily mean derp has goons though.

yronic heroism
Oct 31, 2008


##vote 2 penny bottle imp

Derp scumbuddy found.

sentimental snail
Nov 22, 2007

DID YOU SEE MY
PEYOTE QUEEN?


yronic heroism posted:

##vote 2 penny bottle imp

Derp scumbuddy found.



gonna hold off on voting until people have all checked in etc

got some chores tonight
Feb 18, 2012

honk honk whats for lunch...


claiming unconfirmed masonry with a scum player would be an insanely baller scum play i love it

2 penny bottle imp
Jun 11, 2008

I KNOW WHAT YOU DID LAST SCUMMER

got some chores tonight posted:

claiming unconfirmed masonry with a scum player would be an insanely baller scum play i love it

TBH I was never even going to announce the masonry but derp announced it really early and I felt obligated to try and save him because of some stupid sunk-cost fallacy social obligation.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



I'll be looking over earlier days since we should have a lot of info now from flerp and derp's flips.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



We should probably consider a mass claim too.

I can't imagine there is more than 1 scum player alive, judging by the flips there were two scum factions (Monster-aligned and Tesco-aligned) and if that's the case then I'd be surprised if either faction was more than 2 scum deep.

derp flipping "Tesco Godfather" is an interesting flip though.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


Okay, let's see what we've got. Our remaining players in alphabetical order:

2 penny bottle imp hasn't really advanced any cases that haven't been made by others, which always reads scummy to me, with the notable exception of the now-unprovable "derp told me in mason chat that TNL was town so TNL must be scum." Unconfirmed mason would be a hell of a scum play, but I'm not sure if I want to give him that much credit. On the other hand he only made that play once derp laid the groundwork. Of all remaining players, however, scummiest by far.

DivineCoffeeBinge is, of course, above reproach.

got some chores tonight was dead certain on Mr. F!, stayed dead certain even as the question of derp came up, but just as dead certain on flerp. Could be a case of Tesco-scum knowing who monster-scum were? Maybe? gently caress I don't know this game is hard.

The Ninth Layer is quite good and has played a whole lot of Mafia, which begs the question of how the heck he is still alive. While I'm not ready to get on board with the infamous Cap'n Andy Gambit (i.e. "scum want to get rid of experienced players first, therefore as the game progresses the experienced players who aren't killed by scum are very probably scum and should be killed," and can you tell I spent a few hours reading through my old Mafia games?), it bears mentioning. Kashuno alluded to his towniness in what I've been interpreting as the results of his N1 investigation, though I suppose the possibility of a Naive or Insane Cop shouldn't be discounted (an Insane Cop might be a good fit for the flavor, honestly, but I can't really get behind flavor arguments). I protected him last night thinking that scum would go after the one guy who seemed as confirmed townie as you can get, figuring that if someone else died that would raise some questions, but instead last night was a scum-on-scum bloodbath so who the gently caress even knows. His continued existence makes me nervous, though.

this is a stickup tunneled in on yronic all of the early game, seems to have (mostly) abandoned that. I'm curious what about his own role makes him think the possibility of Kash as a lover is plausible. "so I guess it was flam+flerp and derp+imp" is a good conclusion and for the most part I like it.

yronic heroism is quiet and hard for me to read, given that most of his posts have been made under the pressure of stickup's tunneling, but has never read as scummy to me as others seem to have been thinking.

Other thoughts:

The flip of derp as Godfather confuses the hell out of me, as it throws Mr. F!'s description of seeing him visit Kash into confusion; I have always been under the impression that the whole point of having a Godfather is that they don't kill anyone, they send other people out to kill people. Having said that, if we're operating under the assumption that there are 2 teams of 2 scum and the other Tesco-aligned scum is a framer or some other non-goon role, that's not definitive.

The other possibility is that there are three Monster-aligned scum and derp's Tesco alignment is (was) indicative of an SK or Survivor or some other neutral or neutral-ish role, which perhaps shouldn't be discounted (note that TNL discounts it immediately, unprompted).

flerp's Ninja flip is also concerning, as the only solid detail we've had for a few days has come from a now-dead watcher, and Ninjas are traditionally, as I understand it, immune to being spotted by watchers. Possibly a non-vig explanation for the two multi-kill nights, if the Ninja needed time to get ready or something? I genuinely have no idea, it's the first game I've ever encountered that role in so I'm not familiar with the way power roles tend to be arrayed to balance it.

My personal list, then, in order of scummiest to towniest, at this time:
1. imp
2. TNL
3. chores
4. stickup
5. yronic
6. me, because of course it is

Subject to change based on getting some more caffeine and thinking about it some more - flerp's flip really upended my prior suppositions, and I need to do some rereading. But that's where I stand at the moment.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


Actually the more I think on it the more I don't like the notion of Kash possibly having been naive or insane because that seems like a dramatic weakening of a town power role in a game where the scum include a jailor and a ninja.

2 penny bottle imp
Jun 11, 2008

I KNOW WHAT YOU DID LAST SCUMMER

DivineCoffeeBinge posted:

Actually the more I think on it the more I don't like the notion of Kash possibly having been naive or insane because that seems like a dramatic weakening of a town power role in a game where the scum include a jailor and a ninja.

* and a godfather.

2 penny bottle imp
Jun 11, 2008

I KNOW WHAT YOU DID LAST SCUMMER

Also - Tesco Godfather could imply that Tesco is masterminding the monsters (who are goons).

This could mean that yes in fact TNL is scum, aligned with Derp.

But at this point I dont know if Im confident of anything any more.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


2 penny bottle imp posted:

* and a godfather.

Eh, I don't see that a Godfather's existence would have any effect on making a cop naive or insane - even a normal, entirely sane cop is still going to get a town result from a GF, so the fact that a naive cop would get a town result from a GF makes no difference overall.

Which is a pretty arcane and picayune thing to disagree on, I admit.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



2 penny bottle imp posted:

Also - Tesco Godfather could imply that Tesco is masterminding the monsters (who are goons).

This could mean that yes in fact TNL is scum, aligned with Derp.

But at this point I dont know if Im confident of anything any more.

This doesn't explain why the two flips apparently killed each other yesterday. Flerp claimed vigilante and was likely the person who killed derp; that same vigilante claim is likely why they killed him in turn. Wouldn't make any sense for them to work together.

2 penny bottle imp
Jun 11, 2008

I KNOW WHAT YOU DID LAST SCUMMER

DivineCoffeeBinge posted:

Eh, I don't see that a Godfather's existence would have any effect on making a cop naive or insane - even a normal, entirely sane cop is still going to get a town result from a GF, so the fact that a naive cop would get a town result from a GF makes no difference overall.

Which is a pretty arcane and picayune thing to disagree on, I admit.

I just mean that it reduces the cop's overall effectivness by making a result wrong, so dealing w piecing together insane results is yet another truth-obstruction.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



My best guess is that derp was a serial killer and the person who has been "relocating" players.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Somberbrero posted:

Votecount for Day 3

Mr. F! (5): got some chores tonight, The Ninth Layer, derp, yronic heroism, The Ninth Layer, 2 penny bottle imp, 2 penny bottle imp, 2 penny bottle imp, 2 penny bottle imp, The Ninth Layer, this is a stickup
derp (3): Mr. F!, flerp, DivineCoffeeBinge
yronic heroism (1): this is a stickup, 2 penny bottle imp, this is a stickup

Not Voting (0):

With 9 alive, it's 5 votes to execute. The current deadline is September 11th, 2017 at 8 p.m. CDT -- that's in about 27 minutes.

Some thoughts just glancing at the votecount:

Assuming tentatively that Monsters are scum and that Tesco is third-party, scum players in this instance could have gone either way on the Mr.F!/derp split; they would know neither player was true scum. Probably they would have been inclined to believe Mr.F!'s watcher claim, as they would know there's at least one other nightkiller out there from Kash's flip.

With that in mind DivineCoffeeBinge's vote looks bad in isolation, he votes derp for claiming a "broken role" which is something scum may have worried about. However I'm not sure that two remaining Monsters in this instance both vote together while all the town players focus on the Watcher claim, the path of least resistance yesterday probably would have been agreeing with town and voting Mr.F!/Magnus.

Chores and yronic both had their votes on Magnus all day. Chores even said "ok that's a wrap" fairly early on, and yronic's vote put Magnus at -1 Those are imo the worst votes just looking at the votecount.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



I looked over chores and really the biggest thing that stands out for me is he called flamander scum very early and also called flerp as the "third scumbuddy" even though he was wrong about the second. I get suspicious when people are a little too accurate with their scum picks because it starts to look like scum knowledge. Chores also took a little while to vote flamander despite claiming he was "9000% sure" he was scum, which could be scum wanting bus credit while waiting to see if other candidates developed.

Overall though I think chores has shown he's scumhunting. He was first on Magnus and voted him before the watcher claim, I felt the same way and can't really blame him for staying suspicious of Magnus post-watcher claim like I was. His suspicions while not very well articulated have at least been consistent; he opened Day 3 talking about how he was suspicious of Mags or stickup and despite voting Magnus all day he still brought up his suspicion of stickup a few times. I'm a little paranoid that maybe he just bused Flamander down but overall I have a town impression on him and don't see myself voting him today.

DivineCoffeeBinge
Mar 3, 2011

Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company


Something else I just thought of that bears noting: I've been assuming, I think we've all been assuming, that Kashuno's "well I reread the posts and TNL looks like town to me now" bit was a softclaim, but since he never made any definitive claims it's entirely possible that he investigated someone else and changed his mind on TNL for exactly the reason he posted.

That is to say, I'm not certain we can count on Kashuno's about-face as an investigation result.

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The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Yronic was the fourth vote on Magnus more or less in response to the watcher claim, expressed disbelief about various parts of the claim (like why the night 1 action wasn't included in Mag's original claim or why he targeted Kash both nights). He hammered Flamander on day 2 but otherwise stayed focused on stickup and didn't seem overtly suspicious of Flamander. I don't give Yronic much credit for this vote since there was at least one other person around (stickup) who could also have hammered and for Flamander the writing was on the wall. Lots of activity yesterday, seemed continually suspicious of stickup even while pushing Magnus, few interactions or mentions of flerp (although this may be true for a lot of us). Overall scummy read on yronic but nothing that makes me super convinced he's scum.

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