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Max literally uses her powers to manipulate people into doing exactly what she wants every single chance she can without even slightly stopping and thinking about the moral issues that causes. She is a terrible person.
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Sep 12, 2017 15:27
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I think it's harsh to describe Max as a terrible person, although you can certainly choose to make more questionable moral choices. She's just an average teenager thrust into extraordinary circumstances who tries to do the right thing, but is totally unprepared to face the consequences of her actions, as almost anybody in that situation would be. The game actively fights against your desire to either beatify or villainize any one member of the cast, except perhaps Jefferson who is a fuckhead no matter what.
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Sep 12, 2017 15:36
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exquisite tea posted:I think it's harsh to describe Max as a terrible person, although you can certainly choose to make more questionable moral choices. She's just an average teenager thrust into extraordinary circumstances who tries to do the right thing, but is totally unprepared to face the consequences of her actions, as almost anybody in that situation would be. The game actively fights against your desire to either beatify or villainize any one member of the cast, except perhaps Jefferson who is a fuckhead no matter what. I agree with you, but that does not really change the fact that Max uses her powers to do things like manipulate Dana into telling her about her pregnancy, manipulate Daniel into going to the Vortex Club party, and sandbag people that she does not like. And that's kind of the point, right? That she eventually realizes that these actions are general meaningless and also she has no right to decide the best paths for others. However, in my eyes it does not change the fact that she essentially decided to play god for a few days without thinking of the any moral repercussions.
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Sep 12, 2017 15:53
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exquisite tea posted:I think it's harsh to describe Max as a terrible person, although you can certainly choose to make more questionable moral choices. She's just an average teenager thrust into extraordinary circumstances who tries to do the right thing, but is totally unprepared to face the consequences of her actions, as almost anybody in that situation would be. The game actively fights against your desire to either beatify or villainize any one member of the cast, except perhaps Jefferson who is a fuckhead no matter what. In a sense, Max and Jefferson are two sides of the same coin. They're both photographers who use their talents to manipulate others into doing what they want and both of them share aspects of Max's namesake Holden Caulfield (specifically the fixation on preserving innocence, though they have different ways of going about it). Only real difference is that Max at least tries to maintain some kind of moral fiber despite making some questionable decisions throughout the game. Though even that starts to erode by the end when she's willing to sacrifice an entire town full of people just so she can stay with Chloe.
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Sep 12, 2017 15:54
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Isn't almost all of Max's terrible behavior optional? Also, she's a teenager. Pretentious and narcissistic are how all aspiring teenage artists roll.
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Sep 12, 2017 15:58
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Paul Zuvella posted:And that's kind of the point, right? That she eventually realizes that these actions are general meaningless and also she has no right to decide the best paths for others. However, in my eyes it does not change the fact that she essentially decided to play god for a few days without thinking of the any moral repercussions. I think that is easier for us to judge already knowing how the entire story will unfold, but from Max's perspective she has no ability to conceive just how deeply her actions are twisting reality until it's already too late. And while she uses her powers toward petty ends as well as heroic ones over the course of the narrative, her first performative act is borne out of the desire to save another human being's life, who coincidentally ends up being her best friend from childhood. The real tragedy of Life is Strange is that Max cannot tell if her powers will be used for good, yet she is invited at every opportunity to try.
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Sep 12, 2017 16:46
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precision posted:Isn't almost all of Max's terrible behavior optional? Even discounting those, she's still a hypocrite and her love for Chloe eventually blossoms into an unhealthy obsession that consumes her life. Not to mention the fact that she's basically responsible for turning Chloe into what she is, not just abandoning her for years with little to no contact but thanks to time travel fuckery she also (albeit unwillingly) had a hand in Chloe's dad dying, killing Chloe herself in two alternate timelines (one of them literally) and if you choose to sacrifice the Bay then the rest of her family is gone thanks to Max as well. By all rights, Chloe should despise Max with every fiber of her being. But instead she chooses to save both Max and the town by offering her life up, making Chloe (and to a lesser extent, David) the only characters in the game to do something close to a truly heroic act (the closest Max comes is saving Kate, and even that is up to chance and still involves manipulation of some kind). Max has a good heart and admittedly is just a kid in way over her head but I can't in good conscience really call her a hero by any stretch of the imagination. Larryb fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Sep 12, 2017 |
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Sep 12, 2017 17:16
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are you seriously trying to put the car crash onto max
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Sep 12, 2017 17:20
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Max is deeply flawed and that's what makes her cool and good, much like Mae from Night in the Woods
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Sep 12, 2017 17:29
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Mae's character is very similar to Max in that both become obsessed with trying to piece things back together to how they were before some presumptive loss of innocence, although without the benefit of time powers Mae comes off as a far more flawed human being. Her entire scene with Bea at the party was like watching somebody melt in real time.
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Sep 12, 2017 17:37
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Tired Moritz posted:are you seriously trying to put the car crash onto max I might have been a bit harsh with that point but In the sense that she technically had the opportunity to stop him yes, but only in the most indirect way (hence the time travel fuckery part, by interfering she now technically shares some of the blame though there honestly wasn't any real good choice on that situation), plus she sure as hell felt like she killed him when she let him walk out the door after returning from the alternate timeline at the very least. Max is more a victim of circumstance than anything else. In fact, I believe the only major time she winds up helping someone without the universe punishing her for it later is with Kate on the roof. Max is a tragic character but not necessarily a heroic one (and to be fair, a lot of it wasn't completely her fault, if you give a teenager superpowers it's almost garunteed something's going to go wrong eventually even with the best of intentions). There's never really a point where she actually goes out of her way to intentionally hurt someone and she never asked to suddenly be granted these powers but the results remain the same regardless. Larryb fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Sep 12, 2017 |
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Sep 12, 2017 18:00
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I would say there is a pretty huge difference between Mae and Max in the fact that Mae is literally mentally ill. I also think Mae is a much more interesting and rounded character, but that also might stem from me thinking NitW is a better overall story and product than Life is Strange. Ultimately I see as a tragic figure. I don't see her as a good person by almost any stretch of the means because many of her actions are selfish and create the snowball that is a lot of the events of the story. She has to make a lot of stupid decisions, some that are necessary for the story to play out the way it needs to, some not. But again, I see that as the entire point of the game. In a bit of great design, both possible endings are the exact same in terms of Max's character. She either: a) Decides that her actions have been detrimental and harmful and go back in time and finally let Chloe die to fix it b) Decide that her actions have been detrimental and harmful and finally stop trying to fix things because she know she can't and let the snowball she created crush the town. Either way Max comes to the same conclusion; things cant go the way I want them all the time and she's just been flailing around and making things worse. Max has to be immature and shortsighted, otherwise the story has no weight or meaning.
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Sep 12, 2017 18:22
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I would still argue that Max is a heroic figure, because even when faced with the idyllic ending where she gets everything she wants and is the most popular girl in school and everybody loves her, she willingly and selflessly throws herself back into hell to save Chloe.
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Sep 12, 2017 19:02
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Paul Zuvella posted:b) Decide that her actions have been detrimental and harmful and finally stop trying to fix things because she know she can't and let the snowball she created crush the town. This was my main thought process for choosing to save Chloe and sacrifice the town, really You finally come to the conclusion that time travel is bad and the only way to fix it is with more time travel? No, stop Max, just think about this. It is a pretty lovely thing to do to kill a town but there was foreshadowing for it throughout LiS hinting that the town was dying and nature just wanted to reclaim what it once had. And lo and behold, after the storm, nature is already filling the void. That, and I do like to think at least some people survived.
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Sep 12, 2017 19:07
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Yeah, they pretty much flat out tell you "This town is cursed and rotten and you're probably doing everyone a favor by letting the tornado rip it out by the roots."
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Sep 12, 2017 19:09
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The bae/bay decision is essentially a variant on the classic railroad dilemma in ethics. A train is barreling down the tracks uncontrollably and if not stopped, will kill 5 people. You as the operator can pull a lever to switch the tracks and have it kill only one person, but you then have the moral burden of directly sealing the fate of another human being. Except in this case, the 5 people are an entire town and the one person on the other track is your best friend from childhood who's had the shittiest life imaginable.
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Sep 12, 2017 19:16
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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, a great man once said that. The only good ending is the one where Chloe is hella dead. In other news, it's kind of sad that there is literally nothing to talk about in LiS:BtS episode 1 and we are back to talking about the first games ending. I think the farther I get from the new series, the more disappointed I feel. I'm thinking making it so it was Rachel and Chloe first meeting, instead of having their relationship already established was a huge mistake.
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Sep 12, 2017 19:19
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We can talk about how the Steam achievements for Episode 2 were leaked today and one of them is called Feels on Wheels. I believe it was Alexander Pope who once remarked: Is this the game that launched a thousand 'ships?
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Sep 12, 2017 19:22
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Paul Zuvella posted:The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, a great man once said that. Yeah, starting the prequel with Chloe and Rachel already knowing each other seems like a bit of a misstep to me. Not to mention that with only 3 episodes to work with they're now going to have to cram as much plot into the remaining two as they can in order to make up for that (not sure how they're going to do that without it feeling rushed though, maybe a time jump or two might work).
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Sep 12, 2017 19:24
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I did some additional reading on BtS and Deck Nine have said this whole prequel is allegedly going to only take place over the span of 3-4 days like the original, so I don't think they're going to attempt cramming in all the plotlines leading up to Rachel's disappearance.
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Sep 12, 2017 19:28
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exquisite tea posted:I did some additional reading on BtS and Deck Nine have said this whole prequel is allegedly going to only take place over the span of 3-4 days like the original, so I don't think they're going to attempt cramming in all the plotlines leading up to Rachel's disappearance. That just makes me question even more what this game's plot is supposed to be about then. So far all we've got is that Chloe is being stalked by a raven spirit for some reason and Rachel has family issues. Larryb fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Sep 12, 2017 |
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Sep 12, 2017 19:31
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exquisite tea posted:I started up the first episode of LiS again and drat, the moment Max puts on those headphones and To All of You starts playing is just magical. The title scrim might as well have said "you will be obsessed with this game for years to come" at that point. Yeah, first time round that bit made me realise i was about to play something a bit different. That couple of seconds of silence when Max blocks out all the bullshit hallway chatter before the track starts still gives me goosebumps.
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Sep 12, 2017 19:47
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Now I want to overlay "Head over heels" by Tears over that scene.
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Sep 12, 2017 20:35
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Speaking of music, the Before The Storm soundtrack is amazing.
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Sep 12, 2017 21:32
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It is and I really want them to release a vinyl edition that is not limited to like ten copies like they did with the last one.
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Sep 13, 2017 07:54
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AlexF posted:It is and I really want them to release a vinyl edition that is not limited to like ten copies like they did with the last one. Well you can get all the original music in one album on iTunes this time around.
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Sep 13, 2017 10:11
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exquisite tea posted:Except in this case, the 5 people are an entire town and the one person on the other track is your best friend from childhood who's had the shittiest life imaginable. I think it's more like the one where you have to push the fat guy in front of the train. Except the fat guy is your childhood friend, and you've got no idea if it will actually stop the train or just kill one more person. Also you've already pushed other things in front of it this train and other trains and they have kept on trucking, and most of the time pushing stuff just seems to make the problem worse somehow, by like derailing the train and killing everyone on board instead. To push or not to push, that is the question. Anyone know when the final episode of this prequel will be coming out? I want to play, but don't really do the episodic thing.
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Sep 13, 2017 15:47
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They said 8-10 week schedule so the next episode could be coming out as soon as October, although we all know how development went longer than anticipated for Season One.
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Sep 13, 2017 15:50
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I admit that I'm really curious to see where this is going, especially if, like you said, the game only takes place over the course of a week like the original did (if that's the case then any setup for the first game is probably going to be more symbolic than literal). I'm guessing that Rachel is going to be the driving force behind BtS's plot much like Chloe was in LiS. The raven will also probably play a bigger part than the doe in the first game did and there's also the whole deal with the woman in white, mainly because the final scene with her gave off kind of an unsettling vibe to me. Also, somewhat related but even if Rachel doesn't have some sort of wind powers the scream she made at the end sounded eerily like the cry of a bird. Perhaps her and the raven spirit that's following Chloe are linked to each other in some way? I have a feeling some big things are about to go down in the next part. Three episodes (plus a bonus episode for the deluxe version taking place prior to the start of BtS) seems way too short for a game like this in retrospect but hopefully they'll be able to pull it off. Larryb fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Sep 13, 2017 |
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Sep 13, 2017 16:20
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exquisite tea posted:They said 8-10 week schedule so the next episode could be coming out as soon as October, although we all know how development went longer than anticipated for Season One. I really depends on how long they've been working on it before it was announced. I would actually imagine that way more of the work was done before the first episode was released than last time. The only reason why 3 episodes seems short right now is because they spent literally the entire first episode setting up 2 characters relationship and only vaguely allude to things that are actual plot. They now have 2 episodes to do an entire rising and falling action which seems crazy.
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Sep 13, 2017 17:47
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Sep 13, 2017 17:58
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c1TdqJUtg9Y
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Sep 13, 2017 18:44
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I WAS EATING THOSE BEANS ARE YOU loving INSANE
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Sep 13, 2017 18:51
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Somewhere during this chapter I did have a moment where I was like "Oh yeah, Rachel's probably boinking Frank around this point too. I see why the Teen Angst Tornado blew up now."
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Sep 14, 2017 14:39
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DeathChicken posted:Somewhere during this chapter I did have a moment where I was like "Oh yeah, Rachel's probably boinking Frank around this point too. I see why the Teen Angst Tornado blew up now." The Rachel/Frank stuff wasn't until way later, they were seeing each other when Rachel disappeared, which happens in 3 years. There is no way that this game is going to do anything but allude to that.
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Sep 14, 2017 15:02
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Yeah, showing that kind of stuff might have made more sense if Rachel was the player character rather than Chloe (which admittedly was my intial thought when the first screenshots of this game were released), but as it stands there are just too many events that Chloe wasn't around for and didn't know about until later in Life is Strange. Based on what we know, my guess at this point is that Before the Storm is just going to be its own self-contained story with maybe a few allusions to the first game here and there.
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Sep 14, 2017 15:17
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Larryb posted:Yeah, showing that kind of stuff might have made more sense if Rachel was the player character rather than Chloe (which admittedly was my intial thought when the first screenshots of this game were released), but as it stands there are just too many events that Chloe wasn't around for and didn't know about until later in Life is Strange. yeah, there will be references to storms and wind and they will tell the story about how much rachel's dad sucks and what the gently caress is the deal with the creepy smoking lady and that's it.
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Sep 14, 2017 15:20
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There's totally gonna be a scene in Ep. 3 where Principal Wells is bragging "and we have a new art teacher coming in next year, he's widely known in the photography world and Blackwell is very lucky to have him" followed by an audible ~gulp~ noise.
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Sep 14, 2017 15:22
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Paul Zuvella posted:yeah, there will be references to storms and wind and they will tell the story about how much rachel's dad sucks and what the gently caress is the deal with the creepy smoking lady and that's it. Additionally, that Damon Merrick guy they mentioned at the beginning of Episode 1 might come into play later and the raven that's currently stalking Chloe is probably important as well (though probably about on the level of Max's doe, if not a bit more so). As far as direct allusions go, the only thing that might be possible is maybe a flash-forward at the very end of the game (like maybe a shot of blue-haired Chloe standing outside Blackwell or something. Actually, throw in a riff from Spanish Sahara or something in the background and I could kind of see that working as an effective ending.). Even so, based on the first game and the fact that the final episode is titled "Hell is Empty" (though to be fair, there are at least two interpretations of that), I'm still not expecting that happy of an ending out of this game (though maybe not as dark as it would have been if they went all the way at least). Larryb fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Sep 14, 2017 |
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Sep 14, 2017 15:56
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exquisite tea posted:There's totally gonna be a scene in Ep. 3 where Principal Wells is bragging "and we have a new art teacher coming in next year, he's widely known in the photography world and Blackwell is very lucky to have him" followed by an audible ~gulp~ noise. I'm gonna guess that its more than that, he'll physically be in Blackwell for like an interview or something.
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Sep 14, 2017 17:19
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