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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours


In the Oakland case, the officers accused an charged were referring each other to an underage sex worker. That is a literal definition of a trafficking ring and it's a much more depressing and common scenario than whatever ethical fantasy you could dream up, much more often cops are doing poo poo like lying to cover each other's asses, doing "random stops" to get their numbers up, planting drugs and guns, abusing people in custody.

I was absolutely amazed when I actually did reading on sexual assault in the prison system and learned that less than 5 percent of the cases cited are sexual assaults by other inmates. Even if that phenomenon is massively underreported (and it likely is) the disproportionate focus away from institutional abuse is alarming.

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Sir Lemming
Jan 27, 2009

It's a piece of JUNK!

Maybe it is not rape, yet still a bad thing.

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours


If you don't think it's rape, you don't know what "rape" means.

El Gallinero Gros
Mar 17, 2010



HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:

In the Oakland case, the officers accused an charged were referring each other to an underage sex worker. That is a literal definition of a trafficking ring and it's a much more depressing and common scenario than whatever ethical fantasy you could dream up, much more often cops are doing poo poo like lying to cover each other's asses, doing "random stops" to get their numbers up, planting drugs and guns, abusing people in custody.

I was absolutely amazed when I actually did reading on sexual assault in the prison system and learned that less than 5 percent of the cases cited are sexual assaults by other inmates. Even if that phenomenon is massively underreported (and it likely is) the disproportionate focus away from institutional abuse is alarming.

Wasn't she like, 14?

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours


El Gallinero Gros posted:

Wasn't she like, 14?

Not that I recall, but I'm sure it's not the only such case.

DeimosRising
Oct 17, 2005

¡Hola SEA!




HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:

In the Oakland case, the officers accused an charged were referring each other to an underage sex worker. That is a literal definition of a trafficking ring and it's a much more depressing and common scenario than whatever ethical fantasy you could dream up, much more often cops are doing poo poo like lying to cover each other's asses, doing "random stops" to get their numbers up, planting drugs and guns, abusing people in custody.

I was absolutely amazed when I actually did reading on sexual assault in the prison system and learned that less than 5 percent of the cases cited are sexual assaults by other inmates. Even if that phenomenon is massively underreported (and it likely is) the disproportionate focus away from institutional abuse is alarming.

Here in Pittsburgh (actually outside the city) the cops were doing stings where they slept with the sex workers first, and one of them tried to sue when the story broke because it hosed up his marriage when his wife found out he was getting rape blowjobs on company time

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




why wouldn;t the undercover cop wear a condom asks this observer.

Carthag Tuek
Oct 15, 2005

Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
slægt skal følge slægters gang




Groovelord Neato posted:

why wouldn;t the undercover cop wear a condom asks this observer.

Undercover + under-cover = no cover

Tart Kitty
Dec 17, 2016

Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!



I don’t really see how the situation is too different from having sex with a partner without telling them you have an STD. In both cases you’re deliberately withholding information that will have a negative impact on the other person’s health (physically more so in the case of the STD, but definitely mentally in both). And the thing is, courts judge a person on whether they knowingly caused harm in situations like that. I don’t see why this would be any different. And I don’t see how the cop would be innocent by that metric.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
ASK ME ABOUT MY SELF-PUBLISHED WARHAMMER FANFICTION AND MY KNIFE COLLECTION


I love that this thread is never more than a few days away from a completely bizarre tangent.

Tart Kitty
Dec 17, 2016

Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!



Well as long as gross people in positions of power don’t stop doing gross poo poo with said power, I don’t think this thread is going to be lacking in finding new ground to explore.

Tart Kitty fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Jun 13, 2018

Ostiosis
Nov 3, 2002



I came out the womb wanting cops in a tomb

Algund Eenboom
May 4, 2014



El Gallinero Gros posted:

Wasn't she like, 14?

you might be thinking of this case, where two undercover cops raped an 18 year old in their patrol car: https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertsamaha/this-teenager-accused-two-on-duty-cops-of-rape-she-had-no

and she found out that in most states cops can get a one-year misdemeanor charge for any sexual assault they commit on duty because they can claim that their suspect consented

quote:

This has been the most common defense used by cops acquitted in sexual assault cases. In 2007, former Irvine, California, police officer David Alex Park was acquitted of sexual assault after claiming that the woman initiated sex to avoid getting a ticket. In 2016, before Arizona’s recently passed consent law went into effect, former Phoenix police officer Timothy Morris was acquitted of sexual assault even though he admitted to having oral sex with a handcuffed woman in his patrol car, claiming she had seduced him.

(the case was also known because iirc this was the one where the new york post posted a photo of her posing "provocatively" to claim that she was lying)

Mr. Toodles
Jun 22, 2004

I support prison abolition, except for posters without avatars.

There was the case of lying equals no consent when the guy that took his cue from the "fake" casting sites: https://www.thestranger.com/slog/20...n-rape-felonies

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
ASK ME ABOUT MY SELF-PUBLISHED WARHAMMER FANFICTION AND MY KNIFE COLLECTION


Mr. Toodles posted:

There was the case of lying equals no consent when the guy that took his cue from the "fake" casting sites: https://www.thestranger.com/slog/20...n-rape-felonies

The irony is that if that guy had actually had a porn site, he probably would have been fine.

Samovar
Jun 4, 2011

I'm not a hero...





Sir Lemming posted:

Maybe it is not rape, yet still a bad thing.

It is.

Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011






Snowman_McK posted:

The irony is that if that guy had actually had a porn site, he probably would have been fine.

Using threats (he said that if they wanted work they had to have sex with him) to obtain consent is still illegal. So he wouldn't have been fine.

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

SHINee's back






Mr. Toodles posted:

There was the case of lying equals no consent when the guy that took his cue from the "fake" casting sites: https://www.thestranger.com/slog/20...n-rape-felonies


Alhazred posted:

Using threats (he said that if they wanted work they had to have sex with him) to obtain consent is still illegal. So he wouldn't have been fine.

So did he lie or threaten/coerce b/c while the latter involves the former, they're two v different things.

Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011






esperterra posted:

So did he lie or threaten/coerce

Yes.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



"If you don't have sex with me, I won't give you the part" is coercion unless you're an rear end in a top hat.

Remulak
Jun 8, 2001

The four most over-rated things in life are champagne, lobster, anal sex and picnics. Oh, and that stupid children's book 'The Little Prince,' ugh.


Yams Fan

chitoryu12 posted:

"If you don't have sex with me, I won't give you the part" is coercion unless you're an rear end in a top hat.
So if I have my lawyer draft the right thing to say then it's not coercion?

If I say "There are multiple decisions that go into the casting process" while looking down at my dick is THAT coercion?
What if I gesture at my dick?

Hat Thoughts
Jul 27, 2012


Hmm...lotta bastards in this thread

davidspackage
May 16, 2007



Nap Ghost

Remulak posted:

So if I have my lawyer draft the right thing to say then it's not coercion?

If I say "There are multiple decisions that go into the casting process" while looking down at my dick is THAT coercion?
What if I gesture at my dick?

I guess that's legally what a rapist could say, in his defence.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



Remulak posted:

So if I have my lawyer draft the right thing to say then it's not coercion?

If I say "There are multiple decisions that go into the casting process" while looking down at my dick is THAT coercion?
What if I gesture at my dick?

If you refuse to give someone a job unless they gently caress you, it's coercion you creepy weirdo.

Seriously, quit while you're ahead. You're digging the "I'm a rapist" hole, which is the worst hole you could be digging right now.

Quote-Unquote
Oct 21, 2002



chitoryu12 posted:

If you refuse to give someone a job unless they gently caress you, it's coercion you creepy weirdo.

In before he replies asking "what if the job was to be in a film in which they gently caress me? Checkmate."

Here in the UK, the powerful-smelling, bath-destroying chain store Lush came under fire recently for running an advertising campaign protesting about the police infiltrating eco/green groups and raping their members. They cancelled the campaign after a couple of days because of the backlash from the media (which is almost entirely controlled by far right non-doms), who described it as 'anti-police'.

A couple of years ago the government announced that they wouldn't publish any information about how many people in immigrant detention centres had been raped by employees of G4S, because it might harm their commercial interests. I'm sure it's also just a coincidence that literally everybody in the government owns shares, or is related to someone that owns shares, in G4S.

Basically the UK has decided that it's fine for police (and rent-a-cops) to rape anyone they like.

Carthag Tuek
Oct 15, 2005

Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
slægt skal følge slægters gang




rape the police

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



https://talkaboutthesexcult.tumblr.com/

So it turns out an artist whose music I've listened to for years has actually been using BDSM as an excuse to abuse women and take advantage of impressionable girls, and his wife just left him because he was chronically cheating on her with young fans on tour and even had the gall to ask her if he could keep up these relationships while still married.

I've just deleted everything of his off my Spotify master playlist, which was no easy task since it was buried under 1500 songs.

chitoryu12 fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Jun 13, 2018

SimonCat
Aug 12, 2016

by Nyc_Tattoo


College Slice

chitoryu12 posted:

https://talkaboutthesexcult.tumblr.com/

So it turns out an artist whose music I've listened to for years has actually been using BDSM as an excuse to abuse women and take advantage of impressionable girls, and his wife just left him because he was chronically cheating on her with young fans on tour and even had the gall to ask her if he could keep up these relationships while still married.

I've just deleted everything of his off my Spotify master playlist, which was no easy task since it was buried under 1500 songs.

Dude, you're probably going to have to quit listening to music period.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



SimonCat posted:

Dude, you're probably going to have to quit listening to music period.

The cheating was a bit more than just sex with fans. He was also grooming underage girls for when they turned of age, encouraging 18-year-olds to get drunk so he could talk them into sex (and possibly intentionally drugging them), and taking advantage of mentally ill girls specifically to coerce them into hardcore BDSM relationships where they became dependent on him and he had free reign to cause major physical damage in bed.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



This is actually something I have a bit of personal experience with due to my ex-fiancee, and the issue of gray areas of consent is something being talked about right now so it's a pretty appropriate place.

I'm sort of on the periphery of the BDSM community because even though it's not really my thing, she was extremely into it, to the extent of wanting play that would leave bruises and cuts. One of the factors behind our breakup was my extreme discomfort with it and her inability to find sexual satisfaction without being made to cry from pain and abuse. Along with not wanting to really do harmful things to the woman I was going to marry and have kids with even if she said it was okay, I was also uncomfortable with it because I knew that she had an extremely abusive childhood that likely has some contributing factor to her mental illnesses (which was another driving factor of our breakup). While I don't really practice any form of BDSM, a number of my peers do and so I tend to stay clued into the subculture.

A big topic in the discussion on William Francis right now is that he spoke to the police and avoided arrest because he kept meticulous records of consent being given to him. However, virtually all of the people he was doing this to were mentally ill. Firsthand accounts from his victims posted on that blog usually bring up suffering from depression and bipolar disorder, and the screenshots of conversations with his "whores" show them in an extremely dependent relationship where they crave affection from him even if this means being seriously hurt. Some of them also began to feel coerced into giving consent because he was so violent and refused to use safe words, making them feel like they had no way to actually end the session. According to one, he coerced them into performing sexual acts and camming for money that he could make; she claims that his screen printing business was just a cover for the money he made from the abuse.

Something that blog brings up repeatedly is that mentally ill people should not be able to consent to BDSM, and I can definitely see why after the relationship with my ex. While she denied it when I asked, the kind of abuse she wanted is so disturbingly similar to the abuse she suffered at the hands of her parents and their friends that the desire for such extremes feels like an unhealthy coping mechanism. She had also displayed desires to self-harm, such as stabbing herself with pins, which pain from BDSM would likely appease. From what I've learned after our breakup, she now lives in a 24/7 daddy/little relationship with the man she asked to have as her separate boyfriend after our marriage. The weird sex stuff is now her entire life.

There's a good argument to be made that what Will did isn't as consensual as he claims, as the girls were driven to seek the beatings as a form of self-harm and find validation in having a "master" owning them. While they technically gave consent, their state of mind was altered by their mental illness and he intentionally took advantage of their unhealthy desires and past trauma to create a harem of young girls that he could freely hurt.

I think there the question becomes "How mentally ill do you have to be before you can no longer give consent to this?" and "What can you not give consent to? Just BDSM, or sex in general?"

Phi230
Feb 2, 2016

by Fluffdaddy


I'm really impressed by the creativity of that Judge hitting that scumbag with consumer protection violations.

Also coercion stems from a dominant and suboordinate relationship at its core. Do if you do anything as a dominant party to force an outcome that's coercion

Why do people need to be educated not to trick or force people to do stuff

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours


They don't, they just think they're being clever.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



Or they really want to coerce people into sex and not feel bad.

K. Waste
Feb 27, 2014

MORAL:
To the vector belong the spoils.


Phi230 posted:

Why do [straight men] need to be educated not to trick or force people to do stuff

Because they're systematically taught the opposite.

Mechafunkzilla
Sep 11, 2006

If you want a vision of the future...


chitoryu12 posted:

This is actually something I have a bit of personal experience with due to my ex-fiancee, and the issue of gray areas of consent is something being talked about right now so it's a pretty appropriate place.

I'm sort of on the periphery of the BDSM community because even though it's not really my thing, she was extremely into it, to the extent of wanting play that would leave bruises and cuts. One of the factors behind our breakup was my extreme discomfort with it and her inability to find sexual satisfaction without being made to cry from pain and abuse. Along with not wanting to really do harmful things to the woman I was going to marry and have kids with even if she said it was okay, I was also uncomfortable with it because I knew that she had an extremely abusive childhood that likely has some contributing factor to her mental illnesses (which was another driving factor of our breakup). While I don't really practice any form of BDSM, a number of my peers do and so I tend to stay clued into the subculture.

A big topic in the discussion on William Francis right now is that he spoke to the police and avoided arrest because he kept meticulous records of consent being given to him. However, virtually all of the people he was doing this to were mentally ill. Firsthand accounts from his victims posted on that blog usually bring up suffering from depression and bipolar disorder, and the screenshots of conversations with his "whores" show them in an extremely dependent relationship where they crave affection from him even if this means being seriously hurt. Some of them also began to feel coerced into giving consent because he was so violent and refused to use safe words, making them feel like they had no way to actually end the session. According to one, he coerced them into performing sexual acts and camming for money that he could make; she claims that his screen printing business was just a cover for the money he made from the abuse.

Something that blog brings up repeatedly is that mentally ill people should not be able to consent to BDSM, and I can definitely see why after the relationship with my ex. While she denied it when I asked, the kind of abuse she wanted is so disturbingly similar to the abuse she suffered at the hands of her parents and their friends that the desire for such extremes feels like an unhealthy coping mechanism. She had also displayed desires to self-harm, such as stabbing herself with pins, which pain from BDSM would likely appease. From what I've learned after our breakup, she now lives in a 24/7 daddy/little relationship with the man she asked to have as her separate boyfriend after our marriage. The weird sex stuff is now her entire life.

There's a good argument to be made that what Will did isn't as consensual as he claims, as the girls were driven to seek the beatings as a form of self-harm and find validation in having a "master" owning them. While they technically gave consent, their state of mind was altered by their mental illness and he intentionally took advantage of their unhealthy desires and past trauma to create a harem of young girls that he could freely hurt.

I think there the question becomes "How mentally ill do you have to be before you can no longer give consent to this?" and "What can you not give consent to? Just BDSM, or sex in general?"

Taking advantage of someone because they're depressed or manic or have trauma isn't really a consent issue. It's still, like, bad and wrong, obviously -- but it's also really problematic to say that people shouldn't be allowed to have certain kinds of sex if they have X or Y mental health diagnosis. If someone is psychotic, has dementia/delirium, is intoxicated, or has something else going on where reality testing is impaired, then it becomes a consent issue.

"Coercion" gets misused a whole lot as well. Promising to give someone a job if they have sex with you is unethical, but it isn't coercion; threatening to fire them if they don't have sex with you is.

teacup
Dec 20, 2006

Who would win in a fight? Taylor Swift or Daryl Somers?

I kind of agree some language is a bit wrong but it’s splitting hairs a bit anyway and leads to things like whoopi goldbergs “rape rape” comments.

For example when I was younger and first heard of what “statuatory rape” was I thought it was ridiculous, the typical “what if it was a 17 year old who really wanted it etc” that’s not “rape”, however as a society we have decided that it is wrong and that’s the word we are using.

Same with coercion / forced / etc. like you don’t literally need to hold a woman down with a knife or threaten physical harm for it to be these things / harmful to them.

K. Waste
Feb 27, 2014

MORAL:
To the vector belong the spoils.


'Nother thought experiment: Could you imagine what the world would be like if the dominant accepted standard for coercion was the same as self-defense - i.e., it doesn't matter if you were actually in danger, all that matters is if circumstances clearly demonstrate that you were being victimized and could realistically fear that you were in danger?

Gee, I wonder why women who are compelled into abusive sexual relationships aren't treated to the same standards as gun-owning men...

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



While it's not quite mental disability, it's still an altered mental state. If the person you talked into letting you give her a black eye and whip her until she's screaming because her rear end is covered in blood only did so because she's got serious abuse-related trauma and is in a manic phase from her bipolar disorder, is she only consenting because of her mental disorder? If someone is only consenting because of a chemical imbalance in their brain making them suggestible, what makes it a different situation from someone who's only consenting because of alcohol consumption or being roofied?

Phi230
Feb 2, 2016

by Fluffdaddy


This is where the law begins to break down and show its archaic and patriarchal nature

The common law and MPC definitions of rape/sexual assault are stunningly bad

So while you articulate all these things about their mental state, which are good points, the law doesnt recognize this for the most part so now that creepy music guy probably won't see consequences

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esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

SHINee's back






Let's not act like men are the only people who are abusive toward women or use hosed up coercion on them, tia. The domestic abuse rates for lesbians are insane and thought to be even more prevalent than in hetero relationships.

Can we please just accept that all humans have the capacity to be garbage.

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