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Len
Jan 21, 2008

Pouches, bandages, shoulderpad, cyber-eye...

Bitchin'!




Safeword posted:

Is James Gunn a survivor of such abuse, or was he helping someone work through such a thing?

If he was why does he have to go to Twitter and go "hey guys victim of abuse here taking this back"?

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Safeword
Jun 1, 2018

by R. Dieovich


Len posted:

If he was why does he have to go to Twitter and go "hey guys victim of abuse here taking this back"?

In that case how do we know he isn't just making vile jokes to get a reaction? I don't understand why people feel the need to bend over backwards in order to tolerate and defend this kind of humour.

Len
Jan 21, 2008

Pouches, bandages, shoulderpad, cyber-eye...

Bitchin'!




Safeword posted:

In that case how do we know he isn't just making vile jokes to get a reaction? I don't understand why people feel the need to bend over backwards in order to tolerate and defend this kind of humour.

Why do you want the torches and pitchforks brought out over terrible humor?

And we don't know what his motives we're but you're treating him like he's a criminal who molested children and as far as we know all he did was make edgelord jokes.

Safeword
Jun 1, 2018

by R. Dieovich


Len posted:

Why do you want the torches and pitchforks brought out over terrible humor?


People in positions of power and influence should be held to much higher standards than other people, especially when they work in an already toxic culture. I am also not accusing him of molesting anyone - please don't put those words in my mouth - I just want people to realise that spouting those kinds of jokes should have repercussions.

"Just words" or "just joking" are not grounds enough to get away with hateful material, especially on a public platform.

Sodomy Hussein
Oct 9, 2005



Safeword has had this all explained multiple times now by multiple people.

Taintrunner
Apr 10, 2017

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS


Safeword posted:

People in positions of power and influence should be held to much higher standards than other people, especially when they work in an already toxic culture. I am also not accusing him of molesting anyone - please don't put those words in my mouth - I just want people to realise that spouting those kinds of jokes should have repercussions.

"Just words" or "just joking" are not grounds enough to get away with hateful material, especially on a public platform.

It’s odd you’re much more focused on this than the actual rapist Nazi weaponizing lovely old jokes to defend the online honor of an actual rapist Nazi, which is what this is about. I don’t like Gunn and I’ve hated his edgelord poo poo in the past.

He got a lot of backlash, changed, and moved forward to make stuff like GOTG1+2, which actually directly challenge toxic masculinity, so it’s safe to say he’s done plenty to make things right with his power and influence since the time of those jokes.

This is nothing but an actual Nazi rapist trying to defend the online honor of an actual Nazi rapist, and they should never be granted an inch, much less a mile of pretending their poo poo stirring has any legitimacy.

Len
Jan 21, 2008

Pouches, bandages, shoulderpad, cyber-eye...

Bitchin'!




If they were going to punish it they should have the first time the tweets were brought to their attention.

It's now years later and they decided to cut him loose which sets a pretty poo poo precedent. That would be like if my bosses decided retroactively years later that a mistake I made during my 90 day probation period was worth firing for. They knew the mistake happened, they hired me in anyway, and now it's a problem?

This is literally because people let an Actual Rapist get them all riled up and are now demanding blood. You know like you are doing in this exact thread right now.

Hemingway To Go!
Nov 10, 2008

im stupider then dog shit, i dont give a shit, and i dont give a fuck, and i will never shut the fuck up, and i'll always Respect my enemys.
- ernest hemingway


There was a chance to fire Gunn for this years ago.
He apologized years ago.

There's plenty of lgbtq people who like to write inappropriate things on ao3 if what we want is a witch Hunt lead by conservatives to imprison wrong speech.

And if we want the left to take the stand of "no apologies are ever enough for expressing bad words" then we might as well just admit that we want the left to just die and that Trump's just super great. No one wants to join a gossipy church that threatens their employment.

Safeword
Jun 1, 2018

by R. Dieovich


Gun's apology was not for those tweets.

Len posted:

If they were going to punish it they should have the first time the tweets were brought to their attention.

It's now years later and they decided to cut him loose which sets a pretty poo poo precedent. That would be like if my bosses decided retroactively years later that a mistake I made during my 90 day probation period was worth firing for. They knew the mistake happened, they hired me in anyway, and now it's a problem?

This is literally because people let an Actual Rapist get them all riled up and are now demanding blood. You know like you are doing in this exact thread right now.

I'm not demanding blood. I am asking why people in this thread are defending jokes about raping children should be acceptable on a public platform, by people in positions of influence. I've already the Gunn situation is messy and a lot of trouble would have been avoided had this occurred before he was hired in the first place.

People are ducking my question by implying I'm siding with a rapist, and it's ticking me off.

henkman
Oct 8, 2008


Maybe stop siding with a rapist then, idk

Karloff
Mar 21, 2013



Safeword posted:

Gun's apology was not for those tweets.


I'm not demanding blood. I am asking why people in this thread are defending jokes about raping children should be acceptable on a public platform, by people in positions of influence. I've already the Gunn situation is messy and a lot of trouble would have been avoided had this occurred before he was hired in the first place.

People are ducking my question by implying I'm siding with a rapist, and it's ticking me off.

I'm not sure that Gunn was in a position of influence as he is now, his brand then was making shocking edgy films and his twitter reflected that, albeit stupidly and inelegantly. When he started making family films, he stopped, albeit sneaking in the occasional subtle naughty joke into them occasionally.

Taintrunner
Apr 10, 2017

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS


henkman posted:

Maybe stop siding with a rapist then, idk

Basically a good rule to life in general, and yet here we are

MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007






Taintrunner posted:

He got a lot of backlash, changed, and moved forward to make stuff like GOTG1+2, which actually directly challenge toxic masculinity, so it’s safe to say he’s done plenty to make things right with his power and influence since the time of those jokes.

Hey can you post about this in the comic movie thread? I'm curious about your reading.

Safeword
Jun 1, 2018

by R. Dieovich


henkman posted:

Maybe stop siding with a rapist then, idk

It is possible to think of Mike as a disgusting, vile person who should be locked up while also believing public platforms should not be used to air jokes about raping children. I am not the only person in this thread who has raised the latter point, but I have several people solely focusing on and referring to me as a supporter of rape culture. That is absolutely disgusting, and does nothing but deflect from what I'm trying to ask.

Len
Jan 21, 2008

Pouches, bandages, shoulderpad, cyber-eye...

Bitchin'!




henkman posted:

Maybe stop siding with a rapist then, idk

But Not A Rapist made some incredibly awful jokes keeping with his past career writing loving Troma movies.

Taintrunner
Apr 10, 2017

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS


MacheteZombie posted:

Hey can you post about this in the comic movie thread? I'm curious about your reading.

I would just be quoting the Lindsay Ellis video on GOTG2 and as someone as not a Lindsay fan she actually took me back to why I loved that movie so much the first time I saw it, then thought about it and didn’t like it as much, and coming back around it’s much more about the emotional relationships of the characters conflicting underneath the direct beat to beat plot.

Safeword
Jun 1, 2018

by R. Dieovich


Karloff posted:

I'm not sure that Gunn was in a position of influence as he is now, his brand then was making shocking edgy films and his twitter reflected that, albeit stupidly and inelegantly. When he started making family films, he stopped, albeit sneaking in the occasional subtle naughty joke into them occasionally.

To me anyone who is influencing Hollywood, however minor, has a duty to help control the toxicity within it. Perhaps Gunn did genuinely change, and I'm happy to see evidence of that beyond an interview where he was expressed concern about his job with Disney, but in a wider sense I'm still wondering why people are so eager to defend this material.

Sodomy Hussein
Oct 9, 2005



Safeword posted:

Gun's apology was not for those tweets.


I'm not demanding blood. I am asking why people in this thread are defending jokes about raping children should be acceptable on a public platform, by people in positions of influence. I've already the Gunn situation is messy and a lot of trouble would have been avoided had this occurred before he was hired in the first place.

People are ducking my question by implying I'm siding with a rapist, and it's ticking me off.

No you're actually demanding blood, you think it's good and right for him to be fired for making bad jokes that Disney knew about years ago and that you couldn't even find on the Internet without looking at deleted tweets. In the last three pages you've had this explained to you like 20 times though, so I fully expect you to continue mischaracterizing this as the defense of "toxicity."

All your disgust and $5 could buy me a cup of coffee.

Karloff
Mar 21, 2013



Safeword posted:

It is possible to think of Mike as a disgusting, vile person who should be locked up while also believing public platforms should not be used to air jokes about raping children. I am not the only person in this thread who has raised the latter point, but I have several people solely focusing on and referring to me as a supporter of rape culture. That is absolutely disgusting, and does nothing but deflect from what I'm trying to ask.

But here's the thing, I personally don't think it's always off-limits to make a joke about horrible things, a lot of my favourite comedians and comedy show/films have done that. For example, a making a racist joke is racist, and should be condemned and punished, but making a joke about racism is not necessarily, even though it might be dark, or unpleasant or inappropriate. There's a distinction there that should be examined.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

Colonel, there's no exposed breasts in these dark souls

Why do you think making fewer jokes about taboo, offensive material on a globally available social media platform makes Hollywood less toxic?

Safeword
Jun 1, 2018

by R. Dieovich


Sodomy Hussein posted:

No you're actually demanding blood, you think it's good and right for him to be fired for making bad jokes that Disney knew about years ago and that you couldn't even find on the Internet without looking at deleted tweets. In the last three pages you've had this explained to you like 20 times though, so I fully expect you to continue mischaracterizing this as the defense of "toxicity."

All your disgust and $5 could buy me a cup of coffee.

I have said it is a messy situation and that Disney should have taken action at the time, and I've even stated firing was an excessive measure - however I've also repeatedly asked why there are so many people defending that material being online, and have been called a Nazi rapist because of this.

You'll have to forgive me for getting wound up about that.

Safeword
Jun 1, 2018

by R. Dieovich


The jokes were not "about" child molestation, they were direct statements about doing it.

Bust Rodd posted:

Why do you think making fewer jokes about taboo, offensive material on a globally available social media platform makes Hollywood less toxic?

It sends the message that this is not acceptable behaviour, and reinforces the idea its an awful attitude that shouldn't be used even "ironically". As I asked earlier, imagine if someone began joking about actresses being raped.

Small steps have to be taken with the big. Bringing down the likes of Weinstein doesn't have to mean we ignore other smaller, but also culpable contributions to the venom in this industry.

Len
Jan 21, 2008

Pouches, bandages, shoulderpad, cyber-eye...

Bitchin'!




Safeword you honestly might want to step away from this thread and calm down because you're getting irl angry about things that have been explained at length.

Making terrible jokes about pedophilia isn't great. It's a lovely topic to joke about but comedians do that. They make jokes about things that are lovely to joke about. Entire careers are formed off that exact thing.

James Gunn wrote movies for Troma which is known for it's edgelord sense of humor. We have explained this to you at length. And you come back with "but James Gunn worked in Hollywood and was responsible to get rid of the toxicity of Hollywood with his influence" but I don't know what influence a writer for Troma actually has on the culture of Hollywood at large.

And as for not demanding blood like was said above you have done exactly that. Every time you are happy he got the axe for tweets he made a decade ago, were discovered years ago, were apologized for, and ignored by Disney you are showing that you're happy that Not a Rapist got fired because an Actual Rapist riled you and a bunch of 9ther people on Twitter up.

DrVenkman
Dec 27, 2005

I think he can hear you, Ray.


They're tasteless jokes, but no one should be the arbitrators of what makes for the 'right' kind of humour either. If you or I don't find something funny then that's fine, move on. Gunn's position in Hollywood, ten years ago, shouldn't have any baring on that. He made bad jokes. In the pantheon of lovely things a person who could do it's completely inconsequential.

Safeword
Jun 1, 2018

by R. Dieovich


Except as explained earlier Mike being the source of my frustration wasn't the case until this thread, where the origin of the tweets came up and people began to call me a Nazi rapist.

You're right though, I will step away from this thread. I'm sickened that a group of people will be outraged by "bad faith" arguments, but then consistently accuse anyone who disagrees with them of being a Nazi rapist. Nobody has explained, they've consistently focused on that second part, completely ignoring anyone else who has raised the subject of rape jokes being made. It's disgusting behaviour.

Lord Bob
Jun 1, 2000


Safeword posted:

I am asking why people in this thread are defending jokes about raping children should be acceptable on a public platform, by people in positions of influence. I've already the Gunn situation is messy and a lot of trouble would have been avoided had this occurred before he was hired in the first place.

Didn't he regret them and delete them? So they weren't available on any public platform starting.. fuckin dunno. however long ago he deleted them. They had to be purposefully sought out on third party archives, right?

Safeword posted:

As I asked earlier, imagine if someone began joking about actresses being raped.

The bad jokes I read were about the general concept of raping a child, rather than specifically pointing out a child that he wanted to or thought should be raped. which is a distinction. the first being gross shock humour exclusively selected for being such a shocking thing - the "joke" being it is so preposterous that anyone would ever think about doing this in "real life" that it could only possibly be said for shock value.

As opposed to the roseanne stuff where she explicitly targeted an actual person, or the theoretical jokes about specifically raping an actress.

Sodomy Hussein
Oct 9, 2005



Safeword posted:

The jokes were not "about" child molestation, they were direct statements about doing it.


It sends the message that this is not acceptable behaviour, and reinforces the idea its an awful attitude that shouldn't be used even "ironically". As I asked earlier, imagine if someone began joking about actresses being raped.

Small steps have to be taken with the big. Bringing down the likes of Weinstein doesn't have to mean we ignore other smaller, but also culpable contributions to the venom in this industry.

Basically you're just dancing around your stance that people can't joke about offensive poo poo in public (offensive here being whatever you deem offensive). Were it up to your delicate sensibilities, Anthony Jeselnik and numerous other comics would never work again. You're literally the unprepared, under-informed jerk in the audience that comics make fun of all the time.

BrandonGK
May 6, 2005

Throw it out the airlock.

Imagine being so invested in your self appointed position as internet hall monitor making sure no says anything naughty or mean that you’ll happily aid and abet a campaign by a literal rapist to silence critics of a president who has also almost certainly abused many women and girls.

Martman
Nov 20, 2006

SEXY... defines my posts and my ride


When did James Gunn previously get a lot of backlash for the tweets? And when did he apologize for them?

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

SHINee's back






I think people need to be more specific about what he apologized for back in 2011? or whenever it was. It wasn't the tweets specifically, but he did own up to bad behaviour/jokes online and made an effort to change. He did however address the tweets in an interview last year and admitted he used to be a lovely person on Twitter, so it's not like he pretended they never existed. It's lol just a really annoying sticking point for me b/c whenever people mention he has apologized for being a twat online in the past, someone has to come in and go 'yeah but he didn't apologize for THOSE tweets specifically!' like it invalidates any apologies he has made or efforts he's made to change.

Also, like, Safeword seems to not 100% agree with the firing in general and from what I can tell has mostly been defending their right to be offended by the jokes they were recently made aware of? Especially the jokes about their own community. There's nothing wrong with not liking the poo poo Gunn said and thinking it's not cool to say that poo poo online, or that people should face consequences for actions like that-- tho preferably in a more timely fashion than ten years later, imo.

Like can't we agree to disagree? Running in circles calling Safeword a rape apologist or saying that they're defending Cerno is just getting dumb at this point. They didn't even know he was the one who resurfaced the tweets until people started jumping on them in this thread.

Babysitter Super Sleuth
Apr 26, 2012

my posts are as bad the Current Releases review of Gone Girl



Safeword posted:

Except as explained earlier Mike being the source of my frustration wasn't the case until this thread, where the origin of the tweets came up and people began to call me a Nazi rapist.

Welcome to the culture war, motherfucker, either you can accept that Gunn has changed as a person or you can throw in with a nazi rapist, because this was never actually about the content of his tweets and trying to approach it from that angle is playing into the hands of people who actually, literally want genocide in america and use these tactics to eliminate cultural opposition.

Lessail
Apr 1, 2011

:cry::cry:
tell me how vgk aren't playing like shit again
:cry::cry:
p.s. help my grapes are so sour!


It always comes back to the boundaries of comedy

Lessail
Apr 1, 2011

:cry::cry:
tell me how vgk aren't playing like shit again
:cry::cry:
p.s. help my grapes are so sour!


That's what is most important, after all

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013



Martman posted:

When did James Gunn previously get a lot of backlash for the tweets? And when did he apologize for them?

Jimbot posted:

He didn't apologize for those tweets until they were brought up. The thing he apologized for years ago was for a blog where he made other crass, garbage jokes.

Sup dude

https://www.buzzfeed.com/adambvary/james-gunn-guardians-of-the-galaxy?utm_term=.ntndNWxmY#.sogxykLdQ

quote:


“I protect myself by writing scenes where people shoot people in the face,” Gunn said, chuckling. “And if I have to think around shooting someone in the face, it’s harder, but I think it’s more rewarding for me.” He cleared his throat. “I felt like Guardians forced me into a much deeper way of thinking about, you know, my relationship to people, I suppose. I was a very nasty guy on Twitter. It was a lot loving edgy, in-your-face, dirty stuff. I suddenly was working for Marvel and Disney, and that didn’t seem like something I could do anymore. I thought that that would be a hindrance on my life. But the truth was it was a big, huge opening for me. I realized, a lot of that stuff is a way that I push away people. When I was forced into being this” — he moved his hand over his chest — “I felt more fully myself.”

And what’s “this”?

“Sensitive, I guess?” he said. “Positive. I mean, I really do love people. And by not having jokes to make about whatever was that offensive topic of the week, that forced me into just being who I really was, which was a pretty positive person. It felt like a relief.”

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

SHINee's back






The issue is people keep conflating his apology for the bad satire blog with apologizing for these tweets, so there's confusion about whether he apologized for them six years ago or not.

It's kind of a moot point anyway because Gunn has been super open about all of this poo poo in interviews for the past few years if you want to go looking for them. But as far as a public apology on twitter (for the tweets, not the blog) he technically didn't make one back then.

Karloff
Mar 21, 2013




Yes, but he didn't name-check each individual tweet and provide an exhaustive run-down of every lovely joke he made ever in his life, so it's not good enough!

treasured8elief
Jul 25, 2011



Salad Prong

Being okay with Disney firing him for those doesn't mean we're one with Nazi rapists. Like, can y'all please tone it down with that?

He mentioned in Buzzfeed's interview last year that he used to be toxic on twitter but stopped when he joined Disney. That's fine and good, but with the content and amount of his statements over so long of a time I'm absolutely okay with Disney making their choice when the actual tweets were brought to their attention.

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

SHINee's back






I get being pissed about what happened with Gunn, Lord Xtina knows I am too, but taking it out on people in this and other threads (unless they straight up intentionally defend Cernovich) is really loving dumb.

Martman
Nov 20, 2006

SEXY... defines my posts and my ride


So like, he didn't actually experience backlash did he? I'm not denying the value of that statement you've quoted, but people have been saying there was already backlash and that's what I'm asking about.

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Darko
Dec 23, 2004



treasured8elief posted:

Being okay with Disney firing him for those doesn't mean we're one with Nazi rapists. Like, can y'all please tone it down with that.

There is an actual culture war going on with Nazis against everyone else, and everyone else is losing.

One of the recent forms of attack are Nazis going through everyone who is critical about them's past, finding something wrong, and using the kneejerk reaction of people to silence them, leaving them unopposed (and making other people scared to openly talk about them for that reason).

NOBODY is squeaky clean and EVERYONE has something negative in their past. People just tend to make excuses for their own demons, while damning everyone else.

Either we accept people can change and accept proof of change (like being a decade removed with lack of other offenses), while condemning CURRENT actions, or we lose that war because there will be no one left to speak against those we are fighting against.

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