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K. Waste
Feb 27, 2014

MORAL:
To the vector belong the spoils.


Fart City posted:

All Christmas music is bad

pfft https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49tF2b7NTf4

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Asbury
Mar 23, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 3321 days!


Hair Elf

nevermind, don't angry post

Asbury fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Dec 18, 2018

Phi230
Feb 2, 2016

by Fluffdaddy


NecroMonster posted:

to use a really good british word.

he's gormless.

He is without gorm

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

SHINee's back






DrVenkman posted:

I get people not being into it though and it's fine. At the end of the day if you have to research societal norms of America in the 1940s to get the context of a song then it's probably a bit too much work. To that end I'm surprised there are not many gender-swapped versions of it (Though funnily enough one of the earliest versions of the song was).

Yeah, the reprise in Neptune's Daughter (the song won an Oscar for this iirc!) was gender swapped I believe. And I agree with it obviously being cool for people to not like it-- I was just voicing my own opinion about the song and why the idea of taking it off the air in some areas bothers me.

Both of Zooey Deschanel's versions are v good i m h o and I am also partial to the hella gay Glee version Chris Colfer and Darren Criss did.

Len posted:

I liked Gaga and JGLs version from that Muppet Christmas Special she did

Also v good.

The only good Christmas songs imho are Baby, It's Cold Outside, Last Christmas and All I Want For Christmas is You.

Len
Jan 21, 2008

Pouches, bandages, shoulderpad, cyber-eye...

Bitchin'!




esperterra posted:

Yeah, the reprise in Neptune's Daughter (the song won an Oscar for this iirc!) was gender swapped I believe. And I agree with it obviously being cool for people to not like it-- I was just voicing my own opinion about the song and why the idea of taking it off the air in some areas bothers me.

Both of Zooey Deschanel's versions are v good i m h o and I am also partial to the hella gay Glee version Chris Colfer and Darren Criss did.


Also v good.

The only good Christmas songs imho are Baby, It's Cold Outside, Last Christmas and All I Want For Christmas is You.

You left out Fairy tale of New York.

And everything done by the crew of Venture Bros

Father Christmas

enki42
Jun 11, 2001
#ATMLIVESMATTER

Put this Nazi-lover on ignore immediately!


Len posted:

You left out Fairy tale of New York.

speaking of Christmas songs with some lyrics that have aged badly...

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.




enki42 posted:

speaking of Christmas songs with some lyrics that have aged badly...

That's just one line, Jimmy Fallon just did a duet of it with Saoirse Ronan and just dropped the line, didn't hurt the song much.

K. Waste
Feb 27, 2014

MORAL:
To the vector belong the spoils.


enki42 posted:

speaking of Christmas songs with some lyrics that have aged badly...

Skwirl posted:

That's just one line, Jimmy Fallon just did a duet of it with Saoirse Ronan and just dropped the line, didn't hurt the song much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJ0PyaPOnvs

LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002


That F-bomb in the song is super horrible, yeah, but I still fuckin' love Fairytale of New York.

Vintersorg
Mar 3, 2004

PRESIDENT OF THE OFFICIAL BRENDAN FRASER FAN CLUB





Wasn't it sung from the point of view of the person in the song?

This is like slagging Dire Straits for the same thing.

Max Awfuls
Sep 10, 2011


Vintersorg posted:

Wasn't it sung from the point of view of the person in the song?

This is like slagging Dire Straits for the same thing.

It's an old timey drunkard couple having a Christmas fight about how they ruined each other's life, you might take issue with using the word in 2018 but the song is not homophobic unless you also count every horror and action movie as pro-violence just for depicting it.

SimonChris
Apr 24, 2008

The Baron's daughter is missing, and you are the man to find her. No problem. With your inexhaustible arsenal of hard-boiled similes, there is nothing you can't handle.

Grimey Drawer

Ghost Leviathan posted:

There's an annual thread in GBS where they try to make deliberately bad Christmas music. It might make it sound better in comparison.

https://saxmas.bandcamp.com/track/baby-its-cold-outside

https://saxmas.bandcamp.com/track/baby-its-cold

You can't just write that without providing some examples.

Edit: They made one this year too! https://soundcloud.com/user-592589921/baby-its-cold-outside

SimonChris fucked around with this message at 11:44 on Dec 19, 2018

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.





"Only the gays have wet dreams, Catholic men don't have things like that."

Davros1
Jul 19, 2007

You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible





Dusku responds to the Weatherly situation. Jesus Christ, what a dick he is.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion...asyO/story.html

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Too bad Weatherly wasn't outed as a creep earlier than this, he's already been raking that big network money in for like a decade so he's pretty set.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010


I still can't get over the incredible stupidity of this whole sequence. Putting aside how reprehensible it is, it just makes no business sense.

Weatherly is the hollowed out shell of a once handsome man, who played third fiddle on a mysteriously popular show. Sure, he's got some star power, but you have to assume that so does Dushku (otherwise why would they bring her in?) Yet, even before this came out as a story of them enabling a creep, they'd still rather pay off Dushku for several seasons worth, do without her star power but still paying for it, than reign in 'some guy who used to be on CSI The other one that's an acronym'

I mean, even putting aside the morality of it (which we shouldn't do) it just seems like loving terrible business. And that's even before this story breaks.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Snowman_McK posted:

I still can't get over the incredible stupidity of this whole sequence. Putting aside how reprehensible it is, it just makes no business sense.

Weatherly is the hollowed out shell of a once handsome man, who played third fiddle on a mysteriously popular show. Sure, he's got some star power, but you have to assume that so does Dushku (otherwise why would they bring her in?) Yet, even before this came out as a story of them enabling a creep, they'd still rather pay off Dushku for several seasons worth, do without her star power but still paying for it, than reign in 'some guy who used to be on CSI The other one that's an acronym'

I mean, even putting aside the morality of it (which we shouldn't do) it just seems like loving terrible business. And that's even before this story breaks.

The boomers who watch those shows hate change, so once a guy is the star of a successful show that brings in ratings the networks really really don't want to have to make any changes.

Sodomy Hussein
Oct 9, 2005



Snowman_McK posted:

I still can't get over the incredible stupidity of this whole sequence. Putting aside how reprehensible it is, it just makes no business sense.

Weatherly is the hollowed out shell of a once handsome man, who played third fiddle on a mysteriously popular show. Sure, he's got some star power, but you have to assume that so does Dushku (otherwise why would they bring her in?) Yet, even before this came out as a story of them enabling a creep, they'd still rather pay off Dushku for several seasons worth, do without her star power but still paying for it, than reign in 'some guy who used to be on CSI The other one that's an acronym'

I mean, even putting aside the morality of it (which we shouldn't do) it just seems like loving terrible business. And that's even before this story breaks.

Imagine paying $10 million to protect your third-rate, completely replaceable "star" on your dying medium of network TV. The rot at CBS runs real deep.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010


Basebf555 posted:

The boomers who watch those shows hate change, so once a guy is the star of a successful show that brings in ratings the networks really really don't want to have to make any changes.

That's the thing, though. It's not changing the show at all. You just tell him 'hey, cool it' make him do a sensitivity course or some poo poo, and curb his worst excesses (or cover them up better) and the show goes on without anyone knowing. Instead, they lose their co-star, have to pay for her anyway, and a terrible news story breaks out.

I'm just trying to think like a morally bankrupt TV executive, and I think I might be better at it than them.

Sucrose
Dec 9, 2009


Snowman_McK posted:

I still can't get over the incredible stupidity of this whole sequence. Putting aside how reprehensible it is, it just makes no business sense.

Weatherly is the hollowed out shell of a once handsome man, who played third fiddle on a mysteriously popular show. Sure, he's got some star power, but you have to assume that so does Dushku (otherwise why would they bring her in?) Yet, even before this came out as a story of them enabling a creep, they'd still rather pay off Dushku for several seasons worth, do without her star power but still paying for it, than reign in 'some guy who used to be on CSI The other one that's an acronym'

I mean, even putting aside the morality of it (which we shouldn't do) it just seems like loving terrible business. And that's even before this story breaks.

Agreed. Honestly, I think the reading of the situation that makes the most sense is “We need to get rid of this actress, because she makes harassment claims and might be a liability.” I’m not even sure it was necessarily about protecting Weatherly as much as it was about getting rid of her.

Which if true points to an absolutely terrible, deep-rooted, and systematic culture of silencing sexual harassment victims at CBS.

Sucrose fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Dec 20, 2018

Sucrose
Dec 9, 2009


Ok, in regards to “Baby It’s Cold Outside,” I hate this “it’s a bad look” type poo poo. If the song wasn’t rapey at the time it was written, then it’s not rapey period and it doesn’t need to be banned from the airwaves. If we start going down this route we end up with things like the twitter user who wanted a picture of a cut-up pomegranate removed because the thumbnail “looked like a picture of gore.” At some point you have to draw a line in the sand and say “there’s nothing wrong with this thing, and if you have a problem with it, the problem is you.”

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.




Even if I was an amoral corporate executive who regularly sexually harassed my own staff I'd be pissed at the showrunner for firing her without checking with corporate first.

King Vidiot
Feb 17, 2007

The video arcade made me what I am today!



Wasn't it Family Guy who did the Bill Cosby version of "Baby It's Cold Outside"? It seems like this whole thing against that song started around the time that gag came out and spread around the internet.

But thinking that song is "promoting rape culture" is like trying to ban an old 1930's song with the word "gay" in it because you think it's homophobic, or banning that one old Batman comic because the word "boner" is phallocentric.

K. Waste
Feb 27, 2014

MORAL:
To the vector belong the spoils.


Sucrose posted:

If the song wasn’t rapey at the time it was written, then it’s not rapey period

What an incredibly strange way of viewing historical and cultural context.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010


Sucrose posted:

Ok, in regards to “Baby It’s Cold Outside,” I hate this “it’s a bad look” type poo poo. If the song wasn’t rapey at the time it was written, then it’s not rapey period and it doesn’t need to be banned from the airwaves. If we start going down this route we end up with things like the twitter user who wanted a picture of a cut-up pomegranate removed because the thumbnail “looked like a picture of gore.” At some point you have to draw a line in the sand and say “there’s nothing wrong with this thing, and if you have a problem with it, the problem is you.”

I'm pretty sure 'she says no but means yes' wasn't suddenly invented after the song became popular.

Also, if it's rapey now, maybe don't play it now, regardless of its context when it was written 70 years ago.

Also, loving lol at the slippery slope argument 'where does it end?'

Somewhere. The answer is always somewhere.

Skwirl posted:

Even if I was an amoral corporate executive who regularly sexually harassed my own staff I'd be pissed at the showrunner for firing her without checking with corporate first.

Especially if it's someone like Dushku, who has a following and has been recently in the news for being on the wrong end of harrassment as a child.

Sucrose
Dec 9, 2009


King Vidiot posted:

Wasn't it Family Guy who did the Bill Cosby version of "Baby It's Cold Outside"? It seems like this whole thing against that song started around the time that gag came out and spread around the internet.

But thinking that song is "promoting rape culture" is like trying to ban an old 1930's song with the word "gay" in it because you think it's homophobic, or banning that one old Batman comic because the word "boner" is phallocentric.

Right. We shouldn’t ban or remove old things just because if their exact wording was written today, it would be offensive due to shifts in word meaning or cultural connotations. If anything I think it’s infantilizing to think that an offended person is incapable of realizing that an old thing is old and doing more research on what it meant at the time it was written.

......Do keep in mind that this is entirely different from removing old things that were written at a time where they were already highly offensive, but when nobody gave a poo poo about the opinions of the marginalized group being offended.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010


King Vidiot posted:

But thinking that song is "promoting rape culture" is like trying to ban an old 1930's song with the word "gay" in it because you think it's homophobic, or banning that one old Batman comic because the word "boner" is phallocentric.

It really isn't like that.

garycoleisgod
Sep 27, 2004
Boo


The worst thing for me about Dushku explaining her side is not the poo poo Weatherly pulled, but this quote about the writer-producer Caron dude:

quote:

Caron defended Weatherly, explaining he had simply exhibited “frat” behavior and added, “What does [Eliza] expect, she was in Maxim.”
emphasis mine

Like because a woman posed for a lads mag, she doesn't have any rights or the expectation of being treated as an person, not an object? It's a version of the mindset that says a woman was asking to be raped because of the way she dressed.

Disgusting.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010


garycoleisgod posted:

The worst thing for me about Dushku explaining her side is not the poo poo Weatherly pulled, but this quote about the writer-producer Caron dude:
emphasis mine

Like because a woman posed for a lads mag, she doesn't have any rights or the expectation of being treated as an person, not an object? It's a version of the mindset that says a woman was asking to be raped because of the way she dressed.

Disgusting.

The weird thing is, aren't frats basically clubs for dudes who like to commit sexual assault around dudes who'll vouch for them? It's not like frat behaviour is much of an excuse.

DC Murderverse
Nov 10, 2016

"Tell that to Zod's snapped neck!"



Max Awfuls posted:

It's an old timey drunkard couple having a Christmas fight about how they ruined each other's life, you might take issue with using the word in 2018 but the song is not homophobic unless you also count every horror and action movie as pro-violence just for depicting it.

yeah pretty much. song ain't homophobic but if you're doing a public performance (or, god forbid, playing it on the drat public radio which is how this particular controversy keeps coming up) maybe censorship isn't the end of the world.

but like also, this is a really lovely way to defend said lyrics:

quote:

"The word was used by the character because it fitted with the way she would speak and with her character. She is not supposed to be a nice person, or even a wholesome person. She is a woman of a certain generation at a certain time in history and she is down on her luck and desperate. Her dialogue is as accurate as I could make it, but she is not intended to offend! She is just supposed to be an authentic character and not all characters in songs and stories are angels or even decent and respectable, sometimes characters in songs and stories have to be evil or nasty in order to tell the story effectively. If people don't understand that I was trying to accurately portray the character as authentically as possible, then I am absolutely fine with them bleeping the word, but I don't want to get into an argument."

it's being deliberately obtuse about why people would want the word censored. I think most people understand the context of the word in the song but also some people just don't want to hear that word on the radio, context be damned. Someone saying "i would really like it if the BBC did not air a version of this song containing that particular slur because when I am listening to the radio and would prefer not to hear it coming from my speakers" is not really helped by saying "well if you understood the context of the song..."

Origami Dali
Jan 7, 2005

Get ready to fuck!
You fucker's fucker!
You fucker!


Why would anybody care about or be offended by a word regardless of the context? It's context that gives it meaning in the first place.

DC Murderverse
Nov 10, 2016

"Tell that to Zod's snapped neck!"



Origami Dali posted:

Why would anybody care about or be offended by a word regardless of the context? It's context that gives it meaning in the first place.

because the context in the song has to also deal with the context of that world in the larger English-speaking world. it's completely authentic to imagine that the character in the context of the song would use that word, but also it's a song that gets played on the radio, performed on television, etc. so people who just don't want to hear that word (because of what that particular word means to them, in the context of their own lives and the lives of lots of LGBT people who have had negative experiences connected to it) are having to deal with it sort of existing in the public sphere like that.

So you have to decide, is this particular word *really* the perfect, only thing that I can use in this situation to express the emotion/meaning that I want it to? And sometimes the answer to that question is yes. Sometimes someone creating a piece of art genuinely needs to use uncomfortable words in the making of that art because those specific words carry a weight that others would lack. but sometimes, someone creates a christmas song that tells a story about two people who aren't really very good people who hate each other very much, and probably could have used a different word to get the same meaning across. And in both cases, there's probably an expectation that their work will be censored in certain situations if the viewing audience is large enough or people who don't take in all of the context of the work might stumble upon it randomly and just hear it.

Hat Thoughts
Jul 27, 2012


inches away from christmas music canonization but keep forgetting to take the slurs out my songs

enki42
Jun 11, 2001
#ATMLIVESMATTER

Put this Nazi-lover on ignore immediately!


Mostly I'm pissed off about that line because I love Fairytale of New York and want to play it for my kids to show how great a Christmas song it is (the few times he's heard it my 5 year old really likes it) but obviously he's a bit too young to explain why that word can be used in that specific context but absolutely not anywhere else.

Darko
Dec 23, 2004



White straight males who have no real cultural things used to say they are lesser than other people may not realize it, but people who aren't that might just not like daily reminders of that, via the words that were/are used to tell them they are poo poo.

enki42
Jun 11, 2001
#ATMLIVESMATTER

Put this Nazi-lover on ignore immediately!


For sure. It's a shame that there aren't good alternate versions that work. Someone mentioned the Jimmy Fallon / Saiorise Ronan one where they just omitted that whole verse, which is the same thing the Bill Murray Christmas special version did, but the song loses a LOT if you don't have the juxtaposition of them being young and carefree in the first verse and worn down and embittered in the second.

K. Waste
Feb 27, 2014

MORAL:
To the vector belong the spoils.


They could have easily changed just that one line to "You're worse than Bob Saget" and gotten a huge laugh

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.




enki42 posted:

For sure. It's a shame that there aren't good alternate versions that work. Someone mentioned the Jimmy Fallon / Saiorise Ronan one where they just omitted that whole verse, which is the same thing the Bill Murray Christmas special version did, but the song loses a LOT if you don't have the juxtaposition of them being young and carefree in the first verse and worn down and embittered in the second.

It still has her laying into him for crushing her dreams.

Here's a link. I didn't know Jimmy Fallon could sing.
https://youtu.be/eeOVR09ohSU

King Vidiot
Feb 17, 2007

The video arcade made me what I am today!



And yet nobody mentions the "old slut on junk" line.

I mean, I totally understand changing or omitting that part but I remember the first time I heard that song and what a shock to the system that part was. And that was the intended effect, it was like tossing a grenade into the middle of a romantic dinner scene. You get hit with "slut" and "human being" right after a couple reminisces about their first Christmas and it's really sweet and saccharine, and then it ends with the bitter couple still together despite the fighting and regrets. Like I kind of feel it needs that punch where you're shocked with these awful slurs before the downbeat final verse.

But whatever, don't play it on the radio or change it or whatever, the original's still around. It's better to not have a hurtful slur popping up to remind marginalized people of the pain of being marginalized.

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-Blackadder-
Jan 2, 2007

Game....Blouses.


Sucrose posted:

At some point you have to draw a line in the sand and say “there’s nothing wrong with this thing, and if you have a problem with it, the problem is you.”

Lol, everybody thinks this, the problem is everyone has their own idea of where that line is, and the line moves in accordance with cultural trends anyway.

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