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Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink


enki42 posted:

I mean, it doesn't take a very deep study of Joss Whedon's work to think that he fetishizes the "bad-rear end sexy girl" stereotype in pretty much everything he's ever done. Maybe that's not objectification, but women in Joss Whedon directed media are heavily fetishized.

Absolutely, but it's also worth noting that a character can be a "bad-rear end sexy girl" and still be presented as a passive object.

In the bvs shot, while her whole body is on screen, the focus is on her face. Moreover, she's both being seen by and looking at the space monster.
In the jl shot, the focus is on her waist, Flash is looking at her shoulder, and she's looking away from the camera.

I'm mentioning this mostly to back up Hundu's point that these two shots are not the same.

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WeedlordGoku69
Feb 11, 2015

by Cyrano4747


KitConstantine posted:

You're joking, but their physique is absolutely defined by male gaze. The over-the-top muscular cut body is a male power fantasy not a woman's sexual fantasy. It appears homoerotic because men are the target audience for the power fantasy the spartans embody (literally).

...eh? :crossarms:

you realize women are, generally speaking, hella into ripped dudes too, right

e: like you realize Jason Momoa is pretty much considered the hottest dude in hollywood right now, right? looking like that Rob Liefeld drawing of Captain America, but with a beard and long hair, is more or less The In Look for dudes right now

Lovely Joe Stalin
Jun 12, 2007

Our Lovely Wang


WeedlordGoku69 posted:

looking like that Rob Liefeld drawing of Captain America, but with a beard and long hair, is more or less The In Look for dudes right now

Something something flipper feet, something something Aquaman.

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007



WeedlordGoku69 posted:

...eh? :crossarms:

you realize women are, generally speaking, hella into ripped dudes too, right

e: like you realize Jason Momoa is pretty much considered the hottest dude in hollywood right now, right? looking like that Rob Liefeld drawing of Captain America, but with a beard and long hair, is more or less The In Look for dudes right now

i don't think its thats simple. there's also a pretty compelling argument that its Timothée Chalamet if we're talking about who women consider hot.

DeimosRising posted:

The concept of gaze and male gaze is a lot more complicated than “horny images”

yeah, actually going back to Mulvey's writing on this makes a lot of the conversation around the male gaze frustrating with how superficially its applied as criticism.

Martman
Nov 20, 2006

SEXY... defines my posts and my ride


Paragon8 posted:

i don't think its thats simple. there's also a pretty compelling argument that its Timothée Chalamet if we're talking about who women consider hot.
I think there is a compelling argument that women are humans with a large range of desires

Nemins
Oct 27, 2005


It’s the classic twink vs bear argument

sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011

Endorsed by:
Pentecoastal Elites!
fart_man_69!
Terminal autist!
Ruzihm!
Judakel!
Dixon Chisholm!
Nix Panicus!
Neurolimal!

WeedlordGoku69 posted:

...eh? :crossarms:

you realize women are, generally speaking, hella into ripped dudes too, right

e: like you realize Jason Momoa is pretty much considered the hottest dude in hollywood right now, right? looking like that Rob Liefeld drawing of Captain America, but with a beard and long hair, is more or less The In Look for dudes right now

like said it's not just about 'does this picture get me hard', 300 is not a film shot for titillation of women, it's a power fantasy for men, and the bodies involved are part of that. I mean if your point is just 'male gaze is likely the wrong specific word for this' then yea I probably agree but the bodies in 300 are part of the same kind of psychosexual stuff that 'make the super hero lady's outfit sexy so the cute boyman can be flustered by how hot she is' does.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

how few people do you
need before you can
change the world?


Paragon8 posted:

i don't think its thats simple. there's also a pretty compelling argument that its Timothée Chalamet if we're talking about who women consider hot.


Pete Davison was with Ariana Grande and Kate Beckinsale so uh, I can't explain what women generally fond attractive in a man.

KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


sexpig by night posted:

like said it's not just about 'does this picture get me hard', 300 is not a film shot for titillation of women, it's a power fantasy for men, and the bodies involved are part of that. I mean if your point is just 'male gaze is likely the wrong specific word for this' then yea I probably agree but the bodies in 300 are part of the same kind of psychosexual stuff that 'make the super hero lady's outfit sexy so the cute boyman can be flustered by how hot she is' does.

Exactly this. Women find fit men attractive, but it's not that simple. The entire framing of 300 is about how powerful the men are, their prowess at fighting and their domination of the opponent. It's not framed as jerk off material for women but as something aspirational/an unattainable ideal for men.

I would argue that 'male gaze' is the correct term because the whole movie is about the masculine ideal of the Spartans vs the degenerate variations of Persians. And I'd point you to the scene with the sybils near the end of the first third as the pinaccle of the male gaze as applied to women.

Edit: and if we want to stay vaguely topical the only woman framed as remotely powerful in the entire movie is a) the protagonist's wife and b)is raped by the traitorous spartan antagonist. She gets her revenge but her violation isnt about her as a person, she's a vessel to hurt the protagonist in absentia.

KitConstantine fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Jul 10, 2020

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink


KitConstantine posted:

I would argue that 'male gaze' is the correct term because the whole movie is about the masculine ideal of the Spartans vs the degenerate variations of Persians.

Just to be clear, what you've written here is that the Spartans are shot as passive sex objects for the Persians and the audience to desire.

I do not think that's what you meant.

Grendels Dad
Mar 5, 2011

Popular culture has passed you by.


Schwarzwald posted:

Just to be clear, what you've written here is that the Spartans are shot as passive sex objects for the Persians and the audience to desire.

I do not think that's what you meant.

I mean, have you seen the shoulder massage Xerxes gives Legolas?

E: Or the hunchback drooling over how cool the Spartans are? Everybody is hella horny for Spartans in the movie, probably because it's told by a Spartan.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




WeedlordGoku69 posted:

...eh? :crossarms:

you realize women are, generally speaking, hella into ripped dudes too, right

e: like you realize Jason Momoa is pretty much considered the hottest dude in hollywood right now, right? looking like that Rob Liefeld drawing of Captain America, but with a beard and long hair, is more or less The In Look for dudes right now

Said before that a big thing about superhero movies is studios realised that they have not only a reason but a mandate to cast incredibly hunky dudes and put them in tight outfits

Sodomy Hussein
Oct 9, 2005



Rhyno posted:

Pete Davison was with Ariana Grande and Kate Beckinsale so uh, I can't explain what women generally fond attractive in a man.

It's almost like different people are attracted to different things

For example, Star Trek being founded on the premise that Shatner would be the star, followed by Spock becoming the sex symbol and the real star.

To say nothing of trying to unpack Ariana Grande as a person.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

how few people do you
need before you can
change the world?


Psh, DeForest Kelly was handsomer than either of them.

KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


Schwarzwald posted:

Just to be clear, what you've written here is that the Spartans are shot as passive sex objects for the Persians and the audience to desire.

I do not think that's what you meant.

No it isn't what I wrote, you don't understand what the "male gaze" as a term encompasses.

The Spartans are hetero men framed through the male gaze as in the (male) audience are supposed to narcissisticly see themselves in these hypermasculine supermen, in contrast to the frequently feminized and/or physically degraded masculinity of the Persians. The definition of male gaze is "the perspective of a notionally typical heterosexual man considered as embodied in the audience or intended audience for films and other visual media , characterized by a tendency to objectify or sexualize women".The "male gaze" does not have only one characteristic.

The male gaze also frames how the world and other men are depicted. The Persians as shown on screen are almost exclusively men, So no the male gaze doesn't automatically mean they are being sexualized/the aggressor sexualizing the Spartans, though do you recall how Xerxes is depicted? Physically bigger and stronger than the Spartans, talks to/tries to the intimidate the protagonist in what is framed as a sexually aggressive way? The whole "kneel" scene is pretty pivotal. It could be argued Xerxes sexualized and dehumanized Leonidas in a way typically reserved for female characters. The director admitted he was using the threat of predatory homosexuality to make Xerxes more frightening to the hetero male audience - quote from a contemporary entertainment weekly article:

"The director says that the film’s (homo)sexual undertones were intended to make young straight males in the audience uncomfortable, because “What’s more scary to a 20-year-old boy than a giant god-king who wants to have his way with you?”

Even the basic wikipedia summary for the theory says it doesn't exclusively relate to how women are depicted.

Edit: the whole "well women think hot dudes are hot so it can't be the male gaze" thing? Put simply, the intended audience for male superhero toys, abs and all, isn't girls and women. Women's interest in superhero films/moreso tv until super recently seen as either neutral or negative - it meant the piece of media wasn't tightly focused enough on the "proper" demo of men 18-35.

Also lol if you think hollywood wouldn't be casting hot dudes either way. They're loving movies, usually leads in movies, even action movies, are hot. Was Stallone cast in Rambo because they wanted women to come gaze at his pouty lips and 80s hair?

KitConstantine fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Jul 10, 2020

Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011






Rhyno posted:

Pete Davison was with Ariana Grande and Kate Beckinsale so uh, I can't explain what women generally fond attractive in a man.

Well, according to Grande he has a big dick.

Inspector Gesicht
Oct 26, 2012

500 Zeus a body.




The Crohns Disease must really make him a catch, whenever he's not ducking to the nearest restroom.

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




Alhazred posted:

Well, according to Grande he has a big dick.

https://twitter.com/katefeetie/status/1051948710022836230?s=20

Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 12:05 on Jul 10, 2020

Origami Dali
Jan 7, 2005

Get ready to fuck!
You fucker's fucker!
You fucker!


Lol post that tweet in the online dating thread and watch the fireworks

AceOfFlames
Oct 9, 2012


Alhazred posted:

Well, according to Grande he has a big dick.



Grande by name, Grande by preference.

Coffee And Pie
Nov 4, 2010

"Blah-sum"?
More like "Blawesome"


Danny DeVito and Rhea Perlman have been together for 40 years, there’s a pot for every lid.

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

Coffee And Pie posted:

Danny DeVito and Rhea Perlman have been together for 40 years, there’s a pot for every lid.

They're not together anymore (though not officially divorced).

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

how few people do you
need before you can
change the world?


thrawn527 posted:

They're not together anymore (though not officially divorced).

Why would you ruin everyone's lives with this information.

Nissin Cup Nudist
Sep 3, 2011

Sleep with one eye open

We're off to Gritty Gritty land






ImpAtom posted:

I was about to say I am fairly sure Gal Gadot could literally break Joss Whedon in half.

Gal Gadot can break me in half any time



I'm 6 feet even. That's like the same thing if you round up, right?

inferis
Dec 30, 2003



Nissin Cup Nudist posted:



I'm 6 feet even. That's like the same thing if you round up, right?
i avoid anyone who claims to be six feet because they’re probably 5’10” and rounding up. Anyone who is six feet is gonna say 6’2”

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink


KitConstantine posted:

No it isn't what I wrote, you don't understand what the "male gaze" as a term encompasses.

Ah, I see now. I think I was getting thrown by how the Spartans are meant to be identified with, and how in the Mulvey's original framing there's a delineation between the character who is seen and the character who does the seeing, with the audience identifying with the latter. ("Identify" might not be the most correct word.)

The entertainment weekly article quote especially helped clear that up for me.

King Vidiot
Feb 17, 2007

The video arcade made me what I am today!



Coffee And Pie posted:

Danny DeVito and Rhea Perlman have been together for 40 years, there’s a pot for every lid.

I swear I read this as Ron Perlman and my half-awake, hungover brain told me "good for them, making their height difference work!" before I realized what was up.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

If it wasn't for disappointment
I wouldn't have any appointment



Grimey Drawer

Alright friends, let's move past heights and dating preferences. This is about Sexual Assault in the culture of Hollywood, not the types of people we like to gently caress, you goddamned weirdos.

Alan Smithee
Jan 3, 2005



so uh, the whole smash bros community is in upheaval right now

https://twitter.com/Kotaku/status/1281353905075556355?s=20

just to mix things up there's a woman with an underage boy

A Sometimes Food
Dec 8, 2010



Franchescanado posted:

Alright friends, let's move past heights and dating preferences. This is about Sexual Assault in the culture of Hollywood, not the types of people we like to gently caress, you goddamned weirdos.

At least no one posted the Always Sunny "magnum dong" clip?

Alan Smithee posted:

so uh, the whole smash bros community is in upheaval right now

https://twitter.com/Kotaku/status/1281353905075556355?s=20

just to mix things up there's a woman with an underage boy

The FGC in general is getting a huge airing out. EVO the big tournament for fighting games in the US has disintegrated after a bunch of the higher ups got accused as rapists and pedos.

A Sometimes Food fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Jul 10, 2020

Pirate Jet
May 2, 2010


Smash YouTuber Sky Williams is providing us with the answer to “what if Jeffrey Epstein was also a landlord.”

Carthag Tuek
Oct 15, 2005

Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
slægt skal følge slægters gang




I find it hard to believe that Epstein wasn't a landlord.

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.




Alan Smithee posted:

so uh, the whole smash bros community is in upheaval right now

https://twitter.com/Kotaku/status/1281353905075556355?s=20
That's not surprising

quote:

just to mix things up there's a woman with an underage boy

That is, though I guess it shouldn't be.

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




Skwirl posted:

That is, though I guess it shouldn't be.

Kid was a teenager but legit looked like a grade schooler too.

GoutPatrol
Oct 17, 2009

Coal Jobs for the Coal God



Who knew that Nintendo staying far, far away from the Smash community would be one of their smartest moves?

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.




GoutPatrol posted:

Who knew that Nintendo staying far, far away from the Smash community would be one of their smartest moves?

Everyone. Even before this the Smash community was known to be gross and toxic even compared to other fighting games communities.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



I suspect no one has ever lost by staying the gently caress away from online fandoms.

Nissin Cup Nudist
Sep 3, 2011

Sleep with one eye open

We're off to Gritty Gritty land






Alan Smithee posted:

so uh, the whole smash bros community is in upheaval right now

https://twitter.com/Kotaku/status/1281353905075556355?s=20

just to mix things up there's a woman with an underage boy

The tweet and picture makes it looks like it was the Smash characters that were sex pests

Bowser does kidnap women every now and then, so he checks out

Carthag Tuek
Oct 15, 2005

Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
slægt skal følge slægters gang




STAC Goat posted:

I suspect no one has ever lost by staying the gently caress away from online fandoms.

not sure the "online" qualifier is needed there

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pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Groovelord Neato posted:

Kid was a teenager but legit looked like a grade schooler too.

He was 14 and looked like he was 10.

She was 24.

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