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Pirate Jet
May 2, 2010


It’s not really that people didn’t care so much as the Biden campaign hired the “damage control” advisor for Harvey Weinstein and immediately went with a strategy of pointing out a time she had her education wrong on a resume, begging the question of “what ELSE has she lied about!?”

Never mind that she had a legitimately complicated education path and may have just been mistaken, never mind that everybody lies on their resumes, never mind that that doesn’t have anything to do with whether you were raped.

The Reade story was buried in record time. It was almost impressive to watch, only stopped by how much it worsened my depression.

Biden is pointed out as the death of #metoo frequently but I don’t think he was the death so much as confirming something we already knew. It was a dead movement walking the second Louis CK started selling out shows again. I think the only people’s careers it may have legitimately affected were Weinstein and Spacey, and the latter is having all his victims killed and sent the signal to kill Epstein. Allegedly. Parody.

Pirate Jet fucked around with this message at 07:08 on Oct 19, 2020

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HopperUK
Apr 29, 2007

Why would an ambulance be leaving the hospital?

I wonder too how much of Spacey's situation is that he preyed on boys and men. Preying on women is more 'acceptable' in some people's minds I think. More normal.

AceOfFlames
Oct 9, 2012


HopperUK posted:

I wonder too how much of Spacey's situation is that he preyed on boys and men. Preying on women is more 'acceptable' in some people's minds I think. More normal.

So has Bryan Singer and yet he's still apparently doing fine career-wise (though he's also a likely "knows the dirt on a lot of people" case and thus has greater protection).

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

AceOfFlames posted:

So has Bryan Singer and yet he's still apparently doing fine career-wise (though he's also a likely "knows the dirt on a lot of people" case and thus has greater protection).

Is he? He hasn't directed anything since Bohemian Rhapsody in 2018 (which he had his BAFTA nomination removed for due to the allegations after the Atlantic article), and there's nothing upcoming for him either. Even as a producer, he only has an Executive Producer credit on The Gifted from 2017-2019, and again, nothing coming up.

Again, possibly a result of all movies coming to a halt due to the pandemic. But he seems to have absolutely nothing going on right now, and hasn't for a couple of years now. And his film, Red Sonja, was cancelled back in February, before all the Covid poo poo hit the fan with movies.

thrawn527 fucked around with this message at 12:36 on Oct 19, 2020

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

Colonel, there's no exposed breasts in these dark souls

I don’t think you can put the death of #MeToo on Louis CK returning to stage. Louis CK absolutely did face consequences, and still does to this day. Those consequences didn’t end up being “literally exiled to Monster Island”, they were simply “the loss of $50,000,000 in contracts and deals, the complete dissolution of his production company for 2 years, and serious personal and familial loss as his kids won’t even talk to him”.

There is nothing in the #MeToo movement that says the only way to punish an abuser is memory hole them forever and make them disappear. There was also no unilateral understanding or education about the nature of sexual assault. Too many people wanted Louis CK to meet the same fate as Cosby or Weinstein when the fact is... Louis committed a different kind of assault than they did, and ultimately many people don’t think that what he did actually merits being fired into the sun on a rocket ship.

If people buy tickets to a Louis CK show, it’s because they miss him, they want to see him, and maybe they even, as a society, want to forgive him. That’s not his fault, and it’s not something #MeToo can really do anything about.

#MeToo was like an Occupy Sexual Assault movement: it has lots of great ideas but overall was not unified in its goals. As a movement it encompassed too many things to too many people and while it got some big wins and changed the discourse, I think Tara Reade was the cultural breakpoint at which everyone who stood up and told Al Franken that the only correct choice is to step down and be responsible then turned around and called Reade an unreliable nutcase and ignored her. Al Franken was an acceptable sacrifice for the movement, Joe Biden was NOT seen as an acceptable loss, but an important figure in this new Anti-Trump era. The full might of the political left pivoted from #MeToo and Believe Women into “don’t believe this lying deadbeat” while Joe Biden literally travelled around the country, making women and young girls visibly uncomfortable on camera for like a year.

Space Cadet Omoly
Jan 15, 2014

Hic puer est




wizardofloneliness posted:

Honestly, when it comes to people who have had their careers totally destroyed by #MeToo, only Spacey, Weinstein, and R. Kelly come to mind. Cosby too, but those allegations had been out there for years. It seems like most of the other guys just laid low for a while and then started back up again without too much trouble.

Does R. Kelly count? He openly sexually assaulted underage girls, among other terrible things, for over two decades. Was there anything that came out during #MeToo that wasn't already public knowledge?

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017
Probation
Can't post for 3 hours!


Hard to say, a lot of #MeToo was basically 'actual consequences for actions that have been well known or even public knowledge for decades'.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

Colonel, there's no exposed breasts in these dark souls

R Kelly also had a huge “Leaving Neverland” style documentary come out that had been in the works long before the movement began.

Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011






Bust Rodd posted:

I don’t think you can put the death of #MeToo on Louis CK returning to stage. Louis CK absolutely did face consequences, and still does to this day. Those consequences didn’t end up being “literally exiled to Monster Island”, they were simply “the loss of $50,000,000 in contracts and deals, the complete dissolution of his production company for 2 years, and serious personal and familial loss as his kids won’t even talk to him”.

He should've faced legal consequences because what he did is actually illegal. I also think it's hosed up to focus on the consequences that the assaulter had to face instead of the consequences that his victims had to face:
https://www.thecut.com/2018/08/what-about-the-careers-of-louis-ck-victims.html

Alhazred fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Oct 19, 2020

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

how few people do you
need before you can
change the world?


Space Cadet Omoly posted:

Does R. Kelly count? He openly sexually assaulted underage girls, among other terrible things, for over two decades. Was there anything that came out during #MeToo that wasn't already public knowledge?

He also got seven shades of poo poo kicked out of him in prison recently.

Pirate Jet
May 2, 2010


Bust Rodd posted:

I don’t think you can put the death of #MeToo on Louis CK returning to stage. Louis CK absolutely did face consequences, and still does to this day. Those consequences didn’t end up being “literally exiled to Monster Island”, they were simply “the loss of $50,000,000 in contracts and deals, the complete dissolution of his production company for 2 years, and serious personal and familial loss as his kids won’t even talk to him”.

Oh no the multi-millionaire lost a chance to become an even bigger multi-millionaire. What a consequence. Meanwhile Dave Chappelle and Sarah Silverman are doing their damndest to make sure he’s exactly as wealthy and prominent as he used to be despite assaulting multiple women.

I should’ve known you would show up the second I mentioned CK.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

Colonel, there's no exposed breasts in these dark souls

That’s weird I don’t even know who you are

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

how few people do you
need before you can
change the world?


Bust Rodd posted:

That’s weird I don’t even know who you are

Only lovely posters become notorious.

enki42
Jun 11, 2001
#ATMLIVESMATTER

Put this Nazi-lover on ignore immediately!


It's plainly obvious that there's portions of society view what Louis CK did as forgivable. Bust Rodd isn't saying that's good or acceptable, he's saying that is what's happening. It doesn't help anyone to deny an obvious, observable fact.

I think a lot of who faced consequences and who didn't with #metoo comes down to society's understanding of consent and sexual assault still assuming that consent is implied by default, and it's only sexual assault if there's unamiguous, consistent denial of consent. Most of the cases of people who "didn't face consequences" (I think everyone faced some consequences, but the ones whose careers weren't ruined) were cases where it didn't match the picture people have in their head of rape and sexual assault - that it only counts if the victim is screaming "no" over and over.

For cases like Aziz Ansari or Louis CK, there was enough grey area when looked through that lens to make them forgivable to some people. Not for everyone for sure, but you don't need most people or even a super significant amount of people to forgive you to maintain a career.

muscles like this!
Jan 17, 2005




thrawn527 posted:

Is he? He hasn't directed anything since Bohemian Rhapsody in 2018 (which he had his BAFTA nomination removed for due to the allegations after the Atlantic article), and there's nothing upcoming for him either. Even as a producer, he only has an Executive Producer credit on The Gifted from 2017-2019, and again, nothing coming up.

Again, possibly a result of all movies coming to a halt due to the pandemic. But he seems to have absolutely nothing going on right now, and hasn't for a couple of years now. And his film, Red Sonja, was cancelled back in February, before all the Covid poo poo hit the fan with movies.

Although it is hard to say if the allegations are causing his work downturn or his actions on the set of Bohemian Rhapsody where he just kind of abandoned the movie partway through filming. The second part is more of a bottom line problem which is something studios actually care about.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

Colonel, there's no exposed breasts in these dark souls

Absolutely. There has to be room for nuance in the discussion because otherwise no one is actually communicating if they aren’t talking about the same things.

PizzaProwler
Nov 4, 2009

Or you can see me at The Riviera. Tuesday nights.
Pillowfights with Dominican mothers.

Rhyno posted:

Only lovely posters become notorious.

:ironicat:

The Peccadillo
Mar 3, 2013

We Have Important Work To Do


muscles like this! posted:

Although it is hard to say if the allegations are causing his work downturn or his actions on the set of Bohemian Rhapsody where he just kind of abandoned the movie partway through filming. The second part is more of a bottom line problem which is something studios actually care about.

I thought those two things were related, people were suddenly like "hey aren't you the guy... " while he was wrapping it up in 2017 and he went all "excuse me I have a family emergency in a country that doesn't have an extradition treaty with the United States"

The Peccadillo fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Oct 19, 2020

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Bust Rodd posted:

Absolutely. There has to be room for nuance in the discussion because otherwise no one is actually communicating if they aren’t talking about the same things.

That really opened a crack in #metoo. Louis CK was a gross man who violated and harassed woman in a fundamentally different way then Weinstein and was treated as the same. That gave cover to people like Chappelle to turn it into "I'm jaq-ing here" bits that mocked the whole idea of consequences and accountability if everyone is treated like a serial rapist. Then you got all the people who felt comfortable saying that CK was bad but not a rapist so it wasn't fair to him to suffer like he did.

The Aziz Ansari story was another that did damage as the the initial blowback from the article was met with very public social media 'sarcasm' from the author. What could've been a point in the conversation about harassment, women socially conditioned to behave 'acceptably' in these difficult situations, and men (especially male feminists) having an unclear understanding about consent, was shredded by a minor media company hoping to launch into the big time off the back of a juicy story.

graventy
Jul 27, 2006




Fun Shoe

JnnyThndrs posted:

Al Franken got MeToo’d as well.

He's also on his way back, just as a op ed commentator now, but I wouldn't be that surprised if he couldn't win again as a Senator. It angers me a lot how little empathy people have for victims.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

how few people do you
need before you can
change the world?



I am fully aware of my statement.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010


pentyne posted:

The Aziz Ansari story was another that did damage as the the initial blowback from the article was met with very public social media 'sarcasm' from the author. What could've been a point in the conversation about harassment, women socially conditioned to behave 'acceptably' in these difficult situations, and men (especially male feminists) having an unclear understanding about consent, was shredded by a minor media company hoping to launch into the big time off the back of a juicy story.

Don't forget the big time media outlets getting into a pissing match with the small one, angry that someone else was on their turf. That was such a goddamn shitshow.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Snowman_McK posted:

Don't forget the big time media outlets getting into a pissing match with the small one, angry that someone else was on their turf. That was such a goddamn shitshow.

It was less that then babe.net ignored a ton of journalistic ethics standards in their pursuit of a scoop leaving them wildly open to extensive valid criticism, although the female NYT editorial writers 100% took the chance to eviscerate the #metoo movement in general off using that article as proof.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010


pentyne posted:

It was less that then babe.net ignored a ton of journalistic ethics standards in their pursuit of a scoop leaving them wildly open to extensive valid criticism, although the female NYT editorial writers 100% took the chance to eviscerate the #metoo movement in general off using that article as proof.

Didn't it actually turn out that article was essentially true and it was, most likely, a cynical attempt to nitpick and undercut the story because they were a small media outlet who'd gotten the scoop on the big ones?

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Snowman_McK posted:

Didn't it actually turn out that article was essentially true and it was, most likely, a cynical attempt to nitpick and undercut the story because they were a small media outlet who'd gotten the scoop on the big ones?

All of the major criticisms of the article were on the presumption it was true. It wasn't some earth shattering scoop, and Aziz respond pretty quickly saying it happened and he assumed the whole encounter was consensual and he faced essentially 0 consequences.

The backlash was that babe.net wanted to frame it like they were the next Ronan Farrow landing a massive whale of an expose but what happened was their actions and tabloid journalism distracted from the actual substance of the story and opened the door for all the critics to point to that publication as as symptom of the movement going too far and trying to equate a "bad date" with sexual assault and rape.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






man everytime I think Aziz Ansari, I think of the "hook"

Coffee And Pie
Nov 4, 2010

"Blah-sum"?
More like "Blawesome"


Shageletic posted:

man everytime I think Aziz Ansari, I think of the "hook"

You’re thinking of Blues Traveler

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

Coffee And Pie posted:

You’re thinking of Blues Traveler

It does bring me back.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010


pentyne posted:

All of the major criticisms of the article were on the presumption it was true. It wasn't some earth shattering scoop, and Aziz respond pretty quickly saying it happened and he assumed the whole encounter was consensual and he faced essentially 0 consequences.

The backlash was that babe.net wanted to frame it like they were the next Ronan Farrow landing a massive whale of an expose but what happened was their actions and tabloid journalism distracted from the actual substance of the story and opened the door for all the critics to point to that publication as as symptom of the movement going too far and trying to equate a "bad date" with sexual assault and rape.

That doesn't sound like it's Babe's fault. It sounds like the fault of the culture at large. I remember the details. It was a creepy as poo poo story and Ansari facing no consequences, and being able to focus on how hard the incident was on him is exactly par for the course. We've done the same for much more horrible incidents and it's weird to put that on Babe.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

Colonel, there's no exposed breasts in these dark souls

What should have happened to Aziz for the encounter in the story Bape.net published?

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010


Bust Rodd posted:

What should have happened to Aziz for the encounter in the story Bape.net published?

a general consensus that he's a creep.

well why not
Feb 9, 2009





He did go away for a few mohts, it was definitely damaging to his career. if you google "aziz ansari" the first result is "the humiliation of Aziz Ansari". #3 is a vox article about it. His last netflix show addresses it, apparently. Though, the fact that he has a more recent netflix show kind of shows he'll probably be OK.

I still think he's a creep and it's pretty clear he's trying to remodel his persona. The sharp suits got replaced with a band shirt and some vans.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010


well why not posted:

He did go away for a few mohts, it was definitely damaging to his career. if you google "aziz ansari" the first result is "the humiliation of Aziz Ansari". #3 is a vox article about it. His last netflix show addresses it, apparently. Though, the fact that he has a more recent netflix show kind of shows he'll probably be OK.

I still think he's a creep and it's pretty clear he's trying to remodel his persona. The sharp suits got replaced with a band shirt and some vans.

I read the Atlantic article, it's by Caitlin Flanagan and so somehow manages to be the absolute worst take anyone could have. It's also really sympathetic to him and stops just short of saying the girl is just acting from rejection. (i mean, it actually says that, but in a 'just asking questions' kind of way)

The Vox article is better, which really should be a loving wake up call for the Atlantic. They'll keep Flanagan around though, even though she's the worst writer at a publication that also published two articles by a guy arguing there was a moral imperative to carpet bomb Iran.

well why not
Feb 9, 2009





the worst take? did you miss the Bari Weiss one?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/15/opinion/aziz-ansari-babe-sexual-harassment.html

quote:

Aziz Ansari Is Guilty. Of Not Being a Mind Reader.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010



fair. I'm just a lot more familiar with Flanagan's ability to be really wrong and stupid even when she's being right.

Len
Jan 21, 2008

Pouches, bandages, shoulderpad, cyber-eye...

Bitchin'!




Didn't the Babe article also get the woman doxed because in their rush to print they didn't blur anywhere near enough personal details?

DrVenkman
Dec 27, 2005

I think he can hear you, Ray.


Len posted:

Didn't the Babe article also get the woman doxed because in their rush to print they didn't blur anywhere near enough personal details?

I'm pretty sure she outed herself on Twitter.

Aside from the reactionary bad takes, the site and the author of the piece did come under fire for some stuff from other journalists (which the author of the piece decided was down to jealousy) on Twitter, mainly because it did seem rushed out there and poorly reported.

A piece should establish, for example, if she felt threatened by Ansari, was she made to stay there by him. Partly to establish the facts as you understand them and partly because you want to head off those kinds of questions to begin with.

A lot of bad takes were spawned out of the reporting not doing a good enough job at that, which is why the narrative shifted to he's not a mind reader, or, he was clearly just interested in loving and she kept hanging around because she thought she was going to date a celebrity.

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




There was a lot of downplaying of the article because I guess women are just supposed to accept bad sex I guess. For a guy of his age the Aziz stuff is super embarrassing that's like fumbling high school boy poo poo.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

Colonel, there's no exposed breasts in these dark souls

So there’s absolutely no room in the conversation for believing Aziz when he says “I invited a woman over to my house for dinner and drinks, we hooked up a couple times but she didn’t want to sleep with me and then she left, and now I’m suddenly really surprised to find out she feels like I dominated and disrespected her.” then?

Like at some point I feel like the discussion in this thread just veers completely into “all men are lying monsters and every accusation is always 100% true”. and anyone who isn’t on the “banish all sex pests to Monster Prison Island” is automatically viewed as some kind of rape sympathizer and you just bust out some absurd “oh your JAQ-ing! You’re sealioning! This is a trick to force us to engage with your stupid questions!” pseudo-defense that renders all conversation void, and that’s not discourse, that’s ideology, and it’s not a healthy way to progress a community’s viewpoint.

If a man is genuinely confused by the circumstances, how are they supposed apologize if everyone just assumes they actually a serial predator and not just a guy misreading signals? Men are expected to both know better but also to never gently caress up in the first place? How does that work?

I remember very concretely the Aziz story being a common topic on conversation and the consensus being (among my partner and lady friends) that the woman in the article was being unreasonable and that her words, as written, make her seem like a very dizzy and confusing person. The “I prefer this wine but he gave me that wine” poo poo, and all that. It’s very easy for lots of people to empathize with someone who thinks things are going well and then it turns out other things are happening.

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thekeeshman
Feb 21, 2007


Groovelord Neato posted:

There was a lot of downplaying of the article because I guess women are just supposed to accept bad sex I guess. For a guy of his age the Aziz stuff is super embarrassing that's like fumbling high school boy poo poo.

Is the metoo movement now about bad sex too? It's not surprising that the movement faded when people were lumping together Cosby drugging and raping 50 women with Ansari not asking his date what kind of wine she would like.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

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