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Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




There's an extensive recent history of progressive movements being taken over and often irreparably damaged by obvious clout-chasing at the expense of actually accomplishing anything.

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Space Cadet Omoly
Jan 15, 2014

Yay




Ghost Leviathan posted:

There's an extensive recent history of progressive movements being taken over and often irreparably damaged by obvious clout-chasing at the expense of actually accomplishing anything.

Yeah, the #MeToo movement started out as ordinary women speaking up about their experiences with sexual assault in order to show how tragically common the problem is in everyday life, and then somehow it morphed into just being about celebrities.

Carthag Tuek
Oct 15, 2005

Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
slægt skal følge slægters gang




The original #MeToo went away super fast in Denmark, but we're having another go at it after a popular tv host told about an exec who wanted her to suck his dick or he'd ruin her career. A lot of women and men in several fields have made group declarations about their experiences and are generally not naming names publicly, in order to keep the focus on it being a cultural issue, not just bad apples.

There's been a couple of firings in broadcast media & traditional publishing, but the biggest fallout so far is the leader of the mid-sized political party Radikale Venstre having to resign as well as the mayor of Copenhagen.

Some English-language articles:

https://www.vice.com/en/article/akzb45/denmark-media-industry-metoo-sofie-linde
https://www.thelocal.dk/20201008/leader-of-danish-political-party-steps-down-over-sexual-harassment-case
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...ent/ar-BB1abjSR

Precambrian
Apr 30, 2008



Aziz Ansari's story isn't that hard to puzzle out as an ethical conundrum. A woman was in a scenario where a man started getting sexually aggressive, and she had to strategize her response because if she starts saying a hard no, she has to assess whether or not that's going to end with him retaliating against her career, him harassing her, or worse, him threatening her or flat-out getting raped. She was frightened by his (very inappropriate) behavior and left a date with the knowledge that it could have gone much worse. Aziz didn't rape anyone, never intended to, but he clearly inflicted harm. The appropriate response is an apology, one that takes into account that regardless of intent, harm was still inflicted, and that he takes full responsibility for his behavior.

For all the tedious jokes about how "men are terrible," men like Aziz need to start acknowledging that their behavior, especially towards sex and especially towards them pushing for sex, isn't read in the context of "hey, it's that lovable guy from Parks and Rec!" it's "What safety precautions do I have to take to avoid being assaulted?" Women having to do the math of wounded egos and male entitlement means that they're inherently on dangerous and uncertain ground. Aziz could acknowledge his ignorance of the reality he dwelt in and agree that it's a bad thing that a woman had an encounter with him that left her terrified.

Bust Rodd posted:

So there’s absolutely no room in the conversation for believing Aziz when he says “I invited a woman over to my house for dinner and drinks, we hooked up a couple times but she didn’t want to sleep with me and then she left, and now I’m suddenly really surprised to find out she feels like I dominated and disrespected her.” then?

This is actually a really bad take! The overwhelming underlying reality of MeToo isn't about the Matt Lauer/Harvey Weinstein types cackling as they rape women, it's about the multitudes of ways where society allows men to think they're "the good guy" while a bunch of terrified women scurry out of their way. John Lasseter is a great example of this, he just thought he was a fun-loving guy who liked attractive women. Who doesn't! And if he pinches someone's butt, he's just gotta have a talk with HR so that everyone knows he's just playing around. Besides, when he had a talk with the girl, she told him it was all cool between them, surely, she had no reason to feel coerced into reinforcing John's worldview that he's a fun guy.

I have no doubt John feels like he got blindsided by MeToo, that he's the victim here, because he never had to think of the issue from any perspective outside of one that centered his privileged position. Aziz's sense that it was just "we hooked up a couple times but she didn’t want to sleep with me" is a huge part of the problem. His ignorance is the conversation, because society is slanted to protect male emotions over all else, even if women feel terrified and have to gamble if saying "no" will destroy their careers or so much worse. That he didn't actually do anything doesn't mean that he's not the beneficiary of an ugly system and, importantly, that he left this woman any less frightened for her safety.

Your sympathies are entirely directed by society at these poor bumblers who just don't realize that their behavior is actually really scary instead of cute because there's a system that centers men's emotions as the perspective all situations are to be viewed from. It's the exact same issue with cops "fearing for their life." I don't doubt many cops live in a constant ecosystem of fear. So do the people who encounter them. But in bad encounters, one side gets their emotional state prioritized.

thekeeshman posted:

Is the metoo movement now about bad sex too? It's not surprising that the movement faded when people were lumping together Cosby drugging and raping 50 women with Ansari not asking his date what kind of wine she would like.

In discussing police racism, I hear stories from black men of how the police humiliated and demeaned them at things like traffic stops. These stories don't end with anyone getting shot, but I wouldn't consider them "lumped together" with George Floyd, because the known possibility that cops can become intensely dangerous at a drop of a hat informs the entire spectrum of experience. The MeToo movement is built around this same spectrum of escalation. Our Babe writer is speaking from an experience where she had to calculate if she'd just made a dangerous mistake with a man as he was starting to get aggressive, because she knew that men escalate fast from nice guys to monsters.

Crespolini
Mar 9, 2014



A known issue with the Ansari article was how the author started it off by saying she wanted red wine with her fish. That kind of stuff makes a lot of people see red, no pun intended, and people were very open about how it made them read the rest of it through a hostile lens. Big misstep.

Ansari sucks though, for sure.

Baudolino
Apr 1, 2010

THUNDERDOME LOSER

Aziz was in that situation perhaps similar to fratdude who organizes a party on a boat with a bunch of his friends and some local women. One of the women migth feel like they better suck them off even if she finds them unappealing because of the implications inherit to the situation. What the guys were really thinking no one can ever know, probably the idea that she felt threatened never entered their minds. So the sin lies with longstanding cultural norms that allows circumstances like that to occur and not so much with the fratdude himself.
A love the sinner hate the sin situation.
Aziz did`nt do a bad thing himself but he was representative of bad things. There is a world of difference between him and wanker Lois.
His netflix show wasn`t that great tough, very self-indulgent. His fall was no great tragedy for the arts.

KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


Baudolino posted:

Aziz was in that situation perhaps similar to fratdude who organizes a party on a boat with a bunch of his friends and some local women. One of the women migth feel like they better suck them off even if she finds them unappealing because of the implications inherit to the situation. What the guys were really thinking no one can ever know, probably the idea that she felt threatened never entered their minds. So the sin lies with longstanding cultural norms that allows circumstances like that to occur and not so much with the fratdude himself.
A love the sinner hate the sin situation.
Aziz did`nt do a bad thing himself but he was representative of bad things. There is a world of difference between him and wanker Lois.
His netflix show wasn`t that great tough, very self-indulgent. His fall was no great tragedy for the arts.

Aziz did do a bad thing. He made a woman super uncomfortable and ignored her signals hoping he could change her mind about sex. Just because he didn't rape her doesn't make what he did okay. You are doing the exact thing that Precambrian discussed in their post - excusing him on the grounds of 'how could he know' when with a single second of empathy and self-reflection on his part and he would have known.

That's the whole point of this. Doing a bad thing doesn't make him a bad person forever, but not being a 'bad person' doesn't make the thing not bad.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


KitConstantine posted:

Aziz did do a bad thing. He made a woman super uncomfortable and ignored her signals hoping he could change her mind about sex. Just because he didn't rape her doesn't make what he did okay. You are doing the exact thing that Precambrian discussed in their post - excusing him on the grounds of 'how could he know' when with a single second of empathy and self-reflection on his part and he would have known.

That's the whole point of this. Doing a bad thing doesn't make him a bad person forever, but not being a 'bad person' doesn't make the thing not bad.

It's hard to take his apology seriously since he had positioned himself as this ultra woke Times Up figure.

At best he's a complete moron who is so out of touch and unable to emphasize with women he can't even tell when a women is uncomfortable making him a defacto non-ally.

At worst he's a loving piece of poo poo who thinks anything short of whipping it out or grabbing their neck to force them is 100% okay to do to women.

What the article failed tremendously at, and what a good journalist would've focused on, is how Aziz's behavior is not atypical from men who see women as simply a means for their own pleasure but aren't actually sex offenders, and how women are socially conditioned to put up with and go along that kind of lovely treatment for the sake of decorum.

Her options at that point were bad and trying to non verbally signal to someone you aren't interested in the slightest is one of the only things women can do to not be called a crazy bitch who must've been on their period.

Freaquency
May 10, 2007

"Yes I can hear you, I don't have ear cancer!"

It’s hard to feel bad for Ansari when he could have used this incident to point out how easy it is to take advantage of that power dynamic even if you think of yourself as an ally and call it out, while accepting responsibility for his actions that night and offering a genuine apology. Instead he equivocated and then talked about how he was cancelled or whatever in his next special (apparently, I didn’t bother giving him any views after that).

KitConstantine
Jan 11, 2013

Ask me about women's ~Science~


pentyne posted:


What the article failed tremendously at, and what a good journalist would've focused on, is how Aziz's behavior is not atypical from men who see women as simply a means for their own pleasure but aren't actually sex offenders, and how women are socially conditioned to put up with and go along that kind of lovely treatment for the sake of decorum.

Her options at that point were bad and trying to non verbally signal to someone you aren't interested in the slightest is one of the only things women can do to not be called a crazy bitch who must've been on their period.

I think that's the hard thing for men to acknowledge - a lot of men who don't see themselves as bad guys have done the thing Aziz did. Therefore it must not be bad because if it is then they are just as guilty, and that can't possibly be true.

SunshineDanceParty
Feb 7, 2006

One Road. Two Friends. One Ass.


KitConstantine posted:

I think that's the hard thing for men to acknowledge - a lot of men who don't see themselves as bad guys have done the thing Aziz did. Therefore it must not be bad because if it is then they are just as guilty, and that can't possibly be true.

Yeah people talk about when metoo failed, but it never hit because tons of people rejected the self reflection that was being asked.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
ASK ME ABOUT MY SELF-PUBLISHED WARHAMMER FANFICTION AND MY KNIFE COLLECTION


DrVenkman posted:

which is why the narrative shifted to he's not a mind reader, or, he was clearly just interested in loving and she kept hanging around because she thought she was going to date a celebrity.

Yeah, that's why. It's certainly not because that's our default response in every case of a celebrity being a sex pest, whether it's them being creepy or being an out and out human trafficker.

Baudolino posted:

Aziz was in that situation perhaps similar to fratdude who organizes a party on a boat with a bunch of his friends and some local women. One of the women migth feel like they better suck them off even if she finds them unappealing because of the implications inherit to the situation. What the guys were really thinking no one can ever know, probably the idea that she felt threatened never entered their minds. So the sin lies with longstanding cultural norms that allows circumstances like that to occur and not so much with the fratdude himself.
A love the sinner hate the sin situation.
Aziz did`nt do a bad thing himself but he was representative of bad things. There is a world of difference between him and wanker Lois.
His netflix show wasn`t that great tough, very self-indulgent. His fall was no great tragedy for the arts.

I see Dennis Reynolds has joined the conversation.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Parakeet vs. Phone
Nov 6, 2009


It also feels like we're getting kind of straying from the point, since while I'm sure there were people calling for his head, the herd of cats seemed to mostly just want him to admit that he was being a creep and step away from trying to be a front and center male ally. The reason it stayed a story at all was that you had another self-proclaimed ally showing off his #TimesUp button in public, and then at best, treating women like poo poo in private.

The worst I remember toward "canceling" was a few people pointing out that his show would be super awkward now since it focused so much on dating (I have no idea if that's true, never really watched it).

There was also a push for more talking about affirmative consent, but that just got buried by all the people screaming that it was just a bad date.

If anything the big problem was a lot of people doing this dumb "Oh, so you want him jailed for life huh!" poo poo when most people just want the barest accountability. It's the same poo poo as in the Kavanaugh hearing. No, I don't want to ruin his life, I just don't think he should become literally one of the most important people in the country.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Groovelord Neato posted:

There was a lot of downplaying of the article because I guess women are just supposed to accept bad sex I guess. For a guy of his age the Aziz stuff is super embarrassing that's like fumbling high school boy poo poo.

I reread the article and Aziz clearly would not acknowledge her verbal and nonverbal cues to not have sex. Esp btw a 22 yr old and a 34 year old, its sickening, and so is the physicality of the encounter, with her literally trying to fight him off.

Babe net seems to have had horrible managing tho, and a male dominated hierarchy of a front facing female org, that invariably collapsed on sexual misdeeds by the male proprietors and Facebook collectively dunking smaller sites in favor of Dan Bongino and Tucker Carlson https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thecut.com/amp/2019/06/babe-net-aziz-ansari-date-rise-and-fall.html

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Bust Rodd posted:

So there’s absolutely no room in the conversation for believing Aziz when he says “I invited a woman over to my house for dinner and drinks, we hooked up a couple times but she didn’t want to sleep with me and then she left, and now I’m suddenly really surprised to find out she feels like I dominated and disrespected her.” then?



Why should we believe Aziz? The victim whose coming out ultimately got her and her mother death threats said she said no repeatedly, Aziz would stop, then manhandle her repeatedly over the course of the night.

Your take strikes me as similar to ppl who wonder why women dont run from these encounters, when first hand accounts and science shows that women are too overwhelmed by fear and social obligations to do nothing but shut down.

This woman was barely out of college. Its loving sickening.

E: based on the errors on this page, I'm urging anyone who wants to talk about this to reread the article, please.

E2: there are alot of takes here I agree with: https://www.thelily.com/how-18-women-responded-to-grace-and-the-aziz-ansari-allegation/

Shageletic fucked around with this message at 13:49 on Oct 21, 2020

John Wick of Dogs
Mar 4, 2017

A real hellraiser



I just watched this thing on Amazon called What the Constitution Means to Me which was kind of a play/personal memoir of this lady. It was really good and has a lot about this kind of thing.

At one point she recounts being in a car with a cute boy as a teenager and kissing him, and before she knows it her pants are off. She knows this guy would never hurt her. 30 years later she's still sure with a 99.9% certainty he would not have hurt her and is friends with him on Facebook. But she didn't really want to gently caress him. But she did anyway because she didn't want to be impolite. And lots of women have stories like this.

It's a super hosed up social dynamic even when the guy is nice and sweet like she says that guy in the car was. If a guy is being pushy and testing boundaries I'd have to imagine that would be legit terrifying.

LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002


Ansari literally wrote the book on modern dating, did a ton of research, and had extended bits in both his standup and Master of None about how women have to be afraid of men.

The idea that he didn't know exactly what he was doing is laughable.

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

WSAENOTSOCK posted:

Ansari literally wrote the book on modern dating, did a ton of research, and had extended bits in both his standup and Master of None about how women have to be afraid of men.

The idea that he didn't know exactly what he was doing is laughable.

Yeah, when he came up again in this thread, I went back and read the article again because I didn't remember the details well. And it's much worse than I remember. He pulls the, "No it's fine, we don't have to do anything you're not comfortable with...but here's my penis, how about you give me a blowjob?" routine several times, after she's made it clear she doesn't want to do anything like that. Like, one time would be bad. He does not just do this one time. This wasn't a "bad date".

Famethrowa
Oct 5, 2012



thrawn527 posted:

Yeah, when he came up again in this thread, I went back and read the article again because I didn't remember the details well. And it's much worse than I remember. He pulls the, "No it's fine, we don't have to do anything you're not comfortable with...but here's my penis, how about you give me a blowjob?" routine several times, after she's made it clear she doesn't want to do anything like that. Like, one time would be bad. He does not just do this one time. This wasn't a "bad date".

I seriously wish people who made those claims would reread the article. parts of it are pretty loving distressing how predatory they are. he literally chased her around the apartment like Pepe Le'Pew.

Carthag Tuek
Oct 15, 2005

Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
slægt skal følge slægters gang




Ansari writing that reminds me of that episode of Louie where he's trying to rape Pamela Adlon. It's played weird, he's being gross and rapey but also he's very bad at it, so he's ultimately harmless & thus it's okay

iirc this was before CK was named publicly (but the rumors had moved outside the industry) so its like he's putting up a defense for his audience to refer back to. CK and Ansari both clearly knew what they did was wrong, but if you can just play it off as ~oops im a dumbass~ it's fine

everyone knows if they've crossed a line. It's how you deal with crossing the line that matters.

MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007





Depp lost his libel suit and it was ruled a pet likely pooped in his bed*, not Amber Heard.

In more seriousness, the judge ruled that claims of Depps abuse had enough evidence to be shown as "substantially true". According to CNN news.

E:
Depps lawyers are likely to appeal saying the judgement is flawed.

*a quote from Page Six

MacheteZombie fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Nov 2, 2020

Lovely Joe Stalin
Jun 12, 2007

Our Lovely Wang


They're unlikely to get anywhere with appealing the judge's "findings of fact".

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





My feed is full of hot takes about Depp and Heard, is this a situation where both people are being abusive dicks towards each other?

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.




McCloud posted:

My feed is full of hot takes about Depp and Heard, is this a situation where both people are being abusive dicks towards each other?

Based on the recorded conversations between the 2 of them Heard was absolutely the abuser.

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





Skwirl posted:

Based on the recorded conversations between the 2 of them Heard was absolutely the abuser.

So is Depp then doubly the victim here? Both by Heard and the justice system? Even if Heard was abusive, if Depp struck her isn't he abusive too, or was that a case of self defense?

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.




McCloud posted:

So is Depp then doubly the victim here? Both by Heard and the justice system? Even if Heard was abusive, if Depp struck her isn't he abusive too, or was that a case of self defense?

I don't think Depp ever actually hit her.

New Super Metis
Aug 1, 2014




Skwirl posted:

I don't think Depp ever actually hit her.

Sorry, you don't think? Is that based on anything, or are you just throwing that out there as a feeling?

From the Guardian:

quote:

Heard said Depp, after drinking heavily, had thrown objects at her, slapped her in the face and then kicked her in the back, causing her to fall over. He threw his boot at her on the floor, and passed out in the toilet. Denying the account, Depp said he had given her a “playful tap on the bottom with his foot”, and when she reacted badly, he took a pillow to the toilet and slept there. The judge said “this was more than a playful tap”.

While detoxing from painkiller dependency on his private island, Depp was said to have pushed Heard to the ground, slapped her, grabbed her by the hair and kicked a door so hard it splintered. The judge concluded it was “more likely than not he pushed Heard on at least one occasion”.

Over three days in Australia filming Pirates of the Caribbean, Depp was said to have put Heard “in fear of her life”. Heard claimed he had assaulted her multiple times. He severed his fingertip and scrawled graffiti in his blood on the walls. The judge did not accept Heard had been responsible for the severed fingertip through throwing a vodka bottle at Depp. He accepted Heard had been the victim of “sustained and multiple assaults”.

Heard said Depp had hit her “hard and repeatedly” before trying to push her sister down the stairs. The judge accepted Depp had assaulted Heard. Heard admitted hitting Depp, but the judge accepted it had been in defence of her sister.

Heard sounded nasty in that recording, but I don't know why led everyone to completely dismiss her allegations. Sometimes, a person who has abused can act like a piece of poo poo! Doesn't mean her claims were false.

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.




Bingo Cop Metis posted:

Sorry, you don't think? Is that based on anything, or are you just throwing that out there as a feeling?

From the Guardian:


Heard sounded nasty in that recording, but I don't know why led everyone to completely dismiss her allegations. Sometimes, a person who has abused can act like a piece of poo poo! Doesn't mean her claims were false.

The recorded conversations between them had her admitting to committing physical violence against Depp and Depp admitting to shoving her once after she'd thrown things at him. There's also a recorded conversation with her sister where her sister admits that an instance where they claimed Depp had attacked them both that in actuality Heard had attacked her sister.

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

https://twitter.com/darkhorizons/status/1324751860280930304

WB has asked Johnny Depp to resign from the Fantastic Beasts sequels, and he has agreed to do so.

There *dusts hands* all problems with that series solved. Nothing problematic left to see here.

thrawn527 fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Nov 6, 2020

AceOfFlames
Oct 9, 2012


Watch them recast the role with Jared Leto.

Logical move would be to get Colin Farrell back but this is Hollywood.

Carthag Tuek
Oct 15, 2005

Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
slægt skal følge slægters gang




oh man leto is perfect for a rowling film

Macdeo Lurjtux
Jul 5, 2011

BRRREADSTOOORRM!


Watch them do something incredibly braindead and recast the role with a woman. And then you'll have a JK Rowling movie where a man uses magic to turn himself into a woman to further some nefarious scheme.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

how few people do you
need before you can
change the world?


If this resulted in her having a psychotic breakdown that prevented her from ever talking or using Twitter again i think we could deal with it.

AceOfFlames
Oct 9, 2012


Rhyno posted:

If this resulted in her having a psychotic breakdown that prevented her from ever talking or using Twitter again i think we could deal with it.

No, the point is that this would be Rowling showing her TERF beliefs by writing a movie where a man "impersonates" a woman for nefarious purposes. Hell, she did that exact same thing in her latest Cormoran Strike novel.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

how few people do you
need before you can
change the world?


Oh I misunderstood. I thought the idea was to put what she hates in the film to anger her.

So let's not have that then. Someone just go smash her phone.

Desperado Bones
Aug 29, 2009

Cute, adorable, and creepy at the same time!






I've seen a lot of Harry Potter fans saying they are gonna boycott the new movie. They seem to be hardcore stans of Johnny Depp. To be honest, I wonder it they will stand to their word. I really want to see that franchise flop and Rowling have a bigot meltdown and then vanish in to obscurity.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

ASK ME WHY THE HYUNDAI KONA IS THE GREATEST CAR ON GOD'S EARTH, I HAVE STRONG OPINIONS ON THIS SUBJECT


I'm already boycotting Harry Potter stuff because Rowling is a giant hateful TERF but I suppose I can boycott it for this too, why not? It's sad because I did like it growing up and the new game looks like it could be cool, but gently caress Rowling, she's awful.

GrandpaPants
Feb 13, 2006


Free to roam the heavens in man's noble quest to investigate the weirdness of the universe!



Imagine having values where losing Johnny Depp was a bigger deal than supporting a TERF.

Lovely Joe Stalin
Jun 12, 2007

Our Lovely Wang


Sadly I don't think she's loving off any time soon.

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Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011






The movies are poo poo anyway, so nobody is losing much by boycotting them.

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