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Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Matchpoint is great and the hero isn't Woody and if he was a standin for him then itd be perfect, bc the hero is a monster

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davidbix
Jun 14, 2016

Wow, Bix. First K.Rool, then Steve and now SEPHIROTH? Your dream game is real!


So...uh...I was arguing with someone about this poo poo elsewhere and the guy invoked the Yale-New Haven report. Having not looked at the report in a long time (perhaps even going back to before I had much experience doing document-heavy reporting myself), I clicked his Scribd link and was surprised/confused to see that it was just two pages long...with the second page being numbered "40." The PDF link on RadarOnline is dead, so I dug it up on the Wayback Machine, and yup, that's the same two page document: http://web.archive.org/web/20150226044922/https://radaronline.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/yale-new-haven-hospital-allen.pdf/

It sure does amplify the point being made repeatedly that people didn't bother looking very hard for any actual evidence that it looks like Radar published a wildly incomplete version of the report and nobody noticed or called them out over it. Especially when the Radar story was published 5 days after Dylan's NYT op-ed and 3 days before Woody's NYT op-ed; this was an ongoing story at the time. Hell, those two pages don't even include stuff we know is in there like the "dead heads" and "magic hour" comments!

So when you throw in that I caught them selectively editing documents to fit their distorted narratives less than two and a half years later, it sure looks like they futzed with the report (an already sanitized, questionable report!) to benefit Allen:
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/dr-phil-disciplinary-file-isnt-what-radar-online-makes-it-out-to-be/

Martman
Nov 20, 2006

SEXY... defines my posts and my ride


"your article posted:

Dr. Phil’s attorney, Lin Wood, sent us the following
Yikes! that guy really got around

davidbix
Jun 14, 2016

Wow, Bix. First K.Rool, then Steve and now SEPHIROTH? Your dream game is real!


Martman posted:

Yikes! that guy really got around
He was a semi-respectable libel attorney until pretty recently, but similar to Charles Harder in that it was one big case (even if Harder's wasn't actually a defamation case) put him on the map. (Wood's was Richard Jewell.) More legit than Harder, but not at the level of the firms Gawker hired, the lawyers who work in-house for media companies, etc.

Alan Smithee
Jan 3, 2005


Elon Musk vs diver guy put him on the map too

he lost, but it put him on the map

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

Colonel, there's no exposed breasts in these dark souls

That was my big takeaway from the Epstein and Jacko and R-Kelly cases as well.

For some BIZARRE reason, if you were credibly accused of molesting children in the 90’s, your lawyers could just make all of that completely disappear without so much as a single cop knocking at your door! It’s like it really doesn’t matter if you have 15 women all saying they are , like, kindnapped at your house or whatever, if your lawyer knows the game then all that evidence just never seems to go anywhere or lead to anything.

So in the new media landscape, the only clear path to justice these days is just to skip the legal system as it exists and just get the court of public opinion on your side until it’s literally impossible to get an impartial jury because everyone in the country is talking about all the kids you molested.

It loving sucks and I hate it and I wish people like Alan Dershowitz would stop standing up for pedofiles

frankee
Dec 29, 2017



watching 80's music videos and suddenly creeped out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aWhn0Hc8ps

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

Colonel, there's no exposed breasts in these dark souls

I tried convincing my mom that song is about what it’s clearly about and even watching the video in which he is clearly petitioning the child’s father to take her out on a date she refuses to believe it lmao

Alan Smithee
Jan 3, 2005


Bust Rodd posted:

It loving sucks and I hate it and I wish people like Alan Dershowitz would stop standing up for pedofiles

well how else is he supposed to go anywhere

HopperUK
Apr 29, 2007

Why would an ambulance be leaving the hospital?

Bust Rodd posted:

I tried convincing my mom that song is about what it’s clearly about and even watching the video in which he is clearly petitioning the child’s father to take her out on a date she refuses to believe it lmao

I have never heard this song before and holy poo poo that's a new level of creepy. The fact that I can think of two other songs about wanting to gently caress underage girls without even trying is very telling on the culture, I think. 'Young Girl' and 'Thank Heaven (for little girls)' are both just nasty.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




HopperUK posted:

I have never heard this song before and holy poo poo that's a new level of creepy. The fact that I can think of two other songs about wanting to gently caress underage girls without even trying is very telling on the culture, I think. 'Young Girl' and 'Thank Heaven (for little girls)' are both just nasty.

There's literally an entire genre of this.

AFewBricksShy
Jun 19, 2003

of a full load.





HopperUK posted:

I have never heard this song before and holy poo poo that's a new level of creepy. The fact that I can think of two other songs about wanting to gently caress underage girls without even trying is very telling on the culture, I think. 'Young Girl' and 'Thank Heaven (for little girls)' are both just nasty.

I was discussing this song a while ago and realized either eighteen or nineteen totally works with the structure of the first line, but that creepy gently caress picked sixteen.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

Colonel, there's no exposed breasts in these dark souls

Big Jay and Dan Soder go about as in depth into mardones as anyone ever has, including an interview with his longtime personal aide. This is a comedy show on Sirius XM, though, so it's more of a raunchy laugh at how hosed up it is than a self-serious bio-doc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMfgNlm_Wfo

davidbix
Jun 14, 2016

Wow, Bix. First K.Rool, then Steve and now SEPHIROTH? Your dream game is real!


Alan Smithee posted:

Elon Musk vs diver guy put him on the map too

he lost, but it put him on the map
He should have won that case, though!

(The irony of his last major case before he went full Q being about fighting for a man who was wrongfully smeared as a pedophile by a right-wing reactionary is not lost on me.)

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.




Bust Rodd posted:

That was my big takeaway from the Epstein and Jacko and R-Kelly cases as well.

For some BIZARRE reason, if you were credibly accused of molesting children in the 90’s, your lawyers could just make all of that completely disappear without so much as a single cop knocking at your door! It’s like it really doesn’t matter if you have 15 women all saying they are , like, kindnapped at your house or whatever, if your lawyer knows the game then all that evidence just never seems to go anywhere or lead to anything.

So in the new media landscape, the only clear path to justice these days is just to skip the legal system as it exists and just get the court of public opinion on your side until it’s literally impossible to get an impartial jury because everyone in the country is talking about all the kids you molested.

It loving sucks and I hate it and I wish people like Alan Dershowitz would stop standing up for pedofiles

The Epstein stuff was because had dirt on a poo poo ton of heads of state and other powerful people. Alan Dershowitz probably continued to stand up for Epstein because Epstein had some sort of verifiable proof that Dershowitz also hosed children.

Police seized a poo poo ton of dvdrs from Epstein's house, Epstein "commits suicide," we never hear anything again about what was on those dvdrs.

Agent Rush
Aug 30, 2008

You looked, Junker!


frankee posted:

watching 80's music videos and suddenly creeped out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aWhn0Hc8ps

:staredog:

That's how Into The Night starts?! I've only ever heard the chorus/"if I could fly" parts.

King Vidiot
Feb 17, 2007

The video arcade made me what I am today!



Has anything ever actually come out about that guy, or did he just decide to write and perform a really unfortunate song that's incredibly creepy? Because a cursory look at Wikipedia suggests he just wrote a weird loving song and that was basically it.

e: I went and watched the story behind the writing of that song, and it's actually really sweet. I'm more just amazed at how committed he was just going ahead and recording it despite the fact that it comes across like a straightforward pedophile anthem, and the video just reinforces that.

King Vidiot fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Mar 11, 2021

Crosswell
Jun 7, 2007
Lying in a Bombay alley

Yeah and Thank Heaven (for little girls) is a simple and sweet song that I neither particularly like nor dislike. There’s a lot of lovely teenage groupie sex anthems but you guys sure picked some odd targets.

Space Cadet Omoly
Jan 15, 2014

Hic puer est




Crosswell posted:

Yeah and Thank Heaven (for little girls) is a simple and sweet song that I neither particularly like nor dislike. There’s a lot of lovely teenage groupie sex anthems but you guys sure picked some odd targets.

I dunno, in retrospect that entire musical is kind of creepy. Gigi is about a girl being groomed to be a mistress, and the happy ending is her marrying a significantly older man. There's something really unsettling about the whole thing.

Crosswell
Jun 7, 2007
Lying in a Bombay alley

Yeah but at it’s heart it’s just a My Fair Lady retread by the same writers hoping for another cash infusion. The 40s version of gender humour . Nothing more sinister. I could always be wrong, but that’s my hasty take.

Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this


I think the song and plot are both kind of creepy, but Gigi is also based off of a book by Colette, and only a few years beforehand had been turned into a Broadway play that launched Audrey Hepburn's career, so the story itself was in the public consciousness when the film came out. That whole midcentury American relationship with obscenity and the European art cinema movement is so funny to me, iirc it's even parodied in Lolita (which Lerner also adapted into a musical) where Charlotte Haze is so obsessed with Humbert being European (and therefore more cultivated) that she's unable to see that he's very obviously a pedophile.

Jay Lerner was also married eight times (his last wife was like 36 years younger than him or something) and was addicted to amphetamines. What a guy!

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




davidbix posted:

He should have won that case, though!

That was more down to the jury being morons. Though if he could've asked for a bench trial that was on him.

deety
Aug 2, 2004

zombies + sharks = fun



At the risk of getting too off track from Hollywood, it's probably worth mentioning that the play My Fair Lady was based on was probably inspired by real-life misogynist Thomas Day, who adopted two preteen girls in hopes of raising his own ideal wife. Some of his techniques were both mentally and physically abusive. He didn't end up marrying either one, and there were definitely some folks creeped out by the situation. But nobody really stepped in to protect those girls.

Pygmalion-style stories can be creepy enough on their own, but it was disturbing to find out that one of the most familiar takes on the trope may be traced back to a documented case of grooming and child abuse.

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

deety posted:

At the risk of getting too off track from Hollywood, it's probably worth mentioning that the play My Fair Lady was based on was probably inspired by real-life misogynist Thomas Day, who adopted two preteen girls in hopes of raising his own ideal wife. Some of his techniques were both mentally and physically abusive. He didn't end up marrying either one, and there were definitely some folks creeped out by the situation. But nobody really stepped in to protect those girls.

Pygmalion-style stories can be creepy enough on their own, but it was disturbing to find out that one of the most familiar takes on the trope may be traced back to a documented case of grooming and child abuse.

The gently caress? I never knew this.

Crosswell
Jun 7, 2007
Lying in a Bombay alley

Woah. Ok, I concede that it is in fact all very creepy in light of that.

“Day decided to give up on Lucretia, who he did not think could satisfy him intellectually. Sabrina he felt was still a possibility, but her character had to be further strengthened. After dropping hot wax on her arms and hearing her scream, though, he gave up in despair.[3][4]”

Crosswell fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Mar 11, 2021

deety
Aug 2, 2004

zombies + sharks = fun



I don't know if there's any evidence of Shaw flat-out saying the play was partly inspired by Day's story, but this wife-training project was well-known enough that it was referenced for generations after Thomas Day's death. For example, it's used as a subplot in an Anthony Trollope novel, and the character involved shares Day's physical description and educational background.

deety fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Mar 11, 2021

Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this


I'd never heard of this before, how loving terrifying. Sabrina, the girl he didn't give up on (literally discarding a child because she's not shaping up to be a good wife jfc) has a whole wiki page with a lot of horrible details, like the fact that Day was basically a short-tempered incel who wanted a wife that was both demure and ascetic but also able to discuss literature and science and philosophy, or, uh:

quote:

Day extended his tutoring to fortify Sidney against hardship, again based upon his interpretation of Rousseau's Emile. The book explains the concept of "negative education", protecting a person from vices rather than teaching them virtues.[31] Day interpreted this to mean that submitting Sidney to tests of endurance would help to create a woman with hardened nerves.[32] One example given by Rousseau was helping Emile become accustomed to explosions such as fireworks by firing pistols with small amounts of powder near him, gradually increasing the amount of powder. Day, on the other hand, fired a pistol loaded with powder directly at Sidney's petticoat, not telling her that there was no shot in it.[33]

In an attempt to increase her resistance to pain he would drop hot sealing wax on her back and arms or stick pins in her, commanding her not to cry out. He would test her ability to keep secrets by telling her that his life was in danger and she should tell no one.[34] To increase her resistance to the cold, Day instructed Sidney to wade into Stowe Pool until the water reached her neck, then lie in the nearby meadow until her clothes and hair had dried in the sun. Finally, to test her resistance to luxury, he gave her a big box of handmade silk clothes and had her throw them on a fire. Day had limited success with these techniques. Sidney became able to endure hot wax dripped on her arm without flinching, but she did tell others of his secret techniques, and could not help screaming whenever he fired his gun at her.[35]

Also it's extremely funny to me that Shaw hated the idea of Higgins and Eliza ending up together at the end so much that he later wrote an epilogue describing in detail why they should not get married, but even in the initial run the producers changed his original ending, and then every adaptation has had them as an item at the end.

Space Cadet Omoly
Jan 15, 2014

Hic puer est




Magic Hate Ball posted:

I'd never heard of this before, how loving terrifying. Sabrina, the girl he didn't give up on (literally discarding a child because she's not shaping up to be a good wife jfc) has a whole wiki page with a lot of horrible details, like the fact that Day was basically a short-tempered incel who wanted a wife that was both demure and ascetic but also able to discuss literature and science and philosophy, or, uh:

Holy Hell this is horrifying.

This also made me realize why I find Gigi such an uncomfortable film. The movie presents a horrifying concept (child grooming) as something light hearted. It's like making a romantic comedy about the life of Ted Bundy.


Magic Hate Ball posted:

Also it's extremely funny to me that Shaw hated the idea of Higgins and Eliza ending up together at the end so much that he later wrote an epilogue describing in detail why they should not get married, but even in the initial run the producers changed his original ending, and then every adaptation has had them as an item at the end.

See, I can totally see Shaw's point here. However, I can also understand why the audience would want them to get together because most of the play is spent watching these two characters interact in fun ways.

Sometimes the author's intention doesn't always come through in a work and the audience just sees what they want to see.

Aces High
Mar 26, 2010

Nah! A little chocolate will do






I loving hate My Fair Lady, but I think I read somewhere that modern productions (not all, but some) do not have them pair up at the end and thank God for some directors having the stones to not reward Higgins after all that bullshit we are forced to sit through

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.




Aces High posted:

I loving hate My Fair Lady, but I think I read somewhere that modern productions (not all, but some) do not have them pair up at the end and thank God for some directors having the stones to not reward Higgins after all that bullshit we are forced to sit through

Ehh, they could just do a different play. I'm not saying there should be a public canceling of it, but every theater company can only do a handful of plays a year, why does that have to be one of them? just do another Sondheim or something. Bye Bye Birdie is probably do for a revival.

Aces High
Mar 26, 2010

Nah! A little chocolate will do






True but directors change things quite often, this happens more in opera but some of that also has to do with how old they are that you have plenty of options for interpretation even if some things can't fundamentally be changed. Some examples I can think of is the girls dumping their partners at the conclusion of Così fan tutte, Carmen using her final moments to kill Don José (I've also seen some productions where he kills himself), the Count not getting forgiveness at the end of Marriage of Figaro though there are a LOT of things that get done with that one.

This is also just an eternal struggle in opera anyway because when you are dealing with "feminist" or forward-thinking works from 100-300 years old you face the question of "are we going to present it as-is with the explanation of 'this is the way things were' or are we going to adapt it to our time and sensibilities?" and then the question turns to who you want to attract to watch to begin with

Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this


The recent Broadway revival of My Fair Lady essentially framed her return and departure at the end as Higgins coming to terms with her becoming her own woman and leaving, which I thought was kind of nice. Also, as someone who works in the opera industry, the amount of uproar that comes with every staging that attempts to confront the built-in racism and sexism of classic works is so loving absurd. This is kind of getting off-topic but recently Alexander Neef took over the Paris Opera and suggested that they’d have to figure out alternatives to works like La Bayadere to prevent yellowface, and the entire French media machine immediately fell over itself in a panic about “antiracism gone wild”.

It’s so so so stupid.

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.




Again, the Broadway canon is so loving huge and vast, you could just, not do the problematic one instead of trying to fix it.

Hire a song writer and turn a Pinter play into a musical if you need to.

GoutPatrol
Oct 17, 2009

Coal Jobs for the Coal God



Skwirl posted:

Ehh, they could just do a different play. I'm not saying there should be a public canceling of it, but every theater company can only do a handful of plays a year, why does that have to be one of them? just do another Sondheim or something. Bye Bye Birdie is probably do for a revival.

Uh I suggest you read up on the story of Bye Bye birdie again.

Gargamel Gibson
Apr 24, 2014


Bust Rodd posted:

It loving sucks and I hate it and I wish people like Alan Dershowitz would stop standing up for pedofiles

Even himself?

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010



What was his defence for being in the Epstein books again? It was loving bizarre. Something about his wife being there the whole time.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

Colonel, there's no exposed breasts in these dark souls

Snowman_McK posted:

What was his defence for being in the Epstein books again? It was loving bizarre. Something about his wife being there the whole time.

He’s literally in the mansion in FL with some of the girls getting a massage in the room where all the rapes happened. His defenses, in order:
“She looked older”
“I don’t even like massages”
“I kept my underwear on”
“She’s a lying whore”

Alan Dershowitz is seriously one of the worst people on Earth.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Magic Hate Ball posted:

I'd never heard of this before, how loving terrifying. Sabrina, the girl he didn't give up on (literally discarding a child because she's not shaping up to be a good wife jfc) has a whole wiki page with a lot of horrible details, like the fact that Day was basically a short-tempered incel who wanted a wife that was both demure and ascetic but also able to discuss literature and science and philosophy, or, uh:


Also it's extremely funny to me that Shaw hated the idea of Higgins and Eliza ending up together at the end so much that he later wrote an epilogue describing in detail why they should not get married, but even in the initial run the producers changed his original ending, and then every adaptation has had them as an item at the end.

Alot of disturbing stuff on this: heres one of the references how_to_create_the_perfect_wife_by_wendy_moore_biography_of_thomas_day_reviewed.html

But wikipedia as usual bringing the boom

quote:

One example given by Rousseau was helping Emile become accustomed to explosions such as fireworks by firing pistols with small amounts of powder near him, gradually increasing the amount of powder. Day, on the other hand, fired a pistol loaded with powder directly at Sidney's petticoat, not telling her that there was no shot in it.

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




Dershowitz supposedly being a civil libertarian and then destroying a guy's academic career because the guy publicly embarrassed him always flew under the radar so I'm the glad the podcast ALAB recently revived the story.

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Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

Colonel, there's no exposed breasts in these dark souls

Groovelord Neato posted:

Dershowitz supposedly being a civil libertarian and then destroying a guy's academic career because the guy publicly embarrassed him always flew under the radar so I'm the glad the podcast ALAB recently revived the story.

Ture Anon had a two part longform interview with Norman Finklestein like last month if you want more of the story from the man himself. Fink is a total badass.

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