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Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.




Groovelord Neato posted:

I wonder how many people are unaware of what Roman Polanski actually did because it's much worse than "had sex with a 13 year old" which is already something that makes you a monster of the highest order. I don't blame the judge for planning to throw out the plea bargain - Polanski deserved the fifty years the judge wanted to give him.

Yeah, even in whatever wacka-doo world where someone might think a 13 year old could consent to sex, it was not consensual sex. It was a pretty violent rape, iirc.

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inferis
Dec 30, 2003



King Vidiot posted:

And you're basing this on... what? Because she's weird? I mean like, maybe, you could say it "appears to be" the case but there's literally no proof. But then there wasn't "proof" of Asia Argento and that young actor until they were suddenly sleeping together when he came of age, so... I mean maybe.

But we don't know anything right now so :shrug:

It doesn’t matter whether she did anything wrong, it’s in itself incredibly hosed up that an adult woman is sleeping in the same bed as a child without the parents there.

exquisite tea
Apr 21, 2007

Carly shook her glass, willing the ice to melt. "You still haven't told me what the mission is."

She leaned forward. "We are going to assassinate the bad men of Hollywood."




Darko posted:

You arent expected to cheer for him, youre looking forward to the creativity of the kills, which is a slight distinction. 4 was when the series switched over to Freddy kill fun, and its also when the movies strictly switched over to him ignoring his history at all (he had killed every kid of the people that burned him at that point and was now all about eating souls).

The fun kills were already there in Dream Warriors. Welcome to primetime, bitch!

The simple explanation is that the series evolved over time from straightforward horror into horror comedy. When the reboot tried to return Freddy back to his pedophile roots everybody loving hated it.

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013



It also did it really bad because they had this “Freddy innocent???” Angle going for a bit and then it’s like ah nope he was a pedo.

So it was already weird but they made it worse by having him spout off a bunch of classic one liners and poo poo during the end. It was so confused at what it wanted, and the dreams were boring as poo poo.

Only good thing was the micro naps.

Space Cadet Omoly
Jan 15, 2014

Hic puer est




exquisite tea posted:

The fun kills were already there in Dream Warriors. Welcome to primetime, bitch!

The simple explanation is that the series evolved over time from straightforward horror into horror comedy. When the reboot tried to return Freddy back to his pedophile roots everybody loving hated it.

It's also a matter of having something be subtext vs. it being actual text. A lot of horror movies, either intentionally or unintentionally, have themes that invoke a real world fear on a subconscious level. Texas Chain Saw Massacre draws pretty clear parallels to the meat processing industry and how horrifying it would be to get treated the way we treat cattle, It Follows pretty well captures the fear of STD's and being trapped in a relationship you don't want, and Predator is all about that intimidating guy at the gym who's way buffer than you. None of this stuff is ever said out loud, but it's there and it all helps create a certain subtle mood that makes the overt horror more effective.

With the original Nightmare on Elm Street the real world fear they're trying to invoke is that of a sexual predator: You have a dangerous man who attacks teens at their most vulnerable moments and a bunch of useless adults who would rather cover the crime up and pretend it didn't happen instead of actually explain to their kids what's happening so they could protect themselves. Again, it's never said out loud, but the theme is there. The sequels slowly drifted away from subtly invoking this theme and instead focused more on increasingly elaborate dream kills and Robert Englund being delightfully hammy, which is fine. With slashers the serious version of the story is usually told in the first movie, and then the sequels get increasingly weird and comedic (This didn't happen with Friday the 13th though because those movies were stupid nonsense right from the beginning, and I say that with love. Jason rulz 4ever.).

However, then the 2010 remake of Nightmare on Elm Street tries to break away from the comedic tone of the sequels and instead be more "serious" and "dark" and part of the way in which they try to achieve this is by turning the "Freddy is a sexual predator" subtext into text. This was not a good idea. See, when you take a theme that was only implied before and state it out loud it completely changes the tone of the film. Now this subtle mood setter is an actual part of story and the plot is forced to confront it directly, something the 2010 remake of Nightmare on Elm street is totally incapable of doing in a competent way. So instead of a subconscious invoking of fear what you now get is a bunch of clunky uncomfortable scenes where the movie essentially turns to the audience and says "Hey, child molestation" which is jarring and distracts from the horror rather than adding to it.

Space Cadet Omoly fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Mar 13, 2021

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Skwirl posted:

Yeah, even in whatever wacka-doo world where someone might think a 13 year old could consent to sex, it was not consensual sex. It was a pretty violent rape, iirc.

AND he admitted to all of it as part of the plea deal. He openly said "yes I gave drugs and alcohol to a thirteen year old girl, and when she passed out I then raped her"

I am still stunned anyone went to bat for him. I'm assuming a big part of the 90s-recent public support of him was because tons of those people were either guilty of the same kind of behavior or just assumed that's what influential Hollywood types did and it wasn't fair to punish him for it.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



pentyne posted:

AND he admitted to all of it as part of the plea deal. He openly said "yes I gave drugs and alcohol to a thirteen year old girl, and when she passed out I then raped her"

I am still stunned anyone went to bat for him. I'm assuming a big part of the 90s-recent public support of him was because tons of those people were either guilty of the same kind of behavior or just assumed that's what influential Hollywood types did and it wasn't fair to punish him for it.

Honestly it's not really that complicated.

People will look for any possible excuse to justify someone they like doing something terrible, especially if said person is considered a genius or is a friend or whatever. Hollywood is full of people who basically get second chances where a regular person wouldn't because they were in a popular movie.

Darko
Dec 23, 2004



CelticPredator posted:

It also did it really bad because they had this “Freddy innocent???” Angle going for a bit and then it’s like ah nope he was a pedo.

So it was already weird but they made it worse by having him spout off a bunch of classic one liners and poo poo during the end. It was so confused at what it wanted, and the dreams were boring as poo poo.

Only good thing was the micro naps.

It was also stupid because him being falsely accused at that point and creating a horror demon because of that would have been more interesting than a last minute, no he's a pedo swerve. That whole movie was just a waste.

edogawa rando
Mar 20, 2007

Ya like Little Wayne?


Skwirl posted:

Yeah, even in whatever wacka-doo world where someone might think a 13 year old could consent to sex, it was not consensual sex. It was a pretty violent rape, iirc.

Or the implication that "she was trying to further her career."

"What a little slut, getting herself drugged and raped to further her own career." Go leap into a loving volcano if you think that, like.



pentyne posted:

AND he admitted to all of it as part of the plea deal. He openly said "yes I gave drugs and alcohol to a thirteen year old girl, and when she passed out I then raped her"

I am still stunned anyone went to bat for him. I'm assuming a big part of the 90s-recent public support of him was because tons of those people were either guilty of the same kind of behavior or just assumed that's what influential Hollywood types did and it wasn't fair to punish him for it.

"It wasn't rape-rape." Whoopi Goldberg should have that shouted at her from across the street, the loving idiot.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Darko posted:

It was also stupid because him being falsely accused at that point and creating a horror demon because of that would have been more interesting than a last minute, no he's a pedo swerve. That whole movie was just a waste.

I get what you're saying but I don't think there is anything I'd like to see less than the monster of False Rape Accusations.

inferis
Dec 30, 2003



What always happens is people barely tolerate these predators as long as they’re still making popular work but as soon as that stops the stories come out and everyone dramatically slaps their forehead and says omg how did we not realize?

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.




ImpAtom posted:

I get what you're saying but I don't think there is anything I'd like to see less than the monster of False Rape Accusations.

I think keeping it ambiguous would have been better. Yes, child predators are terrible, no you shouldn't form a literal lynch mob when suspect someone is one the and burn them alive. Like, keep you kids away and report them to the police.

Darko
Dec 23, 2004



ImpAtom posted:

I get what you're saying but I don't think there is anything I'd like to see less than the monster of False Rape Accusations.

Make Freddy black then.

Edit: crap, basically just re-invented Candyman.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






pentyne posted:

AND he admitted to all of it as part of the plea deal. He openly said "yes I gave drugs and alcohol to a thirteen year old girl, and when she passed out I then raped her"

I am still stunned anyone went to bat for him. I'm assuming a big part of the 90s-recent public support of him was because tons of those people were either guilty of the same kind of behavior or just assumed that's what influential Hollywood types did and it wasn't fair to punish him for it.

Devin Faraci was a big booster for Roman's innocence. Article after article by him about how he was unfairly targetted, by living in Europe and still working

Should have been a tell

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013



ImpAtom posted:

I get what you're saying but I don't think there is anything I'd like to see less than the monster of False Rape Accusations.

It’s more interesting and creates conversation other than saying nothing.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



CelticPredator posted:

It’s more interesting and creates conversation other than saying nothing.

It creates conversation by playing into the narrative that false rape accusations are any form of meaningful thing and isn't it so horrible that an innocent white man got murdered because he was accused of something he didn't do?

I'm not particularly interested in people making movies supporting horrible gross concepts in order to generate a conversation. If you make "Climate Change isn't Real" or "Maybe the Holocaust didn't happen" movies I'm going to find them foul no matter how much conversation they start.


Darko posted:

Make Freddy black then.

Edit: crap, basically just re-invented Candyman.

I was about to say, yeah, that's Candyman. Though if you had Tony Todd play Freddy I'd probably be down for anything they did because that man is a national treasure.

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013



That sure took a turn into the next lane

IShallRiseAgain
Sep 12, 2008

Well ain't that precious?



ImpAtom posted:

It creates conversation by playing into the narrative that false rape accusations are any form of meaningful thing and isn't it so horrible that an innocent white man got murdered because he was accused of something he didn't do?

I'm not particularly interested in people making movies supporting horrible gross concepts in order to generate a conversation. If you make "Climate Change isn't Real" or "Maybe the Holocaust didn't happen" movies I'm going to find them foul no matter how much conversation they start.
Even though false rape accusations are rare, they are a real thing. They shouldn't be treated as something completely non-existent. In fact, it was specifically a problem in the 80s where people were recovering repressed "memories". It was the cause of the satanic panic. All claims of rape should be seriously investigated and they are likely to be true, but that doesn't mean due process should be completely disregarded. Even if you think its completely illogical for someone to make a false accusation, humans aren't always logical creatures.

Lovely Joe Stalin
Jun 12, 2007

Our Lovely Wang


ImpAtom posted:

It creates conversation by playing into the narrative that false rape accusations are any form of meaningful thing and isn't it so horrible that an innocent white man got murdered because he was accused of something he didn't do?

I'm not particularly interested in people making movies supporting horrible gross concepts in order to generate a conversation. If you make "Climate Change isn't Real" or "Maybe the Holocaust didn't happen" movies I'm going to find them foul no matter how much conversation they start.

What the gently caress.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


IShallRiseAgain posted:

Even though false rape accusations are rare, they are a real thing. They shouldn't be treated as something completely non-existent. In fact, it was specifically a problem in the 80s where people were recovering repressed "memories". It was the cause of the satanic panic. All claims of rape should be seriously investigated and they are likely to be true, but that doesn't mean due process should be completely disregarded. Even if you think its completely illogical for someone to make a false accusation, humans aren't always logical creatures.

This is more of the thing where the chance of it being false is statistically 1/10000 or so. Sure it's a non zero number, but screaming "WHAT ABOUT FAKE RAPE CLAIMS" whenever the subject comes up is very much a MRA thing to cloud the issue rather then re-litigate the satanic panic.

sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011

Endorsed by:
Pentecoastal Elites!
fart_man_69!
Terminal autist!
Ruzihm!
Judakel!
Dixon Chisholm!
Nix Panicus!
Neurolimal!

yeeea it's a bit reductive to call Freddy's OG story 'false rape accusations' on its own. The framing of it was VERY much a reference to satanic panic where basically the irony of vigilante justice to protect kids wound up literally cursing them instead was very much the point. It really didn't matter if Freddy was a diddler or not (he was, I don't recall any movie outright framing him as innocent but rather a very in character 'well...I didn't rape THAT kid no...' kinda 'denial'), the point was that the town weren't actually acting in the interest of their kids when they decided the solution to 'that guy's a creep' was 'firebomb his creep shack'. It was a very obvious reference to a real thing and not 'poor innocent white guy'.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



IShallRiseAgain posted:

Even though false rape accusations are rare, they are a real thing. They shouldn't be treated as something completely non-existent. In fact, it was specifically a problem in the 80s where people were recovering repressed "memories". It was the cause of the satanic panic. All claims of rape should be seriously investigated and they are likely to be true, but that doesn't mean due process should be completely disregarded. Even if you think its completely illogical for someone to make a false accusation, humans aren't always logical creatures.

It isn't that they don't exist but that they are statically insignificant but constantly held up as a Real Present Danger and used to justify attacking and abusing rape victims. It doesn't need to be used as the basis for a horror movie.


sexpig by night posted:

yeeea it's a bit reductive to call Freddy's OG story 'false rape accusations' on its own. The framing of it was VERY much a reference to satanic panic where basically the irony of vigilante justice to protect kids wound up literally cursing them instead was very much the point. It really didn't matter if Freddy was a diddler or not (he was, I don't recall any movie outright framing him as innocent but rather a very in character 'well...I didn't rape THAT kid no...' kinda 'denial'), the point was that the town weren't actually acting in the interest of their kids when they decided the solution to 'that guy's a creep' was 'firebomb his creep shack'. It was a very obvious reference to a real thing and not 'poor innocent white guy'.

We were discussing the remake version. OG Freddy is what you said, yeah.

sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011

Endorsed by:
Pentecoastal Elites!
fart_man_69!
Terminal autist!
Ruzihm!
Judakel!
Dixon Chisholm!
Nix Panicus!
Neurolimal!

oh my bad I don't think I ever saw the remake so I dunno if they do something dumb there

Space Cadet Omoly
Jan 15, 2014

Hic puer est




sexpig by night posted:

oh my bad I don't think I ever saw the remake so I dunno if they do something dumb there

The remake is exactly like the original except instead of cool and terrifying practical effects they have bad looking CGI, and also there's no Robert Englund, also they make Freddy being a child molester more explicate.

Basically just take out all of the things that made the original enjoyable and replace it with bad stuff. You made the right choice never watching it.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.


It could work if the real child predator was a cop who framed Freddy.

I mean I wouldn't do that, that would be very gross, but it might work without furthering the false rape narrative too much.

emo-ignorance
Jun 11, 2020



Rooney Mara starred in the Nightmare on Elm Street remake and it almost led her to quit acting.

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013



With Original Freddy he was strictly a child killer, and the only thing implying otherwise was how sexual he’d get with his torments towards the kids. But otherwise it was something people outside the film assumed.

The remake he was strictly a pedophile without a murder under his belt. Which is very strange because of the claws.

bobkatt013
Oct 8, 2006

You’re telling me Peter Parker is ...... Spider-man!?


sexpig by night posted:

oh my bad I don't think I ever saw the remake so I dunno if they do something dumb there

Also the kids he are killing are not just the kids of the parents who killed him, but they are the kids who he molested and told on him.

inferis
Dec 30, 2003



IShallRiseAgain posted:

Even though false rape accusations are rare, they are a real thing. They shouldn't be treated as something completely non-existent. In fact, it was specifically a problem in the 80s where people were recovering repressed "memories". It was the cause of the satanic panic. All claims of rape should be seriously investigated and they are likely to be true, but that doesn't mean due process should be completely disregarded. Even if you think its completely illogical for someone to make a false accusation, humans aren't always logical creatures.

I think you chose a particularly terrible example for this, the false memory thing was mainly started by a foundation now disbanded and completely discredited. Also a former advisor for them testified for Michael Jackson and Harvey Weinstein.

Chris James 2
Aug 9, 2012



Space Cadet Omoly posted:

also there's no Robert Englund

For years I'd been under the impression a Nightmare on Elm Street remake without Englund could work. Then that remake happened and made me feel dumb for thinking that

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Predator's actually an interesting case given its premise isn't so much 'guy at the gym who's buffer than you' (especially since the Predator is vaguely feminine coded in a movie with literal Arnie and a bunch of other hulks) but a mix of 'alien who treats humans like humans treat wild game' and 'sci-fi intruder to the plot of a standard genre action movie'. The movies start to suck when they move away from that, because the interesting part isn't the Predator, it's what they do and how people react. (and why Predator crossovers work remarkably well)

inferis posted:

I think you chose a particularly terrible example for this, the false memory thing was mainly started by a foundation now disbanded and completely discredited. Also a former advisor for them testified for Michael Jackson and Harvey Weinstein.

Yeah, in retrospect the Satanic Panic looks even worse for invented accusations and scapegoats basically creating cover for the real predators.

kaworu
Jul 23, 2004



I get sort of especially get pissed off at people pointing to the whole '80s McMartin/Satanic Panic/repressed memories/etc thing constantly being thrown out as like the prime example of supposed rape victims who are full of poo poo, because I actually was raped/molested at a daycare when I was 5-6 years and didn't talk about it for about 20 years - though Satanists weren't involved as far as I can recall. And even still I kind of implicitly would agree that the concept of it was somehow totally absurd when discussing the topic.

The one documentary I can recall that actually dealt with this topic in an interesting manner was Capturing the Friedmans which is... well, I'd almost be kind of interested in what this thread thought about that documentary. Because I feel like that documentary does a pretty decent job of illustrating the horrific uncertainty when you're trying to figure out what the truth could possibly be, in a situation like that. It's kind of an interesting example because I feel like it succeeds as a mostly objective documentary in spite of the fact that the filmmaker himself was not objective and I am pretty sure held a firm belief in the innocence of Jesse Friedman - though of course Arnold Friedman is the far more darker, complex, and more interesting case presented in the film.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Hell, quite likely a lot of kids who genuinely suffered abuse were forced to blame that on a socially acceptable scapegoat rather than the actual perpetrator.

edogawa rando
Mar 20, 2007

Ya like Little Wayne?


Capturing the Friedmans did remind me a lot of the Christchurch Civic Creche case. There are some parallels, at least.

Martman
Nov 20, 2006

SEXY... defines my posts and my ride


Vagabundo posted:

Capturing the Friedmans did remind me a lot of the Christchurch Civic Creche case. There are some parallels, at least.
I've read about other similar cases, but reading about this it's just so painfully obvious that this dude being queer was a huge factor if not the entire reason for his conviction. I've always thought of that era of daycare moral panic as a kind of "random new thing of its time" but now I kinda wonder if that's really just the same poo poo that's always gone on and these cases finally started to get scrutiny around that time.

Martman fucked around with this message at 08:59 on Mar 14, 2021

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Ghost Leviathan posted:

Hell, quite likely a lot of kids who genuinely suffered abuse were forced to blame that on a socially acceptable scapegoat rather than the actual perpetrator.

There's one story from the 80s where a cop friend of the family drove the accuser around hidden under a blanket and told her to point out the houses where she was abused. Years later she admitted she just pointed at random houses to make her parents happy because they didn't believe her when she told them what really happened and were convinced she had been brainwashed by a satanic cult.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Lovely Joe Stalin posted:

What the gently caress.

I feel like they're doing a bit.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Like, 'Satanic cults' were something literally not on the radar of anything real at all, they don't exist and never did, it was one step above claiming aliens were abducting their children and driving around the neighbourhood telling them to point out the body snatchers. These people weren't connected to reality. And it set the tone for moral panics to come, where evidence was never necessary. (Of course, arguably you can trace that back to McCarthyism)

Brazilianpeanutwar
Aug 27, 2015

Spent my walletfull, on a jpeg, desolate, will croberts make a whale of me yet?


Ghost Leviathan posted:

Predator's actually an interesting case given its premise isn't so much 'guy at the gym who's buffer than you' (especially since the Predator is vaguely feminine coded in a movie with literal Arnie and a bunch of other hulks) but a mix of 'alien who treats humans like humans treat wild game' and 'sci-fi intruder to the plot of a standard genre action movie'. The movies start to suck when they move away from that, because the interesting part isn't the Predator, it's what they do and how people react. (and why Predator crossovers work remarkably

Imagine explaining predator to someone in the weeks that it came out

“Well arnie and his buds are shooting up soldiers in the jungle (very oiled up all of them by the way,flexing their big muscles for each other) and then this invisible alien with a vagina for a face and dreadlocks loving kills everyone before arnie beats it and it commits nuclear suicide”.

“Did the projectionist get the movies mixed up? Were you high?”.

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Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 3 hours!


Look, yeah, it can be frustrating if you’re one of the exceedingly rare people whose had a false rape accusation actually ruin your life. It does happen, but it absolutely does NOT happen at the frequency to suggest that making a movie that attempts to further normalize it is a good idea.

If you’re someone who unfortunately has to go through this, it absolutely sucks, it totally destroys your life and your world, and sometimes you have to just move, and in addition to that it’s an impossible story to tell. Imagine you meet a new friend, you ask them why they suddenly moved and changed careers and cities and then their eyes go kinda dark and they try to explain “well a friend of mine says I raped her and I didn’t but nobody believes me and she’s really just crazy and...” how far, exactly, do you get into this dude’s story before you think “ah it’s bullshit, you definitely assaulted someone.”

Even if they have proof! Even if they have a letter from the goddam district at tourney saying there was no assault, the case was dropped, no charges were filed, there is no evidence or even indication of evidence that a sexual assault transpired between two parties... it literally doesn’t matter. In 2021, if a normal person hears “I was accused of rape by a liar, the cops said in innocent, but my accuser went on social media and I lost my job and got kicked out of my house, she’s a liar who ruined my life”... be realistic, you’re probably siding with the victim (who you haven’t ever met) over this weirdo complaining that his life is over because this ONE time it’s TRUE actually! No one trusts men, absolutely no one trusts the police, if you even for 1 second try to suggest in an online space that the victim of an assault is lying, well you’re probably just gonna get banned, or at the minimum accused of sexism and misogyny.

The only real recourse for being ACTUALLY falsely accused of rape, in the modern era, is to just bail on your life, tbh, because even if you literally prove beyond the shadow of doubt that it is impossible for you to have assaulted the victim, the well is pretty much forever tainted and you’ll probably never have the same life (or you’ll find yourself engendered with the kind of people who actively want to call women liars and don’t think rape is real, which, c’mon, those are terrible people)

Sorry, I know this isn’t about Hollywood but all this back and forth about rape denial was very triggering for me. For clarity, I am falling squarely on the side of “you should absolutely NOT make a horror movie about false rape accusations” even though I’m in the minority for believing that they are real, but that’s only because we haven’t really had a good regular drama about them that covers all the stuff I’ve talked about here first. Until society has better groundwork for understanding what’s really going on when someone falsely accuses someone of rape, I don’t think we should try to farm something as sad and tragic as it for shock value.

Edit: there’s also a very, very strong racial element at work here, false rape accusations have been weaponized against POC men forever, but I don’t even wanna try and get into that.

Bust Rodd fucked around with this message at 11:45 on Mar 14, 2021

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