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Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.




pentyne posted:

again, this is a line of thinking that is not helpful in general, because the implication that a certain set of behavior is indicative of guilt means the reverse is true.


I never said anything like "all abusers are obvious" I just said that sometimes some abusers are really loving obvious. Like this loving rear end in a top hat.

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CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013



Once again, ninja sex party is a goofy monkey cheese name. Making sex jokes and having sex in your stage name doesn’t make you a creep.

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.




CelticPredator posted:

Once again, ninja sex party is a goofy monkey cheese name. Making sex jokes and having sex in your stage name doesn’t make you a creep.

I thought they were probably a pervert because they were involved in something called Game Grumps, the Ninja Sex Party thing just made it even more apparent.

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013



What the hell is pervy about game grumps lmao.

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




Timeless Appeal posted:

People are allowed to be in open relationships and poly no matter how they look.

That said, that's not really the issue with Middleditch. He basically told her after they already were married that he wanted an open relationship.

That's why I said "once he became famous" since there's no way he would've tried pulling it otherwise.

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.




CelticPredator posted:

What the hell is pervy about game grumps lmao.

I just assume it's people making youtube videos where they are grumpy about video games, so clearly they don't have any sort of healthy sexual outlet.

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013



Skwirl posted:

I just assume it's people making youtube videos where they are grumpy about video games, so clearly they don't have any sort of healthy sexual outlet.

This is so weird man

John Wick of Dogs
Mar 4, 2017

A real hellraiser




Skwirl posted:

I just assume it's people making youtube videos where they are grumpy about video games, so clearly they don't have any sort of healthy sexual outlet.

They just do daily let's plays where they are basically very chill and just shoot the poo poo.

Sucks to hear one of them has been grooming though, that is hosed. What also sucks, Dan was brought on after they fired another guy named JonTron, who is basically a white supremacist, and he's going to be reveling in it.

Here's a thread with context from another fan. She never had any sexual contact with Avidan, but in retrospect and with the context of the other account it felt like grooming to her.

https://twitter.com/duskspook/status/1373759396212264963?s=19

A basic pattern of contacting out responding to fan contract from girls who are "almost" 18, getting them into a pattern of making them think they are special and not like other fans, then a few years later trying to make it sexual. Same thing Nick Robinson a few years ago.

John Wick of Dogs fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Mar 22, 2021

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




JonTron happy he might no longer be the grossest person involved with Game Grumps.

kaworu
Jul 23, 2004



I think the perception of how people look an appear is actually very important and worth discussing within this context - it's something I've been thinking about since the Marilyn Manson news came out. I'd see two different reactions to that - people who thought that because of how he looked and appeared in terms of his public persona he was even more hosed up in private, and people who thought that he'd be less hosed up in private than some conventionally "normal" looking people, because he was able to deal with his weird poo poo outwardly rather than repressively - or something to that effect.

I'm not sure either point of view really has any validity or holds up, ultimately.

Seemlar
Jun 17, 2002


Skwirl posted:

Billy Baldwin, ugh.

Also, not surprising it was Robert Evans who said that, but kinda disappointing.

There was a piece in the Guardian a few years ago by an "anonymous Hollywood actress" talking about what dealing with sex scenes is like that 100% described scenes from Sliver as the negative examples. That guy must have been memorably terrible.

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours


Groovelord Neato posted:

JonTron happy he might no longer be the grossest person involved with Game Grumps.

Nah he still is lol.

Oyak
Nov 13, 2007

When I see your posting


College Slice


help somebody wanted to have sex with me at the sex club

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

King Vidiot
Feb 17, 2007

The video arcade made me what I am today!



I'm barely aware of Jontron but I know enough to know he's a piece of human poo poo. I'm really disappointed to find out Dan's a creep though, like he actually comes across as a really sweet guy and fairly progressive for "YouTube Gamer Personality".

But I'd kind of like to hear what the actual accusations even are, first.

kaworu
Jul 23, 2004



Oyak posted:

help somebody wanted to have sex with me at the sex club

Right because going to a sex club is like automatically consenting to have sex with every other patron there :rolleyes:

edit: The more I think about your clever post the more disgusted and pissed off I feel with it

kaworu fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Mar 22, 2021

Oyak
Nov 13, 2007

When I see your posting


College Slice

lol how old is the character in your avatar?

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

Colonel, there's no exposed breasts in these dark souls

kaworu posted:

I think the perception of how people look an appear is actually very important and worth discussing within this context - it's something I've been thinking about since the Marilyn Manson news came out. I'd see two different reactions to that - people who thought that because of how he looked and appeared in terms of his public persona he was even more hosed up in private, and people who thought that he'd be less hosed up in private than some conventionally "normal" looking people, because he was able to deal with his weird poo poo outwardly rather than repressively - or something to that effect.

I'm not sure either point of view really has any validity or holds up, ultimately.

I think the latter is sort of a fantasy that alternative people wish was the case but doesn’t ever really occur in practice. Typically people who live this loud and proud sexually aggressive lifestyle on the outside are exactly as hosed up as they are suggesting through their behavior, and the only time they aren’t is essentially when they haven’t yet faked it enough to work up the courage.

People like Marilyn Manson start by dressing weird and acting weird and then after enough time and enough buying into your own personality you eventually begin to act these ideas out in more private circumstances until finally the “act” is the real thing.

This is my anecdotal evidence from spending years around these kinds of people in sex clubs and stuff.

King Vidiot
Feb 17, 2007

The video arcade made me what I am today!



Ages ago I read some excerpts from Marilyn Manson's autobiography. He literally describes him and his band peeing on a fan backstage. So yeah I guess maybe we shouldn't be surprised that he's hosed up both publicly and privately? He showed you who he was on stage, he told you who he was in his book...

I wasn't really at all surprised when that news came out, except for exactly how horrible he was.

John Wick of Dogs
Mar 4, 2017

A real hellraiser




King Vidiot posted:

I'm barely aware of Jontron but I know enough to know he's a piece of human poo poo. I'm really disappointed to find out Dan's a creep though, like he actually comes across as a really sweet guy and fairly progressive for "YouTube Gamer Personality".

But I'd kind of like to hear what the actual accusations even are, first.

I saw them but didn't save the link, but I posted a tweet thread in my last post, of someone who he did but initiate sexual contact with but might have been grooming. The actual events of this story are very similar, met a girl at 17, started dm'ing with her innocently, making her feel like a special fan with a more advanced relationship with him over the course of a few years, then asked for sexual favors(in this case he had sent her video of a new tub in his house and asked her to send him a video saying she would gently caress him in that tub).

Individual elements of the story sound innocent and even the sexual favor ask is to a 22 year old with a statement saying if it isn't within her comfort zone that's fine, but you put it together with other accounts and it forms a pattern of grooming. Anyone with a level of fandom like that should not be using their fans as a dating pool in any way. That's always a relationship where you have an increased amount of power over someone who adores and doesn't want to disappoint you, because after all they are getting special treatment other fans do not.

King Vidiot
Feb 17, 2007

The video arcade made me what I am today!



:stonk:

Alright that's not ambiguous at all. That's like, Drake levels of setting up plausible deniability and setting up safe "outs" if you get called out on it later. Welp!

kaworu
Jul 23, 2004



Oyak posted:

lol how old is the character in your avatar?

That character is 31 years old, for whatever it's really worth :v:

enki42
Jun 11, 2001
#ATMLIVESMATTER

Put this Nazi-lover on ignore immediately!


Bust Rodd posted:

I think the latter is sort of a fantasy that alternative people wish was the case but doesn’t ever really occur in practice. Typically people who live this loud and proud sexually aggressive lifestyle on the outside are exactly as hosed up as they are suggesting through their behavior, and the only time they aren’t is essentially when they haven’t yet faked it enough to work up the courage.

From my experience, I can't say that's wrong, necessarily, but "has some weird sexual tastes / kinks" doesn't always align with "doesn't give a poo poo about consent". It's totally possible to be into hosed up poo poo but pursue it in a healthy way, and that describes a lot of people I know that fit the type we're talking about.

Someone said it upthread, but if we're going to talk about Marilyn Manson, Armie Hammer, and Thomas Middleditch in the same breath, it seems pretty far fetched to say that it's obvious who fits into that category based on how they look or present themselves.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




And then there's Jimmy Saville. Then again, sometimes they're kind of cheating where they're just the most obvious case of a society that doesn't actually care about rape. Hell, the way things are going to England, they're probably going to legalise it by the end of the year.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

Colonel, there's no exposed breasts in these dark souls

Ghost Leviathan posted:

And then there's Jimmy Saville. Then again, sometimes they're kind of cheating where they're just the most obvious case of a society that doesn't actually care about rape. Hell, the way things are going to England, they're probably going to legalise it by the end of the year.

Honesty the parallels between Saville & Jacko are another great example.

We, collectively, as an entire planet, watched as a man turned his palatial mansion and estate into a circus amusement park to better groom children and had poor children basically imported from all over the word so he could molest them, and because the entire planet had watched Michael grow, even as it became more and more obvious what he was up to, it also became more and more obvious just how far the denial goes. I have a POC friend who is 100% convinced that Jacko only got got because he preyed on White kids. It took us 30 years to bring down R Kelly because America just doesn’t care what happens to black women.

And I want to agree with the above poster. Having a fetish or kink for BDSM or physically intense or even violent sex is not indicative of being a creep, but IME the people who manage to “have it all”, so to speak, are the most tempered and down to earth people, and the ones who do their best to live normie lives working at a coffee shop or whatever, even if they have like face tattoos and genital piercings. These people tend to have BOUNDARIES, and good ones! These people don’t bend over backwards to turn every situation into a porno. They understand sex is about set & setting, time & place.

It’s the people who are like “I’m a kink poly play guy! My entire lifestyle is dating and sex! Welcome to my home, the sex dungeon or “Play Palace” as I call it! I have a wide variety of swings and dildos. Do you guy like to ‘play’?” that just try to turn every single encounter into some kind of sexual ordeal who pretty much always end up being true creeps or perverts.

HopperUK
Apr 29, 2007

Why would an ambulance be leaving the hospital?

I think there is a conversation to be had around which of these monsters get slapped down immediately versus which don't. Like, Kevin Spacey was booted out of public life almost instantly and I can't help feeling like the only reason it happened so fast and so thoroughly (which, GOOD) is that he preyed on at least one little boy, so he's GAY which is extra disgusting to a certain sort of person. Whereas people who prey on girls - look at how Roman Polanski still gets defended. It's repulsive.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

Colonel, there's no exposed breasts in these dark souls

Honestly I don’t think we spent enough time talking about the damage Spacey did to LGBTQ culture in America by essentially doubling down on everyone’s internalized homophobia that all gay men are pedofiles. Seriously outrageously destructive and basically pushed this fear mongering bullshit for a few more generations

HopperUK
Apr 29, 2007

Why would an ambulance be leaving the hospital?

Bust Rodd posted:

Honestly I don’t think we spent enough time talking about the damage Spacey did to LGBTQ culture in America by essentially doubling down on everyone’s internalized homophobia that all gay men are pedofiles. Seriously outrageously destructive and basically pushed this fear mongering bullshit for a few more generations

Yeah seriously, gently caress him. The fact that the whistleblower (Anthony Rapp) is also openly gay seemed to pass a lot of people by. It's so hosed up that Rapp obviously felt he had to wait until he had a decent amount of clout in the industry himself before he could say anything.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






ImpAtom posted:

I would say it is more that there is a not-coincidental connection between desire for fame/power and the kind of mindset that wants to do those sorts of things. Even if you're just talking about Youtube People it generally isn't a career you do without a specific reason, be it a desire for personal fame or for the (ugh) 'perks' that fame brings you. Combine that with years and years of media basically pressing the idea that if you become famous you can do whatever you want (which was perfectly embodied by 'guy who is famous for being famous became president') and it's no surprise that you see a lot of these things happening among 'personalities.' It kind of ends up self-selecting for abusive people. And when it doesn't you have people whose livelihood and similar addictive fame is tied to downplaying those things so they get to thrive. (As seems to be the case with GGs covering this poo poo up.)

This feels like its otherizing sexual abuse/harassment. The vast majority of women who work in the restaurant biz have been sexualy harassed. Its a figure that holds for most male dominated industries.

HopperUK
Apr 29, 2007

Why would an ambulance be leaving the hospital?

Shageletic posted:

This feels like its otherizing sexual abuse/harassment. The vast majority of women who work in the restaurant biz have been sexualy harassed. Its a figure that holds for most male dominated industries.

I've worked in retail all my working life and the most sexual harrassment I got (which was fairly minor compared with some) was working in regular supermarkets. Customers and senior staff. There's one guy in particular who was my supervisor who when I look back on it, I wish I could teleport back there and punch him in the nose. He kept it just subtle enough that I wasn't sure, and I was a young girl, and you're not supposed to make a fuss and arrrrgh. Arg. gently caress that guy.

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

HopperUK posted:

Yeah seriously, gently caress him. The fact that the whistleblower (Anthony Rapp) is also openly gay seemed to pass a lot of people by. It's so hosed up that Rapp obviously felt he had to wait until he had a decent amount of clout in the industry himself before he could say anything.

I don't think I ever realized it was Anthony Rapp who was the whistleblower on Kevin Spacey. Good for him, that can't have been easy for him to come forward.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

how few people do you
need before you can
change the world?


HopperUK posted:

I've worked in retail all my working life and the most sexual harrassment I got (which was fairly minor compared with some) was working in regular supermarkets. Customers and senior staff. There's one guy in particular who was my supervisor who when I look back on it, I wish I could teleport back there and punch him in the nose. He kept it just subtle enough that I wasn't sure, and I was a young girl, and you're not supposed to make a fuss and arrrrgh. Arg. gently caress that guy.

Track him down and punch him now, it's never too late!

HopperUK
Apr 29, 2007

Why would an ambulance be leaving the hospital?

Rhyno posted:

Track him down and punch him now, it's never too late!

If only, right?

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

how few people do you
need before you can
change the world?


HopperUK posted:

If only, right?

I believe in you!

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






HopperUK posted:

I've worked in retail all my working life and the most sexual harrassment I got (which was fairly minor compared with some) was working in regular supermarkets. Customers and senior staff. There's one guy in particular who was my supervisor who when I look back on it, I wish I could teleport back there and punch him in the nose. He kept it just subtle enough that I wasn't sure, and I was a young girl, and you're not supposed to make a fuss and arrrrgh. Arg. gently caress that guy.

I got sexually harassed by a girl co-worker who didn't have any boundaries and got creepy about knowing about my love life when I worked at Chuck E Cheese. What a loving weird job that was.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






I would be fixing a game (mostly just by reaching in and pulling jammed tickets out) and she would sidle up to me and say that she wished that was her pants. I was a virgin, and I remember thinking, is this how people start dating. But even then, I was loving skeeved out and super uncomfortable.

Space Cadet Omoly
Jan 15, 2014

Hic puer est




HopperUK posted:

I think there is a conversation to be had around which of these monsters get slapped down immediately versus which don't. Like, Kevin Spacey was booted out of public life almost instantly and I can't help feeling like the only reason it happened so fast and so thoroughly (which, GOOD) is that he preyed on at least one little boy, so he's GAY which is extra disgusting to a certain sort of person. Whereas people who prey on girls - look at how Roman Polanski still gets defended. It's repulsive.

Bryan Singer is still free and doing stuff though so preying on young boys isn't always a career killer.

I'll be honest: I have no idea why some accusations of sexual abuse can put an end to a person's career and others everyone is just cool with. There doesn't seem to be any pattern to it, the victims gender and race don't always seem to matter, the amount of victims doesn't always seem to matter, even the severity of the crimes doesn't seem to matter.

It's a total crapshoot whether the rest of society decides to care about this stuff.

Chris James 2
Aug 9, 2012



HopperUK posted:

I think there is a conversation to be had around which of these monsters get slapped down immediately versus which don't. Like, Kevin Spacey was booted out of public life almost instantly and I can't help feeling like the only reason it happened so fast and so thoroughly (which, GOOD) is that he preyed on at least one little boy, so he's GAY which is extra disgusting to a certain sort of person. Whereas people who prey on girls - look at how Roman Polanski still gets defended. It's repulsive.

I immediately think of the queer band PWR BTTM and how even though they were rightfully deplatformed essentially immediately after what came out about them came out, their labels all bailed and their discography was pulled from every streaming service. Definitely not saying that shouldn't have happened with PWR BTTM, but they're things/consequences that definitely haven't happened to straight bands accused of similar (Brand New) and hetero musicians accused of far worse (R Kelly) and it should have happened to them too

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

Colonel, there's no exposed breasts in these dark souls

I mean Brand New is totally done and all their shows are cancelled and you usually get asked to leave or change clothes if you wear a Brand New shirt to Emo nights across the country so I don't really know what else there is. Jesse gave a bad apology tweet and as far i know hasn't surfaced since the accusations went public.

But I'm not being argumentative, I agree with your greater point that the gay band was vilified to a much greater degree, which i think is maybe a reflection of having a queerer fan base, or perhaps a woker fan base? Brand New's albums (and most emo music) is completely entrenched in a form of toxic masculinity that basically paints women as the cause of and solution to all problems. There are a lot of absolutely terrible attitudes about women that are, like, fundamental to what a lot of these records are saying. not all of them, but, like a lot. PWRBTM, by contrast, has a lot more younger LGBTQ friendly folks, which means the dialogue about this sort of thing isn't as stunted, IMO, which is why its easier to gain traction.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Shageletic posted:

This feels like its otherizing sexual abuse/harassment. The vast majority of women who work in the restaurant biz have been sexualy harassed. Its a figure that holds for most male dominated industries.

I am not implying this is only a famous people problem. Situations where people feel like they are free from consequences (either due to being employed by someone or as a customer who is, of course, 'always right') are also ripe for this behavior. It's the freedom (or perceived freedom) from consequences that means they have to 'stop pretending.'

Space Cadet Omoly posted:

Bryan Singer is still free and doing stuff though so preying on young boys isn't always a career killer.

I'll be honest: I have no idea why some accusations of sexual abuse can put an end to a person's career and others everyone is just cool with. There doesn't seem to be any pattern to it, the victims gender and race don't always seem to matter, the amount of victims doesn't always seem to matter, even the severity of the crimes doesn't seem to matter.

It's a total crapshoot whether the rest of society decides to care about this stuff.

I think it comes down to how easy it is for people to find a way to defend it or ignore it. Kevin Spacey fell into the right gap where he couldn't get either and honestly I'd put even odds on him getting a Miraculous Revival in five years.

ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Mar 23, 2021

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Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.




Kevin Spacey is on the loving Epstein flight logs with Bill Clinton flying to Africa. What we know about him and what he actually did are two very, very different things and I think the reason he got caught was because he committed so many different horrible crimes he was basically just guaranteed to get caught for at least one of them

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